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  #151  
Old 03-11-2012, 05:31 PM
Unauthorized Cinnamon is offline
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Lord, the ending sucks.
SPOILER:
Look, if you're going to have a lame resolution, just go ahead and make it a happy lame resolution. We'd all acknowledge that the storytelling could have been more complex, challenging, and unpredictable, perhaps, but we'd probably be satisfied to see Shepard go the traditional victorious hero route, willing to die, seeming to die, and thereby saving the galaxy, but then miraculously saved and having a nice little coda where he/she is drinking with Garrus, Liara, and Paramour of choice. Cliche, sure, but cliche well done can be good.

Or, go for the pure tear-jerker ending, where Shepard needs to die to fuel the Crucible, and everyone is sad, but goes about building their lives in the knowledge that they are safe forever. (Except perhaps for Kaidan/Ash, who will never be sure that Shepard's really dead, poor things!)

But WTF is this shit? Suddenly three options are introduced that have no narrative lead-in, and as noted above, an explanation of the Reapers that makes no goddamn sense. And while the choice is "hard" in a contrived way, when you actually chose, there isn't any difference in what you see afterwards. No one bothered to include any cut scenes showing why your choice matters (unless you really have a thing about blue, yellow, or green). Not even Joker mourning EDI or Tali being like "WTF now" when the relays get destroyed or something. Just random scenes that don't make sense, of your crew looking inexplicably delighted to be seeing the rainforest, and a grandpa on the moon (?) telling this kid stories of Shepard, without, once again, any variation or detail depending on what choices you made.

I also agree that the gameplay at the end was anticlimactic, and the glacial limping really got on my nerves.

So yes, can we pretend this is a fever dream as Shepard lies unconscious from the beam up to the Citadel, and start again from there with something resembling competent storytelling?
  #152  
Old 03-12-2012, 06:22 AM
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Good Og, those endings were terrible.

The only minutely redeeming feature in them was the fact that:
SPOILER:
The Stargazer, the grandpa telling Shepard stories at the end, is voiced by Buzz Aldrin.
  #153  
Old 03-12-2012, 09:09 AM
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Was he? Thought he sounded kind of familiar. What bugged me most was that they missed the chance to play BOC's Don't Fear the Reaper over the credits...well, that and
SPOILER:
all the other nonsense that makes no sense. Why was the Normandy in a relay jump when it should have been fighting? What's Liara doing on the random alien planet when I took her to London? Also, the galaxy's screwed no matter what ending you get - with no mass relays that massive fleet you've just assembled is now stuck in the sol system, nobody can go home again and the Citadel is destroyed.

This is why the idea that Harbinger (who was also wasted - built up as the villain in 2, appears for all of a minute in 3!) blasting Shepard unconscious and him hallucinating the last bit makes more sense. In the 'best' ending you hear Shepard take a breath under some concrete rubble...well, he was on the Citadel that blew up, and the Citadel ain't made of concrete.


I managed to get the
SPOILER:
quarians and geth to make nice
- did some missions in the wrong order. Although it looks like
SPOILER:
Legion
is doomed no matter what you do.
  #154  
Old 03-12-2012, 09:39 AM
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Has anyone else had problems ME3 correctly importing the choices made in ME2? I have three different Sheps, all three of them saved Wrex on Virmire yet when I import them in ME3 it says that Wrex died in all three. WTF?

I miss Wrex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kobayashi View Post
I managed to get the
SPOILER:
quarians and geth to make nice
Me too.
  #155  
Old 03-12-2012, 10:04 AM
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The ending...

SPOILER:
I agree with everyone that the ending is terrible. How can that be the resolution when we've already demonstrated that there can be peace between organics and synthetics, like with the geth and EDI? There should at least be an option to be able to persuade the catalyst.

But I do sort of, almost see the idea behind the reapers. If organics creating synthetics that ending destroying their creators is inevitable, then it does makes a weird sort of sense that creating synthetics that culls all the organic capable of creating synthetics before they are able to do so and destroy all life in the galaxy. Of course, why they leave all this advanced tech around to help boost the technology of the races they spare is beyond me.
  #156  
Old 03-12-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRojelio View Post
Has anyone else had problems ME3 correctly importing the choices made in ME2? I have three different Sheps, all three of them saved Wrex on Virmire yet when I import them in ME3 it says that Wrex died in all three. WTF?
FWIW, I'm still working on my first playthrough, but I did save Wrex and he does show up. This was an import from a character who I played all the way through both ME 1 and 2.
  #157  
Old 03-12-2012, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRojelio View Post
Has anyone else had problems ME3 correctly importing the choices made in ME2? I have three different Sheps, all three of them saved Wrex on Virmire yet when I import them in ME3 it says that Wrex died in all three. WTF?

I miss Wrex.
For what it's worth I can confirm a live Wrex is possible. I have him in my game because I was able to keep him alive in ME1.

ETA: oops, had my window open so long before responding I didn't see FH's confirmation, sorry for being redundant.

Last edited by Quimby; 03-12-2012 at 11:55 AM.
  #158  
Old 03-12-2012, 01:14 PM
Unauthorized Cinnamon is offline
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If you hated the ending enough to want to take action, check out the Demand a Better Ending FB group, as well as the online petition. There's also a lot of high quality wishful thinking on the Bioware social boards - people have come up with alternatives and also just a different interpretation of the events shown that are much better storytelling than Bioware dumped at the end of this game.

I'd like to believe that BW/EA really is having us on, but the economics indicate that no, they're not being clever and daring, but rather they bowed to pressure to release a huge moneymaker quickly, and hastily rewrote the ending because it had been leaked. I'm still writing them a letter though. I know many people would go ballistic if this happened, but I would actually pay some cash money for a DLC with a revamped ending. Like Shepard, I won't give up, even though it seems hopeless!
  #159  
Old 03-12-2012, 02:46 PM
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I haven't gotten to the ending (I have to negotiate with my kids for XBox time) but as long as I get to hand Kai Leng his own ass at some point, I'll be happy (until the ending).
  #160  
Old 03-12-2012, 07:32 PM
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The BioWare forums motivation thread has some corkers. Xzibit weighs in on Reaper motivations. The motivations of an even more evil bunch, EA.

Also; Tali's face. That one, sadly, isn't a joke.

The problem is that when the trilogy is as good as it is the crap moments stick out even more. Kevin Smith sums up the game.
  #161  
Old 03-12-2012, 08:53 PM
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I did my own little fanfic to suggest a more coherent (it could hardly be less) motivation/origin for the Reapers. Kind of spoilery discussion of Bioware's explanation is included, so beware. My goal was to explain
SPOILER:
  • where the Reapers came from
  • why they might go into hiding and come out only cyclically to reap
  • why they look like big scary bugs, other than "hey, we should make our bad guys scary looking!"
  • why they're simultaneously so contemptuous and sure of their superiority, while also being pretty incoherent about why
I also get a kick out of the idea that the superior twats are really just tractors with delusions of grandeur, and I think it paralells the Geth story nicely.
  #162  
Old 03-12-2012, 10:27 PM
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I liked the endings. I think they desperately needed some sort of Fallout-style epilogue to follow up with and
SPOILER:
the Normandy crash scene is clearly a ham-fisted way of getting a cheesy Adam and Eve ending for the Synthesis path and is completely pointless for the other two
but overall, it was the sort of epic finale that I was expecting for the series.

I don't agree with the idea that the Geth themes in the three games
SPOILER:
invalidate the Citadel's presentation of a synthetic/organic split as being inevitable. Sure, the Geth are, for the time being, willing to be friendly, but who's to say someone else won't make a less sympathetic AI, or that the Geth won't change their view on the optimal solution. If nothing else, sheer logistics dictates it. Synthetics are immortal. At some point, resources will become a conflict, and there is no other result but the dominance of synthetics.

If nothing else, the Citadel itself proves this. It exists, and its creators are long gone, probably the first victims of its "Solution".
While they were clearly intending the "best" choice to be
SPOILER:
Synthesis, I don't agree. Irrevocably altering all life in the galaxy is playing God on a scale even greater than the Citadel was. I find myself leaning towards Control as the ideal outcome. With the Reapers integrated into galactic society, rebuilding the relay network would be trivial, and all races would be free to choose their own path - perhaps eventually culminating in their own Synthesis, when they've reached the level the Citadel...but it would be their choice. Sure, the danger still exists of a civilization initiating a technological singularity, and possibly going unchecked long enough to surpass the combined galactic strength of the organics and the Reapers together, but it seems to me to be worth the risk.
  #163  
Old 03-13-2012, 02:32 AM
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I did some thinking, and realize the weakest point of the plot is

SPOILER:

The Crucible. Its purpose is entirely mysterious, and throughout the entire game you find no clues and no lead up to its purpose. The story plays along the line of it being a WMD of some sort, but it actually serves as an 'upgrade' to the Catalyst. How did the races of the few previous cycles figured this out that they need the Catalyst somehow is also a glaring "hand-wave", because the nature of the Crucible is to change the Catalyst - but how would the originator species even come up with the Crucible if they don't know that there is a Catalyst, and that the Catalyst is a all powerful AI?

Or, if the originator of the Crucible has no idea about the Catalyst, how they did end up building something that will change the Catalyst?

I guess this problem only rears its head when the god-child gives you the three choices. You never see those choices coming, because the story in no way touch on the nature or purpose of the Crucible. If Bioware has spent more time on that (just one darn mission) instead of having so many side quests, the ending would be better.

Sure, there are elements hinted about the three final choices throughout - Shephard wants to destroy the Reaper, Saren wants to integrate and the Illusive Man wants to control. But the way the Crucible is presented, it's like a magic wand which Shephard waved and shit happens. It likes making a wish!

I rather that before the final mission, Shephard has to make a choice about the final configuration of the Crucible - to destroy, or to control. During the last moments, the god-child appears and presents the option to synthesize. Meanwhile, all the way leading up to the final battle, the whole fleet knows that the Crucible will sync with the Mass Relays to achieve its goal, and whether the Relays are destroyed or not depends on how much War Assets score the Crucible has.

In fact, the choices may have to be made during the entire course of the game, as Shephard has to influence various stakeholders on the Crucible project about the final course of action. Now this is more in keeping with the tradition of Mass Effect, I think.

.
  #164  
Old 03-13-2012, 02:48 AM
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I see that most of the complaints are about the ending, didn't Bioware's lead storywriter leave recently (as in, just a couple weeks ago)? Could internal turmoil near the end of development have led to the ending being rushed?
  #165  
Old 03-13-2012, 05:29 AM
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I see that most of the complaints are about the ending, didn't Bioware's lead storywriter leave recently (as in, just a couple weeks ago)? Could internal turmoil near the end of development have led to the ending being rushed?
I remember seeing a BSN post about it somewhere; the lead writer left the game industry, and some others were reassigned to Dragon Age 2 or The Old Republic. Few hopped to Bethesda and Blizzard. In total, only 2 or 3 writers stayed throughout the entire trilogy.

There are some speculation that the ending is rushed due to Mass Effect 3 being leaked on the Internet.
  #166  
Old 03-13-2012, 07:16 AM
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ME 3 and downloading.


Greetings good people,
I'm sorely tempted to buy this game having enjoyed the first two greatly.
On a slight aside,
I'll be buying the physical disc/s? but would like to know do, I then have to download the whole game from Origin/Steam? Despite having the data on DVD.

This really hacked me off about Deus Ex 3 and the Orange Box as I'm reliant on a 3G USB dongle for my Internet and this becomes expensive and very slow!

I've just restarted ME 1 to ensure my Shepard enters ME2 and 3 with as much capability as poss.

Peter
  #167  
Old 03-13-2012, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Crowbar of Irony +3 View Post
I did some thinking, and realize the weakest point of the plot is...
I agree entirely. I think most of the dissatisfaction with the ending comes with how it's
SPOILER:
a deus-ex-machina (heh, literally), but that's not the fault of the ending, it's the fault of the entire game. The Crucible is just dropped on the player out of nowhere at the start, despite not having a bit of foreshadowing in ME1 or 2. Through the entire course of 3, its origin and its function go unexplained, because many of the plot points hinge upon it being a miracle device of mystery. Because of all this, it's assured that whatever miracle that it finally generates is, quite naturally, going to feel tacked on and undeserved, because the player had nothing to do with it at any point.
I have a lot of praise for the character interaction, the settings, and the individual segments of ME3, but there's no question that the story has serious faults. In my opinion, the ending is well-executed, given the foundation. The problem is that said foundation is weak.
  #168  
Old 03-13-2012, 07:26 AM
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I bought the disks and the only downloads I had were a patch and the DLC that came with the collector's edition (a part of which was 500 megs FWIW).
  #169  
Old 03-14-2012, 05:26 AM
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I can remember having been annoyed at a game's ending before. (Fallout 3, for instance.) But I can't remember having felt both betrayed and insulted, though Fable 2 came close.

This is really reminding me of Stephen King's Dark Tower series and how that ended. I think the feelings I had then and now are comparable.
  #170  
Old 03-14-2012, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Gukumatz View Post
I can remember having been annoyed at a game's ending before. (Fallout 3, for instance.) But I can't remember having felt both betrayed and insulted, though Fable 2 came close.

This is really reminding me of Stephen King's Dark Tower series and how that ended. I think the feelings I had then and now are comparable.
At least Fallout 3 has Broken Steel. I hope Bioware take a page from Bethesda's play book.
  #171  
Old 03-14-2012, 09:38 AM
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So I just started playing yesterday, sorry I'm late to the party! Finished the intro missions, and was just recently let loose on the galaxy.

I'm finding that locating quest targets is really difficult! In ME2 Every quest, except the really minor ones, were highlighted for you in the Galaxy map, so you always knew exactly where to go. And even the minor quests told you where to go in their journal entries almost always with a reference to the cluster system and or planet. Not so here. I have a quest to deliver some info to eden prime. I know I was just there, but I didn't remember in what system it was located and the journal entry did not provide me with that information. A little trial and error later and I found it, but I get no option to land, or to deliver the info... There are a couple of other quests available on my journal, which mention planet names, but no cluster/system names! I have no idea where I'm supposed to go to complete the quests!

The only quests that appear to show up on the Galaxy map are the main story quests. Is there a setting in the game to change this? Does it get better?

Also, did anyone get lazy like me and used masseffectsaves2.com instead of replaying through ME1 and ME2 like you thought you would? Well, for me it was lazyness and unwilligness to wait to play ME3 until I finished ME2. I found a great save that had done everythign exactly as I had, except they never completed the Shadow Broker DLC so that part of the conversation with Liara was a bit weird.

Overall I'm Loving the game so far. The weapon mods bring back a bit of that ME1 RPG feel, the old characters are spot on, so far at least, and the enws ones seem interesting. The AI seems a lot better about flanking me as well. If I don't pay attention in a firefight I quickly find myself fighitng guys from more than one direction (which kills you quick).

I haven't read any of the spoilers above, but it seems I'm in for a dissapointment with the ending? ::sigh:: They changed it from what was leaked to the itnernet, right? How drastic was the change, and was the leaked endign better than what shipped on disc?

Last edited by Kinthalis; 03-14-2012 at 09:40 AM.
  #172  
Old 03-14-2012, 12:45 PM
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I agree entirely. I think most of the dissatisfaction with the ending comes with how it's
SPOILER:
a deus-ex-machina (heh, literally), but that's not the fault of the ending, it's the fault of the entire game. The Crucible is just dropped on the player out of nowhere at the start, despite not having a bit of foreshadowing in ME1 or 2. Through the entire course of 3, its origin and its function go unexplained, because many of the plot points hinge upon it being a miracle device of mystery. Because of all this, it's assured that whatever miracle that it finally generates is, quite naturally, going to feel tacked on and undeserved, because the player had nothing to do with it at any point.
I have a lot of praise for the character interaction, the settings, and the individual segments of ME3, but there's no question that the story has serious faults. In my opinion, the ending is well-executed, given the foundation. The problem is that said foundation is weak.
I can't totally agree with this--

SPOILER:
The idea that Prothean technology was as close as anyone's come to beating the Reapers is viable. Hell, even having Prothean tech that was intended to interface with the Citadel (and its apparent extragalactic-range mass relay and communications array to the Reapers) is perfectly sensible too.

The ending falls down when they decided that the Crucible ISN'T a superweapon, but a cosmic MacGuffin. For example, having it be some kind of ultra-advanced Prothean supercomputer VI that can, for just a moment if it can reach every Reaper at once, disrupt their operations just long enough for a prepared opponent to smash them--that would have been perfectly acceptable and properly foreshadowed.
  #173  
Old 03-14-2012, 01:12 PM
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I pretty much agree.

SPOILER:
There's nothing inherently wrong about the use of the Crucible and it being introduced at the start of game 3. Hell, the Reapers were introduced at the start of game 1 and the Collectors were introduced at the start of game 2. That the squishy-races found a cycle-spanning superweapon is an acceptable plot development. That it used the relays and the Citadel against the Reapers is, also, acceptable. Hell, even if it had been handled with similar mechanics at the end, it would have been somewhat acceptable (use the Crucible to insert a hyper advanced virus into the Reapers, choose to destroy or subjugate them!).

I think, though, it's the idea that no victory is actually possible and even destroying the Reapers means that most of the universe starves to death in the absence of relays. And, of course, that the crewmates you've spent so much time getting to know simply blink out of the story and we never find out what happened to them. Including, if you played a male Shepherd, a woman who may or may not be carrying your child.

Gah!

Last edited by FinnAgain; 03-14-2012 at 01:12 PM.
  #174  
Old 03-14-2012, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinthalis View Post
So I just started playing yesterday, sorry I'm late to the party! Finished the intro missions, and was just recently let loose on the galaxy.

I'm finding that locating quest targets is really difficult! In ME2 Every quest, except the really minor ones, were highlighted for you in the Galaxy map, so you always knew exactly where to go.
That is one of my gripes too. Strangely, they make it easier for you to find NPCs to talk to on the Citadel.

With regards to the ending, I think the recent backlash about it speaks volume about how bad it is...

Last edited by Crowbar of Irony +3; 03-14-2012 at 01:13 PM.
  #175  
Old 03-14-2012, 01:14 PM
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I can't totally agree with this--

SPOILER:
The idea that Prothean technology was as close as anyone's come to beating the Reapers is viable. Hell, even having Prothean tech that was intended to interface with the Citadel (and its apparent extragalactic-range mass relay and communications array to the Reapers) is perfectly sensible too.

The ending falls down when they decided that the Crucible ISN'T a superweapon, but a cosmic MacGuffin. For example, having it be some kind of ultra-advanced Prothean supercomputer VI that can, for just a moment if it can reach every Reaper at once, disrupt their operations just long enough for a prepared opponent to smash them--that would have been perfectly acceptable and properly foreshadowed.
I totally agree, and I really like your idea for how it would work. Especially because that would naturally integrate your war readiness rating, and how many civilizations you managed to preserve and/or bring into the alliance effort.

Kinthalis, I think the leaked plot, as far as the explanation of the Reapers, was pretty weaksauce too, but of course it wasn't a fully fleshed out idea. I won't say that the current ending is a good idea in any respect, but it also could have been executed much better, and the overall effect would have been much less offensive. The way it is done is as bad as what was done.
  #176  
Old 03-14-2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kinthalis View Post
I'm finding that locating quest targets is really difficult! In ME2 Every quest, except the really minor ones, were highlighted for you in the Galaxy map, so you always knew exactly where to go. And even the minor quests told you where to go in their journal entries almost always with a reference to the cluster system and or planet. Not so here.
Yeah, it's terrible. And you can get some of those quests *long* before you get access to the system where whatever they want can be found.
Anyway, what I did was just explore every system to 100% as soon as possible. You can pick up artifacts, etc. from scanning planets without having to get the related subquest first.

Quote:
I have a quest to deliver some info to eden prime. I know I was just there, but I didn't remember in what system it was located and the journal entry did not provide me with that information.
The Eden Prime quest is tied to the DLC. You had to have found 3 pieces of information during the DLC mission. If you didn't... you're screwed.

Fortunately, that's only the case for the DLC side mission. For the main game, if you miss picking up something quest-related from a location you can't revisit, you can purchase it from Spectre requisitions afterwards.
  #177  
Old 03-14-2012, 02:28 PM
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I have to admit I am not a big fan of the whole "Reapers will attack if you scan too much" thing. All it does is just make scanning systems take longer. If it was like a space battle mini game that would be one thing...
  #178  
Old 03-14-2012, 03:08 PM
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I have to admit I am not a big fan of the whole "Reapers will attack if you scan too much" thing. All it does is just make scanning systems take longer. If it was like a space battle mini game that would be one thing...
Or if they actually implemented the discussion of Reaper drive tech I remember from one of the codex entries (that they're faster but can't change direction as readily) so you could juke them.
  #179  
Old 03-15-2012, 01:42 AM
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The meter resets after each mission you do, so you can go scanning then do a mission and it will be all clear.

Though my usual approach to this type of scavenger hunt nowadays is to use a guide. Saves time
  #180  
Old 03-15-2012, 09:49 AM
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Uh oh... I think my game glitched.

I just:

SPOILER:


Rescued the biotic kids, Dr Sanders, and Jack. Kahlee apparently left the Normandy right away to contribute to the construction of the super weapon, but I can't find Jack anywhere! I found the prothean dude down in the engineering area where Jack used to bunk in ME2. Says he was "exploring" the ship. I really don't trust this guy.

He mentions Jack, I guess he senses her previous presence there. So I turned the ship upside down looking for her, and I can't find her anywhere, nor are there any messages from her, telling me that she went somewhere.

Did my game bug out? Is she supposed to be somewhere on ship?

Also, I really like the new jack. Makes me wish I had romanced her in Me2.


Last edited by Kinthalis; 03-15-2012 at 09:50 AM.
  #181  
Old 03-15-2012, 09:55 AM
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Uh oh... I think my game glitched.
SPOILER:
Jack does not come with you. You have very little more contact with her.
  #182  
Old 03-15-2012, 10:07 AM
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SPOILER:
Jack does not come with you. You have very little more contact with her.
NOOOOOooooooooo!
  #183  
Old 03-15-2012, 12:16 PM
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I think I prefer my squad from ME2 than from ME1. Jack, Mordin, Samara and Grunt, in particular, are way more colourful than Ash/Kadian and Liara. Tali and Garrus are cool too.
  #184  
Old 03-15-2012, 01:39 PM
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Yeah I would have liked more options for my team, especially a krogan or two. Preferably a certain battlemaster we all know.
  #185  
Old 03-17-2012, 01:05 AM
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So I finished the game. At the end I listened to the exposition avatar explain things and then ran right into the center. Which ending was that? Where do I go to officially complain?
  #186  
Old 03-17-2012, 08:51 AM
Quimby is offline
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Anyone else play through all the movie dialogue on that billboard on the Presidium? It is is on the left side apartment level and worth seeking out. It is very funny.
  #187  
Old 03-17-2012, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Quimby View Post
Anyone else play through all the movie dialogue on that billboard on the Presidium? It is is on the left side apartment level and worth seeking out. It is very funny.
Oo, I haven't. Is the billboard interactive, or does it just broadcast?

UncleRojelio: In the "Bioware backlash" thread, someone linked to a charitable effort called Retake Mass Effect, where you can make a donation to Child's Play (gets video games to kids in hospitals) in the name of respectfully requesting a better resolution to ME3, and to showing Bioware that fans will put their money where their mouth is. Donations have topped $57K since starting on March 13th! I'll be donating on payday.

There are forum threads too, I guess, but the Official Word seems to be "we're listening" without much in the way of specifics.
  #188  
Old 03-17-2012, 10:27 AM
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Oo, I haven't. Is the billboard interactive, or does it just broadcast?
It's interactive. It is in the left hallway on the right side.
  #189  
Old 03-17-2012, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Quimby View Post
It's interactive. It is in the left hallway on the right side.
Hah, I just went to check it out, and yes, it's worthwhile. It's the billboard for the latest "Blasto" movie. (And keep clicking, it has several installments. It'll eventually cycle back around to the start again.)

Last edited by Ferret Herder; 03-17-2012 at 10:29 AM.
  #190  
Old 03-18-2012, 01:32 AM
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Some more thoughts on the ending;
SPOILER:
Shepard is indoctrinated. TIM and Anderson aren't really there, it's an internal dialogue like Saren's struggle. "Listen to yourself, you're indoctrinated!" - Shepard's mind resisting the indoctrinated aspect. This is also why Anderson and TIM are on the Citadel and conveniently up at the same time.

If you choose Control or Synthesis Shepard dies; because he compromised his vision of wiping out the Reapers. The only ending in which Shepard lives is the Destroy ending; because he has remained true to his vision and thus has resisted indoctrination. He wakes up under some concrete rubble (like London) but he was supposedly on the Citadel (which was blown up).

The only conclusion that makes sense therefore is that everything after Harbinger blasts you is a dying hallucination where Shepard fights indoctrination, successfully in the destroy ending and unsuccessfully in any other ending.


What's the further conclusion? A
SPOILER:
'true' last level and ending DLC after Shepard wakes up.
  #191  
Old 03-18-2012, 10:11 AM
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I think I am alone in not hating the ending.
  #192  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:29 PM
velveeta is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kobayashi View Post
Some more thoughts on the ending;
SPOILER:
Shepard is indoctrinated. TIM and Anderson aren't really there, it's an internal dialogue like Saren's struggle. "Listen to yourself, you're indoctrinated!" - Shepard's mind resisting the indoctrinated aspect. This is also why Anderson and TIM are on the Citadel and conveniently up at the same time.

If you choose Control or Synthesis Shepard dies; because he compromised his vision of wiping out the Reapers. The only ending in which Shepard lives is the Destroy ending; because he has remained true to his vision and thus has resisted indoctrination. He wakes up under some concrete rubble (like London) but he was supposedly on the Citadel (which was blown up).

The only conclusion that makes sense therefore is that everything after Harbinger blasts you is a dying hallucination where Shepard fights indoctrination, successfully in the destroy ending and unsuccessfully in any other ending.


What's the further conclusion? A
SPOILER:
'true' last level and ending DLC after Shepard wakes up.
I'm really hoping this is right. I thought the game was good and the last few missions amazing. I was all set to immediately start my replay... but the last 5 minutes, oh no. I just turned off my XBOX and haven't touched it since I finished the game. I have no desire to replay it. I just don't know what they were thinking. I was left with an empty sad feeling. The whole game you are beating the odds and creating hope for a better tomorrow. You are going to win even though the situation seems incredibly hopeless. Some call it bittersweet. I just call it bitter.
  #193  
Old 03-18-2012, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRojelio View Post
So I finished the game. At the end I listened to the exposition avatar explain things and then ran right into the center. Which ending was that? Where do I go to officially complain?
The Facebook group is 38,000 strong right now, and they're asking everyone to send a letter or email to Bioware, stating what you thought was problematic about the ending and asking for DLC to fix it.

As far as the Indoctrination Theory, I think there is plenty of textual evidence for it. I also think that it's not at all what Bioware intended, but simply that they rushed in writing a new ending after the script leak, and were under so much pressure they created something that has so many weaknesses, inconsistencies, and downright continuity errors that it happens to be easily interpretable as a dream sequence. I have a .5% hope that they'll capitalize on that and make it definitive in a free DLC.
  #194  
Old 03-18-2012, 04:55 PM
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Well, I can now read the thread again, because I have finished the game.
SPOILER:
Through three games, I whipped asses of bullies and wiped noses of the downtrodden under the assumption that the game designers would allow it to matter in the end. It did not. Everybody I helped is irrevocably fucked no matter what I do. Every ending is an apocalypse with only a cursory nod to hope.

I was disturbed at the stark moral consequences in the Arrival DLC for Mass Effect 2. It haunted me, and I was glad to see it addressed in Mass Effect 3. They kind of let Shepard off easy, because the Batarians were too fucked to leverage the response that the incident deserved, and their one representative wussed out for what seemed like too little reason, given his previously established persona.

But this final ending? This wasn't a moral dilemma. This was a curt dismissal of the entire premise of the game that they somehow managed to drag out intollerably. Catalyst has come to a non-sequitur conclusion based on false premises. Many of the things Catalyst says are just grindingly stupid. Final Evolution? [morbo]Evolution does not work that way![/morbo] Everything synthetic turns on its creator? Organics are so busy turning on eachother, what's the difference? Colonies rebel, client states demand independence. Why the hell does that mean synthetics must eliminate all organic life? In fact, the game already answered that -- it doesn't. The synthetics are only responding to fear for their own existence.

Here's one thing where Kirk and Picard have it over Shepard. When they find an ancient, powerful mysterious entity imposing its will on 'organics' or 'humans' or 'young races' they get to call these godheads on their bullshit -- and win.
  #195  
Old 03-18-2012, 04:55 PM
Manda JO is offline
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My idea for the ending:

SPOILER:
I think it should have been possible to demonstrate to the thing at the end that the cycle was now not needed: that this time around, organics had developed synthetics that had individuality and morality, looking at the sacrifice of Legion and the romance of EDI and Joker and (possibly) TIM's suicide and even Shepard's own possible status as a replic--as an AI as evidence. So now it's not an inevitable downward spiral of synthetics getting the upper hand and destroying organics: now synthetics ARE organics in the most important ways, and while there will surely be wars and things, there will not be a single unified synthetic push to destroy all organic life.

This is even foreshadowed in the way Javik did not understand why or how Shepard could trust Legion.

Anyway, once the Cycle-creator sees that the cycle is no longer needed, all the Reapers need to find empty planets and start cloning 100 million years of extincted species. Not all at once, of course, but over the course of the next million years or so. Otherwise, what was the point of saving all that genetic information, of juicing all those people? If the cycle allowed for the idea that someday they could be brought back, as species if not as indiiduals, then it fulfills the "horrible calculus" theme: the Reapers were the only way for those species to have long term futures, though at a horrible cost. Also, it would give a point to all the people juicing, beyond "wow, that's gross".


See? That would have been an epic enough change to justify all the general epic-ness.

Last edited by Manda JO; 03-18-2012 at 04:59 PM.
  #196  
Old 03-18-2012, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
My idea for the ending:

SPOILER:
I think it should have been possible to demonstrate to the thing at the end that the cycle was now not needed: that this time around, organics had developed synthetics that had individuality and morality, looking at the sacrifice of Legion and the romance of EDI and Joker and (possibly) TIM's suicide and even Shepard's own possible status as a replic--as an AI as evidence. So now it's not an inevitable downward spiral of synthetics getting the upper hand and destroying organics: now synthetics ARE organics in the most important ways, and while there will surely be wars and things, there will not be a single unified synthetic push to destroy all organic life.

This is even foreshadowed in the way Javik did not understand why or how Shepard could trust Legion.

Anyway, once the Cycle-creator sees that the cycle is no longer needed, all the Reapers need to find empty planets and start cloning 100 million years of extincted species. Not all at once, of course, but over the course of the next million years or so. Otherwise, what was the point of saving all that genetic information, of juicing all those people? If the cycle allowed for the idea that someday they could be brought back, as species if not as indiiduals, then it fulfills the "horrible calculus" theme: the Reapers were the only way for those species to have long term futures, though at a horrible cost. Also, it would give a point to all the people juicing, beyond "wow, that's gross".


See? That would have been an epic enough change to justify all the general epic-ness.
Yes.

SPOILER:
Why is the cycle even needed now that I've demonstrated that everyone can work together? The whole idea of the cycle I found dubious in the first place. Starchild sends synthetics so organics can be saved to be obliterated in another 50000 years. Dumb.
So I can die and destroy the reapers.
Or I can die and force some odd evolution on everyone which obliterates the message of difference species working together.
Or I can fly the reapers off, but I die anyway, millions die or are stranded far from home never to return - well except that they'll die too which I'll get to in a moment.

None of the options were the least bit satisfying. Everyone I helped is fucked because we've already seen what happens to a system when a mass relay explodes. So I picked to destroy the reapers, but the fleet and everyone else got wiped out too. What was the point of curing the Genophage or restoring the Quarians to their home world and bringing peace with the Geth? Nothing. They're all fucked when the shock wave from the relay hits them. The millions on the Citadel bye bye! It's never explained why the relays and Citadel have to blow up, and the destructive wave from Arrival is hand waved away I'm guessing.
The only thing that makes any sense is the indoctrination theory which would turn a horrible ending into a great one - except for the blatant money grab to get the DLC.
I find it really greedy that they tied the best ending - Shepard lives! - to multiplayer. I don't like multiplayer. Some people don't want to or don't have the money to spend on XBOX live. Want the "good" ending?? Pay for it! I shouldn't be surprised, but this is a new low.
  #197  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:02 PM
Johnny Angel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velveeta View Post
SPOILER:
Everyone I helped is fucked because we've already seen what happens to a system when a mass relay explodes. So I picked to destroy the reapers, but the fleet and everyone else got wiped out too. What was the point of curing the Genophage or restoring the Quarians to their home world and bringing peace with the Geth? Nothing. They're all fucked when the shock wave from the relay hits them. The millions on the Citadel bye bye! It's never explained why the relays and Citadel have to blow up, and the destructive wave from Arrival is hand waved away I'm guessing.
SPOILER:
At least the terrible ending to Dragon Age II only completely invalidated everything you tried to accomplish in just that one game. The end of Mass Effect 3 makes all the triumphs and sacrifices of three whole games go up in a puff of smoke.

Does the multiplayer keep Shepard alive? I mean, Shepard making an ultimate sacrifice is the only part that makes any sense.
  #198  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Angel View Post
SPOILER:
At least the terrible ending to Dragon Age II only completely invalidated everything you tried to accomplish in just that one game. The end of Mass Effect 3 makes all the triumphs and sacrifices of three whole games go up in a puff of smoke.

Does the multiplayer keep Shepard alive? I mean, Shepard making an ultimate sacrifice is the only part that makes any sense.
SPOILER:
And people LOVED the end of DA2 so much that they decided for 3x the gut punch for ME3. I chalked DA2 to middle game syndrome, and I didn't care as much about it. I wasn't invested as I was with my ME characters. Yay, everyone is dead or trapped on some dead end world. I really want to buy the next Bioware game so I can feel like a failure again. I was a fan for years and they could do no wrong in my eyes, but this is a little much for me to forgive.

Playing multiplayer is the only way to get enough end-game assets to get the "good" ending. You can Google it, but basically if you choose to destroy the reapers then an additional scene pops up after the scene of the Normandy crew exiting the ship. It's Shepard buried under the rubble of London and taking a gasp of air as he regains consciousness. It's where the indoctrination theory "it's all a fight of his subconscious" comes from - and the only thing that makes a bit of sense.
  #199  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:30 PM
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The secret ending:


Last edited by velveeta; 03-18-2012 at 06:31 PM.
  #200  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:46 PM
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BTW, my husband is upstairs playing and hasn't finished yet. I can hear the noise of the relays and the foghorn of the reapers as he moves the Normandy around the galaxy setting everything right.
I feel so sad knowing that he's headed for that concrete wall of an ending and will soon be as sad about it as I am.

Last edited by velveeta; 03-18-2012 at 06:47 PM.
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