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  #201  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:04 AM
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He's old. I don't mean age wise, I mean his thinking and politics are stuck in the 70's. He's like an old school western European socialist from the 70's. He opposes nuclear power. I don't mean he opposes new plants, he wants to accelerate the decommissioning of working plants before they are end of life and basically shut them all down as soon as possible. I think that is the wrong move and kind of stupid, to be honest. And it's old thinking.

I'd still vote for him if he gets the nomination over Trump, but I'll do it with a lot more holding of my nose than I did with Hillary and will feel seriously conflicted if he becomes president. Basically, anyone but Trump is my motto, but Bernie would be the least of my choices.
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  #202  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:12 AM
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Asked directly, Bernie wouldn't commit to supporting whoever wins the Democratic nomination: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...rt-winner.html
  #203  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:24 AM
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Asked directly, Bernie wouldn't commit to supporting whoever wins the Democratic nomination: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...rt-winner.html

  #204  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:26 AM
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I hope he's asked that in the debate. It's an important question, Bernie, and if you will not commit to supporting the nominee of the party upon whose coat tails you ride then you can fuck off.
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Old 06-27-2019, 11:24 AM
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I hope he's asked that in the debate. It's an important question, Bernie, and if you will not commit to supporting the nominee of the party upon whose coat tails you ride then you can fuck off.
Why are we even allowing a Non-Democrat into the debate?
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Old 06-27-2019, 11:53 AM
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Why are we even allowing a Non-Democrat into the debate?
Because in practice it would backfire on the Democrats to exclude him, plus we'd have to listen to the Bernie Bros stamping their little feet and whining about how unfair it is.

That doesn't mean his blatant carpetbagging isn't major dickery. Be a Democrat or fuck off, Bernie.
  #207  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:44 AM
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He seemed to be shouting for quite a bit of tonight's debate, and, if I may be superficial, looked a bit too sweaty by the end. I think I noticed dandruff on his jacket's shoulders, too.
  #208  
Old 06-28-2019, 11:58 AM
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Here's the NYT on Bernie's anti-Reagan, pro-socialism foreign policy forays when he was mayor of Burlington, Vt.: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/17/u...pgtype=Article
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Old 06-28-2019, 01:12 PM
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I am fresh out of NYT for June. Can you summarize, or quote?
  #210  
Old 06-28-2019, 01:52 PM
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Sanders is pretty much dead in the water and sinking. He'll hang on just enough though to make Warren nonviable.
  #211  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:20 PM
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I am fresh out of NYT for June. Can you summarize, or quote?
He traveled to Nicaragua, Cuba and the USSR while mayor, blasting Reagan and US imperialism and praising those countries for policies or public services he thought were better than in the US. He has since been more critical of the brutal and/or undemocratic nature of those regimes, but insists his primary motivation was averting WWIII. Many in Burlington at the time asked him to focus on improving city services instead of being so interested in foreign policy, but he was easily reelected anyway.
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Old 06-28-2019, 02:55 PM
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Thanks.

DSeid, agreed. If he does block the path for Warren, he will at last be doing the country a great service, albeit unintentionally.
  #213  
Old 06-28-2019, 10:32 PM
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Full disclosure, I despise Sanders. I also know that Twitter can be a bubble.

I have noticed a lot of negative feedback about Sanders on social media, but also a lot of just ignoring him. Every election is different and I think Sanders reminds people too much of Trump now. We already shook things up and stuck a finger in the eye of the establishment by electing Trump.

Again, I know I’m in a bubble but Harris, Warren and Buttigieg seem to be getting most of the discussion on my social media positively with some positives about Castro and Booker. Biden is getting killed and Sanders talk is mostly negative or non existent.
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  #214  
Old 06-28-2019, 10:45 PM
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The main reason I don't support Sanders is that I think we've had enough of old white men messing (this was my third choice of adverb) up this country.

I speak as a not quite so old white man myself. I think it's past time to let the next generation have their chance.

Since I live in California, I am leaning toward Kamala Harris, but it's early days yet. We'll see how I feel when the primary comes around.

Don't get me wrong, I will vote for the Democratic nominee in the general, no matter who. However, I think that nominating Sanders or Biden is the equivalent of handing the election to Trump. I'm on the fence about Warren, but I'd definitely prefer someone younger.
  #215  
Old 06-29-2019, 12:20 PM
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I grew up in VT, am liberal, but dislike Bernie Sanders. Much has already been said about Bernieís effectiveness, but to add to that, I just donít buy into his image as a newcomer and outsider with bold new ideas. He is no newcomer - I am in my late 40s and he has been a politician for as long as I have been following current events (probably since the early 1980s) and has served in Congress since I was a teenager. As far as being an outsider is concerned he is an Independent in name only. He was first elected to the House when VT Democrats started merely running token candidates because they realized that having both a viable candidate and Bernie in the same race was splitting the Left vote and handing the race to Republicans. At the national level a prominent Dem such as Chuck Schumer endorses Bernie in every election and the DNC takes that as an unofficial cue to stay out of the race. Finally, his ideas arenít new. Heís been saying the same damn things for decades, his ideas have just failed to become mainstream because they are so far fetched that they have failed to gain traction among anyone, including other liberals, who are familiar with the actual realities of passing and implementing legislation.

Donít get me wrong, Bernie is the first candidate I ever voted for and I would continue to vote for him if I still lived here since voting for his Democratic opponent is a waste of your vote and I rarely vote Republican. However, his popularity and messiah like status among Progressives continues to baffle me.
  #216  
Old 07-02-2019, 01:41 PM
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Bernie raised 18 million in second quarter fundraising being crushed by a small town mayor Pete Buttigieg who raised almost 25 million.

This should set off alarm bells in the Sanders campaign. Bernie’s email list and fervent grassroots support was his campaign in 2016. Being crushed by a mayor who was virtually unknown when he announced his campaign is a very bad omen for Sanders. I’m thinking that Sanders persona of being cranky and mad at the world isn’t the right message for this campaign and Mayor Pete’s intellectual and calm approach might be. We already shook things up by electing Trump.
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  #217  
Old 07-03-2019, 02:27 PM
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... Finally, his ideas arenít new. Heís been saying the same damn things for decades, his ideas have just failed to become mainstream because they are so far fetched that they have failed to gain traction among anyone, including other liberals....
I've been hearing that he's consistent, that his positions on issues stay the same because he has conviction. As for "failed to become mainstream" his views that he's held for years were the same things I was hearing from the mouths of most of the other Dem candidates in the debates, like Medicare for All, climate change, get out of the Mideast wars, etc.
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  #218  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:45 PM
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I've been hearing that he's consistent, that his positions on issues stay the same because he has conviction. As for "failed to become mainstream" his views that he's held for years were the same things I was hearing from the mouths of most of the other Dem candidates in the debates, like Medicare for All, climate change, get out of the Mideast wars, etc.
Fair enough, I guess I was drawing more from my observations beginning with his election to the House in 1990 up until before he achieved cult leader like status during the 2016 primaries. Although Iíll admit that a couple of friends and I would volunteer for his House campaigns a few days before the election while we were attending college in Burlington, VT (where his campaign was headquartered) during the 1990s because he always put out a nice spread for his victory parties.

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  #219  
Old 08-20-2019, 03:41 PM
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Alright, following Happy's suggestion in the Biden thread, I will bump this to serve as the Bernie thread. To succinctly explain why I support Sanders:

Policy: He has been a consistent progressive voice since the darkest days of Reaganism. His stances on single-payer health care, decreased military spending, increased funding for education, fighting climate change, relieving student debt, gay equality, legalizing cannabis, etc have all moved from the fringes to the mainstream of the political debate in that time. He offers ideas that will make real improvements in the lives of working class Americans and give them reasons to continue voting Democratic even in the hypothetical future where the Republican candidate isn't a toxic dumpster fire.

He's too damn old. Yes. Yes, he really is, but so are his main Democratic opponents and, perhaps more to the point, so is Trump. So this, although a major weakness, isn't one which should really hurt him in this particular election.

Experience. Other than Biden, nobody can top him in this category. He has served in both houses of Congress and been a small town mayor, which I wouldn't overstate the importance of, but it is executive experience.

Electability Polls consistently show that, other than Biden, he is our best potential candidate. He is especially popular in those Midwestern swing States that we would really like to get back. He is also the most popular candidate among Democrats under 50, a group we need to turn out bigly.

Most of the criticism of him on this ground is based on people's fevered imaginations about how hypothetical GOP attacks might affect him in the general elections. Most of the people who claim to worry about this spent 2016 assuring us that Hillary's unfavorables were "baked in"
  #220  
Old 08-20-2019, 03:47 PM
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If this is going to be an advocacy thread, I guess I'd better cherrypick some polls.

BERNIE LEADS IN COLORADO!!!!

He beats Trump by 8 points nationally, tied with Biden and better than everybody else.

Hell, he's even beating Trump in Texas!
  #221  
Old 08-20-2019, 06:19 PM
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Experience. Other than Biden, nobody can top him in this category.
Oh, come on. Warren, Harris, Booker, Castro, and arguably even Buttigieg beat Sanders on the resume. They all have experience that is more in line with the duties of the Oval Office, not to mention having run political races that aren’t in Vermont.

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  #222  
Old 08-20-2019, 06:56 PM
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He's old. I don't mean age wise, I mean his thinking and politics are stuck in the 70's. He's like an old school western European socialist from the 70's. He opposes nuclear power. I don't mean he opposes new plants, he wants to accelerate the decommissioning of working plants before they are end of life and basically shut them all down as soon as possible. I think that is the wrong move and kind of stupid, to be honest. And it's old thinking.

I'd still vote for him if he gets the nomination over Trump, but I'll do it with a lot more holding of my nose than I did with Hillary and will feel seriously conflicted if he becomes president. Basically, anyone but Trump is my motto, but Bernie would be the least of my choices.
I think I agree with Bernie on much more than you do, but this, to me, is a dealbreaker. (Unless and until he's nominated, of course). We will not win the fight against climate change without nuclear weapons, plain and simple. And Bernie, of all people, would do nuclear power right. He wouldn't be afraid to impose the necessary oversight, no matter what it cost to the power plant owner's bottom line.
  #223  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:03 PM
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Oh, come on. Warren, Harris, Booker, Castro, and arguably even Buttigieg beat Sanders on the resume. They all have experience that is more in line with the duties of the Oval Office, not to mention having run political races that aren’t in Vermont.
I doubt you'd get very broad agreement on that opinion especially "arguably Buttigieg". I mean, come on yourself. Sanders has been a Senator, a congressman and a small town mayor. How does being a midsize town mayor possibly trump that? Or big city mayor Castro with no other elected office history? I don't even know what part of Warren's resume you're thinking of.

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  #224  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:10 PM
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I doubt you'd get very broad agreement on that opinion especially "arguably Buttigieg". I mean, come on yourself. Sanders has been a Senator, a congressman and a small town mayor. How does being a midsize town mayor possibly trump that? Or big city mayor Castro with no other elected office history? I don't even know what part of Warren's resume you're thinking of.
If you donít even know the experience of each of those other candidates, then your argument is inherently fucked up.
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Old 08-20-2019, 08:36 PM
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Oh, come on. Warren, Harris, Booker, Castro, and arguably even Buttigieg beat Sanders on the resume. They all have experience that is more in line with the duties of the Oval Office, not to mention having run political races that arenít in Vermont.
You forgot the guy who actually was in the Oval office.

Mayor Pete? No way.

Warren was/is a Senator, just like Bernie.

Booker= Mayor, Senator. Nope.
  #226  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:47 PM
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This guy has such obnoxious people as his campaign surrogates and staff. His supporters demand perfection from everyone else but have excuses at the hand for him. He voted for the 94' crime bill. He cites that he did it because of two provisions packaged in - the Violence Against Women Act and the Federal Assault Weapons Ban. That he abhorred the rest of it. Yet he also voted against the Amber Alert years later because of other stuff included in the bill. Where's the consistency? Not to mention he paraded being "tough on crime" with that 94 vote a full 12 years after on his website.
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Old 08-20-2019, 08:50 PM
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If you don’t even know the experience of each of those other candidates, then your argument is inherently fucked up.
I know the basic background of all of them except Booker. Without further explanation from you, it seems ridiculous on its face.

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  #228  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:09 PM
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If you donít even know the experience of each of those other candidates, then your argument is inherently fucked up.
So, Wikipedia and their own webpages are incorrect?
  #229  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:20 PM
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Well, obviously he thinks Warren being a prof or serving as a special advisor is more "in line" with the job of president or something. Ditto Castro holding the high flying job of HUD secretary, I assume. Really curious how he would argue Buttigieg though.

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  #230  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:20 PM
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We will not win the fight against climate change without nuclear weapons, plain and simple.
So we bomb the oil companiesí HQs into the Stone Age?

Thatís... thatís brilliant.
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Old 08-21-2019, 06:29 AM
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I know the basic background of all of them except Booker.
So go ahead and explain what all these candidates I mentioned have been doing for their professional life, and why that experience doesnít count. Iím saying that legislative experience isnít the only thing that counts. Candidates have stronger educational backgrounds, more varied experience, more executive experience, private sector experience, etc.

And again, Bernieís experience in Congress is really based on longevity rather than accomplishment. Heís no Ted Kennedy. Just because someone punches a clock at their job for a few decades doesnít mean they are a valuable employee.
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:59 AM
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Yeah, I'll get right on that. After all, it's my duty to prove your statement wrong!
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Old 08-21-2019, 11:55 AM
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So go ahead and explain what all these candidates I mentioned have been doing for their professional life, and why that experience doesnít count. Iím saying that legislative experience isnít the only thing that counts.
You made the statement, you back it up.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:06 PM
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It's not unreasonable to have differences of opinion on what experience is "in line" with the job of President. One could easily think running a government department is great experience for running all the departments. I would argue that Warren's experience pre-elected office was great for a Senator's resume and disagree that it's particularly "in line" with the job requirements of the top job. What prompted my response was the "arguably Buttigieg" because that is so off the wall it smells like saying anything to put Sanders at the bottom of the list. And I am not a Sanders supporter.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:30 PM
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Yeah, Bernie has literally had the same experience as Buttigieg (small town mayor) PLUS nearly 30 years in Congress. That seems like a hard argument to make, no matter how much you downgrade his Congressional experience because he was mostly a gadfly rather than a party leader.

Also, Bernie does have experience founding and running a profitable small business before going into politics, so his private sector experience isn't zero.
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Old 08-21-2019, 02:03 PM
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Alright, following Happy's suggestion in the Biden thread, I will bump this to serve as the Bernie thread....
I guess so, but I really wish you had started a new thread that didn't have such a pessimistic title.

I'm on Twitter and I follow Bernie, he's got a lot of tweets about his policies, the most recent being the one about Criminal justice refom. But I also see a lot of Bernie bashing and ad hominum attacks that just don't make any sense and I find it discouraging.
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Old 08-21-2019, 02:10 PM
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To repair damage done to us and to others throughout the world Trump needs to be defeated so badly that the message of "We will NEVER be this stupid again!" is crystal clear. Bernie just doesn't have the numbers to accomplish this according to every damn poll of consequence out there, sorry.
  #238  
Old 08-21-2019, 02:12 PM
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That seems like a hard argument to make, no matter how much you downgrade his Congressional experience because he was mostly a gadfly rather than a party leader.
Why wasn't he a party leader?
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Old 08-21-2019, 02:55 PM
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Yeah, Bernie has literally had the same experience as Buttigieg...
Being mayor of a city ten times larger is better experience, especially when the focus of one’s mayoralty didn’t revolve around the Contras and Sandinistas.

As for the others, they have academic and executive experience that Sanders does not. He’s like a C+ member of Congress, so his decades of press releases and minor achievements does little. His leadership tenure at the Budget Committee especially has been a big nothing. He’s like the guy who went to Harvard and didn’t work hard, but expects the fact that he went to the Big H to mean something.

Of the group, we have Rhodes Scholars, distinguished Harvard alumni, heads of major agencies, departments, and moderate sized cities with big city problems. Warren’s role the CFPB is ten times more substantive than anything Bernie has ever done, and I think Buttigieg’s brief military service is arguably as significant as a good chunk of Sanders’ congressional tenure, in that Bernie focused press releases and Buttigieg learned some Pashto. IOW, one did something that was marginally significant.

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  #240  
Old 08-21-2019, 03:00 PM
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Why wasn't he a party leader?
Because heís a joke, obviously. I mean, look at all the colleague who respect his issues-based leadership so much that they are lining up to ó oh wait. All the people whoíve worked with Sanders in be Senate and have made an endorsement seem to be endorsing Biden, except one (the other Vermont Senator).
  #241  
Old 08-21-2019, 03:13 PM
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We need someone who can win back the swing voters that went with Trump in 2016. Bernie is pretty radical for even middle of the road voters. Also, Bernie will be 78 next year, which makes his age and VP running mate an issue also. A guy like Biden is a white male with a moderate image. He may very well win the more moderate Republican voters who have been shocked into reality by the horrific words and behavior of Trump.
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:35 PM
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Also, Bernie will be 78 next year, which makes his age and VP running mate an issue also.
And Biden will be 77.
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:39 PM
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Because heís a joke, obviously.
Not what I was going for, but I'll allow it.

Let's see if Thing Fish figures it out.
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:46 PM
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Being mayor of a city ten times larger is better experience, especially when the focus of oneís mayoralty didnít revolve around the Contras and Sandinistas.
It's not 10 times as large, it's a little over double. He isn't mayor of the metropolitan area, he's myor of the city.
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:49 PM
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The issue of VP will be interesting. Both men will probably be obliged to put forward a woman, preferably a woman of colour if possible. But politically Biden will just have another standard democrat by his side (at most a tad to the Left of him). They can work off the same page, in the event the VP has to step up to become POTUS business can carry on as usual. Whereas Bernie might be pressured to have a moderate democrat to placate voters (and the party leadership) of veering to far over but would he ignore it and put forward a similarly minded person? He could give a moderate the nod and just ignore him/her once elected but he'll be in his eighties shortly so in the event something happens to him having a moderate assume the presidency is not business as usual you'd expect as far his agenda is concerned. It may be the VP turned POTUS shifts to the middle.
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:59 PM
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It's not 10 times as large, it's a little over double. He isn't mayor of the metropolitan area, he's myor of the city.
Ok, my mistake. Then amend my statement to strike ďarguablyĒ and insert ďconceivably.Ē
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Old 08-21-2019, 05:17 PM
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To repair damage done to us and to others throughout the world Trump needs to be defeated so badly that the message of "We will NEVER be this stupid again!" is crystal clear. Bernie just doesn't have the numbers to accomplish this according to every damn poll of consequence out there, sorry.
His numbers are only a little worse than Biden's and clearly better than any of the candidates.
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Old 08-21-2019, 05:19 PM
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We need someone who can win back the swing voters that went with Trump in 2016. Bernie is pretty radical for even middle of the road voters. Also, Bernie will be 78 next year, which makes his age and VP running mate an issue also. A guy like Biden is a white male with a moderate image. He may very well win the more moderate Republican voters who have been shocked into reality by the horrific words and behavior of Trump.
So how do you explain the polls showing that Bernie is particularly strong in the Midwestern swing states?
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Old 08-21-2019, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thing Fish View Post
So how do you explain the polls showing that Bernie is particularly strong in the Midwestern swing states?
How strong...and are they the only ones voting this election?
  #250  
Old 08-21-2019, 05:24 PM
Thing Fish is offline
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For most of Bernie's Congressional career, he was the lone socialist voice in Congress. He performed the valuable function of defining the leftward boundary of mainstream American political discourse. He put forth arguments, most prominently on single-payer health care, which are only now starting to enter the mainstream, due in no small part to his tireless advocacy of them.

It's simply not reasonable to evaluate his Congressional career based on how many laws he got passed or how well liked he was by his colleagues. That's not what he was there for. Now that the populace is finally starting to catch up to him, he is a major sponsor of legislation such as Medicare for All and the Green New Deal.
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