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Old 10-03-2019, 10:57 PM
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Will conservatives here reflect on malign ties between conservatism, Republicanism, and Trump?


I haven't seen much if any of this here. He has non supporters here and never trumpers too, but they seem to spend all their time owning the libs. Is it possible for any of them to engage in thoughtful reflection about how they got to here in 2019.

I mean the denial is getting to be a tsunami. How long can you trumpet victory in the face of a great national shame?
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Old 10-03-2019, 11:16 PM
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The OP is rather vague, I'm not quite sure what you are wanting here. As a fiscal liberal but social conservative who voted third party in 2016, I'll give it a stab:


Many Republicans have yearned for someone like Trump, but what they really want is someone like him, but not quite him (but even they themselves don't realize it.) They want someone who boldly stands up and tells the politically incorrect offensive truth. But Trump isn't the 3D chess player they want - he is not a highly intelligent, cunning, savvy strategist - his brain's thought process is "six fireflies blinking randomly in a jar," as a NY Times editorial put it. But he sounds close enough to what they want, that they thought he was what they want.

But also, Trump is the social conservative that many have yearned for - someone who will say things like, "Men are discriminated against, Christians are discriminated against, etc." - because, let's be honest, to a certain extent, there is a considerable amount of anti-men-ism or anti-Christian-ism that goes on in America. And when conservatives found someone who actually scratched that mental itch for them - Trump - the relief and joy he gave them was so intense that they'd go to any extent and do anything for him. It was almost indescribable delight - finally, someone who speaks for us! Many liberals are utterly baffled and confounded by the zeal of this passion - why Trump scratches the itch of these conservatives so satisfyingly. Because everyone wants a leader who they think speaks for them. But even Trump isn't a truly zealous social conservative; he more or less figured out how to scratch these people's itch for political gain.
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Old 10-03-2019, 11:36 PM
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Moving castigation from GD to the Pit.

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Old 10-04-2019, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
I haven't seen much if any of this here. He has non supporters here and never trumpers too, but they seem to spend all their time owning the libs. Is it possible for any of them to engage in thoughtful reflection about how they got to here in 2019.

I mean the denial is getting to be a tsunami. How long can you trumpet victory in the face of a great national shame?
My reflection on Trump’s election is that I now believe the multiverse is real.
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Old 10-04-2019, 04:19 AM
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My reflection on Trump’s election is that I now believe the multiverse is real.
Thank you for your meaningless koan, beneficent guru. And we didn't even need to climb to the mountaintop for it!
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:35 AM
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I think Velocity’s post above is very good, and points up the bizarre psychological distortion in the conservative worldview; that the existence of “a certain amount of anti-Christian (or men, whites, whatever) sentiment” equates to “Christians are being discriminated against”. As far as they’re concerned, only straight white male Christians are really first class American citizens, and allowing others equal rights constitutes “discrimination” against the groups which have historically enjoyed unfair privileges! Even the fact that people are allowed to freely express hostility towards them is intolerable, while they demand the right to say whatever they want about others!
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:42 AM
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I am a small c, New England, William F. Buckley conservative.
I have no fucking idea what the current Republican party is thinking. Their actions do not align with anything I have held to be conservative values.
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:49 AM
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Is it possible for any of them to engage in thoughtful reflection about how they got to here in 2019.
Not on the SDMB, no. You guys can't stand to read it - you feel the immediate need to substitute what you think (so to speak) and then rant against that.

Besides, it isn't necessary - there is no shortage of posters who will tell me what I think no matter what I say.

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Old 10-04-2019, 09:52 AM
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I'm pretty sure the data explains this -- it's about cultural grievance. A big part of conservatism has always been about cultural grievance. Back when the Democratic party was the culturally conservative party, it campaigned on cultural grievance (i.e. racism, bigotry, xenophobia, etc.). And it was quite successful, especially in the most racist parts of the country (i.e. the deep South). The Republicans took control of that with the Southern Strategy, which was successful again. The highest correlator with Trump support that Nate Silver found were google searches for racial slurs. Again and again we're shown that many or most Trump supporters value harming and angering those they don't like -- liberals, immigrants, Muslims, etc. -- far, far more than any actual political principles or achievements.

Cultural grievance explains pretty much all of this. It was always part of the conservative movement -- maybe the biggest part. Trump made it more explicit than anyone since George Wallace, and there were millions of Americans very hungry for such a message. I'll note that this isn't just about racism and ethnic hatred -- it's also about anger at liberals/progressives and cultural change and progress.

Of course there are many individual conservatives that don't share these cultural grievances. But on a macro-scale, in my understanding the data strongly suggests that cultural grievance is, by far, the best explanation.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 10-04-2019 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:57 AM
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Should have added that I'm not a conservative, so that may not have been what the OP is looking for.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:18 AM
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Should have added that I'm not a conservative, so that may not have been what the OP is looking for.
But it's what the OP was gonna get no matter what.

Like I said, threads like the OP get mostly two kinds of responses - liberals telling other liberals what conservatives really think, and liberals telling conservatives what conservatives really think.

If thoughtful reflection were going to come from such a poisoned well as the OP, Bone would not have moved it to the Pit. Yet here we are.

Regards,
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  #12  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:26 AM
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I am a small c, New England, William F. Buckley conservative.
The William F. Buckley who wrote this?

Quote:
... the central question that emerges ... is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas where it does not predominate numerically? The sobering answer is Yes—the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:34 AM
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Not on the SDMB, no. You guys can't stand to read it - you feel the immediate need to substitute what you think (so to speak) and then rant against that.

Besides, it isn't necessary - there is no shortage of posters who will tell me what I think no matter what I say.

Regards,
Shodan
So you won't even attempt to answer the question of "why Trump". Instead, you would rather play the victim.

I guess this behaviour actually does explain rather a lot.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:37 AM
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So you won't even attempt to answer the question of "why Trump". Instead, you would rather play the victim.

I guess this behaviour actually does explain rather a lot.
Hey, quit being so hard on him! These are very fragile people. The slightest criticism can shatter them into a million shards of white-hot rage and fear.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:42 AM
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Hey, quit being so hard on him! These are very fragile people. The slightest criticism can shatter them into a million shards of white-hot rage and fear.
But Shodan has a point, though - every time we've done threads like this ("Trump supporters, why do you ____,"), a great deal of posts in the thread end up not being actual conservatives or Trump voters, but rather, Trump opponents trying to project their own analysis or guesswork onto how Trump voters actually think. That rather clutters up the discussion with radio noise.

It's kind of like the IMHO threads we have about women - "Women, why do ____?", and around 70% of the posts end up being men trying to mansplain, or project their own assumptions about women, onto women - rather than women actually being the ones to say how they feel. It's rather counterproductive. Imagine if we did threads about "Muslims/LGBT/Jews/(insert category,) why do you____?" and then it's a whole bunch of people who aren't Muslims, or LGBT, or Jews, jumping in with their opinions.

If the OP is asking for conservative input, wouldn't it be best to, you know, let conservatives be the ones providing the feedback?
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:57 AM
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If the OP is asking for conservative input, wouldn't it be best to, you know, let conservatives be the ones providing the feedback?
Don't even try to imply that this hasn't been attempted here more than once. Hundreds of times stabbed in the back with a rusty butter knife, twice shy.
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:59 AM
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If the OP is asking for conservative input, wouldn't it be best to, you know, let conservatives be the ones providing the feedback?
Well, we're waiting... Have you seen any willing to actually provide said feedback?
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Old 10-04-2019, 11:00 AM
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Well, we're waiting... Have you seen any willing to actually provide said feedback?
And he had the balls to quote Shodan, the person voted most likely to shit all over such attempts.
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Old 10-04-2019, 11:01 AM
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I don't identify as a conservative; if anything I'm more moderate than anything else.

I think that there were really two parts to the modern Republican party - there were the small-c conservatives like DrFidelius mentions, who weren't necessarily religiously or socially conservative, but held a more... philosophical set of views about government roles, government spending, personal responsibility, etc... These were the people who dominated the party through the party's time up until Southern Democrats defected en-masse to the GOP in the 1970s.

And that's when the wheels started to wobble significantly. These people brought in a super-heavy dose of racist-oriented policies, and aligned themselves with the Christian Right/extremely socially conservative elements.

Somewhere along the way (by my estimation, about 1989-1990ish), they discovered the power of talk radio and painting the political struggle as more than that; it now became a cultural struggle where basically "good God-fearing, family-values-oriented people who work hard and save their money" were pitted against some combination of de-facto criminal illegal immigrants, shiftless, criminal and uncouth urban dwellers, or wealthy, bleeding-heart East coast liberals who are all about spending someone else's money (Yours!) to engage in futile efforts to help the shiftless urban people/illegal immigrants. In essence, the non-white, non-suburban crowd was portrayed as lazy criminals, and the whites who wanted to help them were portrayed as effete Easterners who want to spend hard-earned tax money to help these people. And they portrayed the efforts for religious inclusion and/or limiting state-mandated religious displays as attacks on faith, these hypothetical "conservative values", and their very way of life, as if having to allow the Koran to be displayed at the courthouse alongside the Bible somehow attacks Christians.

Now imagine two and a half decades of relentless propaganda about these topics toward a specific set of the population- white, rural or suburban, and religious(usually Evangelical or at least not mainline Protestant or Catholic), augmented by the rise of the Internet and the echo-chamber effect and ability for the more nutty elements to self-support and feed each other, and a hefty dose of corporate astroturfing, and you got the Tea Party. Fast forward a few years, and now you have a presidential candidate who in essence isn't playing by the rules- he's "telling it like it is" (or should be), and sticking up for THEM (the white, suburban/rural, strict-christian crowd), and you get someone that crowd is willing to back wholeheartedly, despite his peccadilloes and general retardation otherwise.

Meanwhile, the toxic radiation from all this propaganda is still irradiating people who may not have been totally on board with this stuff, and somewhere it resonated- there were/are a LOT of people who didn't like Trump at all, but were totally against voting Democrat. Maybe they felt that Congress would rein in his stupidity, maybe they felt like he'd actually attempt to govern in a more conventional fashion, and almost assuredly, they thought Congress would retain more independence in policy making and thought than they have. Maybe they were just so against certain issues that they felt that having Trump in office was the lesser evil vs. some Democratic policies. Maybe they felt that even though they didn't like Trump, they still didn't feel like the Democrats were aiming anything their way. Either way, there were a lot of people who voted for the "R" after his name, and not for Trump himself in 2016.

That's how we got him, in my view. I suspect that last crowd may vote differently come 2020; he probably won't be seen as the lesser evil any longer by many.
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Old 10-04-2019, 11:06 AM
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I suspect that last crowd may vote differently come 2020; he probably won't be seen as the lesser evil any longer by many.
Except that the old "Good vs. Evil" thing isn't a factor any more for a lot of them-the only thing that matters is "winning", and it really doesn't matter how it is accomplished.
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Old 10-04-2019, 11:13 AM
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Except that the old "Good vs. Evil" thing isn't a factor any more for a lot of them-the only thing that matters is "winning", and it really doesn't matter how it is accomplished.
Can’t they still phrase it as “winning against evil” in particular, instead of just phrasing it as “winning” in general?
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Old 10-04-2019, 11:14 AM
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But Shodan has a point, though - every time we've done threads like this ("Trump supporters, why do you ____,"), a great deal of posts in the thread end up not being actual conservatives or Trump voters, but rather, Trump opponents trying to project their own analysis or guesswork onto how Trump voters actually think. That rather clutters up the discussion with radio noise.

It's kind of like the IMHO threads we have about women - "Women, why do ____?", and around 70% of the posts end up being men trying to mansplain, or project their own assumptions about women, onto women - rather than women actually being the ones to say how they feel. It's rather counterproductive. Imagine if we did threads about "Muslims/LGBT/Jews/(insert category,) why do you____?" and then it's a whole bunch of people who aren't Muslims, or LGBT, or Jews, jumping in with their opinions.

If the OP is asking for conservative input, wouldn't it be best to, you know, let conservatives be the ones providing the feedback?
Fair enough. I realized after my first post that the question was aimed at conservatives.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 10-04-2019 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 10-04-2019, 11:20 AM
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Maybe they were just so against certain issues that they felt that having Trump in office was the lesser evil vs. some Democratic policies. Maybe they felt that even though they didn't like Trump, they still didn't feel like the Democrats were aiming anything their way. Either way, there were a lot of people who voted for the "R" after his name, and not for Trump himself in 2016.

That's how we got him, in my view. I suspect that last crowd may vote differently come 2020; he probably won't be seen as the lesser evil any longer by many.
I used to think that Trump voters considered Trump to be the "lesser of two evils" when compared to Hillary, but after hanging out on Facebook with a lot of Trump voters, I'm..........now not convinced that that's how they see him at all.

They don't see him as being "evil but lesser". They see him as an outright, positive good. They post many memes or posts that praise him as a hero of courage who is standing up to the malignant internal and external enemies of America. I don't get any sense from them that "Trump is distasteful but we'll just have to bear with him while we hold our noses, since the (D)s stink even worse." He gets lionized, held up as a knight in shining armor.
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Old 10-04-2019, 12:11 PM
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Don't even try to imply that this hasn't been attempted here more than once. Hundreds of times stabbed in the back with a rusty butter knife, twice shy.
This. Exactly this.
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Old 10-04-2019, 12:20 PM
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Not on the SDMB, no. You guys can't stand to read it - you feel the immediate need to substitute what you think (so to speak) and then rant against that.

Besides, it isn't necessary - there is no shortage of posters who will tell me what I think no matter what I say.

Regards,
Shodan
So, you hate puppies and babies, is what you are saying? What is wrong with you?
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Old 10-04-2019, 12:28 PM
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Don't even try to imply that this hasn't been attempted here more than once. Hundreds of times stabbed in the back with a rusty butter knife, twice shy.
You poor beleaguered martyr. Need a tissue?

All the hundreds of times you have reached out to the vermin/insect/Nazi/racist/scum, and they still won't play with you the way you want.

You poor misunderstood dear.

Regards,
Shodan
  #27  
Old 10-04-2019, 12:39 PM
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But Shodan has a point, though - every time we've done threads like this ("Trump supporters, why do you ____,"), a great deal of posts in the thread end up not being actual conservatives or Trump voters, but rather, Trump opponents trying to project their own analysis or guesswork onto how Trump voters actually think. That rather clutters up the discussion with radio noise.
True, but Shodan could have come in here and answered the question, could he have not? Has he done so to your satisfaction? I mean, here was his response to the OP:

Quote:
Not on the SDMB, no. You guys can't stand to read it - you feel the immediate need to substitute what you think (so to speak) and then rant against that.

Besides, it isn't necessary - there is no shortage of posters who will tell me what I think no matter what I say.
I mean, to me, this is a clear "no". Why he chose to start with attacking the "SDMB" and "you guys" (including the OP?) instead of merely stating "no, not I", I have no idea.

But don't let his refusal to answer the question directly distract from the thread. If non-conservatives answer the Q, then ignore them.

Last edited by JohnT; 10-04-2019 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 10-04-2019, 12:44 PM
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I'm one of those evangelical social conservatives that never drunk the Trump kool-aid. I haven't said one supportive thing for Trump, as far as I know. Not on line and not in real life. I did not vote for him and will not vote for him. I've made my opinion very clear to all the members of my family, who support him rather fanatically, especially my mom, sister, and niece. Even my wife, who is an immigrant herself, voted for him. I've tried to clue them in that they are putting their faith in a man who has no business being trusted. I guess that makes me a "never-Trumper" conservative.

I would be thrilled if he were impeached. THRILLED. I much prefer Pence. Although I'm not sure how to trust most any Republican these days as they have all sold their political souls for this charlatan who has betrayed so many conservative principles and is an international embarrassment.

I've got enough thoughts/opinions on this to write 40 pages, but I'll sum it up in two general reasons:

1) Trump does not hold his own conservative principles. As Velocity said above: ..."even Trump isn't a truly zealous social conservative; he more or less figured out how to scratch these people's itch for political gain."

He was pro-choice / pro-Planned Parenthood before he suddenly was not. When asked to weigh in on pro-life positions, it was obvious he had never even thought about the issue past sound bites he got from TV or something. He was pro gun-control before. He hobnobbed with NY liberals. Didn't the Clintons even go to his wedding? Something like that. Trump is no conservative. He just plays one on TV.

2) His policies are an embarrassment and should be anathema to most Republicans. Free Trade is a good thing. NAFTA was good. A TPP would be great. Instead, he spends all his time scuttling free trade, tariff this and tariff that (and every time on a daily whim, not some well-thought-out policy). His praising of Kim Jong Un and kow-towing to North Korea makes me want to vomit. Doesn't he realize what they do to Christians in that country? Every move he has made with regards to N. Korea is vile. His love/hate bromance with Putin is almost as bad. We should be building strong alliances with Western leaders and free Asia. Reagan is rolling over in his grave.

And along those lines, and what gripes my cookies on a DAILY basis is Trump (and yes, I admit, 99% of the Republican Party's) position on immigration. I won't go into it here, but I'm pretty much an "open borders" guy. I love immigration and the fact that folks want to come here and try to make good for themselves and their families. Not only would I let just about all of them in, I'd give them a grubstake.

I live in a part of Virginia (Prince William County) that was one the forefront of harassing immigrants. Stopping them for no reason; rounding them up for deportation, etc. Whenever a Republican candidate touted this as a bona fide, I did not vote for them. And this predates Trump. It sickens me.

Well, those are the thoughts of this never-Trump conservative. I'm not sure if I answered the OP, because in all this writing I kindof forgot what it said. But you asked? I answered.
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Old 10-04-2019, 12:48 PM
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I'm one of those evangelical social conservatives that never drunk the Trump kool-aid. I haven't said one supportive thing for Trump, as far as I know. Not on line and not in real life. I did not vote for him and will not vote for him. I've made my opinion very clear to all the members of my family, who support him rather fanatically, especially my mom, sister, and niece. Even my wife, who is an immigrant herself, voted for him. I've tried to clue them in that they are putting their faith in a man who has no business being trusted. I guess that makes me a "never-Trumper" conservative.

I would be thrilled if he were impeached. THRILLED. I much prefer Pence. Although I'm not sure how to trust most any Republican these days as they have all sold their political souls for this charlatan who has betrayed so many conservative principles and is an international embarrassment.

I've got enough thoughts/opinions on this to write 40 pages, but I'll sum it up in two general reasons:

1) Trump does not hold his own conservative principles. As Velocity said above: ..."even Trump isn't a truly zealous social conservative; he more or less figured out how to scratch these people's itch for political gain."

He was pro-choice / pro-Planned Parenthood before he suddenly was not. When asked to weigh in on pro-life positions, it was obvious he had never even thought about the issue past sound bites he got from TV or something. He was pro gun-control before. He hobnobbed with NY liberals. Didn't the Clintons even go to his wedding? Something like that. Trump is no conservative. He just plays one on TV.

2) His policies are an embarrassment and should be anathema to most Republicans. Free Trade is a good thing. NAFTA was good. A TPP would be great. Instead, he spends all his time scuttling free trade, tariff this and tariff that (and every time on a daily whim, not some well-thought-out policy). His praising of Kim Jong Un and kow-towing to North Korea makes me want to vomit. Doesn't he realize what they do to Christians in that country? Every move he has made with regards to N. Korea is vile. His love/hate bromance with Putin is almost as bad. We should be building strong alliances with Western leaders and free Asia. Reagan is rolling over in his grave.

And along those lines, and what gripes my cookies on a DAILY basis is Trump (and yes, I admit, 99% of the Republican Party's) position on immigration. I won't go into it here, but I'm pretty much an "open borders" guy. I love immigration and the fact that folks want to come here and try to make good for themselves and their families. Not only would I let just about all of them in, I'd give them a grubstake.

I live in a part of Virginia (Prince William County) that was one the forefront of harassing immigrants. Stopping them for no reason; rounding them up for deportation, etc. Whenever a Republican candidate touted this as a bona fide, I did not vote for them. And this predates Trump. It sickens me.

Well, those are the thoughts of this never-Trump conservative. I'm not sure if I answered the OP, because in all this writing I kindof forgot what it said. But you asked? I answered.
Thanks for contributing this! I don't recall interacting with you before, but I hope you'll give your opinion on other things as well. Always good to hear from decent people with different outlooks.
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Old 10-04-2019, 12:49 PM
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Thank you, divemaster. That was one of the most interesting and thoughtful posts I’ve read in a long time.
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Old 10-04-2019, 12:55 PM
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Thank you, divemaster. That was one of the most interesting and thoughtful posts I’ve read in a long time.
I agree, and I hope you stick around for years to come.
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Old 10-04-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quaded.
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Old 10-04-2019, 01:11 PM
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Not on the SDMB, no. You guys can't stand to read it - you feel the immediate need to substitute what you think (so to speak) and then rant against that.

Besides, it isn't necessary - there is no shortage of posters who will tell me what I think no matter what I say.

Regards,
Shodan
Am I wrong in saying that you actually like to make posts that liberals "can't stand to read" and do it a lot? There is some agency in this that you have. That's kind of what I'm thinking of for my OP. In that event you are right, the answer for you is "no" and you are not capable of reflection.
  #34  
Old 10-04-2019, 01:16 PM
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But it's what the OP was gonna get no matter what.

Like I said, threads like the OP get mostly two kinds of responses - liberals telling other liberals what conservatives really think, and liberals telling conservatives what conservatives really think.

If thoughtful reflection were going to come from such a poisoned well as the OP, Bone would not have moved it to the Pit. Yet here we are.

Regards,
Shodan
Well I don't start lots of threads and I might have fired this up wrongly. If it's poisoned and you don't think Cs can participate so be it. Sorry about that one.

But it can certainly serve for liberals to reflect. There can also very easily be a well worded OP for conservatives to reflect on a real national crisis.

My question still stands no matter who is considering it.
  #35  
Old 10-04-2019, 01:22 PM
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Fair enough. I realized after my first post that the question was aimed at conservatives.
Well in formulating the OP I just wanted to ask the question to the board about whether the conservatives would be able to reflect on it. I have been told it is poisoned but if it is it was by carelessness on my part. I didn't just want to ask conservatives about their opinions, but about the way the board deals with reality.
  #36  
Old 10-04-2019, 01:25 PM
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Not on the SDMB, no. You guys can't stand to read it - you feel the immediate need to substitute what you think (so to speak) and then rant against that.

Besides, it isn't necessary - there is no shortage of posters who will tell me what I think no matter what I say.
Also unnecessary. As it turns out, "hurrh durrh suck it, libs" is not as abstruse an ethos as it may first appear.
  #37  
Old 10-04-2019, 01:54 PM
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I'm one of those evangelical social conservatives that never drunk the Trump kool-aid. I haven't said one supportive thing for Trump, as far as I know. Not on line and not in real life. I did not vote for him and will not vote for him. I've made my opinion very clear to all the members of my family, who support him rather fanatically, especially my mom, sister, and niece. Even my wife, who is an immigrant herself, voted for him. I've tried to clue them in that they are putting their faith in a man who has no business being trusted. I guess that makes me a "never-Trumper" conservative.

I would be thrilled if he were impeached. THRILLED. I much prefer Pence. Although I'm not sure how to trust most any Republican these days as they have all sold their political souls for this charlatan who has betrayed so many conservative principles and is an international embarrassment.

I've got enough thoughts/opinions on this to write 40 pages, but I'll sum it up in two general reasons:

1) Trump does not hold his own conservative principles. As Velocity said above: ..."even Trump isn't a truly zealous social conservative; he more or less figured out how to scratch these people's itch for political gain."

He was pro-choice / pro-Planned Parenthood before he suddenly was not. When asked to weigh in on pro-life positions, it was obvious he had never even thought about the issue past sound bites he got from TV or something. He was pro gun-control before. He hobnobbed with NY liberals. Didn't the Clintons even go to his wedding? Something like that. Trump is no conservative. He just plays one on TV.

2) His policies are an embarrassment and should be anathema to most Republicans. Free Trade is a good thing. NAFTA was good. A TPP would be great. Instead, he spends all his time scuttling free trade, tariff this and tariff that (and every time on a daily whim, not some well-thought-out policy). His praising of Kim Jong Un and kow-towing to North Korea makes me want to vomit. Doesn't he realize what they do to Christians in that country? Every move he has made with regards to N. Korea is vile. His love/hate bromance with Putin is almost as bad. We should be building strong alliances with Western leaders and free Asia. Reagan is rolling over in his grave.

And along those lines, and what gripes my cookies on a DAILY basis is Trump (and yes, I admit, 99% of the Republican Party's) position on immigration. I won't go into it here, but I'm pretty much an "open borders" guy. I love immigration and the fact that folks want to come here and try to make good for themselves and their families. Not only would I let just about all of them in, I'd give them a grubstake.

I live in a part of Virginia (Prince William County) that was one the forefront of harassing immigrants. Stopping them for no reason; rounding them up for deportation, etc. Whenever a Republican candidate touted this as a bona fide, I did not vote for them. And this predates Trump. It sickens me.

Well, those are the thoughts of this never-Trump conservative. I'm not sure if I answered the OP, because in all this writing I kindof forgot what it said. But you asked? I answered.
I’m not a conservative, for a long time I considered myself one but with so many caveats that I don’t think I was ever really one. I’m definitely not one now. But I do share some values with conservatives at least. Your thoughts above are very closely aligned to mine. Trump is not a conservative, he’s an opportunist who has tried to make himself appeal to conservatives, and in the process has also become a darling to the “alt right” (which are conservatives the way that anarcho-communists are liberals) which he refuses to distance himself from. The way the Republican Party has submitted to his leadership and policies sickens me as it does you.
  #38  
Old 10-04-2019, 02:03 PM
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Am I wrong in saying that you actually like to make posts that liberals "can't stand to read" and do it a lot?
That a lot of liberals, particularly on the SDMB, can't stand to read something with which they disagree but they find difficult to refute, is more an observation than an intention.
Quote:
There is some agency in this that you have.
There is not a lot I can do to make people read what I actually post, rather than have them react to what they think I post, or want me to have posted, or have them tell me what I posted and what I meant by it.

It is not possible to phrase something carefully enough that a person with enough of the right kind of motivation cannot misinterpret it. Certainly not on the SDMB. Cite: half the posts in this thread, any other thread about Trump, any thread about race, any thread about gender, or any other thread that creates a disturbance in the liberal Force.
Quote:
But it can certainly serve for liberals to reflect.
It could be. I rather doubt, however, if you are going to get a whole bunch of thoughtful reflection from liberals in the Pit about what they should have done, or not done, that contributed to Trump's Presidency. Unless 'he is even worse than I thought' counts as thoughtful reflection.
Quote:
I didn't just want to ask conservatives about their opinions, but about the way the board deals with reality.
The board deals with reality by Pitting it. Sometimes it doesn't work, which leaves it rather at a loss.

Regards,
Shodan
  #39  
Old 10-04-2019, 02:06 PM
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It's so great that a thoughtful conservative contributed to this thread! Thanks so much, divemaster! Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
  #40  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:11 PM
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It's so great that a thoughtful conservative contributed to this thread! Thanks so much, divemaster! Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
Well, I do appreciate that. Back in the day I contributed more to the political and cultural debates here. Back when having a different political viewpoint or opinion could be debated, with reasonable give-and-take. But nowdays, having a non-prevailing opinion (and on the SDMB, that's what a "conservative" position is) is not just seen as different, or even wrong. Now it's "evil."

"I'm pro-life; I believe life begins..."

You hate women!

"I believe in a strong second amendment right to..."

You're responsible for childrens' murders!

"I belong to an evangelical church and believe that Jesus..."

You're part of a hate group!

I don't need that kind of "debate." So I mostly keep my mouth shut. I don't have the time or energy to keep up my end of a "debate" under the circumstances common to this board.

The only reason I posted in this thread is so I could prove that unicorns exist (lol), and there is at least one conservative who can see that the emperor has no clothes. But keep in mind, in many ways the issues I have with Trump are that he is not conservative enough. Before you start appreciating me too much, reflect that I would likely be quite happy with a President Pence. (At least a "pre-Trump" Pence).
  #41  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:21 PM
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That a lot of liberals, particularly on the SDMB, can't stand to read something with which they disagree but they find difficult to refute, is more an observation than an intention.
There is not a lot I can do to make people read what I actually post, rather than have them react to what they think I post, or want me to have posted, or have them tell me what I posted and what I meant by it.

It is not possible to phrase something carefully enough that a person with enough of the right kind of motivation cannot misinterpret it. Certainly not on the SDMB. Cite: half the posts in this thread, any other thread about Trump, any thread about race, any thread about gender, or any other thread that creates a disturbance in the liberal Force.
It could be. I rather doubt, however, if you are going to get a whole bunch of thoughtful reflection from liberals in the Pit about what they should have done, or not done, that contributed to Trump's Presidency. Unless 'he is even worse than I thought' counts as thoughtful reflection.
The board deals with reality by Pitting it. Sometimes it doesn't work, which leaves it rather at a loss.

Regards,
Shodan
The topic isn't what liberals should have done though. It's what are the commonalities or ties between conservatism, Republicanism, and trumpism. Clearly you won't "like" the liberal responses. So what? Why does that mean you can never be understood. You're at it a lot for someone who says they have no voice.

Your pessimism is operative when you can't defend something. When you think you can you have no such objection.

Are you saying that there are no ties between the three things? He is a republican and he is doing lots of conservative stuff, in addition to being unfit for office. Those are facts. Is that too partisan for you to address in any way? Facts are too partisan?

Any conservative who admits trump is unfit for office might have some insight, if they are brave. Will you?

You sound like a miserable and hopeless eternal victim. Why are you here?
  #42  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:22 PM
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Fair enough, divemaster. I still really appreciate you. It makes sense that you wouldn’t mind a President Pence, and you are clearheaded about why Trump is horrendous, period. You and I would disagree on many topics, but I would emerge from a conversation without that feeling of dumbfounded despair I would (and do) with any Trump supporter.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 10-04-2019 at 03:23 PM.
  #43  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:27 PM
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I'm one of those evangelical social conservatives that never drunk the Trump kool-aid. I haven't said one supportive thing for Trump, as far as I know. Not on line and not in real life. I did not vote for him and will not vote for him. I've made my opinion very clear to all the members of my family, who support him rather fanatically, especially my mom, sister, and niece. Even my wife, who is an immigrant herself, voted for him. I've tried to clue them in that they are putting their faith in a man who has no business being trusted. I guess that makes me a "never-Trumper" conservative.
...
Well, those are the thoughts of this never-Trump conservative. I'm not sure if I answered the OP, because in all this writing I kindof forgot what it said. But you asked? I answered.
What are the major planks in your personal platform which identify you as a conservative? Do you have "single issues" that are motivating you?

Last edited by drad dog; 10-04-2019 at 03:27 PM.
  #44  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:28 PM
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He or she mentioned three (to start with) in post 40.
  #45  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:35 PM
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He or she mentioned three (to start with) in post 40.
Fair enough. But they are chosen to be examples of controversial single issues.

A lot of these are issues that are used to marshall support from people who believe in them very strongly, but are are being pushed for electoral advantage, by people who don't particularly care, if you follow me.

Single issue activists on the right in other words. Is this single issue activism healthy for the country, or the electorate?
  #46  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:43 PM
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I’ll let divemaster speak for him/herself, but it sounded like he/she had a cohesive, well-rounded world view that aligns with, say, much of Pence’s agenda pre-veep. No reason to suspect singleminded “one issue” obsessiveness. Those tend to be Trump voters, right?
  #47  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:46 PM
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I am also not a conservative, and I don’t pretend to speak for any. But today I saw something that quoted an apparently self-avowed supporter of Trump, and I think it’s pertinent here. I hope the link to the tweet works:

https://twitter.com/jaredpolis/statu...598349825?s=21

It shows a screenshot from what I think is Reddit, and the supporter of the President says this about the current impeachment inquiry and Trump’s reaching out to foreign governments for political dirt: “I think what most liberals are missing is that this isn’t about right and wrong, it’s about winning and losing. I’ve attached my entire worldview to this man and I am going down with the ship. Not one of you is going to convince me otherwise.”
  #48  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:53 PM
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Yes. I posted this earlier today in the “simple question” thread:

“Don’t you get it? Real life, including political matters, is just a sport. There are exactly two sides, and you’re either in one side, or the other. And there’s a score — two unambiguous numbers that increase over time, one for one side and one for the other.

At least, that’s exactly how every Republican I’ve ever met sees the world. Why, I have no idea. I really don’t.”
  #49  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:02 PM
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You sound like a miserable and hopeless eternal victim. Why are you here?
Apparently for thoughtful reflection.

But come on now - do you even notice what's happening? You claim you want serious discussion. I point out how that probably can't happen because Dopers don't read things they are afraid might contradict them. Then divemaster posts the way you claim you want, and you don't even see his three points.
Quote:
But it can certainly serve for liberals to reflect.
followed by
Quote:
The topic isn't what liberals should have done though.
The SDMB never disappoints.

Regards,
Shodan
  #50  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:03 PM
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Yes. I posted this earlier today in the “simple question” thread:

“Don’t you get it? Real life, including political matters, is just a sport. There are exactly two sides, and you’re either in one side, or the other. And there’s a score — two unambiguous numbers that increase over time, one for one side and one for the other.

At least, that’s exactly how every Republican I’ve ever met sees the world. Why, I have no idea. I really don’t.”

In a thread last year, the question was asked why liberals tend to take electoral defeat harder than conservatives (YMMV, of course.) One theory put forth was that many conservatives tend to see it as akin to a football game, where Red outscored Blue 34-27 in the Electoral Super Bowl (or, conversely, maybe lost to the Blues 17-10.)


(That's not to say, of course, that people don't take sports losing well - we all know people who lose their shit because of a stinging sports loss, maybe for years or decades. Bostonians were smarting over the Bill Buckner game for sixteen years. But the mindset is often different.)
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