Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-11-2019, 04:12 PM
Jim B. is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,024

Two Star Trek Questions.


First off, why do almost never hear anything about Star Trek: Deep Space 9 anymore? I have satellite TV and it apparently is not on on any of their channels at least. TNG and TOS are well represented. Heck so is Voyager. But no DS9. I'm serious. Frankly it is the only show of the franchise I never followed because I thought it was rather silly and had too much angst. But some people still liked it apparently.

Also, speaking of the other series, why did they never do a movie? The Voyager series ended not too long ago. And the actors from it still look relatively young, IMHO at least.

__________________
"Love takes no less than everything." (from "Love Is", a duet by Vanessa Williams and Brian McKnight)

Last edited by Jim B.; 08-11-2019 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Slight content revision.
  #2  
Old 08-11-2019, 04:21 PM
Alpha Twit's Avatar
Alpha Twit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Somewhere south of normal
Posts: 2,345
The answer to both your questions is simply lack of demand. DS9 was my favorite of the Trek series but this is not a common opinion among the fan base. Most fans would consider Voyager to be a distant third at best. The studios have basically moved on to what they think most of the fans are willing to pay to see, Discovery and the Kelvin timeline.
__________________
Ask not the Dopers a question for you will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know.
  #3  
Old 08-11-2019, 04:26 PM
Ethilrist is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Saint Paul
Posts: 26,918
Voyager & Enterprise dragged the curve way down as far as interest & vitality for the franchise were concerned. By the time DS9 ended, lots of people had stopped watching; by the time Enterprise started, even more had dropped. When Voyager ended, people were already saying that the franchise needed a break, and then they came out with Enterprise and just beat the horse some more. The whole franchise needed to lie fallow for four years before they could make the new Star Trek movies, and even then, some people hate the reboot.

DS9 is just stuck being the last really good series they made while people were abandoning the sinking ship, like the dance band on the Titanic.

Last edited by Ethilrist; 08-11-2019 at 04:27 PM. Reason: I like string
  #4  
Old 08-11-2019, 04:27 PM
cochrane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Nekkid Pueblo
Posts: 22,033
Deep Space Nine is on the Heroes and Icons (H&I) network six nights a week. It runs in a block with the other four classic Star Trek series, TOS, TNG, VOY, and ENT. H&I is an OTA network, but is also carried on the local cable systems in my area since we have an affiliate over one of our stations.

Edit, AFAIK, it is not available on satellite, but if it's carried in your area, you may be able to pick it up with an antenna.

Last edited by cochrane; 08-11-2019 at 04:30 PM.
  #5  
Old 08-11-2019, 05:25 PM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 46,360
Everything was on Netflix the last time I checked.
Not surprising CBS is giving more than most people want, since the people who run the franchise these days don't have a clue about what made it a franchise.

If you want to see a really good Star Trek series, watch The Orville. Seth MacFarlane understands Star Trek better than anyone now associated with Star Trek.
  #6  
Old 08-11-2019, 05:36 PM
Alpha Twit's Avatar
Alpha Twit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Somewhere south of normal
Posts: 2,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
If you want to see a really good Star Trek series, watch The Orville. Seth MacFarlane understands Star Trek better than anyone now associated with Star Trek.
100% agree when they avoid the silliest 10% of McFarlane's sense of absurdist humor.
__________________
Ask not the Dopers a question for you will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know.
  #7  
Old 08-11-2019, 05:45 PM
NJ_Kef is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Trentonopolis
Posts: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha Twit View Post
100% agree when they avoid the silliest 10% of McFarlane's sense of absurdist humor.
I've been trying to come up with a description for the low humor in this otherwise sometimes provocative Star Trek lookalike.
  #8  
Old 08-11-2019, 05:55 PM
AncientHumanoid's Avatar
AncientHumanoid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Quantum foam
Posts: 24,510
It's on Netflix. Prime, too I think. B5 is on one of those, too.

I'm waiting for the claymation raisins version
__________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
  #9  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:16 PM
Peter Morris's Avatar
Peter Morris is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The far canal
Posts: 12,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
Also, speaking of the other series, why did they never do a movie? The Voyager series ended not too long ago. And the actors from it still look relatively young, IMHO at least.
Not too long ago = 18 years.

Neither DS9 nor Voyager is really suitable for a movie follow up. DS9 was heavy on plot arcs, which were all resolved by the end. Voyager had a central dilemma: get home, which was resolved in the final episode. Where do you go from there?
  #10  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:21 PM
silenus's Avatar
silenus is offline
Isaiah 1:15/Screw the NRA
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 51,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha Twit View Post
The answer to both your questions is simply lack of demand. DS9 was my favorite of the Trek series but this is not a common opinion among the fan base. Most fans would consider Voyager to be a distant third at best. The studios have basically moved on to what they think most of the fans are willing to pay to see, Discovery and the Kelvin timeline.
And the studio is wrong, as usual.

DS9 also got rather arc-y in the last couple of seasons, making it harder to follow for the casual viewer. Voyager was hampered by a cast that couldn't act their way through a 3rd grade class play, scripts that plumbed new depths of awful and a total ignoring of the basic premise of the show.
  #11  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:48 PM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 59,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ_Kef View Post
I've been trying to come up with a description for the low humor in this otherwise sometimes provocative Star Trek lookalike.
It's when they charge up the distractor beam, set on repel.
__________________
Don't worry about the end of Inception. We have top men working on it right now. Top. Men.
  #12  
Old 08-11-2019, 07:25 PM
jackdavinci is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Port Jefferson Sta, NY
Posts: 8,083
Thereís a fairly buzz worthy DS9 documentary which just came out. It includes speculation about what another season might have looked like. The new Picard series has a guest spot by Seven of Nine, so itís possible some DS9 characters could eventually appear there or on Discovery or another project.
  #13  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:43 PM
Robot Arm is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Medford, MA
Posts: 23,518
There's a podcast called Mission Log which has been reviewing one episode of Star Trek per week, in roughly the order that the shows were made. They've done TOS and TNG, and are now in the second or third season of DS9. They've mentioned a couple times that this show doesn't have quite the fan base or familiarity that its predecessors do, and maybe takes a bit more of an effort to get into, but they are watching with an open mind and growing to appreciate it.
  #14  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:55 PM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 36,114
Deep Space Nine is available on Netflix, last I checked. It was the best written Star Trek series of its era. It wasn't silly at all, but quite well thought-out.
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.
  #15  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:08 PM
Alpha Twit's Avatar
Alpha Twit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Somewhere south of normal
Posts: 2,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
It wasn't silly at all,........
I'll grant you that there was very little non-Ferengi based silliness. But........, yeah. Some of the Quark heavy episodes, silly is about the best thing you can say about them. Watch Little Green Men or The Magnificent Ferengi and tell me there's no silliness.
__________________
Ask not the Dopers a question for you will receive three answers, all of which are true and horrifying to know.
  #16  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:49 PM
CairoCarol is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 4,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Deep Space Nine is available on Netflix, last I checked. It was the best written Star Trek series of its era. It wasn't silly at all, but quite well thought-out.
I quite agree. The other Star Trek shows had an easy way to develop stand-alone plots - they were on exploratory missions, so always exploring new planets and coming into contact with new aliens. By comparison, DS9 was stationary - yes, different cultures did visit the space station, but still, they were stuck hovering over Bajor. My sense is that, because they did not have the easy crutch of exotic new planets to visit in each episode, they were forced to think more about subtleties like character development.
__________________
If I waited for memory to serve, I'd starve.
  #17  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:04 AM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 46,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by CairoCarol View Post
I quite agree. The other Star Trek shows had an easy way to develop stand-alone plots - they were on exploratory missions, so always exploring new planets and coming into contact with new aliens. By comparison, DS9 was stationary - yes, different cultures did visit the space station, but still, they were stuck hovering over Bajor. My sense is that, because they did not have the easy crutch of exotic new planets to visit in each episode, they were forced to think more about subtleties like character development.
In one of the special features of the DVD set of an early season, the DS9 PTB bragged about how they had to deal with issues, not fly away at the end of every episode. Which seems to have led to them running out of plot ideas and falling back on the interminable Dominion War. And the Defiant visiting planets just like they said they wouldn't.

The first three seasons were great, but it fell to hell by the fifth and I gave up.
Errand of Mercy on TOS was designed to introduce an adversary but make sure the series would not center around a war. The Great Bird knew what the hell he was doing.
  #18  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:05 AM
psychonaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,950
DS9's been airing several times per week (along with Voyager and TNG) on Tele 5 since at least as far back as 2012.
  #19  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:04 AM
Odesio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 11,554
Quote:
Originally Posted by silenus View Post
DS9 also got rather arc-y in the last couple of seasons, making it harder to follow for the casual viewer. Voyager was hampered by a cast that couldn't act their way through a 3rd grade class play, scripts that plumbed new depths of awful and a total ignoring of the basic premise of the show.
As much as I disliked Voyager I'll defend the actors because most of the problem lay with the writing and directing. The actors were told to underplay their human roles to make the aliens seem more real. And the writers just didn't go anywhere with some of the characters. Did we ever find out what tribe Chakotay belonged to?
__________________
I can be found in history's unmarked grave of discarded ideologies.
  #20  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:53 AM
MrAtoz is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odesio View Post
Did we ever find out what tribe Chakotay belonged to?
Based on the fact that even Memory Alpha refers to them only as Chakotay's tribe, I'm guessing no. There may have been a deliberate decision not to identify a specific tribe, so as not to risk getting some aspect of the culture wrong.

I was very active in Trek fandom at the time DS9 was on, and I can remember one phrase that was floating around at the time was "Star Trek for connoisseurs." That is, DS9 was aimed at the more discriminating viewers, those who wanted more than just the wacky alien of the week or the latest holodeck malfunction. Now, that was probably just DS9 fans being snooty, but there was always a sense that, because they weren't actually "trekking" anywhere, DS9 has a fundamentally different feel. I can definitely remember there were some people who were less enthusiastic about it for precisely that reason. It was also darker in tone than TOS and TNG had been, and some people (including George Takei, most prominently) felt that was a betrayal of the optimistic vision of Gene Roddenberry.

I remember Avery Brooks coming in for some criticism because his performance as Ben Sisko, at least early on, seemed very low-key and subdued. I read at the time that he was doing that very deliberately. He felt that as a military officer, Sisko would be very disciplined and keep his emotions under tight control. But I think it read to some viewers as a flat and lifeless performance. He did expand his emotional range as the series progressed.

As mentioned, DS9 is on Netflix. I've re-watched a few episodes here and there, but its highly serialized nature does make it harder to watch just one episode.
  #21  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:42 AM
Just Asking Questions is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 7,242
As noted, DS9 nis on most every night. But I don't like to watch them, because of the reason others like DS9 so much - the season's long story arc. I have no idea where they are and I don't remember it enough to figure it out. I can try to guess where theya re in the war, or say, "Hey, City on the Edge of Forever is on! Let's watch it instead."

I suspect Chakotay's tribe would be unrecognizable to moderns. I figure with the two large wars, and things getting all mixed up, and records lost, the history of native Americans got lost. His tribe is probably half one real tribe, and half Disney.
  #22  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:31 AM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 36,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odesio View Post
As much as I disliked Voyager I'll defend the actors because most of the problem lay with the writing and directing. The actors were told to underplay their human roles to make the aliens seem more real. And the writers just didn't go anywhere with some of the characters. Did we ever find out what tribe Chakotay belonged to?
Yes, but it was a fictional tribe (the Rubber Tree people from Central America) that was originally given the gift of intelligence by some white aliens. One of them was played by the guy who played Elaine's boss in Seinfeld (Richard Fancy).

While it is exactly as racist as that sounds (SFDebris considers it the worst and most racist episode in the franchise), I don't 100% blame them. They were fooled by a charlatan of a Native American consultant. So at least they were trying, unlike other big companies that tried to exploit Native Americans.
  #23  
Old 08-13-2019, 01:24 AM
Dale Sams is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Yes, but it was a fictional tribe (the Rubber Tree people from Central America) that was originally given the gift of intelligence by some white aliens. One of them was played by the guy who played Elaine's boss in Seinfeld (Richard Fancy).

While it is exactly as racist as that sounds (SFDebris considers it the worst and most racist episode in the franchise), I don't 100% blame them. They were fooled by a charlatan of a Native American consultant. So at least they were trying, unlike other big companies that tried to exploit Native Americans.
As a native...I blame them. They were blinded by their White Savior complex. This was AFTER the abominable Journey's End which featured such gems as:

!. Wheaton: "We're doing an Indian episode!!" Oh that's great, is that like a "Jew Episode" or a "Black episode" Tell me more.

2. Bullshit mumbo-jumbo spiritualism white guilt for Picard. Picard (AND JANEWAY) are people of reason....UNTIL of course it comes to "Indian spiritualism". Then its all "HMMMMMMMMM"

3, Dialogue such as "Picard! What are you going to do about your Indians!!" Oh they arn't settlers? They arn't colonists? This Cardassian is calling them Indians??
  #24  
Old 08-13-2019, 01:58 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 26,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Deep Space Nine [...] wasn't silly at all
"Move along, move along home!"
  #25  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:39 AM
Just Asking Questions is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 7,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
"Move along, move along home!"
Easily one of the worst DS9 eps! The other contenders being any one with Vic Fontaine or Grand Nagi.

Most science fiction shows go way overboard for Native Americans. In the glorious future of the 24th century no one believes in God, ghosts, vampires, psychic healing, crystal power, chiropractors, or any woo that the early 21st century believes in. But Native Americans! They really have "powers". They are the one allowed spiritualistic group.

A woman claiming to be the Devil herself is obviously a charlatan, but Native Americans are "one" with the cosmos. They can help Westley understand his abilities as a time/space genius.

And it's not just Star Trek. In the final Jack Williamson Humanoid novel, the humanoids had pacified and controlled every human in the universe, controlled their every thought and action, for their own good, of course. Except for the Native Americans, who have the Wisdom to run their own lives unmolested by The Humanoid Touch.

Maybe it's Hollywood Liberal Guilt, I don't know.
  #26  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:34 AM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 36,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
They can help Westley
I just have to ask. I don't know of anyone in the world actually named "Westley," as opposed to "Wesley," but I often see it spelled this way on the internets. I wonder what gives.
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.
  #27  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:50 AM
WildaBeast's Avatar
WildaBeast is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 553
I rewatched Deep Space Nine on Netflix a few years ago. I found I liked it better the second time around than when it originally aired. I was a teenager back when if was first on the air, and I think when I was that age I preferred the "alien of the week" format of TNG. Watching it again as an adult I could appreciate the political and religious intrigue of DS9 more.
  #28  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:52 AM
Morgyn is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: In the time stream
Posts: 5,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
I just have to ask. I don't know of anyone in the world actually named "Westley," as opposed to "Wesley," but I often see it spelled this way on the internets. I wonder what gives.
Confusing the name with Westley from The Princess Bride, maybe?

Actually, I have a vague recollection of people deliberately misspelling the name because they hated the character so much.

Which, damnit, was not Wil Wheaton's fault. The writers just didn't know what to do with the character, so he became the go-to for either doing really dumb things to get an episode started or really smart things to solve the episode's problem. Given what he had to work with, Wheaton did a decent job and could have done better, as is evidenced by his work in movies like Stand By Me or guest roles in other series like The Big Bang Theory or Criminal Minds.
  #29  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:11 PM
Just Asking Questions is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 7,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
I just have to ask. I don't know of anyone in the world actually named "Westley," as opposed to "Wesley," but I often see it spelled this way on the internets. I wonder what gives.
What gives is I trusted spellcheck. I didn't care enough to look it up, and got bit.

I work with a "Westly" so I guess I blurred Wesley and Westly and got Westley. (interestingly, the only one flagged as incorrect by the software is the one I know personally.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgyn View Post
The writers just didn't know what to do with the character, so he became the go-to for either doing really dumb things to get an episode started or really smart things to solve the episode's problem. Given what he had to work with, Wheaton did a decent job and could have done better, as is evidenced by his work in movies like Stand By Me or guest roles in other series like The Big Bang Theory or Criminal Minds.
I'm one of the small group that never hated "the boy". He had bad episodes. But, they ALL had bad episodes. Is Wesley worse than Pulsaki? I hated her entire season. Is he worse than the worse use of The Goddess of Empathy and her catsuit? Wesley wasn't that bad.

but The Game still sucks.

Last edited by Just Asking Questions; 08-13-2019 at 12:15 PM.
  #30  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:45 PM
Dale Sams is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
What gives is I trusted spellcheck. I didn't care enough to look it up, and got bit.

I work with a "Westly" so I guess I blurred Wesley and Westly and got Westley. (interestingly, the only one flagged as incorrect by the software is the one I know personally.)



I'm one of the small group that never hated "the boy". He had bad episodes. But, they ALL had bad episodes. Is Wesley worse than Pulsaki? I hated her entire season. Is he worse than the worse use of The Goddess of Empathy and her catsuit? Wesley wasn't that bad.

but The Game still sucks.
The chase scene was fun.

I never hated him at all....and what he was in Final Mission is what he should have been all along. A little defensive, a little arrogant, father issues, a little mouthy and a nice contrast with Picard.
  #31  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:02 PM
Just Asking Questions is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 7,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post

I never hated him at all....and what he was in Final Mission is what he should have been all along. A little defensive, a little arrogant, father issues, a little mouthy and a nice contrast with Picard.
I liked his scene in The Bonding, explaining how he used to hate Picard, but not any longer. I got the impression Picard never realized before how much it affected Wes.
  #32  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:27 PM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: my Herkimer Battle Jitney
Posts: 85,214
I enjoyed DS9 a lot, and VGR much less so overall, but both came to natural and mostly-satisfying conclusions. No particular reason to take them into the movies (although then-Adm. Janeway appeared in ST Nemesis, I believe), and the studio already had other ST iterations in mind.
  #33  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:33 PM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: my Herkimer Battle Jitney
Posts: 85,214
Incidentally, I thought Wesley's best episode was "The First Duty," where he grapples with misplaced loyalty, peer pressure, survivor guilt and his admiration of Picard. Damn fine episode (plus it's got Boothby the Academy groundskeeper and hey, there's Richard Fancy again!): https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki...Duty_(episode)
  #34  
Old 08-14-2019, 06:42 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 26,067
Never really minded Wesley, other than the ridiculousness of having any kids on that kind of starship in the first place.
  #35  
Old 08-14-2019, 06:26 PM
AncientHumanoid's Avatar
AncientHumanoid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Quantum foam
Posts: 24,510
Kids took differential calculus in 3rd grade, physics in 5th. And Wesley was supposed to be a parsec or two beyond all of them.

Please... hoo-mahn race didn't evolve pacifism and ultra smarts in 300 years.


....................
__________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.

Last edited by AncientHumanoid; 08-14-2019 at 06:27 PM. Reason: phasers on stunning!
  #36  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:44 PM
nitroglycerine is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: PA
Posts: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
Easily one of the worst DS9 eps! The other contenders being any one with Vic Fontaine or Grand Nagi.
Don't you blaspheme. Wallace Shawn is a GOD!
__________________
............................................................
" Remember, In The case of Sonic Attack, Survival does mean every man for his self....Do not attempt to rescue friends, relitives or loved ones. You only have a few seconds to escape. Use those seconds wisely, inevetably die."-Hawkwind
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:56 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017