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  #51  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
That's a rather ridiculous standard. People are full of silly beliefs instilled by their parents until they get out in the world and learn for themselves. That's ostensibly what college is for.

....
Again, Gabbard was spewing forth some pretty venomous beliefs about gays, not only as an adult, but as a political figure--as a state representative as a matter of fact. No, it's not Henry Hyde and "youthful indiscretions" at the tender age of 48 or whatever the hell he was, but if someone is old enough and politically savvy enough to get elected as a state lawmaker, it's going to take quite a bit to convince me that her words at that time somehow shouldn't count against her, even if she now says she has repented.

As I said in a different thread, I'm glad she's changed her mind (let's assume for the moment that she's sincere in her new belief). But I'd rather support someone whose views didn;t need such a major shakeup. While it's true that most long-time Democratic politicians at one point opposed marriage equality, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any current candidates whose anti-gay rhetoric came anywhere near Gabbard's. I'll pass, thanks.
  #52  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:57 PM
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She was making documented homophobic statements as recently as 2004, when she was 22 years old and an adult, so we can dispense with the 30 years nonsense, thank you.

She has acknowledged and publicly apologized for those statements, saying that her views on LGBTQ people have "evolved" - it's up to each person to decide if they believe her or not.
To throw a bone to the pro-Gabbard folks that was 15 years and ~40% of her lifetime ago. So sure, I can believe hers views have evolved.

To take it back again in 2016 she said her personal views haven't changed, she just now believes legislating morality is wrong. So in my opinion they haven't evolved enough for my comfort.
  #53  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
That's a rather ridiculous standard. People are full of silly beliefs instilled by their parents until they get out in the world and learn for themselves.
I'd accept if she said that, or anything like it, but she's said nothing remotely like that.

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You expect far too much from an individual you have no personal relationship with, and who isn't in the limelight to pursue the issue you want her to talk about.
SHE IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. This is the very definition of the limelight.
  #54  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:14 PM
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That's a rather ridiculous standard.
It isn't, though. It's the same standard pretty much everyone uses. If you don't believe something you said in the past, then you are expected to repudiate it when asked about it. Or, better yet, to have already repudiated it. Age is irrelevant.

It is actually quite common for people to continue with the same beliefs they had as teens. Most do with most of their beliefs.

And of course she has time to do it, as it's part of running for president to make your beliefs clear, and to deal with the skeletons in the closet. If she doesn't have time to do that, then she doesn't have time to run for president.
  #55  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:19 PM
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“Tulsi Gabbard Had a Very Strange Childhood”
(emphasis reduced) Since no one else has flat out said this:

That is not slander. Something being strange is an opinion. Among other things, slander must be a statement of fact.

Now, if you want to argue there's some racial component in calling her childhood strange, you can. However, I would argue that the statement is not racial at all, and is in reference to her unusual religious background.

Despite claims by some on the right, we on the left do not actually always assume that everything is racist.

Last edited by BigT; 08-12-2019 at 06:20 PM.
  #56  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
You expect far too much from an individual you have no personal relationship with, and who isn't in the limelight to pursue the issue you want her to talk about. If she were an LGBT+ activist, I suspect she'd take the time to focus on that. She's not. She's running for president. She doesn't have time or the media bandwidth to spend on the issue.
If she wants votes from LGBTQ voters, she'd better fucking make the time.
  #57  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:46 PM
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However, I would argue that the statement is not racial at all, and is in reference to her unusual religious background.
You would be correct in this. Gabbard herself mostly European, something like 1/8th Samoan at most. She is Hindu in the same way that George Harrison or Russell Brand are Hindu (by conversion).

There's nothing "brown" to go after here. Claiming otherwise is a display of ignorance.
  #58  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:21 PM
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Tulsi Gabbard quote in the Huffington Post dated 1/12/19:

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“First, let me say I regret the positions I took in the past, and the things I said,” Gabbard said. “I’m grateful for those in the LGBTQ+ community who have shared their aloha with me throughout my personal journey.”

“Over the past six years in Congress, I have been fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to help work toward passing legislation that ensures equal rights and protections on LGBTQ+ issues,” she continued.

“Much work remains to ensure equality and civil rights protections for LGBTQ+ Americans and if elected President, I will continue to fight for equal rights for all,” she said.
  #59  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:47 PM
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Warning about the link in the previous post. UMatrix (script blocker) no longer allows it although it did when I originally searched it, so there might be some type of crosslinking. Searching for Huffington Post and Tulsi Gabbard finds it for me though.
  #60  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:59 PM
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“I’m grateful for those in the LGBTQ+ community who have shared their aloha with me throughout my personal journey.”
Okay, is it just me, or does that come across as deeply insincere and patronizing? I think it's the "shared their aloha with me" line which... well, maybe it's a cultural thing in Hawaii and I'm missing out on deep emotional connotations in that phrase, but if you're trying to course-correct for being an advocate for unconscionable bigotry, maybe don't don't take your speech cues off an over-priced coffee mug from the Honolulu Hilton gift shop?
  #61  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:16 PM
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Yeah, I mean, let's look at the meat of this statement:

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First, let me say I regret the positions I took in the past, and the things I said...
Okay... why do you regret them? Is it because they were hurtful? Because they were wrong? That you're a different person now?

Or did you express these regrets on 1/12/2019 because you just announced your presidential candidacy on 1/11/2019? Nah, couldn't possibly be.

Quote:
I’m grateful for those in the LGBTQ+ community who have shared their aloha with me throughout my personal journey.
"My personal journey?" If you're gonna make this about you, then you need to explain exactly what all this aloha-sharing was about.
  #62  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:36 PM
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Wasn't she arguing as recently as last year that people should be allowed to discriminate against homosexuals if they really wanted to they said their religion required them to discriminate?
  #63  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:38 PM
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If she wants votes from LGBTQ voters, she'd better fucking make the time.
Certainly, but then, is that the demographic she's aiming for? Does it really help her to potentially burn the few evangelicals she has for the even fewer LGBT+ who might vote for her if she does spend the time?

She's a politician, she must make these political calculations in regards to how she uses what little public exposure she gets.

I'm definitely not saying someone should vote for her. I'm certainly not hoping she wins the nomination. It's just respectable, in my eyes, that she has discarded a flawed belief for a better one. That's really it.

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This is the very definition of the limelight.
Don't quote from context. I said "isn't in the limelight to pursue the issue you want her to talk about". Yeah, she's in the limelight, but not for LGBT+ advocacy. If she really is deeply regretful, I would think becoming an LGBT+ advocate would be a better use of her time, especially considering the harm she's already caused and the good she could do instead of trying to move past it with just an apology, but it's her life, and right now she's dedicating it to a presidential run.

Doing what you ask of her doesn't seem to have a favorable impact calculus, given her objective.
  #64  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:55 PM
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What's her objective?
  #65  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:07 PM
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What's her objective?
So far as I can tell? Become president. I suppose it's possible she has some nefarious ulterior motive but... I don't really have a substantial reason to believe that.....
  #66  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:15 PM
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Certainly, but then, is that the demographic she's aiming for? Does it really help her to potentially burn the few evangelicals she has for the even fewer LGBT+ who might vote for her if she does spend the time?
She's aiming, at least in part, for progressives not evangelicals( who mostly consider Hindus pagan heretics, if they consider them at all ). Progressives may like some of her bonafides, but anti-LGBT+ is a big, big pill for many to swallow. I know I'm not.
  #67  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:36 AM
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So far as I can tell? Become president. I suppose it's possible she has some nefarious ulterior motive but... I don't really have a substantial reason to believe that.....
I wasn't suggesting a nefarious motive, just that the presidency isn't a particularly realistic objective. You're saying she's got to hold her evangelical "base"? She has to win a primary before she wins the presidency. The evangelical bloc isn't the strongest card.
  #68  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:55 AM
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Certainly, but then, is that the demographic she's aiming for? Does it really help her to potentially burn the few evangelicals she has for the even fewer LGBT+ who might vote for her if she does spend the time?

She's a politician, she must make these political calculations in regards to how she uses what little public exposure she gets.

I'm definitely not saying someone should vote for her. I'm certainly not hoping she wins the nomination. It's just respectable, in my eyes, that she has discarded a flawed belief for a better one. That's really it.
Well, that's the question, isn't it? Has she actually discarded this belief, or is she only saying she has for the sake of political expediency?

I'm not sure the evangelical angle makes sense for her. She's not staking out a position any different than any other candidate in the primary. Unless she's banking on evangelicals thinking she's as insincere as I do, there's no reason for them to back her over Biden, or Harris, or anyone else up there.

Quote:
Don't quote from context.
Before I respond to this part, I just want to note that it was HMS Irruncible who posted that bit about "limelight," not me.

Quote:
I said "isn't in the limelight to pursue the issue you want her to talk about". Yeah, she's in the limelight, but not for LGBT+ advocacy. If she really is deeply regretful, I would think becoming an LGBT+ advocate would be a better use of her time, especially considering the harm she's already caused and the good she could do instead of trying to move past it with just an apology, but it's her life, and right now she's dedicating it to a presidential run.

Doing what you ask of her doesn't seem to have a favorable impact calculus, given her objective.
She is running on the issue, though. It's on her webpage. In the linked speech, she specifically (and literally!) says she'll fight for gay people if she's elected. The question is, is this position sincere, and if it is, is it enough to forgive her previous attacks on queer people?
  #69  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:41 AM
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I said "isn't in the limelight to pursue the issue you want her to talk about".
What a silly position to take. She is running for President. She's in the limelight to talk about whatever issues that Democratic voters want her to talk about, which in recent years has included LGBTQ issues.

And again - I'm not suggesting her platform needs to be heavily overweight on LGBTQ issues, just that she give us an explicit explanation why she stopped working against LGBTQ interests (so we have a reason to trust she won't change course again for political expedience).
  #70  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:40 AM
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Certainly, but then, is that the demographic she's aiming for? Does it really help her to potentially burn the few evangelicals she has for the even fewer LGBT+ who might vote for her if she does spend the time?
I thought about responding to Miller originally, but then thought, nah, don't make this about me.

But turns out I should .

It's not just LGBTQ voters she's alienating. It's LGBTQ voters, and the much larger group of straight people who don't like discrimination, especially if that discrimination continues because of a calculation that LGBTQ voters are a small enough percentage of the electorate that they may safely be thrown under the bus.
  #71  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:13 AM
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Okay, is it just me, or does that come across as deeply insincere and patronizing? I think it's the "shared their aloha with me" line which... well, maybe it's a cultural thing in Hawaii and I'm missing out on deep emotional connotations in that phrase, but if you're trying to course-correct for being an advocate for unconscionable bigotry, maybe don't don't take your speech cues off an over-priced coffee mug from the Honolulu Hilton gift shop?
Yes, it IS a cultural thing in Hawai'i and you ARE missing out on deep emotional connotations. I'm sure you don't mean to be condescending, but dismissing "aloha" as something from an "overpriced coffee mug from the Honolulu Hilton gift shop" comes across as ignorant and hurtful, though I understand it is unintentionally so.

I'm no particular fan of Gabbard, and I'm certainly in no position to claim Hawaiian culture as my own, but I can tell you for sure that the concept of aloha is a very real and treasured thing here. Sneeringly reducing it to a gambit to separate tourists from their money simply shows that you are unfamiliar with Hawai'i.

If Gabbard wants to be a politician on the national stage she'll need to find language that works for everyone. I've been at least peripherally involved in the Pacific for so long that I guess I didn't realize just how unfamiliar the "aloha" concept is to outsiders; I thought it was better known. I guess Gabbard thought so too. Anyway, please cut her some slack on her use of the term "aloha." She may or may not be sincere in characterizing her change of heart with respect to LGBTQ issues, but I can guarantee you her use of the word "aloha" is anything but patronizing.
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  #72  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:22 AM
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To most mainlanders, "aloha" is just the Hawaiian word for "hello" and "goodbye". To the extent that any thought is given, it's just thinking that it's an amusing oddity that the same word is used for both. I happen to know that the literal meaning is "love", and that already puts me at more knowledge than the vast majority. And I'm still missing out on all of that nuance you mention.
  #73  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:16 AM
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Sneeringly reducing it to a gambit to separate tourists from their money simply shows that you are unfamiliar with Hawai'i.
Given that aloha merch is found all over Hawaii, and is a major export of Hawaii, it seems weird to expect that someone who lives 4000 miles away should be more familiar with the "no actually" take on this.

Quote:
She may or may not be sincere in characterizing her change of heart with respect to LGBTQ issues, but I can guarantee you her use of the word "aloha" is anything but patronizing.
How can you guarantee the intent of someone using a particular word? Are you friends with her? Do you possess a longer version of the statement that the rest of us haven't seen?

If a plain translation is "love and compassion" or "good karma" or something deep and reverential, then it sounds extremely patronizing and superficial to name-drop any of that in a policy position, rather than speak plainly about why one changed their minds. (Did she change her mind because of all the alohas? Could she share one particularly moving aloha with us? Do they have magical powers? Most critically, do alohas have a shelf life longer than an election?

If the term doesn't lend itself to plain translation, then it seems like she's being opaque and evasive.

If it's a term that's mainly known in Hawaii, then it's odd she thought mainlanders would understand it.

Anyway, my point isn't to denigrate Hawaii or Aloha or anything, but rather to point out that using a magic word to cover a policy flip makes it look more like an elision strategy than a sincere statement of feeling.
  #74  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:44 AM
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"Gabbard said. “I’m grateful for those in the LGBTQ+ community who have shared their aloha with me throughout my personal journey.”

Aloha can mean goodbye, right?
  #75  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:46 AM
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(Can't edit above. I see I'm too late on the draw with that one.)
  #76  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:55 AM
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Aloha can mean goodbye, right?
Not in this context, no.
  #77  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:11 AM
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If delivered with a sweet smile, it can mean "Fuck off".
  #78  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:17 AM
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FWIW, she's taking two weeks off the campaign trail this summer for service with the Hawaii National Guard. She criticizes Assad in this article: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tulsi-g...ational-guard/
  #79  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:54 AM
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FWIW, she's taking two weeks off the campaign trail this summer for service with the Hawaii National Guard. She criticizes Assad in this article: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tulsi-g...ational-guard/
So, what job in the National Guard does this anti-war pacifist do?
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:07 PM
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Ah, here we go. As recently as January 10 of this year, she was on record that people should be allowed to discriminate against homosexuals.

So, did she have some massive change of heart sometime between January 10 and January 12? A lot of her fellow Hawaiians shared their aloha with her in those two days? Because it's kind of hard to fight for the rights of homosexuals while you're simultaneously calling anyone who fights for the rights of homosexuals a bigot.
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:13 PM
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Ah, here we go. As recently as January 10 of this year, she was on record that people should be allowed to discriminate against homosexuals.

So, did she have some massive change of heart sometime between January 10 and January 12? A lot of her fellow Hawaiians shared their aloha with her in those two days? Because it's kind of hard to fight for the rights of homosexuals while you're simultaneously calling anyone who fights for the rights of homosexuals a bigot.
Did she call anyone who fights for the rights of homosexuals a bigot or just someone who is a religious bigot?

Did you link to the wrong cite. Your cite shows her standing up to religious bigotry.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 08-13-2019 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:21 PM
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Did she call anyone who fights for the rights of homosexuals a bigot or just someone who is a religious bigot?

Did you link to the wrong cite. Your cite shows her standing up to religious bigotry.
Give up-go find another candidate that the Republicans can push over like a domino.
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:32 PM
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...Did you link to the wrong cite. Your cite shows her standing up to religious bigotry.
Hardly. It shows her to accuse those standing up against religious bigotry to be religious bigots, which is stupid and wrong. Opposition to bigotry does not make one "bigoted" against bigotry.

"Buescher was asked about his public statements during his 2014 campaign, his position on issues such as abortion as well as his membership in the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic fraternal society.
The organization has in recent years taken steps into the political realm, funding anti-same-sex marriage initiatives in a number of states."

Last edited by bobot; 08-13-2019 at 01:33 PM.
  #84  
Old 08-13-2019, 01:33 PM
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What she calls "religious bigotry" is people saying that you shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against gays. If your religion says that you must discriminate against gays, then your religion is bad, and people should speak out against it.

Czarcasm, I don't think WillFarnaby supports Gabbard because she'd be an easy opponent for Republicans. I think he supports her because she's a bigoted, pro-war authoritarian, and WillFarnaby loves all of those things.
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:46 PM
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Given that aloha merch is found all over Hawaii, and is a major export of Hawaii, it seems weird to expect that someone who lives 4000 miles away should be more familiar with the "no actually" take on this.


How can you guarantee the intent of someone using a particular word? Are you friends with her? Do you possess a longer version of the statement that the rest of us haven't seen?

If a plain translation is "love and compassion" or "good karma" or something deep and reverential, then it sounds extremely patronizing and superficial to name-drop any of that in a policy position, rather than speak plainly about why one changed their minds. (Did she change her mind because of all the alohas? Could she share one particularly moving aloha with us? Do they have magical powers? Most critically, do alohas have a shelf life longer than an election?

If the term doesn't lend itself to plain translation, then it seems like she's being opaque and evasive.

If it's a term that's mainly known in Hawaii, then it's odd she thought mainlanders would understand it.

Anyway, my point isn't to denigrate Hawaii or Aloha or anything, but rather to point out that using a magic word to cover a policy flip makes it look more like an elision strategy than a sincere statement of feeling.
I think you are conflating your disdain for Gabbard with my observation that aloha is a concept that people in Hawaii genuinely take seriously. Make no mistake, I think Gabbard has dreadful beliefs, and she has zero business running for president. None of that negates the validity of aloha as an idea.

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Last edited by CairoCarol; 08-13-2019 at 01:48 PM.
  #86  
Old 08-13-2019, 01:49 PM
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Chronos is correct.

In up is down, black is white WillFarnaby world...

Clinton was more Hawkish than Trump in 2016.
NATO is a warlike organization as opposed to the most successful peacekeeping organization of all time.
The North started the Civil war.
And Lincoln is the worst president in the history of the USA.
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:59 PM
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Missed the edit window: what I really wanted to say is that my objection is to reducing aloha to "an over-priced coffee mug from the Honolulu Hilton gift shop." Gabbard grew up in Hawaii, so it is virtually impossible that she doesn't have a deeper understanding of the word. But believe me, I am NOT trying to defend her, or her remarks about the LGBTQ community, in any way, shape or form.


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Last edited by CairoCarol; 08-13-2019 at 02:00 PM.
  #88  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:52 PM
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Aloha can mean goodbye, right?
It can, especially when following a “Book ‘em, Danno” from Hawaii Five-O's Detective Steve McGarrett.
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:09 PM
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So, what job in the National Guard does this anti-war pacifist do?
I don't back her candidacy, but I believe one can be anti-war without being a pacifist, especially given the US military's experiences since 2001. Here's Wiki on her military record; looks like she's primarily a military police officer and trainer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsi_...litary_service
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
Chronos is correct.

In up is down, black is white WillFarnaby world...

Clinton was more Hawkish than Trump in 2016.
NATO is a warlike organization as opposed to the most successful peacekeeping organization of all time.
The North started the Civil war.
And Lincoln is the worst president in the history of the USA.
Knock it off. If you want to take shots at other posters, or bring up unrelated items to take shots at other posters, do it in the Pit.

[/moderating]
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:30 PM
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I think you are conflating your disdain for Gabbard with my observation that aloha is a concept that people in Hawaii genuinely take seriously.
I think you're conflating disparagement of aloha-branded coffee cups with a disparagement of Hawaiian customs. So there we are.
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Old 08-13-2019, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The antiwar candidate will always be slandered. It has been true for the entire history of the United States.
This thread is about Gabbard's background and her membership in various organizations. This thread is not about which candidate is antiwar or not antiwar. Drop the war related hijack.

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Old 08-13-2019, 05:28 PM
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I think you're conflating disparagement of aloha-branded coffee cups with a disparagement of Hawaiian customs. So there we are.
Tee hee. I like it.

Objection first: It's hard to read Miller's comment maybe don't don't take your speech cues off an over-priced coffee mug from the Honolulu Hilton gift shop as anything but a characterization of the term "aloha" as a cheap tourist ploy. I would simply like to make it clear that the concept "aloha" doesn't reduce to that, anymore than the Statue of Liberty's symbolism reduces to nothing but cynical branding just because it is depicted on souvenir keychains.

Conciliatory statement second: I don't think for a minute that there is any deep-seated disparagement of Hawaiian culture intended by anyone in this thread. Ignorance, as long as it isn't willful, is a lot more easily cured than bigotry. My only reason for posting is to combat possible ignorance on what somebody born and raised in Hawaii means by aloha.

Was Gabbard sincere in her attempt to sound like she's no longer anti-gay? I for one am doubtful. But was she purposefully reducing the issue to a hollow, meaningless phrase? I don't think so.

And now I'm done, in part because this isn't a big deal and in part because I agree with a lot of what you've said in this thread, so I can't imagine why I'd want to be arbitrarily argumentative. Aloha!

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Last edited by CairoCarol; 08-13-2019 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 08-14-2019, 11:57 AM
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Just to be clear, it was the specific phrase “share their aloha” that I was questioning, not just “aloha” by itself.
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Old 08-14-2019, 05:37 PM
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Just to be clear, it was the specific phrase “share their aloha” that I was questioning, not just “aloha” by itself.
Agreed, we all could have been clearer about that.

I think most of us understand that 'aloha' is a culturally appropriated thing that Hawaiians respect in deeper ways than we appreciate.

As I see it, that makes it even worse that Gabbard seems to be using it to bullshit her way through some very un-aloha words and actions in her not-too-distant past, the day after she declared her candidacy.
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Old 09-08-2019, 12:35 AM
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Wow, she seems entirely unelectable at the national level, and her campaign logo is at best uninspired, at worst... what a nuke looks like going off at night. Who picks a yellow gradient to brown/black for a campaign logo??
  #97  
Old 09-08-2019, 12:36 PM
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Lesbian I get, that's from Teenage Lesbian Stewardesses from Outer Space, where they make out with each other rather than the cable guy. Gay I get, Bi means just flexible and/or indecisive. T means "trans", which is a bit harder to get. "Queer" throws me off since it seems a separate category which is somehow distinct from any of the previous... but hey! consensual adults that do their own thing and don't scare the horses, sure, fine and whatever.

But what's the "plus sign" about?
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Old 09-08-2019, 03:01 PM
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But what's the "plus sign" about?
As we as a society become more accepting of variation in sexual orientation and gender, and have a better of understanding of people's unique differences, we've realized that there are a lot more possibilities than just the ones included in the words represented by LGBTQ. Rather than try to include every possibility, the plus allows for a wide variety, and also for new possibilities that may be identified going forward.

Intersex, non-binary, pansexual, asexual and gender-fluid are a few of the terms that I am familiar with, but there are plenty of online lists of terms that can fit under the "plus" umbrella.
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Old 09-08-2019, 04:46 PM
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I thought that Q was already meant to be an umbrella for all of the various non-mainstream variants of sexuality.
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