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Old 08-06-2019, 12:36 PM
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Call a spade, a spade, and a liar, a liar.


I kind of figure my response would earn me a warning in GD, so I'm putting it here instead.

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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Gun control simply doesnt work- it can't work to reduce mass killings.
Stop lying.

Stop with the fucking lies.

Why the hell are you fucking lying to defend policies that kill thousands of people a year? Does it make you feel good or something?

Gun control works in dozens of other countries. It works, because we can ALL see that it works. The statistics prove it every single day. Saying it "simply doesnt work" is nothing but a bald faced dirty lie.
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Old 08-06-2019, 12:41 PM
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100% agree.

The only way gun control “can’t” work is if you start with the assumption that gun control won’t actually limit guns. It’s at best an unimaginative view of the possibilities, and much more likely an intentional framing of the issue designed to close off options distasteful to DrDeth and others.
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Old 08-06-2019, 12:44 PM
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Gun control only works if you do it really, really hard. If you have 300 million guns in the nation, reducing it by a whopping 90 percent still leaves you with 30 million guns. All it takes is one or a few for a killing spree.
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Old 08-06-2019, 12:51 PM
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I just bought one of these a couple of days ago: Make Lying Wrong Again shirt.
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:12 PM
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And the evidence usually presented is that the US states with strong gun control still have a lot of gun violence. Which argument is nonsense because no US state has strong gun control, because people like DrDeth won't allow it.

Velocity, even if the US did come to their senses, it'd take a long time for gun control to work. But eventually, those remaining guns would get lost, or wear out, or confiscated after a crime, or be inherited by people who don't want to be grabbing them, or genuinely sink in lakes, or whatever.
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:25 PM
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Okay, so maybe it might take a long time to clear the guns out but stopping all sales of ammo would make that happen a lot sooner. Toys are no fun if you can't play with them, and an unloaded gun is, at best, an awkward bludgeon. Fine, sell rifle ammo for hunting but microstamp every goddamned bullet and register the owner to the ammo such that if any of those bullets ends up where they don't belong the registered owner is criminally liable right alongside the person who shot the offending round. Seems like that would work fairly briskly.
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Gun control only works if you do it really, really hard. If you have 300 million guns in the nation, reducing it by a whopping 90 percent still leaves you with 30 million guns. All it takes is one or a few for a killing spree.
Right, but stopping the flow of guns into the hands of criminals would slow the flow of guns into the hands of criminals

If guns are more expensive, or they are harder to acquire, or their owners are actually held responsible for keeping track of them, then they will not as easily go into the hands of criminals.

I can buy a gun on the black market cheaper than I can buy one in a gun store. No background check, no waiting period, no registration or anything. As long as that is the case, as long as it is that easy for a criminal to get a gun, then it will not change.

You don't need to get the guns out of people's collections, you just need to make sure that they are actually responsible for the guns in their collections.
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:56 PM
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I just bought one of these a couple of days ago: Make Lying Wrong Again shirt.
I couldn't see the shirt because of my make-trump-into-kittens app, but I still like it.
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:41 PM
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Okay, so maybe it might take a long time to clear the guns out but stopping all sales of ammo would make that happen a lot sooner. Toys are no fun if you can't play with them, and an unloaded gun is, at best, an awkward bludgeon. Fine, sell rifle ammo for hunting but microstamp every goddamned bullet and register the owner to the ammo such that if any of those bullets ends up where they don't belong the registered owner is criminally liable right alongside the person who shot the offending round. Seems like that would work fairly briskly.
Most gun enthusiasts are also into hand reloading as well. They don't buy ammo.
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Omar Little View Post
Most gun enthusiasts are also into hand reloading as well. They don't buy ammo.
There is truth to that. My dad does this (though he tells me itís a pain and I think he usually doesnít bother). Of course you can make this practice illegal, and many nations do, or at least heavily restrict it.
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:52 PM
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Right, but stopping the flow of guns into the hands of criminals would slow the flow of guns into the hands of criminals
Exactly. Even just reducing the flow of guns into the hands of criminals means fewer criminals with guns.

We banned drunk driving. Some people still drink and drive, and sober people also cause crashes. But that doesn't mean banning drunk driving was ineffective.

Last edited by scr4; 08-06-2019 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:59 PM
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Most gun enthusiasts are also into hand reloading as well. They don't buy ammo.
I don't believe this for one single instant, unless you True Scotsman "gun enthusiasts" so hard that they're a negligible percentage of the population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartAleq View Post
Okay, so maybe it might take a long time to clear the guns out but stopping all sales of ammo would make that happen a lot sooner. Toys are no fun if you can't play with them, and an unloaded gun is, at best, an awkward bludgeon. Fine, sell rifle ammo for hunting but microstamp every goddamned bullet and register the owner to the ammo such that if any of those bullets ends up where they don't belong the registered owner is criminally liable right alongside the person who shot the offending round. Seems like that would work fairly briskly.
And of course manufacturing unstamped ammo is a crime, and if an unstamped bullet that hasn't been registered as sold to somebody is used in a crime, the manufacturer is considered criminally liable.
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Old 08-06-2019, 05:01 PM
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God and Guns. A great many Americans profoundly believe in them. You can no more persuade most gun believers to give up their guns than you can persuade most religious people to give up their god. Profound belief is what it is -- immune to facts and reason.
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Old 08-06-2019, 05:07 PM
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"If we can't completely stop something, then we might as well not do anything."

-Average gun control opponent
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Old 08-06-2019, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Omar Little View Post
Most gun enthusiasts are also into hand reloading as well. They don't buy ammo.
Do you consider your average criminal to be a "gun enthusiast" for the purposes of this discussion?
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Old 08-06-2019, 05:22 PM
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Well, at least if we did ban guns, we would prove how delusional these gun loving twats are when they rave about how they need their guns in case they need to bring down the government.

One of these folks tried to tell me that a backwoods ragged army once brought down the mightiest European power so that a new nation could become independent. So obviously it could happen again.

I answered, "Oh yeah? Is France going to come in as an ally this time too?"

He just glared at me.
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Old 08-06-2019, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
...If you have 300 million guns in the nation, reducing it by a whopping 90 percent still leaves you with 30 million guns...
Plus, there's these, which I imagine would spawn a new movement of ammo control, ushering in a new wave of these.

I wouldn't consider the ironically named DrDeth's opinion to be a lie, or even a falsehood. The human animal will do what ever it takes to sate their impulses, regardless of law or regulation. The US's one and a quarter million violent felonies each year tend to bear that out.
  #18  
Old 08-06-2019, 06:12 PM
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Of course gun control works - as has been said, we have plenty of countries where it does.

It is fair to say that it will be a huge problem to get some Americans to accept gun control.
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Old 08-06-2019, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnBckWLD View Post
Plus, there's these, which I imagine would spawn a new movement of ammo control, ushering in a new wave of these.

I wouldn't consider the ironically named DrDeth's opinion to be a lie, or even a falsehood. The human animal will do what ever it takes to sate their impulses, regardless of law or regulation. The US's one and a quarter million violent felonies each year tend to bear that out.
And I'm betting that the number of people who would do that would be negligible.
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Old 08-06-2019, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnBckWLD View Post
Plus, there's these, which I imagine would spawn a new movement of ammo control, ushering in a new wave of these.

I wouldn't consider the ironically named DrDeth's opinion to be a lie, or even a falsehood. The human animal will do what ever it takes to sate their impulses, regardless of law or regulation. The US's one and a quarter million violent felonies each year tend to bear that out.
In the context of the original thread, it remains a lie, while your points here seem to be useful, there are not when one considers that in developed nations, with gun control, one important feature is for authorities to investigate and confiscate guns if people that should not have guns or weapons that are restricted happen to have them.

https://time.com/4172274/what-its-li...t-gun-control/
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A lot of people think there arenít any guns in Australia any more, but there are. By some estimates there is one gun for every seven people. My local suburban pistol club has 300 members. My sons have been shooting since they were 12 and both have rifle and pistol licenses.

Itís actually not that hard to own a gun. But you do have to have a genuine reason. You have to be a member of a target shooting club or a hunter and you have to prove it. For hunting, you can get written permission from a landowner who says you are hunting on his land. Or you can join a hunting club. Pistols [handguns], on the other hand, are heavily restricted. All applicants undergo a background check by the police and there is a mandatory 30 day cooling off period for all license applications, both long arms and pistols. Firearms safety training courses are mandatory as well.
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Another part of the law that changed is that the police can come to your house and inspect your storage. When we renovated our house, I built a room dedicated to my firearms collection. Theyíre all in large safes. All the ammunition is stored separately to the rifles and the pistols. If you have more than 15 or so pistols, youíve got to have a monitored alarm. If someone were to break into my house, or into my gun room, an alarm would go off and the police would be notified immediately.

The police are required to inspect your gun room. Since 1996, the police have inspected mine three or four times. While they can come randomly, they normally put a call through and we arrange an agreeable time to come in and inspect it. Iím happy for them to do it. I want them to see that itís safe.
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When then Prime Minister John Howard proposed the gun law I marched like everybody else did in opposition to it. But I now fully endorse what he did. I didnít like handing over my rifles, but at the end of the day, itís a small price to pay not to have the nut-jobs walking through shopping centers and massacring innocent people.

Australia is a great country. You can go hunting, you can go shooting. And as long as you hurt nobody and abide the law you can continue to do it. That to me is freedom. The idea of having people own guns with no concept of gun safety and no reason to have a gun? That is not my idea of freedom.
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Old 08-06-2019, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by monstro View Post
"If we can't completely stop something, then we might as well not do anything."

-Average gun control opponent
Glad you clarified that was said by a gun control opponent, because it certainly doesnít apply to the average right winger as it pertains to brown people seeking shelter in this country as is their legal right. In that case, they loooove doing I neffective but obscene things.
  #22  
Old 08-06-2019, 08:08 PM
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Plus, there's these, which I imagine would spawn a new movement of ammo control, ushering in a new wave of these.
Well, it's a start: New York has banned the manufacture, sale or possession of 3D-printed guns last week.

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And I'm betting that the number of people who would do that would be negligible.
Definitely not the surest bet I've heard of. And even if it would ultimately turn out to be just a handful - still ominously shitty.

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I just bought one of these a couple of days ago: Make Lying Wrong Again shirt.
Got an annoying "this item can't be shipped to this address" message.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:46 AM
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100% agree.

The only way gun control ďcanítĒ work is if you start with the assumption that gun control wonít actually limit guns. Itís at best an unimaginative view of the possibilities, and much more likely an intentional framing of the issue designed to close off options distasteful to DrDeth and others.
DrDeth is an idiot. I can't stand to see his posts, even on issues where we agree. I've only got three Dopers blocked, and he's one of them.
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:24 AM
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Well, at least if we did ban guns, we would prove how delusional these gun loving twats are when they rave about how they need their guns in case they need to bring down the government.

One of these folks tried to tell me that a backwoods ragged army once brought down the mightiest European power so that a new nation could become independent. So obviously it could happen again.

I answered, "Oh yeah? Is France going to come in as an ally this time too?"

He just glared at me.
If they want guns to bring down an out of control government, they should have started about 2 years ago.
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:27 AM
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I just bought one of these a couple of days ago: Make Lying Wrong Again shirt.
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Got an annoying "this item can't be shipped to this address" message.
I just ordered one without a problem (Thanks for the link, Bo). Were you shipping to a P O box or something like that? Maybe they have certain shipping restrictions.
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:54 AM
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I hope it isn't because I'm one them varmint Canadians.

(ah yes - just saw another bothersome message saying "This item does not ship to Victoria, Canada")
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:23 AM
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I hope it isn't because I'm one them varmint Canadians.
Oh fuck, buddy, eh. There's more of you around here than you can throw a snowball at.
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:25 AM
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DrDeth is an idiot. I can't stand to see his posts, even on issues where we agree. I've only got three Dopers blocked, and he's one of them.
yep. He's a willfully ignorant cunt.
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:42 AM
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I don't believe this for one single instant, unless you True Scotsman "gun enthusiasts" so hard that they're a negligible percentage of the population.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/u...mmunition.html
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Old 08-07-2019, 01:10 PM
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I wouldn't consider the ironically named DrDeth's opinion to be a lie, or even a falsehood. The human animal will do what ever it takes to sate their impulses, regardless of law or regulation. The US's one and a quarter million violent felonies each year tend to bear that out.


In a thread that literally starts out "Stop lying. Stop with the fucking lies", you post that bullshit?

The vast majority of people are too fucking lazy to do anything as complicated as learning how to manufacture their own guns&ammo. If they can't drive to the store and buy it, they'll just do without.

How many people grow their own marijuana? How many cook their own meth? Almost none, and the information on how to do both those things is at least as easy to find as how to make guns and ammo.
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Old 08-07-2019, 01:45 PM
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So, that looks like a pretty small minority of gun owners to me, though to be fair, I could only read down to where they said "millions" before it kicked me out for the paywall. There are hundreds of millions of gun owners. What percentage of gun owners load their own ammo, do you think?

What is the difference between a gun owner, and a gun enthusiast, in your opinion?
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Old 08-07-2019, 02:15 PM
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I'm just impressed that a thread with a racial epithet in the title can stick around this long.
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Old 08-07-2019, 02:19 PM
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I'm just impressed that a thread with a racial epithet in the title can stick around this long.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade
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Old 08-07-2019, 02:57 PM
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I'm just impressed that a thread with a racial epithet in the title can stick around this long.
You must think gardeners and card-players are monsters.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:11 PM
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I'm just impressed that a thread with a racial epithet in the title can stick around this long.
What I hate about the internet is that I can never tell if this is sincere ignorance or deliberate trolling.
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Old 08-07-2019, 04:29 PM
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So, that looks like a pretty small minority of gun owners to me, though to be fair, I could only read down to where they said "millions" before it kicked me out for the paywall. There are hundreds of millions of gun owners. What percentage of gun owners load their own ammo, do you think?

What is the difference between a gun owner, and a gun enthusiast, in your opinion?
You believe that over 2/3 of the country are gun owners?

You might want to do a bit of research, instead of spouting off stats you think you heard on the news.

You start taking away ammo, from gun owners the number of gun owners that start doing their own reloading will swell.
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Old 08-07-2019, 04:41 PM
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You believe that over 2/3 of the country are gun owners?

You might want to do a bit of research, instead of spouting off stats you think you heard on the news.

You start taking away ammo, from gun owners the number of gun owners that start doing their own reloading will swell.
Given the training and expertise of a majority of gun owners, that could prove to be [Artie Johnson]verrrry interesting...but shtupid.[/AJ]

Last edited by Czarcasm; 08-07-2019 at 04:44 PM.
  #38  
Old 08-07-2019, 05:03 PM
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You start taking away ammo, from gun owners the number of gun owners that start doing their own reloading will swell.
Swelling from 1% to 3% is a 200% increase!! Panic, I say! Panic!

I'll tell you a little secret: I'm an optimist. I'm going to assume that the bulk of people who roll their own bullets are not petty criminals or psychotic fucks. Okay, admittedly, you have to be a little bit insane to do that, especially nowadays, but I suspect it's mostly limited to serious hobbyists. Of which only, oh, half of which are actually evil monsters desperate to murder people. At a guess, I mean.

So while I freely admit that it wouldn't utterly eliminate the problem of criminals and deranged psychopaths murdering people with their guns, putting strict controls on ammo should probably make a rather significant dent.
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:58 PM
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Did you bother to read your own cite?
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About five million out of roughly 43 million hunters and sport shooters in the United States make their own bullets and shells, according to reloading companies.
So about 1 in 9. Not quite a majority.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:21 PM
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You believe that over 2/3 of the country are gun owners?

You might want to do a bit of research, instead of spouting off stats you think you heard on the news.

You start taking away ammo, from gun owners the number of gun owners that start doing their own reloading will swell.
Not to mention that it doesn't go bad. Neither do guns, really, but we have to start somewhere. It needs to start with guns.

I'm the odd moderate perhaps. I own 12 guns. All inherited in one way or another. Haven't shot in a while. I do enjoy target shooting so I purchased a very high quality air rifle. $600. The specialized air compressor for it (3000psi) ran another $600. It's very, very quiet. I have no neighbors, but don't want shots to echo around the valley. I can hear the guys sighting in their rifles from a mile away. I can put holes in paper from our deck while my wife doesn't even hear it inside.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:39 PM
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A simple fact need to be brought into this discussion. We don't outlaw murder, robbery or rape because we believe that doing so will somehow "stop criminals". We do so because it is a means of expressing our disapproval, as a society, of those modes of behavior And also lets up deal with the people who would incur said disapproval.
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Old 08-08-2019, 04:46 AM
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We banned drunk driving. Some people still drink and drive, and sober people also cause crashes. But that doesn't mean banning drunk driving was ineffective.
Biggest bullshit ever spewed on this site! We did no such thing. We made it illegal so you get a criminal charge, the same as if you shoot someone. In fact kill someone in DUI accident & you'll get less jail time than if you kill someone with a gun though your victim is just as dead.

There are over 10,000 people killed in DUIs every year in the US, just because they're ones & twos at a time they don't get the media coverage like with what happened in El Paso & Dayton this weekend.

Want to ban DUI? There's a very simple, fairly inexpensive solution. Make ignition interlock devices required on all new cars & retrofitted on existing cars after X years. The volume would mean the cost would come down to less than the couple of hundred it costs to have one installed after you were convicted of DUI. $100 or $200, at most, vs. the cost of a new car is peanuts.
  #43  
Old 08-08-2019, 08:32 AM
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You start taking away ammo, from gun owners the number of gun owners that start doing their own reloading will swell.
And do you think reloaders manufacture their own propellant? You can restrict the sale of propellant just as simply as you could restrict the sale of ammo.
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:42 AM
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Most gun enthusiasts are also into hand reloading as well. They don't buy ammo.
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And do you think reloaders manufacture their own propellant? You can restrict the sale of propellant just as simply as you could restrict the sale of ammo.
Yep. Reloaders can make crappy black powder at home, but cordite is a different story. Then there's the percussion caps. We'll have mass shooters with flintlocks.
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:43 AM
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Biggest bullshit ever spewed on this site! We did no such thing. We made it illegal so you get a criminal charge, the same as if you shoot someone. In fact kill someone in DUI accident & you'll get less jail time than if you kill someone with a gun though your victim is just as dead.
We do not just criminalize killing people while drunk, we also criminalize driving while drunk. If you are pulled over, and you are over .08 (in most states), then you get a criminal charge, even if you had not yet had an accident.

As a person with a gun only becomes a criminal once they have used their gun in commission of a crime, your analogy to DUI falls completely apart.

Also, intent matters. You should get more repercussions if you shoot someone than if you kill them by accident, even if you were negligent in creating factors that caused that accident.
Quote:

There are over 10,000 people killed in DUIs every year in the US, just because they're ones & twos at a time they don't get the media coverage like with what happened in El Paso & Dayton this weekend.
I see plenty of news coverage about not just DUI, but even unintoxicated car accidents in my local paper nearly every day. If all you pay attention to is national news, then you will only see things that are newsworthy to a national audience. What does someone in seattle care about a drunk driver in dayton? Seattle already has drunk drivers to write about. What seattle doesn't have is a mass shooter, so that is newsworthy nationally.

If the problem is that you don't pay attention to local news, and only pay attention to the national news, then of course you are going to get a skewed view of the media coverage, but that is not the media's fault that you have chosen to ignore local stories of mundane DUIs to concentrate on stories about mass shootings.
Quote:
Want to ban DUI? There's a very simple, fairly inexpensive solution. Make ignition interlock devices required on all new cars & retrofitted on existing cars after X years. The volume would mean the cost would come down to less than the couple of hundred it costs to have one installed after you were convicted of DUI. $100 or $200, at most, vs. the cost of a new car is peanuts.
If we need to do that, we may look into it. What we have done so far has lessened the number of DUI accidents considerably. The difference between DUI accidents and gun violence is, is that there is not a pro-drunk driving lobby blocking or reversing restrictions on intoxicated driving. There is no one trying to say that these DUI traffic deaths are just a price that society has to pay in order for you to enjoy your god given right to drink and drive.
  #46  
Old 08-08-2019, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
What we have done so far has lessened the number of DUI accidents considerably. The difference between DUI accidents and gun violence is, is that there is not a pro-drunk driving lobby blocking or reversing restrictions on intoxicated driving. There is no one trying to say that these DUI traffic deaths are just a price that society has to pay in order for you to enjoy your god given right to drink and drive.
Itís interesting to look at drunk driving in the debate on reducing or stopping gun violence (especially mass shootings). Itís interesting because we havenít outlawed personal ownership and operation of vehicles, or alcohol. (We tried to outlaw alcohol consumption but that didnít turn out very well.)

Comparing the NRA to a pro drunk-driving lobby is inaccurate. Because as much as you may dislike the NRA (and Iím no fan either) they are not a pro mass shooting or firearms murder lobby any more than the alcoholic beverage industry advocates impaired driving. Their resistance to gun regulation may be standing in the way of any real fix for gun violence, but theyíre not promoting it.

But again, I think the way that US law and culture treats alcohol consumption and vehicle use is a good model for a solution for gun violence. Alcohol sale and consumption is regulated very well, and so is operating and owning a vehicle. Safety has improved immensely through education, outreach, and laws made with public safety in mind. I think that something along those lines can be done for gun ownership as well. Reasonable regulation done with safety in mind, and no need to change or create a constitutional amendment.
  #47  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak View Post
I kind of figure my response would earn me a warning in GD, so I'm putting it here instead.

Stop lying.

Stop with the fucking lies.

Why the hell are you fucking lying to defend policies that kill thousands of people a year? Does it make you feel good or something?

Gun control works in dozens of other countries. It works, because we can ALL see that it works. The statistics prove it every single day. Saying it "simply doesnt work" is nothing but a bald faced dirty lie.
So when you say stop lying you are excusing yourself?

Here is the whole quote from Dr. Deth:

"Gun control simply doesnt work- it can't work to reduce mass killings. [/i]It could, maybe reduce violent crime a bit./[/i]"

It is an entirely reasonable to say that gun control will stop mass killings in a country with 400 million firearms but may reduce other violent crime.

Your omission of that second sentence is pretty dishonest. If you find yourself lying and distorting the truth to reach your conclusions, then perhaps your conclusions are not as undeniable as you seem to think they are.
  #48  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
And the evidence usually presented is that the US states with strong gun control still have a lot of gun violence. Which argument is nonsense because no US state has strong gun control, because people like DrDeth won't allow it.

Velocity, even if the US did come to their senses, it'd take a long time for gun control to work. But eventually, those remaining guns would get lost, or wear out, or confiscated after a crime, or be inherited by people who don't want to be grabbing them, or genuinely sink in lakes, or whatever.
Licensing and registration would work better and faster than that I think.
  #49  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:10 PM
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Okay, so maybe it might take a long time to clear the guns out but stopping all sales of ammo would make that happen a lot sooner. Toys are no fun if you can't play with them, and an unloaded gun is, at best, an awkward bludgeon. Fine, sell rifle ammo for hunting but microstamp every goddamned bullet and register the owner to the ammo such that if any of those bullets ends up where they don't belong the registered owner is criminally liable right alongside the person who shot the offending round. Seems like that would work fairly briskly.
I don't think that's how microstamping works. I think it only imprints the bullet casing not the bullet itself.

We rarely if ever assign criminal liability to an innocent party for the criminal acts of another. Why not simply criminalize gun ownership, while you're dreaming stuff up.
  #50  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I can buy a gun on the black market cheaper than I can buy one in a gun store.
Where do you live because guns are more expensive on the street than a similar gun in the gun shop in every city I have lived in.
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