Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #3051  
Old 03-09-2018, 10:52 AM
Happy Lendervedder's Avatar
Happy Lendervedder is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Michigan
Posts: 15,128
Quote:
Originally Posted by friedo View Post
As expected, Sam Nunberg actually showed up to testify before the Mueller's grand jury. So much for self-destructive meltdowns.
Well, public ones anyway. He did show up to the grand jury.
  #3052  
Old 03-09-2018, 11:15 AM
garygnu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Posts: 11,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
Mueller seems to have reason to believe that the Trump campaign was attempting to set up a secret back channel to the Kremlin. Coming up empty on a legitimate reason for this.
Wasn't Kushner also caught trying to set up a back channel to Moscow? Or are these one in the same?

In any case, Cadet Bone Spurs needed a direct line to his boss because hiding it wasn't working well. Only inept criminals were willing to do it and side conversations at summit meetings were to infrequent.

I don't believe the Trump Tower meeting was a Russian lawyer offering dirt on Clinton. I believe it was an actual, high-level coordination meeting discussing everything from how and when Russian intelligence would help in the election to what exactly they were expecting in return.
__________________
°o°
  #3053  
Old 03-09-2018, 11:27 AM
wonky's Avatar
wonky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DC area
Posts: 30,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by garygnu View Post
Wasn't Kushner also caught trying to set up a back channel to Moscow? Or are these one in the same?

In any case, Cadet Bone Spurs needed a direct line to his boss because hiding it wasn't working well. Only inept criminals were willing to do it and side conversations at summit meetings were to infrequent.

I don't believe the Trump Tower meeting was a Russian lawyer offering dirt on Clinton. I believe it was an actual, high-level coordination meeting discussing everything from how and when Russian intelligence would help in the election to what exactly they were expecting in return.
You know, I can still easily believe that Trump is actually innocent of intentionally colluding. He's a profoundly silly man, and people with any manipulation skills could easily take advantage of his flaws.

That said, holy shit some of these stories are eye popping. And holy shit, the Trump team could not have handled his actual innocence worse, if innocent he is.

The thing I find most worrisome is that I don't have a sense now of what's plausible and what isn't. Articles this week were talking about all the people who have mysteriously died (related to Russia, not Trump specifically), and I thought "I can't tell if this is reality or Vince Foster-esque nuttiness or something in between." My bullshit filters have been completely swamped.
  #3054  
Old 03-09-2018, 11:46 AM
Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonky View Post
And holy shit, the Trump team could not have handled his actual innocence worse, if innocent he is.
I don't think you can blame "the Trump team". It's Trump himself. (One exception is the Comey firing, which had the involvement of a broader group, if not all.)

I don't believe there's any team in the world which could have successfully dealt with this type of situation with a guy like Trump as president.
  #3055  
Old 03-09-2018, 11:48 AM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by garygnu View Post
Wasn't Kushner also caught trying to set up a back channel to Moscow? Or are these one in the same?

In any case, Cadet Bone Spurs needed a direct line to his boss because hiding it wasn't working well. Only inept criminals were willing to do it and side conversations at summit meetings were to infrequent.

I don't believe the Trump Tower meeting was a Russian lawyer offering dirt on Clinton. I believe it was an actual, high-level coordination meeting discussing everything from how and when Russian intelligence would help in the election to what exactly they were expecting in return.
Two separate attempts. One by Kushner, one by Prince.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wonky View Post
You know, I can still easily believe that Trump is actually innocent of intentionally colluding. He's a profoundly silly man, and people with any manipulation skills could easily take advantage of his flaws.

That said, holy shit some of these stories are eye popping. And holy shit, the Trump team could not have handled his actual innocence worse, if innocent he is.

The thing I find most worrisome is that I don't have a sense now of what's plausible and what isn't. Articles this week were talking about all the people who have mysteriously died (related to Russia, not Trump specifically), and I thought "I can't tell if this is reality or Vince Foster-esque nuttiness or something in between." My bullshit filters have been completely swamped.
Exactly as intended. The truth is out there, but it's intentionally being made very hard to discern.

Trump is a silly man, but more than silly, he is corrupt to the bone. There's nothing innocent about his many, many attempts to obstruct, obfuscate, frustrate and muddy the waters of Mueller's investigation. Nothing innocent about actively crafting a false narrative about the purpose of the meeting in Trump Tower. Nothing innocent about his failure to impose lawful Russian sanctions or to condemn Russian interference in the 2016 election, against all unequivocal findings of every single American intelligence agency.

Personally, I am gobsmacked that anyone still doubts his guilt. When you study and understand all the Russian connections involved and realize that every single one of them leads back to Trump, it's impossible, in my view, to see anything but a man who is guilty as fuck. I'll allow he may have been initially co-opted as an unwitting co-conspirator. But that's far from the case any longer.
  #3056  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:25 PM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 23,194
Stupid Watergate:

Michael Cohen used his Trump.org email address to arrange payment to Stormy Daniels.
  #3057  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:29 PM
wonky's Avatar
wonky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DC area
Posts: 30,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
Trump is a silly man, but more than silly, he is corrupt to the bone. There's nothing innocent about his many, many attempts to obstruct, obfuscate, frustrate and muddy the waters of Mueller's investigation.
Of course there could be. He's a fucking moron who thinks he should be immune from investigation and questioning because he's the president. He thinks that whatever he says should go. When you are as incredibly limited as he is intellectually, you can do the most ridiculous things in reaction to slights, and he could easily be viewing the entire line of investigation into a slight on his ability to garner votes.

That doesn't mean that I think he should be immune from the fallout, including prosecution. But I still think it's completely plausible that he's just the fucking idiot in the center who has no real grasp on anything that anyone has been doing. Instead of 11 dimensional chess, he's playing Twister by smearing shit all over the mat and declaring himself the winner.

Last edited by wonky; 03-09-2018 at 12:31 PM.
  #3058  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:35 PM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonky View Post
Of course there could be. He's a fucking moron who thinks he should be immune from investigation and questioning because he's the president. He thinks that whatever he says should go. When you are as incredibly limited as he is intellectually, you can do the most ridiculous things in reaction to slights, and he could easily be viewing the entire line of investigation into a slight on his ability to garner votes.

That doesn't mean that I think he should be immune from the fallout, including prosecution. But I still think it's completely plausible that he's just the fucking idiot in the center who has no real grasp on anything that anyone has been doing. Instead of 11 dimensional chess, he's playing Twister by smearing shit all over the mat and declaring himself the winner.
Fortunately, "fucking moron" never flies as a defense to the charges that are likely to be laid against him. He won't be found not guilty just because he carries out his crimes inartfully.
  #3059  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:37 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,774
Even if he didn't know, it was his responsibility to know, and failing to act on that responsibility can be a crime.
  #3060  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:40 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,935
I highly doubt if that's true.

Perhaps you can give an example of someone prosecuted for something that was his responsibility to know but that he didn't.
  #3061  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:41 PM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 23,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
I highly doubt if that's true.

Perhaps you can give an example of someone prosecuted for something that was his responsibility to know but that he didn't.
Ken Lay.
  #3062  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:44 PM
wonky's Avatar
wonky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DC area
Posts: 30,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
Fortunately, "fucking moron" never flies as a defense to the charges that are likely to be laid against him. He won't be found not guilty just because he carries out his crimes inartfully.
I don't know if you think that is countering something I have said or if you are agreeing with me.

As for "inartfully," I think it's possible he had no idea anyone was doing anything wrong with Russia because he is too arrogant, too stupid, and too self-absorbed. It's entirely possible to be absolved of crimes because you didn't know about them if you can put up the plausible defense that you didn't know about them.

I think he is a crook in his business dealings and likely those dealings include the Russians. I think he may be a handy tool for the Russians otherwise, without necessarily being aware of it, just as he's unaware of basically everything else on the planet. And I think he would be behaving the same now either way.
  #3063  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:52 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Ken Lay.
Incorrect.
  #3064  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:55 PM
SteveG1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Van Nuys CA
Posts: 14,230
There has just been TOO MUCH for him to not be aware. He knew. And then he did everything he could to distract, divert, cover up, and obstruct. He is guilty as fuck and there was just too much going on for him to NOT know.
  #3065  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:04 PM
wonky's Avatar
wonky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DC area
Posts: 30,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveG1 View Post
There has just been TOO MUCH for him to not be aware. He knew. And then he did everything he could to distract, divert, cover up, and obstruct. He is guilty as fuck and there was just too much going on for him to NOT know.
All of these threads and I think some are still overestimating the level at which he is operating. Complete seat of the pants, knee-jerk, unthinking, instinctive reaction. That's what he does. In general, he's not contemplating things, thinking them through, planning, plotting, etc.

Does anyone think it would be difficult to hide something from Trump if you wanted to? Does anyone in this thread actually think that would be the slightest struggle, to hide something you didn't want him to know?

Someone was up to some bad shit. For me, whether Trump himself was at the center of that or peripheral to it as people thought to use his power for their own ends is pretty immaterial. I'm happy for a trial to figure that out (won't likely come to that, but I can dream).
  #3066  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:08 PM
Blue Blistering Barnacle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 6,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonky View Post



The thing I find most worrisome is that I don't have a sense now of what's plausible and what isn't. Articles this week were talking about all the people who have mysteriously died (related to Russia, not Trump specifically), and I thought "I can't tell if this is reality or Vince Foster-esque nuttiness or something in between." My bullshit filters have been completely swamped.

Yes, Trump’s evil plan is working.
  #3067  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:10 PM
k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 11,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonky View Post
You know, I can still easily believe that Trump is actually innocent of intentionally colluding. He's a profoundly silly man, and people with any manipulation skills could easily take advantage of his flaws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveG1 View Post
There has just been TOO MUCH for him to not be aware. He knew. And then he did everything he could to distract, divert, cover up, and obstruct. He is guilty as fuck and there was just too much going on for him to NOT know.
I do wonder if he did know that there was collusion going on, but was just unaware that it was illegal to do so. That certainly seems to be Jr.'s position, when he says he did nothing illegal, then tweets out the emails incriminating him.

They know nothing about politics or campaigning, they just know that it's a dirty game, so they may have taken any advantage offered them, not realizing that they were committing crimes in the process.

This is no excuse, of course. Just because I don't know that bank robbery is illegal doesn't mean that I get off. If you are running for an office, it is your responsibility to know the laws pertaining to your activity.

Now that they realize how many laws that they broke, they are ineptly trying to cover them up, throw others under the bus, and make excuses for everything else.
  #3068  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:17 PM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonky View Post
I don't know if you think that is countering something I have said or if you are agreeing with me.

As for "inartfully," I think it's possible he had no idea anyone was doing anything wrong with Russia because he is too arrogant, too stupid, and too self-absorbed. It's entirely possible to be absolved of crimes because you didn't know about them if you can put up the plausible defense that you didn't know about them.

I think he is a crook in his business dealings and likely those dealings include the Russians. I think he may be a handy tool for the Russians otherwise, without necessarily being aware of it, just as he's unaware of basically everything else on the planet. And I think he would be behaving the same now either way.
I am disagreeing with you. The issue isn't ignorance, it is intent. That's the legal standard. Even if Trump didn't have a complete grasp that what he was doing meant he was working on behalf of the Russians, it will not save him from suffering the consequences if it can be proved he acted with intent to conspire or obstruct.

And I'm sorry, but there is nothing complicated about Trump's intent to subvert our election process if it can be proved that he was aware of the Trump Tower meeting and its true purpose -- which is rather hard to deny, given some of the language in the email to Don Jr.: "This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin." That is plain language, the intent of which is clear.

There is a basic tenet of the law, referred to as the Reasonable Person Standard, most frequently employed in civil cases having to do with standards for medical practice, e.g., but applicable in some criminal circumstances as well:

Quote:
As a legal fiction,[3] the "reasonable person" is not an average person or a typical person, leading to great difficulties in applying the concept in some criminal cases, especially in regards to the partial defence of provocation.[7] The standard also holds that each person owes a duty to behave as a reasonable person would under the same or similar circumstances.[8][9] While the specific circumstances of each case will require varying kinds of conduct and degrees of care, the reasonable person standard undergoes no variation itself.[10][11] The "reasonable person" construct can be found applied in many areas of the law. The standard performs a crucial role in determining negligence in both criminal law—that is, criminal negligence—and tort law.
(Emphasis mine.) Wikipedia

IANAL and would not claim to understand every nuance of the Reasonable Person Standard, but it's not impossible to consider that a such a standard could be applied to the basic knowledge required to carry out one's duties as President. Let's start with, "Do nothing that is contrary to the interests of the United States, even if it means putting the interests of the country above your own."
  #3069  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:18 PM
Rick Kitchen's Avatar
Rick Kitchen is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Citrus Heights, CA, USA
Posts: 17,182
I want the sweatshirt Whoopie Goldberg was wearing on The View yesterday. In the same script as the logo for Miller Beer, her shirt said, "It's Mueller Time".
  #3070  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:19 PM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Blistering Barnacle View Post
Yes, Trump’s evil plan is working.
Sadly, it sure is.
  #3071  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:24 PM
wonky's Avatar
wonky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DC area
Posts: 30,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I do wonder if he did know that there was collusion going on, but was just unaware that it was illegal to do so. That certainly seems to be Jr.'s position, when he says he did nothing illegal, then tweets out the emails incriminating him.

They know nothing about politics or campaigning, they just know that it's a dirty game, so they may have taken any advantage offered them, not realizing that they were committing crimes in the process.

This is no excuse, of course. Just because I don't know that bank robbery is illegal doesn't mean that I get off. If you are running for an office, it is your responsibility to know the laws pertaining to your activity.

Now that they realize how many laws that they broke, they are ineptly trying to cover them up, throw others under the bus, and make excuses for everything else.
I find that pretty plausible.
  #3072  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:30 PM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen View Post
I want the sweatshirt Whoopie Goldberg was wearing on The View yesterday. In the same script as the logo for Miller Beer, her shirt said, "It's Mueller Time".
I didn't see the show so don't know if this is exactly right, but you can have one: It's Mueller Time
  #3073  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:30 PM
wonky's Avatar
wonky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DC area
Posts: 30,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
I am disagreeing with you. The issue isn't ignorance, it is intent. That's the legal standard. Even if Trump didn't have a complete grasp that what he was doing meant he was working on behalf of the Russians, it will not save him from suffering the consequences if it can be proved he acted with intent to conspire or obstruct.
I do not disagree with you. If it can be proven he acted with intent to do X, then ignorance will not save him in a trial (if it comes to that, which it likely won't). I have not claimed otherwise.

And I think he has obstructed the investigation, quite intentionally. I just do not assume that he obstructed it because he himself was originally guilty of an underlying crime involving collusion of some sort with Russia surrounding the 2016 presidential election.
  #3074  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:31 PM
Steve MB is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 13,366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Incorrect.
Wrong!

Quote:
Judge Lets Enron Jurors Consider If Defendants Turned a Blind Eye

Former Enron Corp. executives Jeffrey K. Skilling and Kenneth L. Lay say they held their heads high when they led the energy company. But jurors will be allowed to consider whether they intentionally buried their heads in the sand to avoid blame for fraud.

U.S. District Judge Simeon T. Lake III this week granted the government's bid for a controversial jury instruction known as "deliberate indifference" or "willful blindness." The language allows jurors to consider whether Skilling and Lay averted their eyes from fraud within Enron's ranks to deny responsibility for it later....
__________________
The Internet: Nobody knows if you're a dog. Everybody knows if you're a jackass.
  #3075  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:34 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve MB View Post
Operative word there is "intentionally".

The claim in this thread, and which I challenged, was that Trump could be criminally liable because "it was his responsibility to know, and failing to act on that responsibility can be a crime". That's not what Lay was charged with.
  #3076  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:36 PM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 23,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Incorrect.
Naw, correct. But I'm gonna play my F-P card by declaring I am not interested in taking the time to properly discuss the Enron debacle with you.

But to answer your question, how about:

https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/21916

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posses...f_stolen_goods

This site is sufficiently right-wing for you: http://dailysignal.com/2014/01/20/ha...aw-didnt-know/

Last edited by JohnT; 03-09-2018 at 01:38 PM.
  #3077  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:45 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Naw, correct. But I'm not interested in taking the time to properly discuss the Enron debacle with you.
That works for me. I'm not interested in discussing anything at all with you, mainly because you're an idiot, as exemplified by this very post. More below.

This is an example of the type of confused "thinking" that would make any attempt to discuss anything with you a waste of time. In this case, you're confusing two very different issues.
  1. You personally break the law via your own actions, but are not aware that what you're doing is a crime. (This is what your cites are about - at least your first and third; your second cite has no apparent connection at all.)
  2. You don't personally break the law; people who work for you break the law and you should have been aware that they were doing this. (This is what's being discussed here.)

True, both of these situations share the aspect of "not being aware" of something, which is apparently what confused you. But if you're confused by something as simple as that - and this is far from the first time for you - there's not much hope of any meaningful discussion.
  #3078  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:49 PM
wonky's Avatar
wonky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DC area
Posts: 30,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Naw, correct. But I'm gonna play my F-P card by declaring I am not interested in taking the time to properly discuss the Enron debacle with you.

But to answer your question, how about:

https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/21916

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posses...f_stolen_goods

This site is sufficiently right-wing for you: http://dailysignal.com/2014/01/20/ha...aw-didnt-know/
Just to be clear, I'll reiterate:

I have not claimed, nor would I, that ignorance of the law is a defense, generally.
  #3079  
Old 03-09-2018, 02:02 PM
Rick Kitchen's Avatar
Rick Kitchen is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Citrus Heights, CA, USA
Posts: 17,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
I didn't see the show so don't know if this is exactly right, but you can have one: It's Mueller Time
That's it. Awesome.
  #3080  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:23 PM
SteveG1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Van Nuys CA
Posts: 14,230
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonky View Post
All of these threads and I think some are still overestimating the level at which he is operating. Complete seat of the pants, knee-jerk, unthinking, instinctive reaction. That's what he does. In general, he's not contemplating things, thinking them through, planning, plotting, etc.

Does anyone think it would be difficult to hide something from Trump if you wanted to? Does anyone in this thread actually think that would be the slightest struggle, to hide something you didn't want him to know?

Someone was up to some bad shit. For me, whether Trump himself was at the center of that or peripheral to it as people thought to use his power for their own ends is pretty immaterial. I'm happy for a trial to figure that out (won't likely come to that, but I can dream).
As I said already... far too much was going on, and far too much of it was constant. Even a brain dead muskrat would notice something - anything. And Trump with his big mouth had "a way" of saying things that would seem to indicate he did know ("I love WikiLeaks" for just one example). And then the whole "I fired Comey over the Russia thing".

Damn right he knew.

I fully expect as a last resort he WILL try to claim ignorance (or the "too stupid to do it" defense - which is already being floated).

Last edited by SteveG1; 03-09-2018 at 04:28 PM.
  #3081  
Old 03-09-2018, 05:15 PM
SaneBill is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
That works for me.
I really don't know if this post is enough to report for, but thought to just mention here...
  #3082  
Old 03-09-2018, 05:49 PM
Sherrerd's Avatar
Sherrerd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveG1 View Post
...I fully expect as a last resort he WILL try to claim ignorance (or the "too stupid to do it" defense - which is already being floated).
What sinks that as a defense is not only the principle that 'ignorance of the law is no defense,' but in Trump's case, his many actions and utterances in pursuit of the goal of covering up contacts with Russians, intent (carried out in Comey's case) to fire investigators, etc.

"Consciousness of guilt" is demonstrated by the cover-up attempts, and consciousness of guilt is, under US law, circumstantial evidence of guilt.
__________________
__________________

Thread on my books (inexpensive gifts!) https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=866609
  #3083  
Old 03-09-2018, 09:51 PM
j666 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Away for a while
Posts: 7,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonky View Post
Of course there could be. He's a fucking moron ...
You convinced me that his behavior is not just an attempt to distract us, but an attempt to set up a defense of diminished capacity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
I highly doubt if that's true.

Perhaps you can give an example of someone prosecuted for something that was his responsibility to know but that he didn't.
Look into the Park Doctrine.

Last edited by j666; 03-09-2018 at 09:52 PM.
  #3084  
Old 03-09-2018, 10:58 PM
enipla is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 14,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by j666 View Post
You convinced me that his behavior is not just an attempt to distract us, but an attempt to set up a defense of diminished capacity.
Look into the Park Doctrine.
The Park Doctrine. That is good. SCOTUS.

Quote:
The Court held that if someone were to willingly be in charge of a company, and therefore its problems, then he or she willingly accepts the consequences of any illegal practices that his or her company or organization is involved in. An exception is made if the problem is impossible to fix.
While trumps administration is not a 'company' HE SURE IS. An interesting precedence could be used. Just because he claims he did not know, does not mean that he is not culpable.

The indictments against trump must be longer than my arm at this point. He will never live long enough to get through all the court proceedings. The new trump reality show will be trump in court. The TIC channel.
  #3085  
Old 03-10-2018, 07:51 AM
Steve MB is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 13,366
Quote:
Originally Posted by enipla View Post
The new trump reality show will be trump in court.
Now I have a mental image of Judge Judy tearing the Dotard another new one each time he uncorks another bit of nonsense.
__________________
The Internet: Nobody knows if you're a dog. Everybody knows if you're a jackass.
  #3086  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:19 AM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 36,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonky View Post
All of these threads and I think some are still overestimating the level at which he is operating. Complete seat of the pants, knee-jerk, unthinking, instinctive reaction. That's what he does. In general, he's not contemplating things, thinking them through, planning, plotting, etc.

Does anyone think it would be difficult to hide something from Trump if you wanted to? Does anyone in this thread actually think that would be the slightest struggle, to hide something you didn't want him to know?

Someone was up to some bad shit. For me, whether Trump himself was at the center of that or peripheral to it as people thought to use his power for their own ends is pretty immaterial. I'm happy for a trial to figure that out (won't likely come to that, but I can dream).
There is no reason to try and stop the investigation, then. The second he fired Comey, he admitted that there was something to cover up.

I do not understand the need of people who hate Trump to come up with excuses for why he was not involved. He was. We know he was, because he acts like someone who was. If we didn't have all the partisan problems, the second he fired the investigator he would have been impeached. You fire the investigator because you are guilty.
  #3087  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:38 AM
Superdude is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Fortress of Solidude
Posts: 10,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve MB View Post
Now I have a mental image of Judge Judy tearing the Dotard another new one each time he uncorks another bit of nonsense.
THAT I would watch
__________________
I can't help being a gorgeous fiend. It's just the card I drew.
  #3088  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:41 AM
ThelmaLou's Avatar
ThelmaLou is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Neither here nor there
Posts: 16,407
Any guesses on when the Mueller investigation will reach its climax (so to speak)? IOW when will the shit well and truly hit thump's fan? Two months? Six months? Another year? I mean if it goes on until election day 2020...
  #3089  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:43 AM
enipla is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 14,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
Mueller seems to have reason to believe that the Trump campaign was attempting to set up a secret back channel to the Kremlin. Coming up empty on a legitimate reason for this.
I read the link. What, actually, is a back channel? What type of medium are they talking about?
__________________
I don't live in the middle of nowhere, but I can see it from here.
  #3090  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:52 AM
Fear Itself is offline
Cecil's Inner Circle
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Flavortown
Posts: 35,937
Trump lawyers offer interview if investigation wraps in 60 days

I think it is cute that they think they have some leverage against Mueller. But even they think there are months left in the investigation. I think it hits the fan in late summer or early fall, right before the midterm elections.
  #3091  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:54 AM
enipla is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 14,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
Any guesses on when the Mueller investigation will reach its climax (so to speak)? IOW when will the shit well and truly hit thump's fan? Two months? Six months? Another year? I mean if it goes on until election day 2020...
I wonder the same thing. I suspect there are two things happening.

1. Mueller is dotting his I's and crossing his T's.
2. So much new shit comes to light Every. Freeking. Day, that they have to bring in a new investigator to look into it.

I don't believe Mueller is playing politics and is waiting for the right moment to drop the bomb. It just seems that there is SO much shit that he is going to clean it ALL out.
__________________
I don't live in the middle of nowhere, but I can see it from here.
  #3092  
Old 03-10-2018, 09:04 AM
enipla is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 14,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
Trump lawyers offer interview if investigation wraps in 60 days

I think it is cute that they think they have some leverage against Mueller. But even they think there are months left in the investigation. I think it hits the fan in late summer or early fall, right before the midterm elections.
The Fuck? "Stop it already. We don't want you to keep investigating because we are afraid of what you might find".

Bwwaaahaahahah. Mueller probably has enough already. I'm hoping that he is collecting enough that a simple pardon from Pence will not really help trump, and that State AG's are in the batters box.

trump needs prison time. An example needs to be made of him. It's really the only way to secure our democracy.
  #3093  
Old 03-10-2018, 09:21 AM
The Tooth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 4,750
You think that will do it? If your system will still allow the likes of McConnell and Sessions to behave as they have, your democracy will still be broken. You might want to see about enshrining some traditions and norms concerning conflicts of interest and financial disclosure into law, too. Trump's just the symptom of a disease.
__________________
"It would never occur to me to wear pink, just as it would never occur to Michael Douglas to play a poor person." - Sarah Vowell
  #3094  
Old 03-10-2018, 09:38 AM
ThelmaLou's Avatar
ThelmaLou is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Neither here nor there
Posts: 16,407
Quote:
Originally Posted by enipla View Post
...
2. So much new shit comes to light Every. Freeking. Day, that they have to bring in a new investigator to look into it.
This, for sure.

Quote:
I don't believe Mueller is playing politics and is waiting for the right moment to drop the bomb. It just seems that there is SO much shit that he is going to clean it ALL out.
I agree. I think he's playing it absolutely straight. He might be the only straight shooter in Washington.

You know how in crime shows they have an incident room with a board where they put up pictures and draw lines and try to map out the connections among the suspects, victims, locales, dates, etc? I think Mueller must order markers, post-it notes, and string by the case. God, I hope that if they're doing any of this online, the servers are safely tucked away on the dark side of the planet Zephron. To break into this material would be a hacker's dream.
  #3095  
Old 03-10-2018, 09:43 AM
ElvisL1ves is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The land of the mouse
Posts: 50,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
You know how in crime shows they have an incident room with a board where they put up pictures and draw lines and try to map out the connections among the suspects, victims, locales, dates, etc?
Always on glass, too. Whiteboards aren't good enough for TV. Or transparent enough for camera placement.

Yes, it's getting hard to keep track of all the members of the Trump crime syndicate, at least for those of us not still saying "There's nothing there, nothing, nothingburger" and so forth.
  #3096  
Old 03-10-2018, 09:44 AM
The Tooth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 4,750
They need to have all those strings and post-its and photos on some sort of 3D wire lattice or something. A 2D board isn't sufficient to represent the scope of this investigation. New mathematics we haven't invented until now because we didn't need to may be involved as well.
__________________
"It would never occur to me to wear pink, just as it would never occur to Michael Douglas to play a poor person." - Sarah Vowell
  #3097  
Old 03-10-2018, 09:57 AM
running coach's Avatar
running coach is online now
Arms of Steel, Leg of Jello
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Riding my handcycle
Posts: 37,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tooth View Post
They need to have all those strings and post-its and photos on some sort of 3D wire lattice or something. A 2D board isn't sufficient to represent the scope of this investigation. New mathematics we haven't invented until now because we didn't need to may be involved as well.
It's a 4-D investigation.
  #3098  
Old 03-10-2018, 11:51 AM
wonky's Avatar
wonky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DC area
Posts: 30,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by j666 View Post
You convinced me that his behavior is not just an attempt to distract us, but an attempt to set up a defense of diminished capacity.
I think some people keep his actions are in alignment with a plan rather than just the chaotic flailings of an arrogant, unethical idiot.
  #3099  
Old 03-10-2018, 12:06 PM
friedo's Avatar
friedo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 24,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
You know how in crime shows they have an incident room with a board where they put up pictures and draw lines and try to map out the connections among the suspects, victims, locales, dates, etc? I think Mueller must order markers, post-it notes, and string by the case.
For his sake, I hope he's only using Lannigan's.
  #3100  
Old 03-10-2018, 12:13 PM
Defensive Indifference is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 7,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonky View Post
I think some people keep his actions are in alignment with a plan rather than just the chaotic flailings of an arrogant, unethical idiot.
And it's only going to get worse.

"With Key Aides Headed For The Exits, Trump Set To Make More Solo Decisions"

Quote:
The president has long considered himself his own best consultant, saying during the presidential campaign: “I’m speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good brain and I’ve said a lot of things.”

Trump has told confidants recently that he wants to be less reliant on his staff, believing they often give bad advice, and that he plans to follow his own instincts, which he credits with his stunning election, according to two people who requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about private conversations.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/k...llow-instincts

Oh goody!

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 03-10-2018 at 12:14 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:31 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017