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Old 01-21-2020, 07:49 PM
Kimstu is offline
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 23,236
Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post
Do any of those low-murder rate countries have an entrenched underclass comparable to the USA's African-Americans?
This is a super-sloppy (not to mention super-sketchy) way of putting it. It is not true that African-Americans in general constitute an "underclass", as nearly half of African-Americans are socioeconomically middle-class or above, and a much smaller percentage of African-Americans have incomes below the poverty line.

What I think you're clumsily trying to say is that the USA's entrenched underclass is disproportionately African-American, not that African-Americans as a group constitute an entrenched underclass.

Originally Posted by Lumpy
Because if not you're congratulating gun control for an effect that's the result of having an ethnically and socially homogeneous population.
That likewise seems to be a gross misstatement. An "ethnically and socially homogeneous population" doesn't necessarily correlate with low violence levels. Consider Lithuania, for example, which has a murder rate comparable to that of the US but is over 83% ethnically Lithuanian, with the largest minority groups Poles and Russians. Ukraine is also very homogeneous, almost entirely white and over 77% Ukrainian, but has a murder rate more than twice that of the US.

Originally Posted by Lumpy
It's an uncomfortable but undeniable fact that if you could count only non-African Americans, America's violence ranking in the world would drop precipitously.
Not that precipitously, actually. If you consider murder statistics, for example, the US has about 5.3 murders per 100,000 people annually, on par with countries like Niger, Sudan, Zambia, and Cuba. If you disregarded approximately half those murders in an attempt to "count only non-African Americans", the US murder rate would be about 2.7, on par with countries like Egypt, Libya, Iran, and Azerbaijan.

Most other highly developed countries, on the other hand, have murder rates under 1.5 (e.g., the UK, France, Germany, Sweden) and in many cases under 1 (e.g., Ireland, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Australia, Norway).

So no, not buying the "it's all the blacks' fault" line of argument here. It's just a red herring to distract attention from the significant impact of gun proliferation.

Last edited by Kimstu; 01-21-2020 at 07:50 PM.
Old 01-21-2020, 09:11 PM
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Lumpy is offline
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Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota US
Posts: 16,753
Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
:So no, not buying the "it's all the blacks' fault" line of argument here. It's just a red herring to distract attention from the significant impact of gun proliferation.
What proliferation? Again, gun violence in the USA has not tracked the number or availability of firearms, as one would expect from a naive epidemiological model of guns as vectors of injury and death. ETA: in fact oddly enough, gun homicides and gun suicides geographically track completely differently!

Last edited by Lumpy; 01-21-2020 at 09:14 PM.


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