Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-20-2020, 12:54 AM
Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 17,553

Baseball: Is it considered wrong to NOT join your teammates in clearing the benches in a brawl?


We've all seen it: Someone gets hit by a pitch, or some other scuffle happens, two players go at it, and before you know it, both team's benches are rushing out onto the field (either to defuse the conflict, or pour some more gasoline on the fire.)

Now, is it considered wrong (in team culture) for a player to just sit in the dugout and not help his buddies out by participating in a brawl?
  #2  
Old 04-20-2020, 01:01 AM
TriPolar is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 42,210
Yes, it's wrong. He can still not help his buddies by at least standing up or running onto the field even if he doesn't participate in the brawl. That's mostly what the players are doing anyway. It's about appearances, the players need to appear to be supporting their teammates, but they are also professional athletes who know brawling is stupidly risking injury, fines, and suspensions

Last edited by TriPolar; 04-20-2020 at 01:05 AM.
  #3  
Old 04-20-2020, 02:31 AM
journeyman_southpaw is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 418
You'll see a lot of guys trot out there and find someone on the other team to pair up with and just kind of grapple each other, so it's not like you're expected to really fight.

There was an incident in '86 when George Foster didn't leave the dugout when his Mets teammates were involved in a brawl, explaining later that he was Christian and considered himself a role model for kids. It was a factor in his being released from the team a couple weeks later.
  #4  
Old 04-20-2020, 04:59 AM
Melbourne is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,333
We had a football case, back many years ago, when local pro football was a bit more violent, and brawls could be pretty full on.

While all the other players were brawling, two opposing players up the other end just had a bit of a kick-to-kick while they waited for play to resume. Everybody watching just thought it was very sweet. But if one of the players had run in, the other would have had to follow. You can't stand out while your opposition is getting a hit in.
  #5  
Old 04-20-2020, 10:33 AM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 43,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman_southpaw View Post
You'll see a lot of guys trot out there and find someone on the other team to pair up with and just kind of grapple each other, so it's not like you're expected to really fight.

There was an incident in '86 when George Foster didn't leave the dugout when his Mets teammates were involved in a brawl, explaining later that he was Christian and considered himself a role model for kids. It was a factor in his being released from the team a couple weeks later.
In one of the weirdest cases of playing the race card, Foster claimed his benching and subsequent release was because he was black.

The guy who replaced him was Kevin Mitchell, who was black.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #6  
Old 04-20-2020, 11:12 AM
That Don Guy's Avatar
That Don Guy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,989
It also depends on the level of play.

For example, in the NCAA, in baseball, clearing the dugout to participate in a fight is an automatic four game suspension; in basketball, leaving the bench is an automatic ejection even if the player does not participate in the fight (if the player does, one-game suspension for the first offense in a season, and a season-long suspension for the second one); in football, leaving the bench area to participate in a fight is an ejection (and, if it happens in the second half of a game, suspension from the first half of the next game) for the first offense, and a season-long suspension for the second one.
  #7  
Old 04-20-2020, 04:00 PM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,165
72 year old coach Don Zimmer tried to get into a fight with Pedro Martinez but he was shoved to the ground.

NHL suspends anyone who leaves the bench to join a fight. I think for 5 games.
  #8  
Old 04-20-2020, 08:46 PM
Wallaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Melbourne, Far South
Posts: 940
My favourite story about in-game fighting (or 'handbags' as we call it here in Aus) concerned a rugby match where it all kicked off - except for the 2 full-backs, who stayed in their respective postions at either end of the field, 40-50 metres from the acxtion.
When it had calmed down and order restored, the ref called the 2 full-backs into the middle of the field and sent them both off. When they protested 'What are you sending us off for? We were the only two not fighting!", the ref replied 'Cowardice'.
  #9  
Old 04-20-2020, 08:56 PM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 37,574
This reminds me of this fantastic photograph of a brawl between the Cincinnati Reds and Pittsburgh Pirates that took place I think a year ago —

https://triblive.com/sports/screengr...wl-goes-viral/

This photo actually makes my mouth water, because it reminds me of ketchup and mustard on a ballpark frankfurter.
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.
  #10  
Old 04-20-2020, 09:37 PM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Just outside of Titletown
Posts: 24,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
NHL suspends anyone who leaves the bench to join a fight. I think for 5 games.
The suspense and drama of a hockey goalie fight is one of the sport's most epic battles. Because of the penalties for coming off the bench, hockey fights have to take place with the players on the ice. The slow skate forward from the net, the recognition across the rink, the squaring off and shedding of gear, and the general awkwardness of trying to fight wearing all that padding, and the rarity make for must see TV.
  #11  
Old 04-21-2020, 08:59 AM
Ike Witt's Avatar
Ike Witt is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Lost in the mists of time
Posts: 15,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
NHL suspends anyone who leaves the bench to join a fight. I think for 5 games.
No, just a game misconduct if they leave the bench to start or join a fight
Quote:
The player or goalkeeper who was the first or second player to leave the player's (or penalty bench) during an altercation or for the purpose of starting an altercation, from either or both teams shall be assessed a game misconduct penalty.
If you had been ordered to the penalty box or dressing room by the ref and come back on the ice for ANY reason, then you get the 10 games
Quote:
Any player or goalkeeper who has been ordered to the dressing room by the officials and returns to his bench or to the ice surface for any reason before the appropriate time shall be assessed a game misconduct and shall be suspended automatically without pay for the next ten (10) regular League and/or Play-off games.
I don't understand why baseball doesn't drop the hammer and end the bench clearing brawls. Hockey did it.
  #12  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:11 AM
TriPolar is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 42,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ike Witt View Post

I don't understand why baseball doesn't drop the hammer and end the bench clearing brawls. Hockey did it.
I don't understand why hockey did do it.
  #13  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:23 AM
Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 86,368
It's funny that it's considered wrong to be the one guy who stays in the bullpen when all of your teammates have run out to a brawl on the field. But it's apparently not considered to be wrong to be the one guy who runs out to the field to start a brawl when all of your teammates are still in the bullpen. Solidarity seems to be a one-way street.
  #14  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:29 AM
TriPolar is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 42,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
It's funny that it's considered wrong to be the one guy who stays in the bullpen when all of your teammates have run out to a brawl on the field. But it's apparently not considered to be wrong to be the one guy who runs out to the field to start a brawl when all of your teammates are still in the bullpen. Solidarity seems to be a one-way street.
It is funny. It is the team thing, heavily tied to the "guy code": "I'll come with you so we can both get our ass kicked". So everybody has to do it, but they don't really want to. The guys who started it do get penalized, but as you point out, they may be the only ones who did any actual brawling while the rest get slapped for really only getting a closer look.
  #15  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:40 AM
glee is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Obama country
Posts: 15,962
I don't know why baseball has this 'tradition'.
It sets a poor example to youngsters.

There are penalties for brawling in almost every sport.
  #16  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:42 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,165
For those that don't know fighting is way down in the NHL. Teams no longer want to pay for a guy who just fights, the pay is too high now for that. Fighting still happens more in lower leagues such as the ECHL , vast majority of those guys will never make the NHL.

A NHL player with a game misconduct can also be suspended. If the fighters are also given a a match penalty, that is an automatic suspension and the league determines the length.
  #17  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:51 AM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Just outside of Titletown
Posts: 24,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ike Witt View Post
I don't understand why baseball doesn't drop the hammer and end the bench clearing brawls. Hockey did it.
In baseball, the pitcher has a near absolute advantage in inflicting punishment on the other team. Yes, they will be ejected and the benches warned, but the damage is already done. Fights are more likely when there's a clear imbalance like that.

The fact is that baseball fights are about the wimpiest fights known to man, with a few rare but spectacular exceptions. They look wild but if you take a closer look most of the action is pushing and shoving, with the majority of players just holding players back or pairing up for a tango. I don't believe players get hurt very often in those bench clearing brawls so the pressure to fix it is fairly low.
  #18  
Old 04-21-2020, 10:39 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,165
Taiwan baseball league has only 5 teams but they are playing with no fans. And they had a brawl.

https://sports.yahoo.com/social-dist...8319--mlb.html
  #19  
Old 04-21-2020, 11:03 AM
Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 17,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telemark View Post
The fact is that baseball fights are about the wimpiest fights known to man, with a few rare but spectacular exceptions.
The fact that the enraged batter has to first run a long distance in order to get to the pitcher has always been the funniest aspect of it.
  #20  
Old 04-21-2020, 11:28 AM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 37,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
The fact that the enraged batter has to first run a long distance in order to get to the pitcher has always been the funniest aspect of it.
Itís the six additional inches after the sixty feet that raise the bar from merely amusing to uproarious.
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.
  #21  
Old 04-21-2020, 11:43 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,165
when did baseball start the automatic pitcher ejection for beanballs? I know it's been a rule for a while
  #22  
Old 04-21-2020, 11:50 AM
TriPolar is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 42,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
when did baseball start the automatic pitcher ejection for beanballs? I know it's been a rule for a while
The umpire has been able to use his judgement to eject a pitcher since MLB Rule 8.02(d) was written. I don't know that automatic ejection is an MLB rule.

Last edited by TriPolar; 04-21-2020 at 11:51 AM.
  #23  
Old 04-21-2020, 12:46 PM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Just outside of Titletown
Posts: 24,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
when did baseball start the automatic pitcher ejection for beanballs? I know it's been a rule for a while
Actually, it isn't a rule. Generally, after the first beanball happens the umpire will warn both benches, and the next time a pitcher throws at a batter (whether they hit them or not) it is an automatic ejection for the pitcher and the manager. Often, both benches will be warned.
  #24  
Old 04-21-2020, 01:12 PM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,165
Sounds like an unwritten rule. Sort of like don't steal a base if you are way ahead late in the game. And don't bunt to get on base if the pitcher has a no hitter going.
  #25  
Old 04-21-2020, 01:29 PM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Just outside of Titletown
Posts: 24,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
Sounds like an unwritten rule.
It's implemented by the umpires, so it's not an unwritten rule. They're going by guidelines and directives from MLB, and the rules specifically give them this authority. Unwritten rules are enforced by players.
  #26  
Old 04-21-2020, 01:59 PM
gkster is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telemark View Post

The fact is that baseball fights are about the wimpiest fights known to man, with a few rare but spectacular exceptions.
Link to an article about the Robin Ventura-Nolan Ryan fight story
https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/ch...u-havent-heard
  #27  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:58 PM
notfrommensa is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 12,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
because it reminds me of ketchup and mustard on a ballpark frankfurter.
Ketchup on a hot dog? Now there is something to fight about.
__________________
notfrommensa is clearly awesome - oslo ostragoth
  #28  
Old 04-22-2020, 05:37 AM
installLSC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 2,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telemark View Post
The suspense and drama of a hockey goalie fight is one of the sport's most epic battles. Because of the penalties for coming off the bench, hockey fights have to take place with the players on the ice. The slow skate forward from the net, the recognition across the rink, the squaring off and shedding of gear, and the general awkwardness of trying to fight wearing all that padding, and the rarity make for must see TV.
A goalie fight from earlier this year.
  #29  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:40 AM
Mark Finn is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
Sounds like an unwritten rule. Sort of like don't steal a base if you are way ahead late in the game. And don't bunt to get on base if the pitcher has a no hitter going.
25 unwritten rules of baseball...
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...nwritten-rules

And some unwritten rules of umpiring...
https://umpire-empire.com/topic/2124...s-of-umpiring/

Unwritten rules for sports officials in general...
https://www.referee.com/16-unwritten...f-officiating/
  #30  
Old 04-23-2020, 08:21 AM
txjim is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telemark View Post
In baseball, the pitcher has a near absolute advantage in inflicting punishment on the other team. Yes, they will be ejected and the benches warned, but the damage is already done. Fights are more likely when there's a clear imbalance like that.

The fact is that baseball fights are about the wimpiest fights known to man, with a few rare but spectacular exceptions. They look wild but if you take a closer look most of the action is pushing and shoving, with the majority of players just holding players back or pairing up for a tango. I don't believe players get hurt very often in those bench clearing brawls so the pressure to fix it is fairly low.
It's been decades since I read Jim Bouton's Ball Four but he described a fight where he ran to a friend of his on the other team and they scripted punches while having a friendly conversation.
  #31  
Old 04-23-2020, 01:34 PM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 37,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by notfrommensa View Post
Ketchup on a hot dog? Now there is something to fight about.
Ha freakin ha. Iím waiting for everyone to get tired of that ďjoke.Ē
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.
  #32  
Old 04-23-2020, 10:20 PM
scabpicker's Avatar
scabpicker is online now
Yo soy pinche idiota
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Funkytown (Fort Worth)
Posts: 4,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Itís the six additional inches after the sixty feet that raise the bar from merely amusing to uproarious.
Hehehe, yeah, that made me think of this event:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkster View Post
Link to an article about the Robin Ventura-Nolan Ryan fight story
https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/ch...u-havent-heard
You just got hit by a ball thrown by that arm, and you want to get closer? OK, you gotta do what you gotta do. Good luck everybody!

Yeah, I never thought charging the mound was really productive, and I'd be the guy waltzing with someone.
  #33  
Old 04-24-2020, 06:42 PM
Zakalwe's Avatar
Zakalwe is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 5,061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Finn View Post
25 unwritten rules of baseball...
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...nwritten-rules

And some unwritten rules of umpiring...
https://umpire-empire.com/topic/2124...s-of-umpiring/

Unwritten rules for sports officials in general...
https://www.referee.com/16-unwritten...f-officiating/
The 3rd article was IMHO the best of those. The first one is a mix of a few "unwritten rules" and a bunch of situational "if you do this your fans will yell at you if it goes bad" stuff. Those aren't rules.

A rule is:
1. Umps and catchers may disagree, but ultimately, they've got each other's back:
a. If the catcher takes a bad one and doesn't immediately snap back, the ump will walk a new ball out to the pitcher, chat for a sec, then check on the catcher. If he's still a little shaken but doesn't need trainer attention, clean the plate, call for extra balls, whatever.
b. If the ump takes a bad one and doesn't immediately snap back, time for a mound visit by the catcher. A little chit-chat, pretend you're clarifying signs. Keep an eye on the ump, he'll let you know when he's caught his breath, then play ball.

That's a rule. And catchers ignore it to their pitcher's peril. The umps will never ignore it (at least I've never seen it in any organized game of baseball).
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:29 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017