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  #801  
Old 05-19-2019, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
It all goes back to their decision to wrap up the series in 13 episodes. Once that was locked in, they were doomed.
I agree--too large a canvas, too many characters, too many plot-lines.
  #802  
Old 05-19-2019, 06:11 PM
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I think people are actually under-criticizing the quality of the last two seasons. Because not only did we get a bunch of bad scenes, but just as importantly, we didn't get a bunch of good scenes we should've got.

We've spent 8 years building this world and these characters - there's all the investment and dramatic potential in this world to mine, and we're just covering the basic points for the most part and not creating the potentially amazing character payoff scenes we could have.

We've had a few - for example, the Jaime/Tyrion scene in this episode was good - but with all of the inherent drama in finishing this story, we should have 30 scenes like that, not 5 or 6.
  #803  
Old 05-19-2019, 06:28 PM
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I agree, and also I think other than some minor choices with how some things happened this season has not been so bad. The shitty parts were baked in from choices made before this season. If you changed a few things about the battle of Winterfell and the death of Rhaegal the season would be mostly well received. That petition to rewrite the season is entirely about Dany's heel turn, something that was pre determined from day 1.
  #804  
Old 05-19-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
We've had a few - for example, the Jaime/Tyrion scene in this episode was good - but with all of the inherent drama in finishing this story, we should have 30 scenes like that, not 5 or 6.
Are you thinking of a specific series that ended with 30 great scenes in its final season?
  #805  
Old 05-19-2019, 06:46 PM
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I can think of a series that had 30 great scenes each of its first four seasons. Does that count?

Or.. Breaking Bad.


If we didn't truncate seasons 7 and 8, there would be plenty of time for 30 great character scenes. Seasons 1-4 of the show were almost all just great character scenes. And now we've had more investment and development of all our characters, meaning that the final season should actually be more rich for mining great character scenes. But there've only been a very few - Jaime knighting Brienne, Jaime and Tyrion's last conversation............. Varys' last scene with Tyrion maybe... there are probably others but I'm not recalling them immediately. Maybe you could say Arya/Hound's final scene was kind of sweet but it feels pretty minimalistic. Tormund and Jon after defeating the Night King maybe. This show used to be chock full of this stuff.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 05-19-2019 at 06:46 PM.
  #806  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:20 PM
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I can think of a series that had 30 great scenes each of its first four seasons. Does that count?
No, of course that doesn't count.

So yeah, Breaking Bad. That's our benchmark? This show's final season should at least be Breaking Bad good? Seems unfair. This show was never as well written as that. This show's cleverness was breaking some tropes most notably being willing to kill some beloved characters. Otherwise, it's pretty basic.

Last edited by CarnalK; 05-19-2019 at 07:23 PM.
  #807  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:31 PM
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Oh right. I forgot this show was always a piece of shit, thank you for the correction.
  #808  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
This show's cleverness was breaking some tropes most notably being willing to kill some beloved characters. Otherwise, it's pretty basic.
That's just complete bs.
  #809  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:44 PM
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I didn't say "piece of shit" and I don't think that. I think a lot of people got fooled by a grandiosity of scale nto thinking this was more than it was. I like it, it's good but I never really got this "groundbreaking!" feeling others apparently felt.
  #810  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:49 PM
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Yeah, I definitely get the sense that some of us are here for the story, and others are here for the recreational outrage.

That's great for them as enjoy it. Me, if there's an interpretation that leads to an interesting story, I'll take that any day over the one-up attempts to show how terrible the story could be, given less interesting interpretations.
This is, quite frankly, assholish behavior.

If you want to disagree with other people's opinions about the show, that's fine, but it's pretty fucking jerkish to suggest that the opinions you disagree with aren't even genuine, and are little more than attempts at self-aggrandizement or recreational outrage.

You act like the critics actually WANT the show to be bad, to satisfy some inner sense of self-righteousness or superiority. Has it occurred to you that, having invested over seven seasons' worth of viewing, we really wanted the last season to be great, and are genuinely disappointed that it's fallen short of our hopes and expectations?

If there's recreational outrage or one-upmanship in this thread, it's coming from the likes of you, and I'm not going to bother with it any more, nor with opening the thread for tonight's show. It's a waste of time.
  #811  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Yeah, I definitely get the sense that some of us are here for the story, and others are here for the recreational outrage.

That's great for them as enjoy it. Me, if there's an interpretation that leads to an interesting story, I'll take that any day over the one-up attempts to show how terrible the story could be, given less interesting interpretations.
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Originally Posted by mhendo View Post
This is, quite frankly, assholish behavior.

If you want to disagree with other people's opinions about the show, that's fine, but it's pretty fucking jerkish to suggest that the opinions you disagree with aren't even genuine, and are little more than attempts at self-aggrandizement or recreational outrage.
Not all are, by any stretch. But posts like this--i.e., THE ONE I WAS REPLYING TO?
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Originally Posted by Go_Arachnid_Laser View Post
Honestly, I think I'm enjoying all the global hate-watching more than any actual GoT episode since the Red Wedding.
Yeah, when someone talks about how much they're enjoying the hate-watching, that's pretty much textbook recreational outrage.

edit: as for the one-upsmanship, there are like 10,000 Game of Thrones Is Trash memes to back me up on this one.

I guess I should've reused the #notallquibbles hashtag. Consider it used.

I should've been clearer originally on that subject, and I apologize. If I wasn't replying to you, and if you've not been engaged in the hate-watching extravaganza, I should be 100% clear I'm not talking about you.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 05-19-2019 at 07:57 PM.
  #812  
Old 05-19-2019, 10:12 PM
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I think the analysis posted upthread (I can't find the post) nailed it:

1. The last 1.5 seasons have moved from telling a sociological story (where we need to understand all the competing factions, roles and responsibilities to understand many of the events) to a psychological story (where it's just about particular individuals' motivations).
There's nothing wrong with the latter, but it's a different style from earlier GoT and why many enjoyed those seasons.

2. The psychological story hasn't been written well. Danys transition was indeed set up throughout the series, it was just bungled in execution.
It could have been done in a way where Dany was so provoked in the moment, not just the lead up, that we would be cheering for Dany. And then it zooms in on the carnage below, and we notice there are bells ringing in the background...

Some of the best TV of recent years has managed to do this: make you empathize with the villian then show you the full implications of their actions.

Instead, the bells are ringing, everyone has stopped fighting, and there's a long pause, and Dany just decides "To hell with it". I can't empathize or relate to that in any way.

Last edited by Mijin; 05-19-2019 at 10:15 PM.
  #813  
Old 05-19-2019, 10:16 PM
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Dany didn't decide in that moment to burn the city. She decided before they fight even began, when she said "it will be fear, then" - in that moment she was just steeling herself to mentally prepare herself to actually execute her plan.
  #814  
Old 05-19-2019, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
Dany didn't decide in that moment to burn the city. She decided before they fight even began, when she said "it will be fear, then" - in that moment she was just steeling herself to mentally prepare herself to actually execute her plan.
Let's put it this way.
We can interpret Danys actions in broadly one of two ways:
1: She is a monster, ala Joffrey or Ramsey, but she has been repressed all this time, and finally the monster is uncaged.
or
2: She is someone who started out with good intentions (free the slaves, break the wheel) but events have gradually shaped her into being more and more ruthless until her original goals (and much of her sense of humanity) are gone.

The episode made perfect sense in terms of (1). And I know there are many who will say that (1) is the correct interpretation, after all look how she treated the Tarlys, slave owners etc etc.

But I think they had set up (2) for most of the seasons. Her actions are inititally justifiable but gradually become less so over time. It's actually a great build up. And this episode needed to carry that through to the end, with a believable final jump. Like I say, if done right the audience would even have been rooting for her, then later feel bad for doing so.

Last edited by Mijin; 05-19-2019 at 10:29 PM.
  #815  
Old 05-19-2019, 10:41 PM
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That's the cleverness of her story. Her story looks like a standard trope-laden fantasy story. She's the chosen one. She comes from nothing (except for being the chosen one). She beats progressively harder bad guys and gets more powerful. She gains followers, accomplishes great deeds. All standard fantasy stuff.

But the subversion is this: during the early parts of her story, most of the time, her goals of gaining power line up nicely with her goals of defeating evil people, so you start rooting for her, as the chosen one who eradicates evil. But it's generally clear all along that her real goal is what she feels like is her right and her destiny - the iron throne. Over and over again, we see her want to resort to doing awful things but being restrained from doing so. And what she actually does ends up doing good for the world overall, so we think she's the hero of the story and the one we root for.

But then her circumstances change. The moderating influence of her advisors are gone. And more importantly, her actual goal of getting power for herself no longer lines up neatly with being a good guy. In Essos, she was burning slavers. In Westeros, she's burning regular old noblemen and levied armies.

Her goal was always her own power and her sense of destiny towards the iron throne. She was lucky that circumstances lined up so that pursuing that and doing good things (freeing slaves, etc.) happened to line up perfectly. When they no longer lined up, she still chose her own power, as she always had before. It's clever. It's what appears to be a standard fantasy hero story, and just as we're rooting for her, she does what she does all along, just with changed circumstances.
  #816  
Old 05-19-2019, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
Let's put it this way.
We can interpret Danys actions in broadly one of two ways:
1: She is a monster, ala Joffrey or Ramsey, but she has been repressed all this time, and finally the monster is uncaged.
or
2: She is someone who started out with good intentions (free the slaves, break the wheel) but events have gradually shaped her into being more and more ruthless until her original goals (and much of her sense of humanity) are gone.
Neither of those is the case, and the problem is reducing in this way into two simplistic choices. And the show doesn't do this, and never has. Nearly all the characters are a very complex combination of good and evil impulses. Dany had both those elements in her character from the beginning. It's just as she has come closer to the power she sought she became more and more ruthless.

And even at the end, she wasn't a monster of the kind of Joffrey and Ramsay. They simply wanted to cause suffering as an end in itself. She still wants to do good, but she's monomaniacal in believing that she is the only one who gets to decide what is good, and is prepared to go to any lengths to pursue it.

Tyrion, in his speech to Jon in his cell, actually gave an excellent summary of Dany's personality and why he and others supported her for so long, as long as the people she was destroying were worse than she was.
  #817  
Old 05-20-2019, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
Her goal was always her own power and her sense of destiny towards the iron throne. She was lucky that circumstances lined up so that pursuing that and doing good things (freeing slaves, etc.) happened to line up perfectly.
This is not true. Examples have been given upthread where she did compassionate things in ways which could have got her in trouble or lost some degree of respect. Now as it happens many of those things later were beneficial but that doesn't mean that would have been obvious to her and the reason she did it.

Quote:
It's clever. It's what appears to be a standard fantasy hero story, and just as we're rooting for her, she does what she does all along, just with changed circumstances.
Again, I agree it was clever. I've said as much. I just think the execution in this episode was botched.
  #818  
Old 05-20-2019, 12:31 AM
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Neither of those is the case, and the problem is reducing in this way into two simplistic choices.
And the show doesn't do this, and never has. Nearly all the characters are a very complex combination of good and evil impulses.
"Never has", "nearly all", which is it?

Quote:
Dany had both those elements in her character from the beginning. It's just as she has come closer to the power she sought she became more and more ruthless.
But this is basically what I was trying to describe with option 2. I'm not saying she was lawful good. Just she had some noble goals, not merely power as an end in itself.

And again, I actually like the story. Nothing wrong with her completing her arc / journey with "burn them all".
It was just done badly, in a way I couldn't really buy, and the reception it's got reflects that.

Last edited by Mijin; 05-20-2019 at 12:32 AM.
  #819  
Old 05-20-2019, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
Dany didn't decide in that moment to burn the city. She decided before they fight even began, when she said "it will be fear, then" - in that moment she was just steeling herself to mentally prepare herself to actually execute her plan.
The showrunners said she decided in that moment. Something about seeing the Red Keep, which her family built, and Cersei was there, or something.
  #820  
Old 05-20-2019, 02:15 AM
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Well they're bad at knowing that sort of thing, apparently.
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