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Old 09-13-2018, 12:41 PM
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Pleonast Pleonast is offline
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Building peace between the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea

Seventy years since the expiration of the British Mandate, we still have only wars and preparations for war. No one seems to be building peace. Neither Jews, nor Muslims, nor Christians, nor states within or without the area are doing anything to make peace come sooner. I wish I were wrong and will gladly hear counterexamples of how anybody is working towards peace.

I don't care who's waging war. I don't care who's sabotaging peace. Tell me who is actively building peace today and how.
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:41 PM
senoy senoy is offline
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Originally Posted by Pleonast View Post
Seventy years since the expiration of the British Mandate, we still have only wars and preparations for war. No one seems to be building peace. Neither Jews, nor Muslims, nor Christians, nor states within or without the area are doing anything to make peace come sooner. I wish I were wrong and will gladly hear counterexamples of how anybody is working towards peace.

I don't care who's waging war. I don't care who's sabotaging peace. Tell me who is actively building peace today and how.
Christians have done a lot. They did the smartest thing that anyone could do to ensure peace in Israel and Palestine. They picked up and moved.
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Old 09-13-2018, 02:15 PM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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The real issue is one of incentives. The leadership on neither side has any incentive to really pursue compromise because their respective political base would punish them for it. It would take a transformative leader on both sides to change the equation and that, my friends, is a rare thing.
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Old 09-13-2018, 02:22 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Tell me who is actively building peace today and how.
Well, here's a 2014 list of several groups so described.
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:47 PM
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Thanks for the replies.

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Originally Posted by senoy View Post
Christians have done a lot. They did the smartest thing that anyone could do to ensure peace in Israel and Palestine. They picked up and moved.
A wise person once said flying is throwing yourself at the ground and missing. But what are they doing now?

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The real issue is one of incentives. The leadership on neither side has any incentive to really pursue compromise because their respective political base would punish them for it. It would take a transformative leader on both sides to change the equation and that, my friends, is a rare thing.
True, and it incriminates the respective political bases as much as their leaders. But I don't want to hear about why they're failing.

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Well, here's a 2014 list of several groups so described.
Thank you. Some small glimmers of hope.

"If there is to be any hope at all of achieving peace, then it will only grow from the efforts of these courageous initiatives that continue to promote peace, nonviolence, equality, human rights, and human dignity."
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:28 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is online now
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The ones making peace are the ones relativizing and minimizing their own religion to make way for others to share the world. Those religious self-relativizers and self-minimizers each deserve far more medals and recognition than the people who end up actually receiving those.
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:40 PM
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The way to make peace is to not attack or kill anyone today. And then tomorrow, do it again. The majority of people on both sides in that land are doing that. It's just that it doesn't take very many who aren't to ruin it for the rest.
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:53 PM
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Just finished Sum of All Fears (book), so according to Clancy that should not be so hard unless someone found some misplaced nuclear weapon.

Back to the RL. It is clustersuck no one sane would dare to poke it with a looong stick. But still looks like everyones favorite hobby for 4000y or so.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:29 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is online now
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The way to make peace is to not attack or kill anyone today. And then tomorrow, do it again. The majority of people on both sides in that land are doing that. It's just that it doesn't take very many who aren't to ruin it for the rest.
When those who don't attack, decide to elect those who will, they are simply attacking by proxy.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:49 PM
senoy senoy is offline
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A wise person once said flying is throwing yourself at the ground and missing. But what are they doing now?
Palestinian Christians tended to be wealthier than other Palestinians and had more social and economic contacts throughout Christendom. So to answer your question, they are mostly living in Europe and the US as second and third generation immigrants who are doing the same thing all the rest of us in western Christendom are doing. Probably Instagramming and watching America's Got Talent. Maybe watching some sports ball on the tube.
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:42 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is online now
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Putting my tortured syntax into a more readable form:

When supposedly non-violent people choose representatives who favour violence, then the majority are violent people, but are in denial about it.

Peace will be when peaceful people command the armies and run the governments, and not before then.
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:21 AM
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I don't care who's waging war. I don't care who's sabotaging peace. Tell me who is actively building peace today and how.
People have been waging war there since the dawn of time.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:08 AM
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People have been waging war everywhere since the dawn if time.
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
The way to make peace is to not attack or kill anyone today. And then tomorrow, do it again. The majority of people on both sides in that land are doing that. It's just that it doesn't take very many who aren't to ruin it for the rest.
There's a large overlap between "times when people aren't being killed" and "peace", but I don't think they're the same. There could be no killing, yet if people are in fear of attack and have to make accommodations in their lives because of that fear, then that is not peace. Alternatively, small groups could be killing people, but if there is no escalation nor fear of escalation, then that is peace.

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People have been waging war there since the dawn of time.
And people have been building peace for just as long. This thread is about them, not those who war.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:26 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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And people have been building peace for just as long. This thread is about them, not those who war.
While it's strongly contested whether or not it counts as "building peace", I think the wider Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement has to be at least considered in this context because of its focus on nonviolent means to exert economic and public-relations pressure, rather than violent resistance or terrorism.
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:45 PM
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While it's strongly contested whether or not it counts as "building peace", I think the wider Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement has to be at least considered in this context because of its focus on nonviolent means to exert economic and public-relations pressure, rather than violent resistance or terrorism.
Their methods may be peaceful, but it's arguable whether peace is their ultimate aim - BDS opposes a two-state solution for Israel and the Palestinians.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:58 PM
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BDS opposes a two-state solution for Israel and the Palestinians.
I haven't been able to find an official BDS position on the number(s) of sovereign states that they would accept as part of the achievement of their goals. (As a movement, BDS isn't entirely monolithic, which further confuses the issue.) Those goals are, AFAICT, the ending of the occupation of the territories, the removal of the separation border, full equality for Jewish and non-Jewish Israelis, and Palestinian refugee right of return. AFAICT those conditions could exist in the context of either two separate sovereign states, or a single bi-national state, or a single-state democracy without official categories for Jews and Palestinians as national entities.

To what extent any of those hypothetical contexts and/or any of the specified BDS aims is realistically possible, of course, is another matter. So again, it's hard to see where this fits in the category of "building peace" per se.
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:48 PM
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I's the very nebulousness of their goals that lets them claim that they're in favor of whatever the listener wants them to be in favor of. The only thing we know for sure about BDS is that they don't like Israel. Disliking Israel may be a commonly-held belief, but it is not a belief that in and of itself has contributed much to the cause of peace.

Peace means compromise. You can't get everything you want and still have peace.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:03 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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The only thing we know for sure about BDS is that they don't like Israel.
They seem to be pretty consistent about not liking Palestinian suffering. I would never claim that there is no anti-Semitism whatever in the BDS movement (or in pretty much anything else, for that matter), but I think it's unfair to insinuate that they have no genuine concern for Palestinian rights.

However, none of this is specifically addressing the OP's question about who is building peace.
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Old 09-14-2018, 11:33 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is online now
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The same thing needs to happen there that happened in Northern Ireland. The fight in Northern Ireland between the Catholics and the Protestants never went away - Catholicism and Protestantism (as significant components of people's lives) went away.

When Judaism and Islam have essentially disappeared from the area in question, there will be room for peace. Currently, religious demands from both sides are what is really stalling the process. If you don't believe me, go and offer to the Israelis a new luxurious and much more spacious area of prime land to call home, remote from their current location. Offer the state 10 billion dollars a year in compensation. They won't go.
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Old 09-15-2018, 02:26 AM
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The same thing needs to happen there that happened in Northern Ireland. The fight in Northern Ireland between the Catholics and the Protestants never went away - Catholicism and Protestantism (as significant components of people's lives) went away.

When Judaism and Islam have essentially disappeared from the area in question, there will be room for peace. Currently, religious demands from both sides are what is really stalling the process. If you don't believe me, go and offer to the Israelis a new luxurious and much more spacious area of prime land to call home, remote from their current location. Offer the state 10 billion dollars a year in compensation. They won't go.
Of course we wouldn't - we've put a lot of time and effort in this place, and managed to turn it into a pretty awesome country. We're not going to start again from scratch.

But as usual, you're overstating the importance of religion to the conflict. Remember, Israel was founded by atheist Jews, and many Palestinian leaders have been Christians. The conflict is about nationalism, not religion (although I agree that it would be nice if religion stopped butting in and making things worse).
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Old 09-15-2018, 02:28 AM
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They seem to be pretty consistent about not liking Palestinian suffering. I would never claim that there is no anti-Semitism whatever in the BDS movement (or in pretty much anything else, for that matter), but I think it's unfair to insinuate that they have no genuine concern for Palestinian rights.

However, none of this is specifically addressing the OP's question about who is building peace.
They may have concerns, but they don't offer any solution more constructive than "fuck Israel".

But I agree. We're digressing.
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