Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-22-2020, 02:36 AM
mandala's Avatar
mandala is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Diamond City, Zeta Prime
Posts: 657

POTUS plans to pause green card issuance: how does this help US workers?


The President announced yesterday he would temporarily halt issuance of green cards in an effort to help US workers regain their feet in this crisis. Sounds like a plan with noble intent. But I do not understand how this will help:

If you really wanted to remove competition to US workers, you might want to:
1) Stop issuing all kinds of work visas,
2) More importantly, send back millions of temporary workers already in the US,
3) Maintain these restrictions for a much longer period than the proposed 60 days.

But the president is planning on:
1) Not issuing the green card (GC) for 60 days.
2) That's about it.

Questions:
1) How can stopping people from getting that coveted piece of plastic help US workers, when non-immigrant workers on visas are going to be coming in as usual?
2) People waiting in line for the GC, who will not have their GC processed for 60 days, are still working with their EAD (employment authorization document). In most cases their spouses are working, too. How does this help cut competition?

This seems like a toothless measure, even if the intent is noble.

Do you agree that there is a need for drastic measures to protect US workers by limiting workers from abroad in the current situation?
__________________
I think, therefore I am... I think
  #2  
Old 04-22-2020, 02:54 AM
UDS is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 9,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandala View Post
. . . This seems like a toothless measure, even if the intent is noble . . .
I'd put it less charitably; this seems like a toothless measure, plus the President's claim about the intent behind it is not plausible.

The parsimonious explanation is that the real intent is not one the President can admit to. It has nothing to do with the welfare of American workers and everything to do with energing and gratifying his base, who don't like migrant labour, and will readily assume that not approving green cards translates into not admitting migrant workers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandala View Post
Do you agree that there is a need for drastic measures to protect US workers by limiting workers from abroad in the current situation?
No. There is certainly a need to protect US workers, but the danger against which they need protection is not "workers from abroad".
  #3  
Old 04-22-2020, 02:59 AM
AK84 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,021
The POTUS is not worried about visa holders right now since traveling overseas is functionally impossible right now.
  #4  
Old 04-22-2020, 04:43 AM
mandala's Avatar
mandala is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Diamond City, Zeta Prime
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
The POTUS is not worried about visa holders right now since traveling overseas is functionally impossible right now.
But there are millions of guest workers inside the US right now, "competing" with US workers. One assumes if you want to cut the competition you would want to deactivate this section of workers. I wonder if an EO could be used to do this but I highly doubt it.
__________________
I think, therefore I am... I think
  #5  
Old 04-22-2020, 05:17 AM
Monty's Avatar
Monty is offline
Straight Dope Science Advisory Board
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Beijing, China
Posts: 24,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandala View Post
The President announced yesterday he would temporarily halt issuance of green cards in an effort to help US workers regain their feet in this crisis. Sounds like a plan with noble intent. But I do not understand how this will help:

How is the intent noble? Also, there are a few categories for immigration. This is a broad brush policy that will negatively effect family members of American citizens.

Again, how is any of this noble?
  #6  
Old 04-22-2020, 05:29 AM
mandala's Avatar
mandala is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Diamond City, Zeta Prime
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
How is the intent noble? Also, there are a few categories for immigration. This is a broad brush policy that will negatively effect family members of American citizens.

Again, how is any of this noble?
The stated intent: to help US workers get back on their feet, find jobs easier, and reduce the massive unemployment going on. That is the stated intent and I do not find anything wrong with that; any president would want to accomplish that as quickly as possible.
__________________
I think, therefore I am... I think
  #7  
Old 04-22-2020, 05:53 AM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 10,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by UDS View Post
...
The parsimonious explanation is that the real intent is not one the President can admit to. It has nothing to do with the welfare of American workers and everything to do with energing and gratifying his base, who don't like migrant labour, and will readily assume that not approving green cards translates into not admitting migrant workers. ...
Yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandala View Post
The stated intent: to help US workers get back on their feet, find jobs easier, and reduce the massive unemployment going on. That is the stated intent and I do not find anything wrong with that; any president would want to accomplish that as quickly as possible.
It's almost a philosophical puzzle: can a lie be noble?
  #8  
Old 04-22-2020, 06:46 AM
RitterSport's Avatar
RitterSport is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,133
His first statement said he was going to stop migrant workers, but I guess the business community leaned on him and told him to cut that shit out.

At 10,000 feet, it seems like stopping migrant workers could help American workers in theory, but in practice, it would probably just cause disruptions in the food supply and leave fresh fruits and vegetables rotting in fields.

Stopping green card issuance doesn't do anything at all, since those people are already here and working. I guess there's some marginal number of people who would have to go back home, but that's going to be small.
  #9  
Old 04-22-2020, 07:44 AM
Manda JO is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 12,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandala View Post
But there are millions of guest workers inside the US right now, "competing" with US workers. One assumes if you want to cut the competition you would want to deactivate this section of workers. I wonder if an EO could be used to do this but I highly doubt it.
Aren't green cards specifically for permanent residents?

Deactivating is really different than pausing on issuing new certificates. I can think of several teachers I know who are permanent US residents working with a green card. Some are married to citizens. How on earth would removing their right to work and firing them possibly be a good thing for anyone? We'd have to replace a dude with a master's in physics with a substitute.
  #10  
Old 04-22-2020, 08:02 AM
engineer_comp_geek's Avatar
engineer_comp_geek is offline
Robot Mod in Beta Testing
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 26,637
Moderator Action

Moving thread from Quarantine Zone to Politics and Elections.
  #11  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:15 AM
zimaane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: washington, dc
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
How is the intent noble? Also, there are a few categories for immigration. This is a broad brush policy that will negatively effect family members of American citizens.

Again, how is any of this noble?
Noble is probably too strong a word, but at a time when millions of Americans are losing their jobs, postponing for 60 days the arrival of new job seekers seems sensible enough.

Other countries have imposed more severe restrictions.
  #12  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:18 AM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 17,491
If I understand correctly, this wouldn't apply to, say, green cards that come via a foreigner marrying a U.S. citizen, it's only for job-related green cards, right?
  #13  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:23 AM
BobLibDem is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Home 07 NCAA HockeyChamps
Posts: 22,347
It makes his base feel good that he's still dedicated to screwing over the "other". As far as fighting the virus, it's about as effective as the China ban that still allowed 60,000 people to come in from China.
  #14  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:27 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 6,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandala View Post
If you really wanted to remove competition to US workers, you might want to:
1) Stop issuing all kinds of work visas,
2) More importantly, send back millions of temporary workers already in the US,
3) Maintain these restrictions for a much longer period than the proposed 60 days.
How would suddenly removing millions of customers from already-suffering businesses help American workers?

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 04-22-2020 at 09:30 AM.
  #15  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:57 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 13,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandala View Post
But there are millions of guest workers inside the US right now, "competing" with US workers. One assumes if you want to cut the competition you would want to deactivate this section of workers. I wonder if an EO could be used to do this but I highly doubt it.
Don't assume that the guest workers are actually competing with citizens. You'd have to evaluate that on a case-by-case basis.

Right now, economic activity is at an all-time low, so it's hard to tell what kind of competition is taking place. But my guess is that it's little to none for the moment.
  #16  
Old 04-22-2020, 10:03 AM
kayT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Don't assume that the guest workers are actually competing with citizens. You'd have to evaluate that on a case-by-case basis.

Right now, economic activity is at an all-time low, so it's hard to tell what kind of competition is taking place. But my guess is that it's little to none for the moment.
Bolding mine. I believe that this is the biggest misconception in the whole "guest worker" issue. I spent a lot of years working in the car business and if there were citizens willing to do certain jobs for pretty low pay (that were being done by "guests"), they'd have been hired. There weren't. I'm pretty sure that is still the case.
  #17  
Old 04-22-2020, 10:47 AM
zimaane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: washington, dc
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
If I understand correctly, this wouldn't apply to, say, green cards that come via a foreigner marrying a U.S. citizen, it's only for job-related green cards, right?
This suggests that it applies to all new green card issuances, including family-based green cards, which account for the majority:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/immig...7c7_story.html
  #18  
Old 04-22-2020, 10:59 AM
Icarus's Avatar
Icarus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: In front of my PC, y tu?
Posts: 5,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimaane View Post
Noble is probably too strong a word, but at a time when millions of Americans are losing their jobs, postponing for 60 days the arrival of new job seekers seems sensible enough.
OK, that would be one approach. But pausing green card issuance is an entirely separate action that has zero to do with the arrival of new job seekers in practice.
__________________
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
- C. Darwin
  #19  
Old 04-22-2020, 12:11 PM
RitterSport's Avatar
RitterSport is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
OK, that would be one approach. But pausing green card issuance is an entirely separate action that has zero to do with the arrival of new job seekers in practice.
I, for one, will be shocked if we find out that this policy is not too well thought out and won't have the intended benefits to American workers.
  #20  
Old 04-22-2020, 12:20 PM
suranyi is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 8,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimaane View Post
This suggests that it applies to all new green card issuances, including family-based green cards, which account for the majority:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/immig...7c7_story.html
Hmm, I just read that it won’t apply to immediate family if American citizens.

From the NYT:

“Officials said on Tuesday that American citizens seeking to bring their children or spouses to the United States would still be allowed to do so. “

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/u...ation-ban.html
__________________
Right now, it’s Girls’ Generation. Tomorrow, it’s Girls’ Generation. Forever, it’s Girls’ Generation!
  #21  
Old 04-22-2020, 12:44 PM
Stranger On A Train is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Manor Farm
Posts: 19,867
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayT View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Don't assume that the guest workers are actually competing with citizens. You'd have to evaluate that on a case-by-case basis.

Right now, economic activity is at an all-time low, so it's hard to tell what kind of competition is taking place. But my guess is that it's little to none for the moment.
Bolding mine. I believe that this is the biggest misconception in the whole "guest worker" issue. I spent a lot of years working in the car business and if there were citizens willing to do certain jobs for pretty low pay (that were being done by "guests"), they'd have been hired. There weren't. I'm pretty sure that is still the case.
In fact, such a large amount of seasonal agricultural sector work is done by immigrant labor that it has already been an issue over the last few years to the point that farmers are often having to dispose of product or plow over fields because they lack the labor to plant and harvest or resort to hiring undocumented workers because of the dearth of legitimately permitted immigrant workers.

Where are the workers? A farm crisis in Washington
A lack of migrant labor is forcing farmers in the US to stop growing crops
Meet The Undocumented Coachella Farmworkers Feeding America
For Undocumented Workers, It's Not-so-Sweet Home Alabama

Expect this to get worse, and it is unlikely that Americans are going to be willing to work doing the arduous tasks of picking strawberries and tomatoes for minimum wage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
I, for one, will be shocked if we find out that this policy is not too well thought out and won't have the intended benefits to American workers.
That will certainly be a first for this administration whose previous labor policies and executive actions have been nothing but sterling for American industries and workers.

Stranger
  #22  
Old 04-22-2020, 03:12 PM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,068
Does not apply to a lot of tech workers since they are here on H1B visa. There is also another step before the green card for those people but I can't recall the name of that status.
  #23  
Old 04-22-2020, 07:25 PM
UDS is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 9,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimaane View Post
Noble is probably too strong a word, but at a time when millions of Americans are losing their jobs, postponing for 60 days the arrival of new job seekers seems sensible enough.
But it does little or nothing to postpone the arrival of new job seekers. The vast bulk of green cards are issued to people already lawfully in the United States.
  #24  
Old 04-22-2020, 08:01 PM
suranyi is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 8,030
The order’s been released. It exempts people in a few categories. Most importantly, immediate family members of US citizens, and healthcare workers intending to help with COVID.
__________________
Right now, it’s Girls’ Generation. Tomorrow, it’s Girls’ Generation. Forever, it’s Girls’ Generation!
  #25  
Old 04-24-2020, 06:03 AM
mandala's Avatar
mandala is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Diamond City, Zeta Prime
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by UDS View Post
But it does little or nothing to postpone the arrival of new job seekers. The vast bulk of green cards are issued to people already lawfully in the United States.
Well, he had to be seen doing something, and so he does something, never mind it has no impact whatsoever on the problem at hand.
__________________
I think, therefore I am... I think
  #26  
Old 04-24-2020, 06:31 AM
RitterSport's Avatar
RitterSport is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandala View Post
Well, he had to be seen doing something, and so he does something, never mind it has no impact whatsoever on the problem at hand.
That's a pretty charitable description. I'd say he did something that will (a) make a good anti-immigrant soundbite for his base that (b) does nothing at all to help American workers while (c) still having a negative impact on people seeking to become permanent residents here.

People who have established their lives here (why else become a permanent resident?) are having their plans thrown into disarray for no reason other than to establish further Trump's anti-immigrant cred with his base.
  #27  
Old 04-26-2020, 09:10 AM
mandala's Avatar
mandala is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Diamond City, Zeta Prime
Posts: 657
Trump’s Temporary Halt to Immigration Is Part of Broader Plan, Stephen Miller Says

So they are working on something to restrict work visas such as H1 and H2, which would cut closer to their goal of stopping foreign labor. The pandemic is just an excuse - but a reasonably good one, since at this point 26 million Americans are out of a job, and it is easier to sell this to a distressed public.

Most H1 workers are IT professionals, and IT jobs in America have not seen a real downturn, unlike other areas such as hotels and airlines. So I am not sure how stopping 85,000 H1 workers (who would enter in October) benefit the job market for US workers. I suppose it might have a small beneficial impact on US IT workers, but is not going to make a dent in those unemployment numbers.
__________________
I think, therefore I am... I think
  #28  
Old 04-26-2020, 09:28 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 13,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandala View Post
Trump’s Temporary Halt to Immigration Is Part of Broader Plan, Stephen Miller Says

So they are working on something to restrict work visas such as H1 and H2, which would cut closer to their goal of stopping foreign labor. The pandemic is just an excuse - but a reasonably good one, since at this point 26 million Americans are out of a job, and it is easier to sell this to a distressed public.

Most H1 workers are IT professionals, and IT jobs in America have not seen a real downturn, unlike other areas such as hotels and airlines. So I am not sure how stopping 85,000 H1 workers (who would enter in October) benefit the job market for US workers. I suppose it might have a small beneficial impact on US IT workers, but is not going to make a dent in those unemployment numbers.
As bad as cutting visas for less educated laborers would be, it would be disastrous to cut visas for skilled immigrants. These are doctors who fill shortages in rural areas. These are people who allow US companies to compete in fields like IT and other STEM fields.

This is just another cynical ploy to create "whiteness" and to use "whiteness." And it'll get worse and more outrageous until the voters stand up and get in their way.
  #29  
Old 04-26-2020, 11:23 AM
Stranger On A Train is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Manor Farm
Posts: 19,867
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
As bad as cutting visas for less educated laborers would be,...
Given how dependent the agricultural and meat processing industries are on immigrant labor, it would be even more devastating. Loosing skilled IT workers is bad, and losing physicians and engineers is even worse, but something that cuts the bottom out of the food supply chain is a recipe for humanitarian disaster and societal collapse. It isn't as if this is going to fundamentally change the dynamics of the pandemic given that many states are already failing to take effective measured to prevent contagion; this is white nationalism in a string bikini, and if taken to its logical conclusion will devastate fundamental elements of the US economy.

Stranger
  #30  
Old 04-26-2020, 04:30 PM
RioRico is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: beyond cell service
Posts: 3,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
Given how dependent the agricultural and meat processing industries are on immigrant labor, it would be even more devastating. Loosing skilled IT workers is bad, and losing physicians and engineers is even worse, but something that cuts the bottom out of the food supply chain is a recipe for humanitarian disaster and societal collapse. It isn't as if this is going to fundamentally change the dynamics of the pandemic given that many states are already failing to take effective measured to prevent contagion; this is white nationalism in a string bikini, and if taken to its logical conclusion will devastate fundamental elements of the US economy.
My bolding. We're not out of line to assume that destruction of the US is Team Tramp's goal. Are Putin's puppy and his puppets performing well there? A slightly less malicious CT hypothesis sees them only destroying "conservative" credibility with studied incompetence as well as encouraging casualties among their followers. Go on, freedom lovers - gather amid contagion; drink poison; choke-off food supplies; and be sure to state at the sun till your corneas melt. Who leads the blind then?
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:59 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017