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  #51  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MaxTheVool View Post
(And if a goal in stoppage time offends you, then blame FIFA and the ref for not just blowing the whistle at 90 minutes even, as the commentators I was listening to seemed to expect.)
I must address this. You simply CANNOT do this. As the referee, you are obligated to make sure that 90 min. are played. Added time for stoppages (substitutions, mostly) cannot be ignored just because you want to end a game under some sort of mercy rule.

As for what the American women did, my respect for them drops. There's no need for what they did. Period. It was nothing other than a calculated attempt to intimidate future opponents, and classy teams don't need to score 13 to do that.
  #52  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:44 AM
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Just a few months ago Aston Villa, fighting for promotion to the EPL, allowed another team to score after they had scored a dubious goal. Getting to the EPL means tens of millions to a club, maybe hundreds. And they risked that, to do the right thing. Show me one NBA player who has ever missed foul shots on purpose, or a QB throwing an INT on purpose in a similar situation.
Brett Favre allowed Michael Strahan to get a sack on him to set the record for sacks. It did not impact the outcome of the game.
  #53  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:51 AM
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Brett Favre allowed Michael Strahan to get a sack on him to set the record for sacks. It did not impact the outcome of the game.
This is an example of very poor sportsmanship on Favre's part, IMO. Big old middle finger to Mark Gastineau.
  #54  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:52 AM
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Brett Favre allowed Michael Strahan to get a sack on him to set the record for sacks. It did not impact the outcome of the game.
that was one guy doing a solid for another guy. He did not allow the sack as a courtesy for a previous roughing the passer call that he thought was invalid, to make back the yardage lost.

And the diving in soccer gets a bad rap, as though in other sports there are opportunities to do something similar, and they take they high road.

In baseball, the only real contact between opposing players is baserunning, and nothing in the sport analogous to diving comes into play.

In basketball, you have your flopping, which can backfire if you flop, don't get the call and your man drives by you and scores.

In football, if you are a DB and feel the WR has committed offensive PI and you fall down, you run the risk of not getting the call and your man blowing by you and scoring.

In both football and basketball, it is just as common as in soccer during a player confrontation for one player to pretend the opponent hit them, or hit them harder than it appeared, to get the opponent penalized, same as soccer.

With soccer diving, it is almost always a player has lost control of the ball or otherwise knows he will not score or retain possession and thus dives, other sports do not really have similar scenarios to adequately compare to.

And soccer divers are not lauded or put on a pedestal, they are subject to ridicule and shame from players and fans alike when they do, and the reputations of the known divers definitely drops as a result.

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 06-12-2019 at 11:54 AM.
  #55  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmut Doork View Post
Just a few months ago Aston Villa, fighting for promotion to the EPL, allowed another team to score after they had scored a dubious goal. Getting to the EPL means tens of millions to a club, maybe hundreds. And they risked that, to do the right thing. Show me one NBA player who has ever missed foul shots on purpose, or a QB throwing an INT on purpose in a similar situation.
It was Leeds, not Villa that allowed the goal. (They pretty much had a minuscule chance of not finishing in position 3-6 to qualify for playoffs but not getting automatic promotion as the gaps between them and the 2nd placed team and the 7th placed team were both high enough to be practically ironclad.) It's virtually guaranteed they would not have showed such sportsmanship had the incident happened in one of their play-off games v Derby.

Any attempt for USA women not to play their best game would be an insult to the Thai women. If USA could have got 20 but they dialled back to "only" get 13 then that "low" score also would be an insult.

If football counted down and stopped the clock like American sports, would you also say that teams should not score in the last 4 minutes if they are a few goals ahead, because that's functionally identical.

Last edited by Mr Shine; 06-12-2019 at 12:20 PM.
  #56  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:30 PM
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Ok. Then the question is whether or not there are customs on how you conduct yourself when doing so. That's going to be a slippery standard, of course. But (to again reference baseball, which I know more about), while you have a clear "rule" that you don't steal bases when you're up big, no one expects the batters to just strike out intentionally. But if you hit a home run, excessive celebration is going to be ill-received (of course, it can also be ill-received even in a close game, like I said, it's a slippery standard).

I'm genuinely curious about the customs of the sport. There is something that feels un-sporting (un-dignified) about celebrating a rout. But different sports have different standards.
The celebrations for the goals in this game were not excessive with the possible exception of Rapinoe on the 9th. None of the rest were remotely over the top.
  #57  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:42 PM
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It was Leeds, not Villa that allowed the goal. (They pretty much had a minuscule chance of not finishing in position 3-6 to qualify for playoffs but not getting automatic promotion as the gaps between them and the 2nd placed team and the 7th placed team were both high enough to be practically ironclad.) It's virtually guaranteed they would not have showed such sportsmanship had the incident happened in one of their play-off games v Derby.

Any attempt for USA women not to play their best game would be an insult to the Thai women. If USA could have got 20 but they dialled back to "only" get 13 then that "low" score also would be an insult.

If football counted down and stopped the clock like American sports, would you also say that teams should not score in the last 4 minutes if they are a few goals ahead, because that's functionally identical.
Leeds, thanks

I have no problem with 12-0. I agree playing keepaway and having the Thai women run around in vain trying to steal the ball would be more embarrassing to them than 12-0.

And American football teams usually try and not score when up very big, very late, its normally run three times up the middle.

Basketball you have the shot clock so they at least will put up a shot, but generally aren't running detailed plays if up 30 in the last minute, and definitely on the final possession with the clock off, you do not shoot, ever, college or pro- your own coach will ream you if you do, usually.

Baseball affects personal stats and in relation a players money, so not a good comparison.

You obviously know soccer, so you know in England and others, even in the league, anything from the title to relegation to a place in Europe can, in theory, come down to goal differential- this year the title could have been decided by it had there been odd scores the last week. So a goal when up 3-0 in the 94th of week one could actually matter greatly, to the tune of millions of dollars. Yet you very rarely see a team try to score in stoppage time when up by 3, let alone 12. Passing out the game is not seen as disrespectful in the late minutes, either regular time or stoppage.

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 06-12-2019 at 12:43 PM.
  #58  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:56 PM
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How many times have leagues come down to goal differential? In the 2018 WC, it affected 3 groups. In the 2015 WWC, it affected 3 groups and all 4 of the 3rd place rankings. Goal differential is vastly vastly more important in a knock out tournament than in a league.

You're ok with 12-0, but not with Carli Lloyd scoring a goal in her last WC?

Keepaway would be more embarrassing, but they still shouldn't score? Pass around until you're completely unmarked 10 yards out, but then not shoot? Just take the L. They weren't disrespectful at all and can hold their heads high.
  #59  
Old 06-12-2019, 01:11 PM
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How many times have leagues come down to goal differential? In the 2018 WC, it affected 3 groups. In the 2015 WWC, it affected 3 groups and all 4 of the 3rd place rankings. Goal differential is vastly vastly more important in a knock out tournament than in a league.
Do you really believe in a group with Chile and Thailand, the US has a chance in a billion at not advancing, and that GD will be required? Chile has as much chance at getting a result vs. the US as Thailand did. Anything can happen in the Men's World Cup because all of the teams there are of a minimum quality- Thailand has no business on the same field as top women's teams, and is only there as FIFA wants to make the women's a true world's cup as well.

GD absolutely could matter in deciding first with Sweden, but as you know, depending on how other results go, the US may actually prefer to play the team they would play if second vs. first, so there is a possibility they will regret the excessive goal differential- a very good chance, happens all the time.
  #60  
Old 06-12-2019, 01:24 PM
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And American football teams usually try and not score when up very big, very late, its normally run three times up the middle.
That has nothing to do with sportsmanship. They're purposely trying to burn the clock to prevent the other team from scoring. Going to pass or trying to score would just give the other team a better chance.
  #61  
Old 06-12-2019, 01:40 PM
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That has nothing to do with sportsmanship. They're purposely trying to burn the clock to prevent the other team from scoring. Going to pass or trying to score would just give the other team a better chance.
I said up big, late in the game- say up 30 with four to go, on the opponents 20. Zero chance at a comeback. You call run plays up the middle as these are the easiest to stop, especially when you know they're coming, in hopes they will stop you and you don't score again. Most teams will eschew field goals in these situations as that close it would be a 95% chance at more points, versus a run on fourth that should be stopped and result in no more points.

Late in the game, outcome still in the air, different story.
  #62  
Old 06-12-2019, 01:56 PM
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Do you really believe in a group with Chile and Thailand, the US has a chance in a billion at not advancing, and that GD will be required? Chile has as much chance at getting a result vs. the US as Thailand did. Anything can happen in the Men's World Cup because all of the teams there are of a minimum quality- Thailand has no business on the same field as top women's teams, and is only there as FIFA wants to make the women's a true world's cup as well.
Since you apparently have a hard time understanding, I'll say it slowly.

First - place - is - better - than - second -place.

Will the US need GD to make top 2? No. Will they need it to win the group? Maybe. Winning the group gives them a better chance at winning the whole thing.

How should they have played, in your mind? You already said keepaway is insulting. They weren't aggressively going into tackles or gegenpressing. If Thailand basically lets you take free shots from 12 yards out, and you don't, how is that different than keepaway?

I'm done with this argument. It's just ignoring reality.
  #63  
Old 06-12-2019, 02:02 PM
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I don't even think anyone cared that Australia beat American Samoa 31-0.
Some of us cared very much, those boomerang slingers will rue the day. We are just biding our time but our revenge will be savage.
  #64  
Old 06-12-2019, 02:12 PM
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Would love to see France or England stomp them now, just for this.
Oh, please! If you stink that bad, you shouldn't be on the field. This is the freaking World Cup, not a children's league.
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  #65  
Old 06-12-2019, 02:23 PM
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Snarky_Kong,

You either don't read, or don't comprehend, or don't know soccer- you are one million percent wrong regardless.

To put it in simple terms, we do not know how the rest of the first round will go, so we do not know who the US would play if first, vs. who they would play if they finished second.

Not the draw, but as an example, lets say the second place team in the US group is slated to play the first place team in a group where the top two teams are France and Guam. The first place team in the US group plays the second place team, France or Guam. Now, everyone would expect France to be first, Guam second, and the US would want to finish first to play Guam in the next round, as they have a better chance at beating Guam vs. France.

Follow so far?

Then let's say something unusual (but far from uncommon) happens, and France has a bad week, and finished second, Guam first. Would the US really, in this case, want to have finished first in their group, when that means now they will have to play France, when, if they had finished second, they would play Guam?

I would link dozens of cites where this exact type thing has happened, and there has been a big hullabaloo about team "trying to lose" to face a more advantageous opponent in the next round, but I don't think it would help. Actually at least once per major tournament its a talking point.

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 06-12-2019 at 02:24 PM.
  #66  
Old 06-12-2019, 02:36 PM
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not long ago in Olympics badminton there was a situation where people tried to blatantly lose a game to get better seeding. I believe the outcome of that was the people got kicked out of the Olympic tourney.
  #67  
Old 06-12-2019, 02:37 PM
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Since you apparently have a hard time understanding, I'll say it slowly.

First - place - is - better - than - second -place.

Will the US need GD to make top 2? No. Will they need it to win the group? Maybe. Winning the group gives them a better chance at winning the whole thing.

How should they have played, in your mind? You already said keepaway is insulting. They weren't aggressively going into tackles or gegenpressing. If Thailand basically lets you take free shots from 12 yards out, and you don't, how is that different than keepaway?

I'm done with this argument. It's just ignoring reality.
I said three to four times upthread, I am fine with 12-0. I vehemently disagree with 13-0, as the last goal came in stoppage time when teams routinely stop going for goal when up by at least three, regardless of team, regardless of type match.
  #68  
Old 06-12-2019, 02:38 PM
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...To put it in simple terms, we do not know how the rest of the first round will go, so we do not know who the US would play if first, vs. who they would play if they finished second....
Are you arguing that in any random group, it is equally likely that the 2nd place team will be better than the 1st place? I hope not, because it's an asinine argument.

So if we assume the 1st place team is more likely to be better than the 2nd place, saying but we just don't know is ridiculous. Sure, maybe there's an exception in this case. But until you do know, you play like the 1st place team will be better.

I honestly don't understand why you continue to dig on this. My first reaction when I saw the score was "well, that was rude." But once I considered how seeding works in the tournament, I changed my opinion. There's no shame in that.
  #69  
Old 06-12-2019, 02:44 PM
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Most (all?) sports have certain unwritten "rules" that apply in these sorts of situations. We all know, for example, that in baseball you're not supposed to steal bases (among other things) if you're leading big late in the game. In high school football, it seems like every season there's a story or two about a league or school punishing a coach for running up the score. I understand that running up the score is viewed as inappropriate in many other sports (and perfectly appropriate in some). It seems like it's a constant debate over whether or not running up the score (or, more generally, the proper behavior when you're leading by a large margin) is "ethical" or "professional" in men's sports.
Those who bleat about "running up the score" are mostly the losing side's coaches (motivated largely by job security concerns), ninnies in the reporter/commentator set and some fans of the losing team. The players (who supposedly are being "humiliated") don't generally seem to care.

As long as you're giving substitutes a chance to play, let 'em play hard and enjoy themselves, never mind the "unwritten rules". Stopping games when one team is deemed too far ahead just denies players a chance to get on the field.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 06-12-2019 at 02:44 PM.
  #70  
Old 06-12-2019, 02:45 PM
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Are you arguing that in any random group, it is equally likely that the 2nd place team will be better than the 1st place? I hope not, because it's an asinine argument.

So if we assume the 1st place team is more likely to be better than the 2nd place, saying but we just don't know is ridiculous. Sure, maybe there's an exception in this case. But until you do know, you play like the 1st place team will be better.

I honestly don't understand why you continue to dig on this. My first reaction when I saw the score was "well, that was rude." But once I considered how seeding works in the tournament, I changed my opinion. There's no shame in that.
well if you watch soccer once every four years, you wouldn't get it.

To keep from embarrassing yourself further to those in the know, I wont do your work for you, google any combination of soccer, cup, lose, purpose.

Ok, I'll give you one, would love for you to read, and try and refute. No apology necessary when you realize you are wrong, it happens.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...out/734919002/
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:57 PM
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And I said nothing of the sort, that a first place team should not in general be expected to be better than a second place team, or that any team after game one in a cup tourney should be looking to finish second with the expected outcome that an inferior team will finish first in another, that would be asinine, agree.

I said depending on the outcomes of other games, the US MAY regret this act of poor sportsmanship, IF it turned out a more favorable opponent would have fallen to them had they not gone for goal differential in this game, and finish first as a result- THAT would be funny.
  #72  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:12 PM
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Snarky_Kong,

You either don't read, or don't comprehend, or don't know soccer- you are one million percent wrong regardless.

To put it in simple terms, [I]we do not know how the rest of the first round will go, so we do not know who the US
... Are you more likely to play a better team if you finish first or finish second?

You and I and everyone else knows the answer to that.
  #73  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:20 PM
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well if you watch soccer once every four years, you wouldn't get it.

To keep from embarrassing yourself further to those in the know, I wont do your work for you, google any combination of soccer, cup, lose, purpose.

Ok, I'll give you one, would love for you to read, and try and refute. No apology necessary when you realize you are wrong, it happens.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...out/734919002/
Ah yes, as we all know, counterexamples prove that probability is bullshit.
  #74  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:24 PM
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Jeez, here is my quote that you are not getting-

GD absolutely could matter in deciding first with Sweden, but as you know, depending on how other results go, the US may actually prefer to play the team they would play if second vs. first, so there is a possibility they will regret the excessive goal differential- a very good chance, happens all the time.

Nowhere does this state or imply that a second place team normally would be better than a first place team.

Nowhere does it state a team should be expecting wonky results in other brackets, and therefore try for second, with the expectation there will be upsets and they want to be in second when the upsets come.

The *only* thing it says is, The US chose goal differential over class. And that I think it would be funny, ironic, poetic justice, etc. IF the US wins the group due solely to goal differential, IF other groups don't go as planned, and the US as a result plays a harder opponent in the next round, due to their lack of class. Hoping other groups don't play out as expected and their lack of class actually hurts them, not helps.

Not saying its likely, not saying it will happen, just fingers crossed.
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Old 06-12-2019, 03:27 PM
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Ah yes, as we all know, counterexamples prove that probability is bullshit.
Again, no one was talking likelihood, probability, any of that, I merely said I *hope* other groups don't go as planned and that the US suffers for finishing first, as punishment for their lack of good sportsmanship, nothing else stated or implied.

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 06-12-2019 at 03:27 PM.
  #76  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:38 PM
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All I know from watching soccer my whole life it is a common practice to not try and score in stoppage when you are up by 3
That's just not true. Most matches are league matches, and GD is important.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:41 PM
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I rarely come to the Game Room but thought this would be... interesting (I wasn't disappointed).

I have two kids who got their college paid for by playing D1 soccer (one men's, one women's), and know a few of their friends who are currently playing professionally. Pulling back and/or playing possession (term used more often than "keep away" but the same thing) gets less and less common the higher level you go, and I don't think I've ever seen it in a big tournament where goal differential can decide a winner unless they cap the differential at 4 or something. This is the World Cup... it doesn't get any higher level than this.

They did absolutely nothing wrong. They were continuing to play their best and not get out of the groove as you would want a team to do in a tournament like this.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:00 PM
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7/4/18 Women's Soccer. Thailand 11, Cambodia 0
5/27/18 Women's Soccer, Thailand 13, Indonesia 0

I can't imagine they're particularly concerned about blowouts.
  #79  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:50 PM
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Nobody gave Germany shit for beating Saudi Arabia 7-0 in 2002.
8-0.

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During Germany's famous 7-1 crushing of Brazil in the 2014 men's World Cup, the Germans purposefully dialed down their attack in the second half and also celebrated much less. That was a knockout game, not group stage, but yes there was more sportsmanship there.
Eh, Hummels said that part about dialing back later, but I dunno...Germany was still taking good shots in the second half.

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89th, 90th minute is gray area. All I know from watching soccer my whole life it is a common practice to not try and score in stoppage when you are up by 3, let alone 12.
That is so badly untrue that I wonder if you have ever watched league play.
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:10 PM
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An example I'll give is with a game my daughter was playing for an ECNL club and we got way up (4 or 5 to 0) and we started to play possession. After a while we suddenly turned it back on and started scoring again. We (parents) were a bit confused and we ended up with a huge to nothing win. After the game our coach told us that the other team's coach came over to him and said he would rather have his girls learn to play against a better team than to be embarrassed by a team that obviously wasn't trying.
  #81  
Old 06-12-2019, 10:17 PM
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I said three to four times upthread, I am fine with 12-0. I vehemently disagree with 13-0, as the last goal came in stoppage time when teams routinely stop going for goal when up by at least three,
You keep saying this. It isn't true. When GD is potentially very important, teams will keep trying to score. The "12 goal lead is OK, while the 13 goal lead is beyond the pale" idea is pretty strange. Not sure why stoppage time is relevant at all. You play until the end.

The US should beat Chile. Easily. But you know that they will. No one does. Upsets happen. And if the US starts playing games with the expectation of future wins, that will get them in trouble. They have do everything within the laws of the game and the tournament rules to increase they're chances of winning. Anything less would be more disgraceful than scoring #13 in stoppage time.\\

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The *only* thing it says is, The US chose goal differential over class.
As they should. They're trying to win the tournament.

Are the Thai players complaining? Coaches? The Thai press? The Thai people?
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:57 PM
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I said three to four times upthread, I am fine with 12-0. I vehemently disagree with 13-0, as the last goal came in stoppage time when teams routinely stop going for goal when up by at least three, regardless of team, regardless of type match.
I absolutely disagree with this... every team I've been involved with and every coach I know will back me up that stoppage time is game time. No difference... no change in game play. I have no idea where you are coming up with this. I've seen many games lost in stoppage... should the winners have not tried during this time?
  #83  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:10 AM
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I guess no major sports have a mercy type rule. Usually that happens for some sports at the college level or younger kids , at least in the US . This year the NCAA softball tourney had some games end early due to the mercy rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_rule
The mercy rule should have been no stoppage time. The refs need to be censured, or at the very least told that that kind of lack of awareness needs to not happen.

No blame at all on either team.
  #84  
Old 06-13-2019, 10:08 AM
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the idea that the ref decides how many extra minutes to play is stupid. Don't think other major sports with a timer do that . But then again I'm an American and this is the "perfect" game so it will never change.
  #85  
Old 06-13-2019, 11:46 AM
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Am I being whooshed here?

This is the group stage, where goal differential matters. Sorry, but every. last. goal. is precious beyond measure at this stage, especially in the opener. If this were the third game in group play, and the USA was mathematically eliminated, I could potentially see a problem with "running up the score." Similarly, if this were the knockout stage, "running up the score" like this could be seen as untoward. But in this particular game at this particular stage of the tournament? They likely won't need those 13 goals, but why take the chance?
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:27 PM
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Am I being whooshed here?

This is the group stage, where goal differential matters. Sorry, but every. last. goal. is precious beyond measure at this stage, especially in the opener. If this were the third game in group play, and the USA was mathematically eliminated, I could potentially see a problem with "running up the score." Similarly, if this were the knockout stage, "running up the score" like this could be seen as untoward. But in this particular game at this particular stage of the tournament? They likely won't need those 13 goals, but why take the chance?
The US is the favorite to win the whole thing 2-1 odds, second best 7-2 I think. Worst case scenario for them if they won 5-0 is they tie Sweden and finish second on GD, in which case I think they would play Canada or Holland instead of probably Spain. I think. The US would be a heavy favorite against any of the three. The three are similar in quality and have odds to win at 25-1, 30-1 and 40-1, respectively.

This is not some marginal team fighting to get out of the group. They could not show up for the next two games and would likely advance on three points as a third place team.

The notion they needed to do this to ensure a place in the knockout round is nonsense- they will be heavily favored over their next opponent, first or second. So, show some class, and respect for fellow human beings, whose only crime is not being as good at soccer as you. The only valid celebrations were those scoring their first ever WC goal. The celebrations by the veterans were shameful and embarrassing- you are literally the biggest kid on the block, and not only are you beating up by far the weakest, you are running around acting like its a big accomplishment. Save the bullshit choreographed routines for when you score against a worthy opponent.

Morgan has already won the prestigious Golden Boot award for top scorer in the tourney, probably if she doesn't even score again, so that's kind of bullshit as well- no other top players will get the chance to pad their stats against the worst team in the tourney, by far.

I would get zero excitement beating another person at any discipline in which I am their overwhelming superior, especially if I had been there before. Rapinoe should be ashamed. From a player perspective, the angelic Hope Solo agrees the celebrations by the senior team members were embarrassing, as have many many others, so this not exactly a novel opinion.

So yes, it can be argued that this scoreline probably ensures them a next round game against a slightly worse opponent, but still one way beneath them. But personally, if a choice between the two I would choose class and basic human decency every time.

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 06-13-2019 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:33 PM
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Meanwhile, Australia vs. Brazil is definitely the match of the tournament so far....

SPOILER:

Brazil started up 2-0, Australia gets one back in first half stoppage time to gain some momentum back, and is now up 3-2 in the second half, including a very odd own-goal with an Australian player pressuring the ball, but not touching it, and she was offsides, but apparently because the Brazilian player was actively tryign to play the ball, the own-goal counts. Or something. Can't say I totally understand the ruling.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:39 PM
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So yes, it can be argued that this scoreline probably ensures them a next round game against a slightly worse opponent, but still one way beneath them. But personally, if a choice between the two I would choose class and basic human decency every time.
I think this is a FAR more insulting "ugly American" type attitude than running up the score vs. Thailand. You seem to be saying that all the other teams in the tournament are so inferior to the USA, and so interchangeable, that we can just ignore tournament seeding entirely. Really, the arrogant thing would be to NOT run up the score when possible. "Yeah, we could do everything we can to ensure the top seed coming out of the group. But, eh, who cares."

And while I can see an argument that some of the USA's celebration was a bit tacky, there's a LONG step from "a bit tacky" to lacking "basic human decency".
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:43 PM
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Meanwhile, Australia vs. Brazil is definitely the match of the tournament so far....

SPOILER:

Brazil started up 2-0, Australia gets one back in first half stoppage time to gain some momentum back, and is now up 3-2 in the second half, including a very odd own-goal with an Australian player pressuring the ball, but not touching it, and she was offsides, but apparently because the Brazilian player was actively tryign to play the ball, the own-goal counts. Or something. Can't say I totally understand the ruling.
Interesting. I'll be curious to see a highlight later. VAR didn't give a penalty in the US-Thailand game that seemed obvious and the explanation didn't make sense.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:52 PM
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I think this is a FAR more insulting "ugly American" type attitude than running up the score vs. Thailand. You seem to be saying that all the other teams in the tournament are so inferior to the USA, and so interchangeable, that we can just ignore tournament seeding entirely. Really, the arrogant thing would be to NOT run up the score when possible. "Yeah, we could do everything we can to ensure the top seed coming out of the group. But, eh, who cares."

And while I can see an argument that some of the USA's celebration was a bit tacky, there's a LONG step from "a bit tacky" to lacking "basic human decency".
What can happen in theory and reality are two completely different things. Germany men could play one of Europe's minnows like Faroe Islands or Andorra 100 times, and might actually lose a couple, and tie a couple.

If US women play Thailand 100 times, US will win every one by at least five goals, and Thailand would be lucky to score five total. Such is the current gulf in womens soccer.

And while Chile has better cup odds than Thailand for some reason, they are actually below them in FIFA rankings. Sweden scored exactly two on Chile, both very late on.
So the idea that 'we needed to score 13 in case Sweden scores 15 on them', or in case we lose to an even worse Chile team, is bollocks.

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 06-13-2019 at 12:54 PM.
  #91  
Old 06-13-2019, 12:55 PM
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So yes, it can be argued that this scoreline probably ensures them a next round game against a slightly worse opponent, but still one way beneath them. But personally, if a choice between the two I would choose class and basic human decency every time.
I'm not being snarky or deliberately obtuse here, I genuinely want to know where you're coming from here. If you were the USWNT coach, at what point would have told the women to dial it back? After one goal? Five? Ten? After which goal would you have told them to stop celebrating?
  #92  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:19 PM
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HeyHomie! No worries, I can see the 12-0. But the 13th was scored in the freaking last minute of the game. Was there truly a need for that? Yes, goal differential, I get it, but does anyone think it is going to come down to that 13th goal?

American football teams do not try and score in the last minute when up big. Basketball teams up big will not attempt a shot with the shot clock off in the last minute. (knockout tourney, gd, yes, I get it, just examples).

Passing the ball back and forth in their own end the entire second half would have been much more embarrassing to Thailand than continuing to score, I agree. Is there a set minute of a game when up big you stop trying? No. But last minute of the game, stoppage time, was that really necessary? I could even see the 13th if it was on a bad backpass right in front of goal, but it wasn't, IIRC.

It is standard for soccer players playing against a former team, if they left on good terms, to not overly celebrate ANY goal against a former team, out of respect, regardless of the stakes. My celebration level would be tempered based on the level of opposition- why if you have been there done that does scoring against the worst team in the tournament require a choregraphed dance? Smiles and high fives and hugs are always fine, but the crap by Rapinoe was classless.

Is your goal any less memorable to you if you don't dance afterwards?

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 06-13-2019 at 01:21 PM.
  #93  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:35 PM
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I always thought that the post-goal business of sliding around on your knees, invoking your god, and tearing your shirt off (why or why did they stop doing that??) was just part of soccer culture. I'll be honest, I don't know what Megan did that was so objectionable, since I lost interest in the game after the third US goal. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume she didn't do anything vulgar, like give Thailand the finger, though.
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Old 06-13-2019, 01:44 PM
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I always thought that the post-goal business of sliding around on your knees, invoking your god, and tearing your shirt off (why or why did they stop doing that??) was just part of soccer culture. I'll be honest, I don't know what Megan did that was so objectionable, since I lost interest in the game after the third US goal. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume she didn't do anything vulgar, like give Thailand the finger, though.
It is now, with this younger generation!

Those celebrations drew ire on social media, some of it directed at Megan Rapinoe for twirling and turf-sliding after her goal — which made it 9-0. Morgan was rebuked for holding up four fingers after her fourth goal, which made it 10-0.


“If anyone wants to come at our team for not doing the right thing, not playing the right way, not being a good ambassador, they can come at us,” Rapinoe told Fox Sports on Wednesday. “It was an explosion of joy. If our crime is joy, then we will take that.”


Preening about scoring four, then five, on the worst team in the tourney is stupid at best, classless at worst, and something only the most jingoistic American can justify. Both her and Rapinoe have won it all before, so you cant call it first time or youthful exuberance. The standard response when scoring goal 9 on a minnow is smiles, hugs and high fives.

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 06-13-2019 at 01:47 PM.
  #95  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:48 PM
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Bleh. Much ado about not a lot, if you ask me. And I'm hardly a jingoistic American. But regardless, neither of us is going to change the other's mind by continuing to hash this out.
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Old 06-13-2019, 01:52 PM
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Bleh. Much ado about not a lot, if you ask me. And I'm hardly a jingoistic American. But regardless, neither of us is going to change the other's mind by continuing to hash this out.
Ron Burgundy- Agree to disagree
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Old 06-13-2019, 01:57 PM
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Ron Burgundy- Agree to disagree
See, this is why the SDMB needs to allow images. That gif of Ron Burgundy blowing fire out of his flute is the perfect response to this.
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:34 PM
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Female soccer player here... Actually, Jill Ellis was my high school club coach.

1. I have no problem with the score. You respect a team by playing hard for 95 minutes. It would have been pandering to do any less. And goal differential matters. These women have worked their asses off to achieve at the highest level of the game. They deserve to celebrate. EXCEPT

2. Megan Rapinoe played like absolute garbage. Her celebration was over the top and ridiculous considering how she played. Her passing percentage must be abysmal, as she gave the ball away or got stripped more than she played positively. Several of her crosses and shots sailed acres over the goal line. Total hot garbage. She is in for a rude awakening against even a semi-decent opponent.

3. That poor goalie... but two thirds of those goals were saveable. Almost half touched her gloves. Again, the USNWT is in for a rude awakening.
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:41 PM
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Female soccer player here... Actually, Jill Ellis was my high school club coach.
Cool- very interesting insight

Moving on from Thailand, I agree with your assessment of the team. I think most Americans who don't regularly follow the sport just assume its same team, different year, but I personally do not see them as THE favorite at the moment.

They did not play well in the She Believes Cup they just hosted, at all- two draws and one unconvincing win IIRC. England, the winners, were to me clearly better, and I was bit surprised they are not favorites.

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 06-13-2019 at 03:43 PM.
  #100  
Old 06-13-2019, 03:44 PM
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Just out of curiosity, in the various qualifying competitions, there were 19 goals scores in the 90th minute or later in wins of 5 or more goals.
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