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Old 09-10-2019, 05:38 PM
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California Schools not allowed to ban students, your opinion?


THIS BILL just passed says schools in California grades k-8 are no longer allowed to suspend students for "willful defiance". The idea behind it was that too many students of color were being suspended and they want schools to come up with alternatives rather than kick kids out school.

My opinion: as long as the school tried some alternatives first like communication with parents, they should have the right. Kids being disruptive prevents teachers from teaching and the other kids from learning.

This bill tells kids its ok to walk in late, cause major disruptions, call the teacher names, and act like a total ass.

What is your opinion?

Last edited by Urbanredneck; 09-10-2019 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 09-10-2019, 05:41 PM
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It could devolve into another form of segregation, with separate classrooms for trouble kids, who would also just happen to be lower-income people of color.
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Old 09-10-2019, 05:53 PM
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Way back, late 80's/early 90's, somewhere in there when one of my relatives was early in her teaching career, they started a program that, along with other things, dictated that a student couldn't be held back more than twice.
At first, it made some amount of sense, they had issues with kids being held back year after year and they'd end up with 12 year olds in 4th grade or kids finally finishing grade school for no reason other than they turned 18.
But they ended up with a new problem. Once a kid had been held back twice, they had nothing left to lose. Now all she was really doing was babysitting for these kids for 8 hours a day.
I don't know where that all landed, but hopefully something got figured out.

Part of the problem I see suspending/expelling students is that it becomes a 'not in my backyard' problem. I understand that if a school has so many problems with a given student they'd rather just be rid of them, but the kid is going to end up somewhere and likely going to cause all the same problems elsewhere.

PS, the article isn't readable if you have an adblocker on.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
THIS BILL just passed says schools in California grades k-8 are no longer allowed to suspend students for "willful defiance". The idea behind it was that too many students of color were being suspended and they want schools to come up with alternatives rather than kick kids out school.

My opinion: as long as the school tried some alternatives first like communication with parents, they should have the right. Kids being disruptive prevents teachers from teaching and the other kids from learning.

This bill tells kids its ok to walk in late, cause major disruptions, call the teacher names, and act like a total ass.

What is your opinion?
Well, your characterization is deeply cynical. Alternatives like communicating with parents? What are the chances that the parents are the problem? Isn't it more disruptive for the kid to send them packing to a new school every 8 weeks? And burdening their no-good parents with trying to navigate this chaos?

I say this bill is a good first step, it basically says - "Hey schools, do your job! Find a solution!" Now of course, IRL this is going to require more resources and money to tackle. Hopefully that will be recognized and addressed in due course.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:08 PM
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With school being a fundamental prerequisite for successful independence, no one should be barred from attending school.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:32 PM
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It sounds akin to the disastrous policies that were implemented in Minnesota a few years ago. By clamping down on the schools' ability to discipline, it turned them into violent, out-of-control places.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:41 PM
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If I'm reading the law correctly, there's still a huge number of things that can get you suspended/expelled. It's just removing the generic "disruptive behavior" as a reason. And only for grades K through 8, which is roughly from the age of 5 through 13.

Should we really be suspending 10 year olds for being "disruptive." Do you really think there's a bunch of 9 year olds going "yeah, I can be an ass now because the law allows it!"

Last edited by enalzi; 09-10-2019 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:42 PM
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Sounds like a false dilemma to me-Kick them out, or let them do whatever they want?
Those are the only two choices available?
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:48 PM
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As a teacher of nearly two decades, I will say it is absolutely the case that teachers commonly see misbehavior on the part of black students as criminal and dangerous, when similar behavior by white students is dismissed as routine stuff. I will also say that I have known several teachers over the years who seemed to go out of their way to bully and antagonize black students. There are REAL problems with adults wanting a sort of fanning subservience from black students they don't demand from anyone else.

I also think that it'd be more honest to just kick a kid out than suspend them over and over again, until they are hopelessly lost and they drop out on their own. How on earth is missing school a punishment for a struggling kid? As a teacher, missing students always created more work for me than anything. And the suspended child comes back even less engaged and more disruptive.

Finally, it's a bit of a false dilemma. There are ways to discipline a child besides suspending them.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:55 PM
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Does this law apply only to out-of-school suspensions (OSS), or to in-school suspensions (ISS)? OSS has always been a bad idea, even regardless of any bias, because the students who receive it are likely to view it as a reward, not a punishment. Which is why most schools are now moving to ISS, where the problem student is still isolated from other students, but in a room in the school under the supervision of the school's discipline official, and still expected to do whatever work the regular teachers send down to them.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:57 PM
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If I'm reading the law correctly, there's still a huge number of things that can get you suspended/expelled. It's just removing the generic "disruptive behavior" as a reason. And only for grades K through 8, which is roughly from the age of 5 through 13.

Should we really be suspending 10 year olds for being "disruptive." Do you really think there's a bunch of 9 year olds going "yeah, I can be an ass now because the law allows it!"
But it's not being 'disruptive' it's being willfully disruptive, there's a difference. There's a difference between the autistic kid who makes noises all day long and the bully that torments kids or shoots spitballs at the teacher.

In any case, I'm reading it as they now can't suspend or expel a student unless they broke a law (plus a few other specific cases). I'm going to guess that not much will change with who gets expelled, they just made the lines more black and white.

They have an awful lot going on in that bill about drugs.
(c) Unlawfully possessed, used, sold, or otherwise furnished, or been under the influence of, a controlled substance
(d) Unlawfully offered, arranged, or negotiated to sell a controlled substance
(j) Unlawfully possessed or unlawfully offered, arranged, or negotiated to sell drug paraphernalia
(p) Unlawfully offered, arranged to sell, negotiated to sell, or sold the prescription drug Soma


It's the Soma one that caught me, it's the brand name for a CIV prescription muscle relaxer (it would be like having one line just about "Valium" or "Vicodin"). I'm not sure why that drug, by brand name, would need it's own separate line when it's covered under the other parts. I have to wonder if they're having a problem with it at the school.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:59 PM
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But it's not being 'disruptive' it's being willfully disruptive, there's a difference. There's a difference between the autistic kid who makes noises all day long and the bully that torments kids or shoots spitballs at the teacher.
There's a separate line item allowing suspensions for bullying and assault.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:08 PM
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If I'm reading the law correctly, there's still a huge number of things that can get you suspended/expelled. It's just removing the generic "disruptive behavior" as a reason. And only for grades K through 8, which is roughly from the age of 5 through 13.

Should we really be suspending 10 year olds for being "disruptive." Do you really think there's a bunch of 9 year olds going "yeah, I can be an ass now because the law allows it!"
Hell yes they can. I've heard of even first graders assaulting teachers, blatantly being disruptive like calling teachers names, throwing things, running around the room, etc...

A friend of ours taught in one KCMO district 2nd grade room once and lasted just one semester. The kids were total BRATS and that same group had gone thru 3 teachers in the first grade. The principal would do nothing and said she only wanted to deal with positives.

And hell yes "disruptive behavior" can be bad. Your talking, constantly interrupting teachers, walking in and out of class whenever you feel. Walking around the halls and going into any class you wish. Yelling and screaming. Refusing to do any work... just read Velocity's post above of just how bad things can get.

AND if you dont nip that stuff in the bud it gets way worse. Then you see assaults on teachers and fighting and bringing weapons to school.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:10 PM
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It sounds akin to the disastrous policies that were implemented in Minnesota a few years ago. By clamping down on the schools' ability to discipline, it turned them into violent, out-of-control places.
Thank you for sharing this.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:48 PM
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Does this law apply only to out-of-school suspensions (OSS), or to in-school suspensions (ISS)? OSS has always been a bad idea, even regardless of any bias, because the students who receive it are likely to view it as a reward, not a punishment. Which is why most schools are now moving to ISS, where the problem student is still isolated from other students, but in a room in the school under the supervision of the school's discipline official, and still expected to do whatever work the regular teachers send down to them.
ISS works if you have maybe 15 students in a room with a teacher. Get 20-30 or more... then what? What if teachers dont send work down? What if kids act up in ISS? What if they have to put a sub in ISS? What if a kid just up and walks out of ISS?

ISS can turn into chaos pretty quick.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:49 PM
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It sounds akin to the disastrous policies that were implemented in Minnesota a few years ago. By clamping down on the schools' ability to discipline, it turned them into violent, out-of-control places.
Hard to believe the concepts "violent" and "out-of-control" apply anywhere in Minnesota.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:51 PM
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Finally, it's a bit of a false dilemma. There are ways to discipline a child besides suspending them.
We could try negotiating an exception to the UN Convention on Torture.
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:06 PM
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If you consider the case of Washington Middle school, the school made famous in 2017 when a highly decorated teacher publicly resigned in front of a school board with a compelling testimony of a school out of control, the school HAS BEEN BROUGHT UNDER CONTROL and one of the tools they used were out of school suspensions (among other changes).

From the article in 2018: And when comparing out of school suspensions issued in each semester, it certainly appears the district is taking a more aggressive stand. The district issued 242 suspensions in the first semester of last school year and 373 this past semester.

A new superintendent said: “I think it’s an indication we have done exactly what we set out to do,” Hoh said. “We were going to make sure that poor student behavior would not be tolerated.”
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:23 PM
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Does this law apply only to out-of-school suspensions (OSS), or to in-school suspensions (ISS)?
This line implies that it's only OSS.
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Teachers would retain the ability, under the proposed law, to suspend students from their classroom for disruptive behavior for a period of up to two days.
I have no problems with the bill. You really should not be kicking kids out of school as a punishment, especially a 5 to 14-year-old.
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:31 PM
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Hard to believe the concepts "violent" and "out-of-control" apply anywhere in Minnesota.
Well, just read it..
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:54 PM
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Well, just read it..
It seems to be more of an op-ed, at least to me.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:22 PM
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Way back, late 80's/early 90's, somewhere in there when one of my relatives was early in her teaching career, they started a program that, along with other things, dictated that a student couldn't be held back more than twice.
At first, it made some amount of sense, they had issues with kids being held back year after year and they'd end up with 12 year olds in 4th grade or kids finally finishing grade school for no reason other than they turned 18.
But they ended up with a new problem. Once a kid had been held back twice, they had nothing left to lose. Now all she was really doing was babysitting for these kids for 8 hours a day.
I don't know where that all landed, but hopefully something got figured out.

Part of the problem I see suspending/expelling students is that it becomes a 'not in my backyard' problem. I understand that if a school has so many problems with a given student they'd rather just be rid of them, but the kid is going to end up somewhere and likely going to cause all the same problems elsewhere.

PS, the article isn't readable if you have an adblocker on.
Wouldn't a child like the ones you describe in the 2nd paragraph belong in an MR/DD program?

I have a relative who was homeschooled for much of her elementary grades because she would have meltdowns that were not only embarrassing to everyone involved, the other children were not safe around her. She did not attack other children, but she could shot-put a desk across a room. It's taken a lot of therapy and tweaking her medications to make her into the wonderful young woman she is now.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:25 PM
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...There are ways to discipline a child besides suspending them.
Could you mention some of those ways, please?
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:28 PM
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Should we really be suspending 10 year olds for being "disruptive." Do you really think there's a bunch of 9 year olds going "yeah, I can be an ass now because the law allows it!"
What do you suggest be done with a child who is engaging in inappropriate sexual behavior, brings weapons to school, etc.? (Beyond calling CPS, of course; anything beyond that is way outside my pay grade.)

And heck, yeah, you'd better believe that 9-year-olds are capable of knowing about this, and taking advantage of it.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:32 PM
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When a child like this is in a classroom, the staff is not able to tell the other parents why the child is acting out, due to confidentiality issues. (This definitely wasn't the case when I was growing up in the 1970s!)

As I saw on another board, "We cannot tell you that she was adopted out of an Eastern European orphanage 3 years ago. We cannot tell you that his parents are in the midst of a horrific divorce, and the kids are currently living with their aunt and uncle because neither parent is currently capable of taking care of them. We cannot tell you that her father has terminal cancer and the family is about to be evicted because his disability check is their only income....." etc., although in many cases, the other parents may know at least the bare bones of what's going on with a very troubled child.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:14 AM
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As a teacher of nearly two decades, I will say it is absolutely the case that teachers commonly see misbehavior on the part of black students as criminal and dangerous, when similar behavior by white students is dismissed as routine stuff. I will also say that I have known several teachers over the years who seemed to go out of their way to bully and antagonize black students. There are REAL problems with adults wanting a sort of fanning subservience from black students they don't demand from anyone else.
I don't believe you, and I attended one of the roughest inner city schools you could imagine. I never saw the teachers behave that way. They were too afraid to be anything but respectful.

Students are suspended largely for the benefit and safety of the other students who want to learn. Too many liberals forget about them.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:19 AM
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I don't believe you, and I attended one of the roughest inner city schools you could imagine. I never saw the teachers behave that way. They were too afraid to be anything but respectful.

Students are suspended largely for the benefit and safety of the other students who want to learn. Too many liberals forget about them.
One person's personal experience does not cancel/negate another person's personal experience.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:22 AM
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Well, just read it..
Holy shit!

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Silva attacked the racial-equity discipline gap at its alleged root: “white privilege.” Teachers unfairly punish minority students for “largely subjective” behaviors, such as “defiance, disrespect and disruption,” she told the Minneapolis Star Tribune in 2012. To overcome their biases, teachers must learn “a true appreciation” of their students’ cultural “differences” and how these can “impact interactions in the classroom,” she said.

Silva hired a California-based diversity consultant, the Pacific Educational Group (PEG), to compel St. Paul school staff—from principals to janitors to bus drivers—to confront their own bigotry and to achieve “cultural competence” in working with “black and brown” students. In PEG-inspired “courageous conversations” about race, teachers were instructed to begin every statement with a phrase like “as a white woman, I believe,” or “as a black man, I think.” They learned that “shouting out” answers in class and lack of punctuality are black cultural traits and that what may seem to be defiant student behavior is, in fact, just a culturally conditioned expression of “enthusiasm.”

After implementing “white privilege” training, Silva moved to eliminate what she called the “punishment mentality” undergirding the district’s discipline model. In an effort to cut black discipline referrals, she lowered behavior expectations and dropped meaningful penalties for student misconduct. In 2012, the district removed “continual willful disobedience” as a suspendable offense. In addition, to close the “school-to-prison pipeline,” Silva adopted a new protocol on interactions between schools and the police. The protocol ranked student offenses on five levels and required schools to report only the worst—including arson, aggravated assault, and firearm possession—to police. School officials were strongly encouraged to handle other serious offenses—such as assault, sexual violence, and drug possession—on their own.
Fuck all that noise. I'd pull my kids out of a school that adopted policies like that so fast it would make the administration's heads spin.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:57 AM
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BTW, it was not that long ago that California's northern neighbor's teachers' union was calling it "A Crisis of Disrupted Learning"

Quote:
In their discussions and written responses, educators
described student behavior that has increasingly
made it challenging to provide safe, welcoming
and inclusive learning environments conducive to
high-quality instruction. These behaviors included:
 Verbal abuse: screaming, threatening, name-calling, using profanity
 Person to person abuse: spitting, kicking, hitting
 Weaponizing the classroom: overturning furniture, brandishing scissors or other items, stabbing with pencils, throwing objects
 Destruction of property: intentionally ruining other students’ projects, throwing technology, ripping books and other paper materials, tearing materials off walls
Quote:
More than half of poll respondents (56%) said that their classroom or their child’s classroom had experienced at least one room clear this year. Room clears are emergency procedures in which students temporarily leave a classroom to reduce the likelihood of injury or trauma as a result of extreme behavior, and often occur when one student is exhibiting behaviors that put the classroom at risk of harm.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:13 AM
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BTW, it was not that long ago that California's northern neighbor's teachers' union was calling it "A Crisis of Disrupted Learning"
Quote:
More than half of poll respondents (56%) said that their classroom or their child’s classroom had experienced at least one room clear this year. Room clears are emergency procedures in which students temporarily leave a classroom to reduce the likelihood of injury or trauma as a result of extreme behavior, and often occur when one student is exhibiting behaviors that put the classroom at risk of harm.
In C.S.Lewis' The Voyage of the Dawn Treader the Dufflepuds are comically inept little people. One of the stories about them is that once the cat got into their dairy, and twenty of them were hard at work moving the milk out. Nobody thought to remove the cat. It sounds like Dufflepuds are running the Oregon school board, and responding to a crisis where too many black cats are being removed from the dairy.

Regards,
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:27 AM
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I'm sure those poor misunderstood kiddies aren't willfully defiant, they're merely exhibiting ODD or some other pathology beyond their control!
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:35 AM
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It could devolve into another form of segregation, with separate classrooms for trouble kids, who would also just happen to be lower-income people of color.
Why? Do those kids cause more trouble per capita?
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:41 AM
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I don't believe you, and I attended one of the roughest inner city schools you could imagine. I never saw the teachers behave that way. They were too afraid to be anything but respectful.

Students are suspended largely for the benefit and safety of the other students who want to learn. Too many liberals forget about them.
I completely believe her. I planned on becoming a teacher, and through that participated in quite a few practicums in a variety of Minneapolis and North Suburban schools. At least a third of the teachers I assisted were flat out racists.
One second grade teacher, instead of having me help struggling readers, sent me out in the hallway with a group of all black students to help them learn how to color in the lines. Daily, these kids were missing out on important classroom time to LEARN HOW TO COLOR. Only a few black kids who were clearly ahead of the other kids in class remained in the room.
Another teacher with a mixed 4/5th grade class would call the black students dummy, idiots, failures. He would also make asides to me, pointing out which black female students would be pregnant before 15, and which black male students would be in prison. He was a horrible teacher, and a worse human being. And he just didn't care anymore. He was a year or two from retirement.
In an 8th grade English class, inner city junior high (where I attended 7 years prior) I had a student who was dealing with a horrific life. This young girl was supporting her family, working on the streets overnights. She'd still come to school almost every day, but would fall asleep in class. I asked the teacher if there was anything that could be done. She replied that if the student didn't care enough to stay awake in class, she didn't give a damn what happened to her, followed up with a comment about how none of "them" cared about getting an education, why should she care about providing one?
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:48 AM
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THIS BILL just passed says schools in California grades k-8 are no longer allowed to suspend students for "willful defiance". The idea behind it was that too many students of color were being suspended and they want schools to come up with alternatives rather than kick kids out school.

My opinion: as long as the school tried some alternatives first like communication with parents, they should have the right. Kids being disruptive prevents teachers from teaching and the other kids from learning.
The reason they're doing this is that the schools don't try alternatives.

Think about this from an economics perspective; if they are not forced or incentivized to find ways of resolving behavioural problems, the easiest thing to do is kick the kid out of the school and make her someone else's problem. People and organizations will take the path of least resistance; it's just human nature.

There ARE cases where a child must be suspended or expelled. That is just the way it is. The problem in some boards is they use the suspension hammer all the time and usually against black kids.


Quote:
This bill tells kids its ok to walk in late, cause major disruptions, call the teacher names, and act like a total ass.
This bill tells kids nothing. Children don't pay attention to legislation.
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Last edited by RickJay; 09-11-2019 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:10 AM
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I completely believe her. I planned on becoming a teacher, and through that participated in quite a few practicums in a variety of Minneapolis and North Suburban schools. At least a third of the teachers I assisted were flat out racists.
One second grade teacher, instead of having me help struggling readers, sent me out in the hallway with a group of all black students to help them learn how to color in the lines. Daily, these kids were missing out on important classroom time to LEARN HOW TO COLOR. Only a few black kids who were clearly ahead of the other kids in class remained in the room.
Another teacher with a mixed 4/5th grade class would call the black students dummy, idiots, failures. He would also make asides to me, pointing out which black female students would be pregnant before 15, and which black male students would be in prison. He was a horrible teacher, and a worse human being. And he just didn't care anymore. He was a year or two from retirement.
In an 8th grade English class, inner city junior high (where I attended 7 years prior) I had a student who was dealing with a horrific life. This young girl was supporting her family, working on the streets overnights. She'd still come to school almost every day, but would fall asleep in class. I asked the teacher if there was anything that could be done. She replied that if the student didn't care enough to stay awake in class, she didn't give a damn what happened to her, followed up with a comment about how none of "them" cared about getting an education, why should she care about providing one?
Thanks for sharing this.

I agree there are racist teachers. How to deal with them? Well obviously "diversity training" as we all know has little effect and often makes things worse. They cant be fired because of tenure laws.

However I dont think blanket rules against suspensions help either.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:10 AM
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Hard to believe the concepts "violent" and "out-of-control" apply anywhere in Minnesota.
We just had three murders in a single night in St. Paul.

More to the topic of schools, Minneapolis and St. Paul have a few nice schools. A few. If you're well off and can't get your kid into one of these schools you put them in a charter school, or private schools, or open enroll in the suburbs rather than have your kid not learn anything because the teacher can't discipline anyone disrupting class.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
The reason they're doing this is that the schools don't try alternatives.

Think about this from an economics perspective; if they are not forced or incentivized to find ways of resolving behavioural problems, the easiest thing to do is kick the kid out of the school and make her someone else's problem. People and organizations will take the path of least resistance; it's just human nature.

There ARE cases where a child must be suspended or expelled. That is just the way it is. The problem in some boards is they use the suspension hammer all the time and usually against black kids.
Well from my experience they do try alternatives. Ex. calling parents, referrals to the office, ISS, and such.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:47 AM
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I've heard of even first graders assaulting teachers, blatantly being disruptive like calling teachers names, throwing things, running around the room, etc...
Dearie dearie me, someone bring me my smelling salts! First graders running around the room and calling teachers names!!



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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
Could you mention some of those ways, please?
Well, typically, the only alternative to suspension, when we're talking about school discipline, is a good swift punch to the stomach.



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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
I don't believe you, and I attended one of the roughest inner city schools you could imagine. I never saw the teachers behave that way. They were too afraid to be anything but respectful.
The first, biggest mistake anyone can make regarding any big picture issue is to assume that their personal experience (and interpretation thereof) is somehow indicative of a universal truth. Doubly so when we're talking about systems analysis from the perspective of a child. Your remembered experience as a student says almost nothing about whether or not your school had racially bifurcated discipline, let alone whether or not that might have been the case at another school in another part of the country decades later, let alone whether or not there's some kind of trend or not.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
Could you mention some of those ways, please?
Restorative discipline. Working WITH parents to discover what the problem is. Better classroom management. Not having racist asshole teachers bait black kids, and not having racist timid teachers freak out because if a black kid is loud in the hall, it's seen as a prelude to assault.

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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
I don't believe you, and I attended one of the roughest inner city schools you could imagine. I never saw the teachers behave that way. They were too afraid to be anything but respectful.

Students are suspended largely for the benefit and safety of the other students who want to learn. Too many liberals forget about them.
That makes no sense. If a student is a threat to the safety of other students, removing them for 2-3 days every few weeks is not going to make anyone safer.

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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
The reason they're doing this is that the schools don't try alternatives.

Think about this from an economics perspective; if they are not forced or incentivized to find ways of resolving behavioural problems, the easiest thing to do is kick the kid out of the school and make her someone else's problem. People and organizations will take the path of least resistance; it's just human nature.

There ARE cases where a child must be suspended or expelled. That is just the way it is. The problem in some boards is they use the suspension hammer all the time and usually against black kids.

This bill tells kids nothing. Children don't pay attention to legislation.
This. All those terrible schools everyone is complaining about DO suspend kids--and they are terrible still. It doesn't work. It doesn't change behavior. The kid is back in a few days. And if he didn't deserve it--if he was suspended for some bullshit that white kids get away with--he's now behind academically, humiliated, resentful--and he's learned that being suspended is no big deal. So he acts out even more, and maybe the next suspensions are for more clearly egregious behavior. But it never had to be like that. That kid's LITERAL LIFE has been ruined because some teacher decided he was a "bad seed" at nine.

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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Thanks for sharing this.

I agree there are racist teachers. How to deal with them? Well obviously "diversity training" as we all know has little effect and often makes things worse. They cant be fired because of tenure laws.

However I dont think blanket rules against suspensions help either.
This isn't a blanket rule. It's a rule against vague, groundless suspensions. It's an attempt to invite self-reflection. I've been a racist teacher. I probably still am, though I try to monitor myself. But I know when I was young and straight from the suburbs, I "read" behavior different from kids based on race. Conversations like this truly helped me see how deeply entrenched the School-to-Prison pathway was and how I was complicit in it. And it made me notice my colleagues who were much more overt than I.

Look, middle-class white America loves the narrative of urban schools full of animalistic black kids lashing out at the kindly white teachers who only want to help them but are powerless against the biological reality that no one can help these kids. As a culture, we lap this shit up because it gets us off the hook for dealing with things like poverty and racism. But I've been here for nearly twenty years, and I am telling you, it's not that simple. This is not all good teachers against rabid youth.

If you don't believe that--if you don't believe that there is a significant minority of teachers who ARE racist--than there's no point in us even talking.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
Restorative discipline. Working WITH parents to discover what the problem is. Better classroom management. Not having racist asshole teachers bait black kids, and not having racist timid teachers freak out because if a black kid is loud in the hall, it's seen as a prelude to assault.



That makes no sense. If a student is a threat to the safety of other students, removing them for 2-3 days every few weeks is not going to make anyone safer.



This. All those terrible schools everyone is complaining about DO suspend kids--and they are terrible still. It doesn't work. It doesn't change behavior. The kid is back in a few days. And if he didn't deserve it--if he was suspended for some bullshit that white kids get away with--he's now behind academically, humiliated, resentful--and he's learned that being suspended is no big deal. So he acts out even more, and maybe the next suspensions are for more clearly egregious behavior. But it never had to be like that. That kid's LITERAL LIFE has been ruined because some teacher decided he was a "bad seed" at nine.



This isn't a blanket rule. It's a rule against vague, groundless suspensions. It's an attempt to invite self-reflection. I've been a racist teacher. I probably still am, though I try to monitor myself. But I know when I was young and straight from the suburbs, I "read" behavior different from kids based on race. Conversations like this truly helped me see how deeply entrenched the School-to-Prison pathway was and how I was complicit in it. And it made me notice my colleagues who were much more overt than I.

Look, middle-class white America loves the narrative of urban schools full of animalistic black kids lashing out at the kindly white teachers who only want to help them but are powerless against the biological reality that no one can help these kids. As a culture, we lap this shit up because it gets us off the hook for dealing with things like poverty and racism. But I've been here for nearly twenty years, and I am telling you, it's not that simple. This is not all good teachers against rabid youth.

If you don't believe that--if you don't believe that there is a significant minority of teachers who ARE racist--than there's no point in us even talking.

Is it racism to want to have a classroom without disruption? Is it racism to talk about bad/ Not involved parents? Is it racism to talk about unwed pregnancies? Is it racism to talk about poverty in the classroom and how it affects those students as well as the rest of the class?
Racist teachers won't be around long especially with the growing definition of 'racism'

If you are teaching (and that is what teaching is devolving to) to the lowest common denominator than it is clearly no surprise that the US is falling further and further behind other countries academically.

Personal responsibility.

Is it your responsibility as a teacher to get those uninvolved parents to cooperate with you to DEMAND your student/ their child, NOT be disruptive in class?
Black/White/Purple/Green I don't give two fucks what color someone is if they are disrupting class, they need to fucking go.

THE PARENTS are the only ones responsible for the behavior of their children. Unless you are willing to take up that mantle Manda Jo.

If so, god speed and good luck.

Last edited by Kearsen1; 09-11-2019 at 11:37 AM.
  #41  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:41 AM
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Is it racism to want to have a classroom without disruption? Is it racism to talk about bad/ Not involved parents? Is it racism to talk about unwed pregnancies? Is it racism to talk about poverty in the classroom and how it affects those students as well as the rest of the class?
It is racism when you treat the behavior of African-American children harsher than you do Caucasian children.
I saw this happen when I was in school, and I saw this happen when my son was in school.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:52 AM
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It is racism when you treat the behavior of African-American children harsher than you do Caucasian children.
I saw this happen when I was in school, and I saw this happen when my son was in school.

Anecdotes aside (since I did not see that) but ahem. You deal with racism the same way you deal with bad behavior, you fucking get rid of it. If the teacher is racist, here's the door. It sounds like with all the racist teachers out there that the teachers union would be up in arms....

Are they?

Last edited by Kearsen1; 09-11-2019 at 11:53 AM.
  #43  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:55 AM
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It is racism when you treat the behavior of African-American children harsher than you do Caucasian children.
I saw this happen when I was in school, and I saw this happen when my son was in school.
Amen. In a million little ways. This isn't the only problem in education, but it is a real problem, and when white people outside schools feel obligated to knee-jerk defend faceless white teachers out of some sense of kinship--when they deny the benefit of the doubt to targeted kids--we can't fix this.

And, it's worth mentioning, that African American teachers also can have double standards--and when they do, IME, they target African American kids. This isn't an individual problem, it's a deeply institutionalized problem.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:55 AM
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Anecdotes aside (since I did not see that) but ahem. You deal with racism the same way you deal with bad behavior, you fucking get rid of it. If the teacher is racist, here's the door. It sounds like with all the racist teachers out there that the teachers union would be up in arms....

Are they?
Holy crap! Kearsen1 has solved the problem of racism!

  #45  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:03 PM
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If you don't believe that--if you don't believe that there is a significant minority of teachers who ARE racist--than there's no point in us even talking.
Quote:
In 2014, a groundbreaking study in the Journal of Criminal Justice by J. P. Wright and others discredited both these claims. The study utilized the largest sample of school-aged children in the nation. Unlike almost all previous studies, it controlled for individual differences in student behavior over time. Using this rigorous methodology, the authors concluded that teacher bias plays no role in the racial-equity suspension gap, which, they determined, is “completely accounted for by a measure of the prior problem behavior of the student.” Racial differentials in suspension rates, they found, appeared to be “a function of differences in problem behaviors that emerge early in life, that remain relatively stable over time, and that materialize in the classroom.”

Why do black and white students, as groups, behave differently at school? Black students, on average, “are less academically prepared for school entrance” and bring with them deficits in many social and emotional skills, the study found, over which their parents do not exert control...

The deepest source of the racial-equity discipline gap is profound differences in family structure. Young people who grow up without fathers are far more likely than their peers to engage in antisocial behavior, according to voluminous social-science research...

87 percent of births to black, U.S.-born mothers in St. Paul occur out of wedlock, compared with 30 percent of white births. Tragically, the problem we confront is not so much a school-to-prison pipeline as a home-to-prison pipeline.
Cite.

Disproportions in application of discipline occur because different demographic groups disproportionately behave in ways that incur discipline.
Quote:
Better classroom management. Not having racist asshole teachers bait black kids...
Is it better classroom management to clear everyone else out of the room when one student is being disruptive? Is it baiting a student to require him to show up on time, stay in his seat, and not call the teacher names or assault her?

Regards,
Shodan
  #46  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:08 PM
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We also need to look at the matter from the standpoint of the other affected students. Having one student throw things, scream, tantrum, or hurl a desk or chair has a major impact on the 29 other students in the room.
  #47  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:11 PM
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It sounds akin to the disastrous policies that were implemented in Minnesota a few years ago. By clamping down on the schools' ability to discipline, it turned them into violent, out-of-control places.
Do you have some research or anything from a non-biased source?
  #48  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:12 PM
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Holy crap! Kearsen1 has solved the problem of racism!

Thank god!

It's hard to convey how SUBTLE these things are. I know a woman who has filed assault charges against 2, maybe 3 different black students, each years apart. I don't know anyone else who has done that. Knowing her, and having watched how she interacted with kids, I have no doubt that she was deliberately antagonistic in a way she wasn't with white kids. I saw her do it other times. Again, hard to call someone on any specific incident, and in every case the kid was doing something wrong. But she was different with black kids. She was the worst, but there's been plenty of others. A white kid acting out is "bored"; a black kid is "aggressive". A white kid chasing another is engaged in "horseplay"; a black kid is "threatening others". A white kid is "thoughtless"; the black kid is "deliberately disrespectful". The white kid gets moved into a more advanced reading class; the black kid gets suspended. Then, when they get to the next grade, the patterns and expectations are set. By now the black kids may well be acting out more--they've been primed for it--which reinforces racist bias. This is real. This happens.

This is not always the case, of course. But it's foolish to think it isn't a factor or that it doesn't need to be addressed.
  #49  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:16 PM
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We also need to look at the matter from the standpoint of the other affected students. Having one student throw things, scream, tantrum, or hurl a desk or chair has a major impact on the 29 other students in the room.
Will that kid be better when he comes back in a week?

And, in any case, that's not the suspensions they are trying to curb. They are trying to curb the ones that are for generic "disruptions"; they aren't banning suspensions, they are pushing schools to seriously reconsider their use of suspensions and to eliminate the most casual offences.

This is like moving one category of theft from felony to misdemeanor, and y'all are treating it as declaring open-season on personal property.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:19 PM
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For a long time the trend in public education, especially in urban areas, has been to hold students less and less responsible and accountable for their actions. At this point, students are being taught from kindergarten through 12th grade that they can show up late 100 times a year, not do work, swear at teachers, walk out of classrooms, destroy school property, and get into physical fights without any real consequences whatsoever. I think we are doing them a tremendous disservice because, when they graduate and walk out the door, we expect them to be "responsible adults" who get a job, show up to work on time, treat their bosses and fellow workers with respect, and do a diligent job at performing their tasks. Our public schools seem to be doing everything they can to achieve the opposite results.
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