Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-09-2019, 03:56 PM
Rick Kitchen's Avatar
Rick Kitchen is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Citrus Heights, CA, USA
Posts: 17,160

Tulsi Gabbard and the Science of Identity cult


Tulsi Gabbard grew up in a cult called "Science of Identity:, run by a guy named Chris Butler, who calls himself "Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa". They pretend to be Hindu, but in fact, the cult revolves around Butler and the members' worship of him. Gabbard went to SoI schools her entire life, and didn't leave the cult until she joined the Army. She is still a member, and her husband, eight years her junior, is a member. One of her campaign officials, whose campaign business cards don't list his position with the campaign organization, is the right hand man of Chris Butler. The cult is anti-gay and anti-Muslim, which explains a lot of Gabbard's policies.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...-campaign.html
  #2  
Old 08-09-2019, 04:00 PM
Unreconstructed Man is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 300
Which of Gabbard’s policies does it explain? Be specific.
  #3  
Old 08-09-2019, 04:18 PM
HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Which of Gabbard’s policies does it explain? Be specific.
Her policy of being a total whackjob.
  #4  
Old 08-09-2019, 04:18 PM
Thing Fish is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago (NL)
Posts: 3,380
There was a New Yorker article about this a while back. The detail I can't unsee is that cult members would eat Butler's toenail clippings in order to...absorb his holiness or something.
  #5  
Old 08-09-2019, 04:29 PM
Unreconstructed Man is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Her policy of being a total whackjob.
Yeah...no. If this thread is going to be an actual discussion then I’m gonna need specifics. If it’s just gonna be a circle jerk then just come out and say so.
  #6  
Old 08-09-2019, 04:39 PM
HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Yeah...no. If this thread is going to be an actual discussion then I’m gonna need specifics. If it’s just gonna be a circle jerk then just come out and say so.
Already jerking it. I hope this has helped inform your decision on how to proceed.
  #7  
Old 08-09-2019, 04:44 PM
Unreconstructed Man is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 300
Yep. I’m out. Enjoy...whatever this is.
  #8  
Old 08-09-2019, 06:52 PM
E-DUB's Avatar
E-DUB is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thing Fish View Post
There was a New Yorker article about this a while back. The detail I can't unsee is that cult members would eat Butler's toenail clippings in order to...absorb his holiness or something.
Eeeeeeew. Fingernail clipping I could get, but toenail clippings? That's just gross.
  #9  
Old 08-09-2019, 06:57 PM
Defensive Indifference is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 7,176
I haven't bothered to read up on Gabbard. I'm pretty much "vote Blue no matter who" in 2020. In the unlikely event Gabbard gets the nomination, is she just a little better than Trump, or is even she a lot better than Trump?
  #10  
Old 08-09-2019, 08:52 PM
foolsguinea is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 15,828
So much of this sounds like rumor & gossip about a politician with an unusual religious background.
I keep thinking, "How is this different from claiming that Ilhan Omar married her brother? Or that Barry Obama was part of Al Qaeda?"

That said, I did find one piece on Medium by someone who claims to have been in Butler's cult:
https://medium.com/@lalitamann/an-in...uru-e2650f0d09
Quote:
From a young child I remember one of the main features of my life was the lectures that were sent to us via tape for us to listen to. Basically these were 1 hour long sessions of Chris talking about his beliefs – how evil and out of control gay people were, how women were inferior and sub human and should be controlled by their husbands, how messed up and evil the outside world was, and how his relationship with God was so special, only he could lead you back to Godhead (Heaven) and that he had so much control over his existence on earth, he could choose the moment of his death. We worshipped him, loved him even. Another part of his teachings was that all life is an illusion, and because of that all relationships were an illusion. We were encouraged to not invest in any relationships other than with him, so we were in effect isolated from our parents who did their best to not love us as per his recommendation, and instead looked at him like a surrogate father/messiah figure. He was this imposing force in our life that we weren’t supposed to offend, which is frankly terrifying when you’re a small child.

<snip>

Not only would [Gabbard] she lose support for the position she holds, but she would lose her family, all of her friends, and this messiah/father figure if she opposed Chris Butler. She would be outcast from the only existence she has ever known. That’s a hugely powerful reason to continue to please Chris Butler without question.

I truly feel for Tulsi. Hers is not an enviable position. I know because I spoke out about Chris Butler a few years ago, and my family cut off all contact from me. This has happened to every other person I know of who got out. I hope one day Tulsi does reject Chris and finds her own voice. She has done amazing things and it makes me sad to think that another victim who was been abused and manipulated her whole life isn’t able to have the career she’s worked so hard for, free and clear of Chris’s toxic influence. Maybe one day she will, but while he is her guru, his influence over her makes her dangerous and unreliable, because Chris is dangerous and unpredictable.
So, yes, that's scary if true.
  #11  
Old 08-09-2019, 11:47 PM
Rick Kitchen's Avatar
Rick Kitchen is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Citrus Heights, CA, USA
Posts: 17,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Which of Gabbard’s policies does it explain? Be specific.
Her anti-gay views, for one.
  #12  
Old 08-10-2019, 12:28 AM
foolsguinea is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 15,828
Her past anti-gay views.
  #13  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:49 AM
HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post
So much of this sounds like rumor & gossip about a politician with an unusual religious background.
No, it is 100% true. Tulsi Gabbard grew up in the cult 'Science of Identity', which is a rogue splinter of Hare Krisha, headed by a charismatic leader named Chris Butler. His followers call him Jagad Guru, or "teacher of the world." Sect members describe remembering him thus:
Quote:
Everyone I spoke to who was raised in the group described, as children, hearing Butler call men “faggots” and women “cunts.”
Gabbard has in the past opposed LGBT rights and abortion. I've read reports that she has fallen in line with Democrats on this, at least as far as policy and legislation, but she's never personally repudiated her cult's anti-gay views.
  #14  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:08 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 22,541
Gabbard is at best an eccentric candidate of maybe some entertainment value. But if she was a serious candidate then ... meh.

Her disqualifications are what her views are, how she would govern (badly), and her lack of electability, not what religion she was raised in or even currently practices.

You can find very very odd things in every religion.

She would perhaps be the closest to being Trump bad (still not there) but not because of this.
  #15  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:18 AM
HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
I haven't bothered to read up on Gabbard. I'm pretty much "vote Blue no matter who" in 2020. In the unlikely event Gabbard gets the nomination, is she just a little better than Trump, or is even she a lot better than Trump?
Personally I find some very concerning signs that her strings are pulled by whoever is pulling Trump's (Russia and or Republicans).

First, there is her strange hesitance to criticize Assad, a Russian ally. The ostensible reason is her anti-interventionist stance. Russia is of course a beneficiary of that stance, but it's a reasonable stance in itself. However she seems strangely hesitant to call Assad a tyrant or a dictator or even an adversary.

Second, she seems to have gone all-in on Republican and Russian talking points regarding Russian interference. Consider this YouTube video where she hits these notes:
  • The Mueller report revealed no collusion
  • America needs to put it aside
  • It's good for America because a Trump indictment "could have led to a civil war"
  • "We must move beyond this divisive issue"
It's remarkable enough for a Democrat to repeat Republican Party talking points before the ink is dry on the Mueller report, but what really raised my eyebrows was the implied but very clear threat that indicting Trump could lead to a civil war. This echoes Russian propaganda floated by people like Vladimir Zhirinovsky suggesting that a vote against Trump is a vote for nuclear war. I mean, wow.

She does also thread the needle by suggesting America should see the report, that elections should be made secure against interference. This would seem to be anti-Republican/anti-Russian, but we all know this is a risk-free position given that the Republicans in power (Mitch McConnell, Bill Barr) are never going to let it happen.

If your concern with Trump is that he's a vulgar moronic narcissist, then Gabbard will be preferable to Trump. But looking past that superficial concern, Gabbard seems equally as dangerous as Trump. Perhaps more so, given that she's more poised and polished and would presumably have more bipartisan support.

If I were the party pulling Trump's strings, for 2020 I'd tweak my strategy and run my puppet to the center. Gabbard seems to fit that pattern for now.
  #16  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:36 AM
kayaker's Avatar
kayaker is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 32,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thing Fish View Post
There was a New Yorker article about this a while back. The detail I can't unsee is that cult members would eat Butler's toenail clippings in order to...absorb his holiness or something.
Is there a more effective way to absorb someone's holiness?
  #17  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:41 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Gabbard is at best an eccentric candidate of maybe some entertainment value. But if she was a serious candidate then ... meh.

Her disqualifications are what her views are, how she would govern (badly), and her lack of electability, not what religion she was raised in or even currently practices.

You can find very very odd things in every religion.

She would perhaps be the closest to being Trump bad (still not there) but not because of this.
Like you, I don't give her any odds of making very far into the primary season, but she's dangerous in the sense that she could linger around just long enough to be noticed. One problem with the gargantuan Democratic field isn't the sheer number of candidates themselves; it's the possibility for the field to fragment into different little camps with very myopically-focused, obsessive, almost cult-like followers who refuse to vote for anyone outside of their political sect. We obviously have that danger with Bernie Sanders, but we could apply that to Andrew Yang and Tulsi Gabbard as well. It's not necessarily clear how committed to beating Trump some of these voters really are. I suspect there still exists a not-so-insignificant "Screw the system, they all suck! Burn it all down" contingent.

Sorry for the thread-creep

Last edited by asahi; 08-10-2019 at 09:41 AM.
  #18  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:58 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 22,541
Oh those people are there I’ve no doubt. But are they there any more or less because of the presence of these sorts of candidates? Or do more of them merely divide them up more into different camps?

I’d suspect that come the general election and a Warren, Biden, or Harris as the nominee, the same fraction will either stay home or vote against Trump whether there have been three screw the system primary candidates or one ...
  #19  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:14 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 5,331
The antiwar candidate will always be slandered. It has been true for the entire history of the United States.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 08-12-2019 at 07:14 AM.
  #20  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:51 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,745
Yes, but we're talking about the pro-war candidate here.
  #21  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:32 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 5,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Yes, but we're talking about the pro-war candidate here.
No that would be Biden and Harris along with other lower polling hawks.
  #22  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:44 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The antiwar candidate will always be slandered. It has been true for the entire history of the United States.
It isn't slander if it is true. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
  #23  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:45 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
No that would be Biden and Harris along with other lower polling hawks.
Biden is polling low? What polls do you have that put Gabbard over Biden?
  #24  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:00 AM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 18,166
I'm sure he meant "Biden, Harris and other hawks (who are polling lower than Biden and Harris)"
  #25  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:31 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 5,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
It isn't slander if it is true. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
Do I have evidence she isn’t weird, odd, or scary?
  #26  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:33 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Do I have evidence she isn’t weird, odd, or scary?
Is that the question I asked?
  #27  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:09 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 5,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Is that the question I asked?
Yes. That’s how she is being slandered.
  #28  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:20 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Yes. That’s how she is being slandered.
I don't know why you keep pushing this candidate...but I do know why the Republican Party wants her to be a front runner. She carries so much baggage her nickname might as well be "Samsonite", and the bad PR about her would practically guarantee a second Trump term.
  #29  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:22 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 35,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Yes. That’s how she is being slandered.
What in the article referenced in the OP is slander, in your opinion?
  #30  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:41 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 5,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
What in the article referenced in the OP is slander, in your opinion?
“Tulsi Gabbard Had a Very Strange Childhood”

Ooh scary weird brown person wants to stop wars...

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 08-12-2019 at 11:42 AM.
  #31  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:42 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 35,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
“Tulsi Gabbard Had a Very Strange Childhood”
Is this the extent of the slander in the article, in your opinion?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-12-2019 at 11:42 AM.
  #32  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:44 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 5,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
I don't know why you keep pushing this candidate...but I do know why the Republican Party wants her to be a front runner. She carries so much baggage her nickname might as well be "Samsonite", and the bad PR about her would practically guarantee a second Trump term.
Yes unlike other candidates who have supported every war and incarceration she has “baggage” because of your blatant religious bigotry. Curious that religion is baggage while hawkishness and Puritanism is not.
  #33  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:46 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
“Tulsi Gabbard Had a Very Strange Childhood”

Ooh scary weird brown person wants to stop wars...
Supersizing a single word and artificially inserting a racism accusation? I don't know where you are getting your craptastic bullet points, but you might want to find another source.
  #34  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:51 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 5,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Is this the extent of the slander in the article, in your opinion?
The whole thing was slander, the headline of the article was pure bigotry, but of course that is how US media deals with antiwar candidates.
  #35  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:55 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 35,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The whole thing was slander, the headline of the article was pure bigotry, but of course that is how US media deals with antiwar candidates.
Aside from "strange", what in the article was slander? It appeared to me to be mostly factual reporting.
__________________
My new novel Spindown
  #36  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:58 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The whole thing was slander, the headline of the article was pure bigotry, but of course that is how US media deals with antiwar candidates.
Care to get specific as to what was inaccurate in the article...or are you going to stick with the vague accusations?
  #37  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:01 PM
Ulf the Unwashed is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,464
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Aside from "strange", what in the article was slander? It appeared to me to be mostly factual reporting.
This poster is very fond of using the term “slanderous” to describe many Americans’ criticisms of Gabbard. As s/he uses it, the sense of the word seems to be “people don’t like her and I think they should.” Unfortunately, I doubt you will get much further edification asking questions about what Actual Slander has taken place.

Last edited by Ulf the Unwashed; 08-12-2019 at 12:02 PM.
  #38  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:13 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,745
Gabbard has literally described herself as a hawk, and she's the only Democratic candidate who has done so. She has stated multiple times that we should significantly step up our military efforts against Muslims, when all of the other Democrats are looking for ways to make peace.
  #39  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:13 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 8,742
From the Medium link earlier up above:
"I hope one day Tulsi does reject Chris and finds her own voice."

So, she's a Chrisian then?
  #40  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:13 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,129
Isn't Tulsi Gabbard the "anti-war pacifist" that took off two weeks from the campaign for National Guard duty? I know her name gets lots of play on Fox News, and she had a pleasant interview with Tucker Carlson...and if Tucker Carlson gives you a pleasant interview you might want to rethink your value system.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 08-12-2019 at 12:14 PM.
  #41  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:49 PM
Steve MB is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 13,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The whole thing was slander
That sort of confusion about basic concepts is one of the reasons nobody takes you seriously.
__________________
The Internet: Nobody knows if you're a dog. Everybody knows if you're a jackass.
  #42  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:53 PM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 26,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Yes unlike other candidates who have supported every war and incarceration she has “baggage” because of your blatant religious bigotry. Curious that religion is baggage while hawkishness and Puritanism is not.
I think Mike Pence’s religion of hatred of gay people and disdain for women is baggage. Does that ease your mind at all?
  #43  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:17 PM
etasyde is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 223
I'm not a Gabbard fan, but being a reformed crazy wackjob who came to their senses when presented with better information earns my respect far more than some crazy whackjob who happened to be fed correct information and therefore isn't as obviously crazy.

The fact that she discarded those insane beliefs means she is a rational person who will adopt the best answer based on available information rather than cling to ignorance/insanity/arrogance like most other candidates would. Remember, just because someone happens to be right doesn't mean they're right for the right reason. And a rational person can be completely wrong and seemingly insane if they have all bad premises/data to work from. This is a demonstration that she can and will change even deep seeded beliefs that are demonstrated to be wrong... and that's an excellent quality to have.
  #44  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:24 PM
Rick Kitchen's Avatar
Rick Kitchen is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Citrus Heights, CA, USA
Posts: 17,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
I'm not a Gabbard fan, but being a reformed crazy wackjob who came to their senses when presented with better information earns my respect far more than some crazy whackjob who happened to be fed correct information and therefore isn't as obviously crazy.

The fact that she discarded those insane beliefs means she is a rational person who will adopt the best answer based on available information rather than cling to ignorance/insanity/arrogance like most other candidates would. Remember, just because someone happens to be right doesn't mean they're right for the right reason. And a rational person can be completely wrong and seemingly insane if they have all bad premises/data to work from. This is a demonstration that she can and will change even deep seeded beliefs that are demonstrated to be wrong... and that's an excellent quality to have.
One of the members of her campaign staff is the second in command of the cult. Her husband is a member of the cult. Where has it been established that she has come to her senses and has discarded those beliefs?
  #45  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:40 PM
HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
The fact that she discarded those insane beliefs means she is a rational person who will adopt the best answer based on available information rather than cling to ignorance/insanity/arrogance like most other candidates would.
Except... she never said any of this. She announced she was running for president and that she was no longer anti-LGBTQ. She has given no insight into why she made this decision or how her personal beliefs have changed. She's never repudiated Science of Identity or said she was no longer affiliated with them.

The simplest explanation is that she's still in the cult, she's avoiding damage to her presidential run, and she's a liar about LGBTQ issues.
  #46  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:07 PM
etasyde is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Except... she never said any of this. She announced she was running for president and that she was no longer anti-LGBTQ. She has given no insight into why she made this decision or how her personal beliefs have changed. She's never repudiated Science of Identity or said she was no longer affiliated with them.

The simplest explanation is that she's still in the cult, she's avoiding damage to her presidential run, and she's a liar about LGBTQ issues.
That's a silly stance to take. She did something stupid nearly 30 years ago when she was under the thumb of her parents, and that's how we're supposed to interpret every action she takes forever more?

Are you beholden to the beliefs you learned as a teenager?

Furthermore, it's fairly easy to spot a fake. Mike Pence, when he deigns to imply he doesn't hate gays with a fiery passion, is an obvious fake when it comes to tolerance. Same as most conservative, christian adults. The evidence against them, especially in terms of policy proposals and political efforts, is insurmountable. You're accusing her of being a fake. Do you have any evidence to support this claim?
  #47  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:36 PM
ShadowFacts is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,231
Quote:
Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
That's a silly stance to take. She did something stupid nearly 30 years ago when she was under the thumb of her parents, and that's how we're supposed to interpret every action she takes forever more?

Are you beholden to the beliefs you learned as a teenager?
She was making documented homophobic statements as recently as 2004, when she was 22 years old and an adult, so we can dispense with the 30 years nonsense, thank you.

She has acknowledged and publicly apologized for those statements, saying that her views on LGBTQ people have "evolved" - it's up to each person to decide if they believe her or not.
  #48  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:37 PM
HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
Are you beholden to the beliefs you learned as a teenager?
Yes, you should assume that I hold all of my teenage beliefs, unless I tell you I changed my beliefs and I give you a convincing explanation why. Gabbard hasn't explained anything.

Quote:
You're accusing her of being a fake. Do you have any evidence to support this claim?
I'm gonna read your own words back to you here:

Quote:
Remember, just because someone happens to be right doesn't mean they're right for the right reason
Did Gabbard give a reason for why she's on the right side now? No. Did she repudiate the cult that taught her the wrong beliefs? No. I don't believe she's changed because she's given me no reason to believe her.
  #49  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:12 PM
etasyde is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Yes, you should assume that I hold all of my teenage beliefs, unless I tell you I changed my beliefs and I give you a convincing explanation why. Gabbard hasn't explained anything.
That's a rather ridiculous standard. People are full of silly beliefs instilled by their parents until they get out in the world and learn for themselves. That's ostensibly what college is for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Did Gabbard give a reason for why she's on the right side now? No. Did she repudiate the cult that taught her the wrong beliefs? No. I don't believe she's changed because she's given me no reason to believe her.
You expect far too much from an individual you have no personal relationship with, and who isn't in the limelight to pursue the issue you want her to talk about. If she were an LGBT+ activist, I suspect she'd take the time to focus on that. She's not. She's running for president. She doesn't have time or the media bandwidth to spend on the issue. She publicly repudiated her stance and has done nothing since then to support the claim that it was a false repudiation.

But look, my very first statement was "I'm not a Gabbard fan." I'm not going to waste time defending someone I don't care all that much about. My point was not to get overly attached to the past religious beliefs of an individual when said individual is willing to say they were wrong.
  #50  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:23 PM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 26,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
You expect far too much from an individual you have no personal relationship with, and who isn't in the limelight to pursue the issue you want her to talk about.... If she were an LGBT+ activist, I suspect she'd take the time to focus on that. She's not. She's running for president. She doesn't have time or the media bandwidth to spend on the issue.
Well, explaining her views on issues like this is literally her job right now. Everyone running for President should be offering clear statements on their views, including if their current views are different from their past ones. If a candidate isn’t doing that, they aren’t good at their current job.

Seeing as how she doesn’t have time to do this (which is perhaps what she is thinking), I’m not sure why any Democratic voter should waste any time when there are at least a dozen other candidates who are actually trying to explain their appeal to people.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:15 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017