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Old 04-19-2019, 04:01 PM
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Cannabidiol (CBD) for treating anxiety


I have recently begun experimenting with cannabidiol (CBD) as a treatment for anxiety. I have been treated with conventional pharmaceuticals and therapy off and for 40 years, without any positive results, so I decided to try something outside the box. CBD seems to be getting a lot of press lately, so I figured what the hell.

I did my research and found a supplier online that has good reviews and third party lab tests. I started with a full spectrum tincture, 2500mg of CBD from hemp oil in 30mL of coconut oil. The bottle says one serving is one dropper full, or about 83mg of CBD. Based on my research, many people start with much less, maybe 30-40mg per day. I tried two drops under the tongue, twice a day. At about 10mg per drop, that is 40mg.

The first day I thought I detected a mild relaxation quality. Nothing miraculous, just moved the needle enough to say, "hmmm..."

The second day I tried 4 drops (about half a dropper full), three times a day, or about 120mg. This time I didn't note any change in my anxiety level.

The third day, I tried a full dropper, three times a day. Not only did I not experience any reduction in anxiety level, I felt like it had increased somewhat.

I decided to back off to 2 drops, three times a day. In the mean time, I ordered a vaping pen and CBD cartridge, to see if a different delivery system made a difference.

I am a former smoker and long time marijuana user up until 20 years ago, when i quit both. So vaping should not be completely foreign to me. I chose a strawberry lemonade flavor cartridge with 200mg of CBD in .5mL of triethyl citrate, terpenes and natural flavors.

I found the vaping to be kind of nasty, to be honest. It didn't taste like strawberry lemonade. It tasted like a bad cigarette, or a joint rolled out of old roaches. It also tasted kind of hot.

I have been using the CBD for five days, with varying results. Hopefully, there will be a cumulative effect as I use it daily over the next few weeks.

I would be interested in anyone else's experience in using CBD products for the treatment of anxiety.
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Old 04-20-2019, 12:38 AM
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Different delivery mechanisms change how you perceive the effects. Vaping (lungs) gets a more immediate spike, while edibles like gummies take a while to take effect and produce a lower level but perhaps longer lasting. Hard to overdo a vape; I could see sublingual drops being easier to mis-dose.

Assuming you're in the U.S. then currently, and very sadly, the ingredients & even listed CBD dosage aren't independently monitored or verified. I've noticed a big difference between brands. Some are quite harsh, like you experienced - the added terpenes seem to cause this, IME. A few types I've tried don't have added terpenes, and are so "light" feeling, it almost seems like nothing was vaped. One giveaway is color, I feel the cartridges with darker contents give a harsher vape.

So a scattershot approach may be best at first. Try a couple different types. You'd be surprised at the deals on Groupon, of all places. There's one disposable mini CBD pen constantly listed for, like, ten bucks. Not much investment for a trial, there.
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
I would be interested in anyone else's experience in using CBD products for the treatment of anxiety.
Just know that whatever info you get will be completely anecdotal. There is virtually zero credible scientific evidence on the effects of CBD (and the various forms of THC) for medical purposes out there.

That will change now that it's legal, but it will take some time to get useful studies completed.
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Old 04-20-2019, 01:08 PM
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I dunno, a search on "peer reviewed studies cannabidiol" in Google Scholar returns over 2000 results going back over a decade--the info is out there, it's just not widely disseminated. The prohibition of studies of cannabis have always been much more stringent in the US than in the rest of the world and while we were being refused any meaningful scientific research the rest of the world was doing it for us.
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Old 04-20-2019, 10:47 PM
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My best friend, who has never been one to smoke anything, decided to give it a try a few months back because her only option had been medications that brought side effects she could not live with. Her anxiety is mostly social. She has a high stress job and she's a bit of a 'high strung' person. She didn't expect much and for about three weeks didn't notice any difference. Then she did. She said it felt like she was less on edge in general. This is the kind you can get legally in TN, not anything that will give you a buzz so I don't know. My anecdote is not evidence I know. I also go to a support group with a parent who gives his 20 year old autistic son the oil and he swears it's changed his son's behavior as well. In fact a lot of my autistic friends think it's really helpful. If it ever gets cheap enough that I can give it a shot I might. I'd much rather have the real thing, to be honest. To me cannabis is like a miracle drug. It helps me ten different ways. Sadly it's illegal and I have no way to get it anymore.
Here's something my FB support group has linked. I don't know how to read all this but maybe there's some hint of evidence somewhere in here. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5938896/
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:06 PM
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Fear Itself, you posted this about a month ago. I'm giving it a bump to ask you if you're still using the CBD oil, and if so, what are you experiencing with it?
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:32 PM
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I am still using it. I have settled on about 100mg a day. I use a half an eye dropper (about 40mg) of CBD oil under my tongue in the morning, and again at night. Mid day, I vape about 3 healthy drags, I would estimate 20mg.

It isn't a miracle drug. But it does take the edge off. I notice a dropoff that lasts for several hours. It's not like my anxiety vanishes, but it is more tolerable. Anything that moves the needle is good.

I am currently buying hemp derived CBD oil from an online supplier that has been tested by third party labs and gets a good score for strength and purity. But I still wonder if cannabis derived CBD oil from a dispensary would be more effective. My doctor said he would certify me for a medical marijuana card (required in my state) so I can buy it locally from a dispensary.

So, the results are encouraging, but not stupendous. The search continues.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:58 PM
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Thanks so much for that prompt reply. I appreciate it. All the best to you.
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:25 AM
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I have a friend who has his medical card and he's discovered through trial and error that he needs to have some THC present to alleviate his anxiety issues.
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SmartAleq View Post
I dunno, a search on "peer reviewed studies cannabidiol" in Google Scholar returns over 2000 results going back over a decade--the info is out there, it's just not widely disseminated. The prohibition of studies of cannabis have always been much more stringent in the US than in the rest of the world and while we were being refused any meaningful scientific research the rest of the world was doing it for us.
Did you actually check out those links? They don't link to what I'd call high quality studies. One of the first 5 links summarized the situation:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...-2018082414476
Quote:
The bottom line on cannabidiol

Some CBD manufacturers have come under government scrutiny for wild, indefensible claims, such that CBD is a cure-all for cancer, which it is not. We need more research but CBD may be prove to be an option for managing anxiety, insomnia, and chronic pain. Without sufficient high-quality evidence in human studies we can’t pinpoint effective doses, and because CBD is currently is mostly available as an unregulated supplement, it’s difficult to know exactly what you are getting. If you decide to try CBD, talk with your doctor — if for no other reason than to make sure it won’t affect other medications you are taking.
Which is basically what I'm saying.
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:46 AM
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They just opened a CBD store in the mall closest to my house. While I like having the stores occupied, I was not sure how I felt about seeing this sign. Unsure whether CBD is essentially snakeoil or a harmless means of separating gullible people from their money. So is a CBD store any different than one of those vitamin/supplement stores? Or if it is legitimate medicine, couldn't it be sold in the adjacent Osco drug store. Not quite the equivalent of a dispensary - pot isn't legal (yet) here in IL. But (snob alert), given the nature of our community, I wouldn't be thrilled with certain other businesses (tattoo shop? massage parlor?) opening there either.
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Old 05-22-2019, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
I have a friend who has his medical card and he's discovered through trial and error that he needs to have some THC present to alleviate his anxiety issues.
This seems like a worthwhile experiment. Taking CBD with a very small amount of an Indica might just be the ticket.
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Old 05-22-2019, 09:42 AM
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They just opened a CBD store in the mall closest to my house.
That mall? By the Osco? It's a strip mall, so what do you expect? But I agree; a CBD store would be more appropriate in a déclassé strip mall, like in Glendale Heights across from Menard's. (nose in the air because Lombard doesn't have one that I know about.)
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:19 AM
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That mall? By the Osco? It's a strip mall, so what do you expect? But I agree; a CBD store would be more appropriate in a déclassé strip mall, like in Glendale Heights across from Menard's. (nose in the air because Lombard doesn't have one that I know about.)
Man, you are behind the times! I've moved my snootiness 2 suburbs east of you! Talking about the Jewel/Osco at York and Butterfield.

Yeah, I don't know the real reason for my reaction. I realize that the strip malls I drive past on Roosevelt, St Charles, or North are in SOMEBODY'S neighborhood. And so long as it is a legal business, I guess I'd just as soon my town receive the sales tax!
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:48 AM
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I've been trying it to help me sleep better at night and haven't noticed anything. It seems there are too many variables to control for (source of CBD, amount, time of day, method of ingestion, blah blah) and it's a fairly expensive habit to just play around with. I probably won't buy any more after this bottle is gone but I have MANY, MANY friends who swear by it so, I just dunno.
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Old 05-24-2019, 01:24 PM
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Study on using cannabidiol to reduce cravings and anxiety while treating opioid addiction.
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Old 05-25-2019, 06:30 AM
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I have noticed less discomfort from an old shoulder injury since I have been using CBD, though that is not why I started using it.
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Old 05-25-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
Just know that whatever info you get will be completely anecdotal. There is virtually zero credible scientific evidence on the effects of CBD (and the various forms of THC) for medical purposes out there.

That will change now that it's legal, but it will take some time to get useful studies completed.
If you add up enough anecdotes you get data. It's only observational-study quality data, not double-blind prospective-study quality data. But it's meaningful information.

My BIL had chronic back pain and was able to substantially cut back the amount if opioid pain killer he used when he started using cannabis. I don't really care if that's a placebo or "real", it seems like a win. Cannabis is much less likely to kill you than opioids.
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Old 05-25-2019, 09:53 AM
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If you add up enough anecdotes you get data.
I disagree. the plural of anecdote is not data, for the vast majority of cases.

Why not? Because of the haphazard way anecdotes are collected, for one reason. It's not systematically collected, cannot consistently be lumped together for analysis, and when people try, it leads to incorrect conclusions.

I'm all for collecting more data. I am for more research being done on CBD and THC, to find what uses they have in medicine. I favor legalization of pot. I don't even thing it's wrong for experienced clinicians to suggest to patients they may want to try CBD or THC or pot in certain circumstances; the history of Medicine is built on using meds before we have a clear understand of what they do or how.

But I shudder to see the way pot and its derivatives are being presented to the public, as proven cures for nearly everything that ails a person. And a lot of folks are making a lot of money by doing that.
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Old 05-25-2019, 10:18 AM
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My dad was a doctor. He discovered that methotrexate could be used to treat primary biliary cirrhosis. He discovered that base on two anecdotes.

He had one patient who consulted with him who was dying of something else, and also had primary biliary cirrhosis. The other doctor sent him to my dad for a second opinion before giving him a drug that the literature then said was bad for his liver. My dad thought his other problems would kill him first, and okayed the methotrexate. A couple years later the guy showed up to see if it was still okay for him to take it. My father, after getting over his astonishment that the man was still alive, did liver tests and found his liver had improved -- something that has never been recorded for someone with that problem. He told the guy that whatever he was doing seemed to be working, and he should keep doing it.

The next time he had a patient with primary biliary cirrhosis, he asked the guy, "are you a gambler?", and gave him methotrexate. He, too, improved.

Then he got funding for a formal double blind prospective study. That study was ended early on the grounds that it was unethical to withhold the drug from the controls. And he spent much of the rest of his life flying around the world speaking about the treatment of primary biliary cirrhosis.

Two anecdotes. I really do think that was data.

Do you need to be careful evaluating unverified stories you find on the internet? Of course. Do people lie to make money? Of course. But I think there's value in asking people you have some social connection with (like other posters here, some of whom you may know somewhat well) and who aren't in the business of selling CBD, what their experience has been.
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Old 05-25-2019, 12:51 PM
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You only need two points to define a line, and with that line you can then go on to refine your database--but those initial points are absolutely the most crucial ones because without that first correlation it would never occur to anyone to even try a bigger, more complicated study. We found cannabis in the Iceman's fanny pack--10,000+ years of cannabis being used for medicinal purposes is not a lack of documentation unless one chooses to ignore a rather staggering body of empirical evidence.
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Old 05-25-2019, 02:41 PM
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We found cannabis in the Iceman's fanny pack--10,000+ years of cannabis being used for medicinal purposes is not a lack of documentation unless one chooses to ignore a rather staggering body of empirical evidence.

Unless they found his prescription, too, you have no such conclusion. (And that would take you back only 5,000 years.)


(Alternate answer)


You find a hell of a lot of trepanation, too.
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Old 05-25-2019, 03:21 PM
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Hemp use for cordage and seeds probably used for food goes back over 8000 years BCE (an archeological dig in what is now Taiwan), the earliest documented written use of cannabis for medicinal use dates back to 2727 BCE in China and medical use is well documented in writings from all over the Middle East and India so no matter how you want to parse it, cannabis has been a prominent source of food, textiles, cordage as well as medicine for much longer than any drug you've ever taken.

As for a prescription--well, Otzi also was carrying weapons but no military ID and flint knapping tools but no license to manufacture tools so of course he couldn't possibly have been using those tools for anything one might assume would be their normal employment. Because of course nothing can possibly be used outside of a bureaucratic system to grant permission to do so. Why, it would simply be anarchy if anyone without a duly issued permission slip were to attempt any sort of endeavor and the world itself would crash to the ground and everyone would die. Of course.
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Old 05-25-2019, 03:45 PM
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The point is, neither you or anyone else knows if Otzi was carrying the pot for medicine, or for religious rituals, or for entertainment and any claims otherwise are pure conjecture.
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Old 05-25-2019, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
Just know that whatever info you get will be completely anecdotal. There is virtually zero credible scientific evidence on the effects of CBD (and the various forms of THC) for medical purposes out there.

That will change now that it's legal, but it will take some time to get useful studies completed.
Interesting.

I have a friend who now dispenses the stuff, and he makes claims for all sorts of health benefits, including for childhood disorders (population I work with). I take it all with a grain of salt, because I'm not personally interested in the stuff and I know he's making a sales pitch. I did assume there was at least some scientific support for what he was telling me.
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Old 05-25-2019, 05:10 PM
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My dad was a doctor. He discovered that methotrexate could be used to treat primary biliary cirrhosis. He discovered that base on two anecdotes.
And it's good that he paid attention to details and noticed that. And that he thought outside of the box. And it's good he told the patient it was a gamble. And it's great that he publicized his results.

But MTX treatment for PBC is still controversial. Current scientific consensus about its use is as follows, quoting UpToDate:
Quote:
Methotrexate has a long history in the care of patients with PBC, but its role remains uncertain. Data supporting the benefit have been derived mostly from case series and small controlled trials, not all of which have suggested a benefit. While it continues to be used in some centers, its role is generally considered to be unproven.
Which is why current standard of care is to use ursodeoxycholic acid instead.

Was your dad wrong to do what he did? No, not at all! What he did was appropriate, and in the best interest of the patient, especially since he informed the patient that it wasn't proven in any way, shape or form. And MTX therapy still isn't proven. Should it be considered for use when other modalities fail, or are not appropriate? Certainly.

We should be approaching CBD and THC the same way. Especially by telling our patients that while there's a chance it could help, the hard evidence is lacking. We know insulin brings down glucose levels; we know vaccines reduce infectious disease prevalence; that statins reduce the risk of heart attack and stroke. But we know far, far less about what pot will do.

I look forward to learning more.
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Old 05-25-2019, 05:14 PM
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It didn't help my anxiety but I did get depression when I took it. Once I realized the depression was due to CBD and stopped taking it, it cleared up.

So now I have several bottles just sitting around of that crap.
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Old 05-25-2019, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
...
Which is why current standard of care is to use ursodeoxycholic acid instead.

...
that was in the 80s.
My understanding is that at the time he did the study, the standard of care was, "there is no treatment", and the nature of the disease was unknown. I was still in high school and remember him wrestling with whether to continue that initial study to get enough data to be conclusive vs. Treating the participants.

I think it's now understood to be an auto immune disease, and there are better treatments than methotrexate. And it's a cheap, out-of-patent drug, so there's little motive to do larger studies with it

Medicine moves on. His other big thing was that he did some of the early research on tagamet, in the 60s, which was a wonder drug when it was introduced, but is also no longer the standard of care for ulcers and other serious stomach-acid issues.

And I expect that after a few decades of real research into cannabis we'll have better drugs for most everything it does.

I agree with you that we should be researching cannabis in a serious and scientific way. And I agree that there are all sorts of crazy claims out there, many of which are likely false. I thought you were discouraging the op from asking for people's experiences here, not warning him off pseudoscientific claims. I heartily agree with that warning.
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Old 05-27-2019, 11:47 AM
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This article seems relevant:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...fe-as-we-think

It basically says "we don't know much about THC and pot, but there might be some serious risks, and we (society) should go slowly and do more research".
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Old 05-27-2019, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
This article seems relevant:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...fe-as-we-think

It basically says "we don't know much about THC and pot, but there might be some serious risks, and we (society) should go slowly and do more research".
I've linked to that same article in earlier threads about THC and CBD. So great minds think alike!

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