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  #51  
Old 05-21-2020, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
That’s the same sound for me.
Maybe, like the "O" in "Oprah" rather than "Oh!" Or even sharper, like "Oklahoma."
  #52  
Old 05-21-2020, 02:56 PM
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This song was written to sound like English (but by Italians, not Spanish speakers).

https://youtu.be/-VsmF9m_Nt8
  #53  
Old 05-21-2020, 07:17 PM
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Maybe, like the "O" in "Oprah" rather than "Oh!" Or even sharper, like "Oklahoma."
Speaking just for myself, but I'm just not seeing (hearing) the alleged difference in these different O sounds.
  #54  
Old 05-21-2020, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
I suspect that there are still enclaves in the Upper Midwest where those are "tor-TILL-a" and "JAL-a-PEE-no," respectively.
That's a fair bit closer than, say, "Ja-LA-peh-no".

English speakers can have weird hyper-corrections as well- I've had to break out a dictionary to convince an English speaker with otherwise much better Spanish than mine that Jabanero is indeed spelled with a regular n and pronounced that way, rather than their theory that I was mispronouncing an ñ in ignorance.
  #55  
Old 05-22-2020, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Some Call Me... Tim View Post
That's a fair bit closer than, say, "Ja-LA-peh-no".

English speakers can have weird hyper-corrections as well- I've had to break out a dictionary to convince an English speaker with otherwise much better Spanish than mine that Jabanero is indeed spelled with a regular n and pronounced that way, rather than their theory that I was mispronouncing an ñ in ignorance.
Speaking of hyper-corrections: what language is this Jabanero suposed to be? (Never mind the meaning...)
*Nava*, good luck trying to explain to an English speaker that there are only five nice pure vowels plus some umlauts and that they only use them in diphtongs (that is an exageration, of course, but more correct than what they assume). I gave up long ago (lo dejé por imposible ). But sometimes, some of them pronounce the word opera with a proper O, a proper E and a proper A. And then they look at you and don't get what you meant to say, like: "yeah, of course, so what?".
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  #56  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:09 AM
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Speaking of hyper-corrections: what language is this Jabanero suposed to be? (Never mind the meaning...)
*Nava*, good luck trying to explain to an English speaker that there are only five nice pure vowels plus some umlauts and that they only use them in diphtongs (that is an exageration, of course, but more correct than what they assume). I gave up long ago (lo dejé por imposible ). But sometimes, some of them pronounce the word opera with a proper O, a proper E and a proper A. And then they look at you and don't get what you meant to say, like: "yeah, of course, so what?".
Oops, my own spelling hyper-correction caused me to fail to spell Habanero correctly.
  #57  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Some Call Me... Tim View Post
English speakers can have weird hyper-corrections as well- I've had to break out a dictionary to convince an English speaker with otherwise much better Spanish than mine that Jabanero is indeed spelled with a regular n and pronounced that way, rather than their theory that I was mispronouncing an ñ in ignorance.
(Of course in Spanish, the "H" in "Habanero" is silent.)

Oh, Dan Rather was a particularly grating example back in the 80s with him repeatedly referring to the city of Cartagena as "Cartageña" and nobody seemed to dare correct him.
  #58  
Old 05-22-2020, 09:10 AM
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Regarding oh and slow, cocoa might be a word Anglophones pronounce without turning the final vowel into a dipthong. I hear and say the two syllables the same: "co-co", without getting that hint of the "w" sound on the end.
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Old 05-22-2020, 10:14 AM
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I've had the same problem with empanada (thinking the 'n' was an 'ñ'.) I think it's more just an error than a hypercorrection.
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Old 05-23-2020, 11:17 PM
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Getting back to the OP. I once had a Cuban friend play a Spanish novelty record for me in which the singer mocked Americans by putting a "ski" after many words. e.g.: Tomaski coca-colski en la playaski. (drinking coke at the beach) It might not have been a common practice but it was pretty funny.
  #61  
Old 05-24-2020, 03:32 AM
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I’m thinking of the opposite of what is common in English to make words sound more Spanish. Usually, this is done by adding an “o” to the end of a word or prefixing the word with an “el” or “la”. Among Spanish speakers, is there any equivalent to try to make Spanish words sound English?
Not Spanish, but when I lived in Brazil, "mocking" English sounded very much like English speakers trying to mock Chinese. Maybe gibberish is universal.
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Old 05-24-2020, 03:51 AM
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Not Spanish, but when I lived in Brazil, "mocking" English sounded very much like English speakers trying to mock Chinese. Maybe gibberish is universal.
Yes but how often do people stand around speaking gibberish??
  #63  
Old 05-24-2020, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by I Love Me, Vol. I View Post
Yeah, that's the Upper Midwest. But what's our excuse in San Francisco for pronouncing "Cabrillo" street "cah-BRILL-oh"?
I was speaking with a customer once whose name was Joaquin Bonilla. We have a fairly large Spanish speaking population in these parts, so I knew to read it "hwa-KEEN bo-NEE-ya". Guy stopped me right in mid sentence and corrected me indignantly, "It's 'bo NILL-a'. OK, fine, whatever, it's your name and I'll pronounce it 'Throatwarbler' if you want, but you're the one being unusual so don't go getting pissy from the get-go.
  #64  
Old 05-24-2020, 01:45 PM
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The name Vueling gets badly on my nerves. I don't know if they mean it in earnest, if they are making fun of me or calling me and their customers in general an idiot.
Making fun of the general trend.

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Originally Posted by Do Not Taunt View Post
I've had the same problem with empanada (thinking the 'n' was an 'ñ'.) I think it's more just an error than a hypercorrection.
It's a perfect example of a hypercorrection: believing that the correct version cannot be correct.

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Originally Posted by Retzbu Tox View Post
Regarding oh and slow, cocoa might be a word Anglophones pronounce without turning the final vowel into a dipthong. I hear and say the two syllables the same: "co-co", without getting that hint of the "w" sound on the end.
Problem being: one, the "final vowel" is written with two vowels but in people who pronounce it as one actual vowel the "a" is there for decoration; two, some people pronounce it almost cow-cow; three, and some pronounce it cow-co.

Sometimes I think we should just nuke y'all and let Og sort his own...
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Last edited by Nava; 05-24-2020 at 01:50 PM.
  #65  
Old 05-24-2020, 01:52 PM
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Oh, and that cow-cow or cow-co rhymes with slow, not with cow.

Pardel-Lux, some of them actually get it. Michael Robinson managed to avoid that particular minefield the inmense majority of the time, for example. Dude always had an English accent but "sticks extra vowels everywhere and can't syllabize to save his life" wasn't part of it.
  #66  
Old 05-24-2020, 03:33 PM
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[...]
Pardel-Lux, some of them actually get it. Michael Robinson managed to avoid that particular minefield the inmense majority of the time, for example. Dude always had an English accent but "sticks extra vowels everywhere and can't syllabize to save his life" wasn't part of it.
Yes, you are right: Michael Robinson was an exceptionally good one, and a great loss. He knew what he wanted to say and how to say it.
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  #67  
Old 05-25-2020, 06:59 AM
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One of the more delightful discoveries I made, as an English major studying abroad in Spain, was that the name "Shakespeare" has six syllables: e-SHAHK-e-spay-AR-ay.
I wonder whether that's in revenge for the people of England's pronouncing the name of Spanish literature's probably most-loved character, as "Don KWICK-soat"?
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Old 05-25-2020, 12:05 PM
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It's a perfect example of a hypercorrection: believing that the correct version cannot be correct.
No, it isn't. Firstly, I didn't believe that empanada could not be correct; I merely believed - until I was corrected - that it was empañada. If that's a hypercorrection, then the word loses all meaning. It's just an error.

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Problem being: one, the "final vowel" is written with two vowels but in people who pronounce it as one actual vowel the "a" is there for decoration; two, some people pronounce it almost cow-cow; three, and some pronounce it cow-co.
English is funny - we use silent vowels quite frequently. It would surprise no one (no one fluent in English, that is) that the 'a' ending 'cocoa' is silent. Silent letters aren't generally for decoration only, since they often affect the pronunciation of other vowels in the word. But in this case, it really is for decoration only, since we'd pronounce 'coco' the same way, as in the name, 'Coco Chanel.' Cow-cow or cow-co, on the other hand, would be pronounced quite differently, and I've never heard anyone say it anywhere near that way. Are you mixing it up with cacao (ca-cow)?

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Sometimes I think we should just nuke y'all and let Og sort his own...
No Spanish-speaking countries have nukes.
  #69  
Old 05-25-2020, 04:45 PM
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. But in this case, it really is for decoration only, since we'd pronounce 'coco' the same way, as in the name, 'Coco Chanel.' Cow-cow or cow-co, on the other hand, would be pronounced quite differently, and I've never heard anyone say it anywhere near that way.
Yet I hear many English speakers say "cocoa", "coconut" or "Coco Chanel" who in at least one of the syllables, usually the first one, still do the fadeout effect on the "o". (And I think that's a better way of thinking of it: In English the sound of an "o" that ends the syllable tends to have a bit of a tailing-off "fadeout" rather than just stopping. A Spanish speaker parodying an English accent will exaggerate that into something rhyming with "slowww...")

BTW: Spanish pronunciation of "coco".
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No Spanish-speaking countries have nukes.
That we know of... OTOH we have settled on one pronunciation of "nuclear", that oughta help save time.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 05-25-2020 at 04:46 PM.
  #70  
Old 05-25-2020, 06:27 PM
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One of the more delightful discoveries I made, as an English major studying abroad in Spain, was that the name "Shakespeare" has six syllables: e-SHAHK-e-spay-AR-ay.
Do all Spanish words that might otherwise begin with S necessarily have that "e" stuck in front of it by default? Seems to appear in a lot of Espanish words.

Last edited by Senegoid; 05-25-2020 at 06:28 PM.
  #71  
Old 05-25-2020, 07:20 PM
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Do all Spanish words that might otherwise begin with S necessarily have that "e" stuck in front of it by default? Seems to appear in a lot of Espanish words.
No (e.g. salsa, segundo, etc.). Spanish speakers don't add an "e" when an initial "s" is followed by a vowel, but only when it's followed by a consonant. Very few Spanish words start with an "s" followed by a consonant.
  #72  
Old 05-26-2020, 12:30 AM
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No Spanish-speaking countries have nukes.
The USA.
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  #73  
Old 05-26-2020, 10:57 AM
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Yet I hear many English speakers say "cocoa", "coconut" or "Coco Chanel" who in at least one of the syllables, usually the first one, still do the fadeout effect on the "o". (And I think that's a better way of thinking of it: In English the sound of an "o" that ends the syllable tends to have a bit of a tailing-off "fadeout" rather than just stopping. A Spanish speaker parodying an English accent will exaggerate that into something rhyming with "slowww...")
Yeah, I'll stipulate that we may do something with long-o sounds at the end of words that I can't really distinguish, even if I do it myself. Phonology isn't my strong suit. In that post I was really responding to the claim that the 'co' sound is anything like the sound in 'cow.' It's possibly that by 'cow' Nava meant a work that starts with a hard-c and rhymes with 'slow', like one of the syllables of cocoa, but with the trailing off you describe.

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The USA.
Zing?
  #74  
Old 05-26-2020, 04:17 PM
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Sometimes I think we should just nuke y'all and let Og sort his own...
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Originally Posted by Do Not Taunt View Post
No Spanish-speaking countries have nukes.
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
The USA.
We should nuke ourselves?
  #75  
Old 05-26-2020, 06:49 PM
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This song was written to sound like English (but by Italians, not Spanish speakers).

https://youtu.be/-VsmF9m_Nt8
Another good example from Italy is this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLlYI0m8cEA

Almost everything said about Spain in this thread applies to Italy as well. That's what happens when a totalitarian regime keeps people from using foreign languages for decades.

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In fake Italian you wave your hands around a lot more.

Actually, in fake Italian you add "a," not "o." And in fake Spanish, you put "el" in front of everything.
That's-a not-a true... https://www.ftmentertainment.it/wp-c...88be3fc551.jpg
  #76  
Old 05-26-2020, 07:40 PM
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We should nuke ourselves?
You put names on nuclear missiles that then you cannot pronounce (have you heard Dave Mustaine try to pronounce "Polaris"?, I think he broke at least 3 vocal cords), and given your current standards of governance I wouldn't be surprised if you did :P

Last edited by Frodo; 05-26-2020 at 07:40 PM.
  #77  
Old 05-26-2020, 08:54 PM
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We have accidentally dropped a couple of live nukes on ourselves over the years, fortunately the Big Boom part did not go off.
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Originally Posted by Do Not Taunt View Post
It's possibly that by 'cow' Nava meant a work that starts with a hard-c and rhymes with 'slow', like one of the syllables of cocoa, but with the trailing off you describe.
She clarified as much in post #65.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava
The USA.
Zing?
Hey, one of the Academias de la Lengua Española is that of the United States (interestingly under the "Norteamericana" designation as opposed to "Estadounidense")

Last edited by JRDelirious; 05-26-2020 at 08:56 PM.
  #78  
Old 05-26-2020, 10:46 PM
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Almost everything said about Spain in this thread applies to Italy as well. That's what happens when a totalitarian regime keeps people from using foreign languages for decades.
The second part, not true.

Many people in Spain could speak foreign languages during Franco's regime. Those languages simply weren't English; mainly they were German and/or French (plus of course Latin, since you didn't graduate anything without it), the same languages which had been useful internationally for centuries. Despite what some people believe there are other languages out there and some of those languages were dominant in the diplomatic, trade and scientific worlds for centuries before the privileged geography of the US brought English to prominence.


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Originally Posted by Fretful Porpentine View Post
One of the more delightful discoveries I made, as an English major studying abroad in Spain, was that the name "Shakespeare" has six syllables: e-SHAHK-e-spay-AR-ay.
Anyone who put an e- there was either pulling your leg or saying "eh... sha-kes-pe-A-re". And if there's a secondary stress it's in KES, not sha. Oh, you've also managed to place pretty much every consonant in the wrong syllable.
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Last edited by Nava; 05-26-2020 at 10:51 PM.
  #79  
Old 05-27-2020, 12:09 AM
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Anyone who put an e- there was either pulling your leg or saying "eh... sha-kes-pe-A-re".
This guy is certainly sticking a bit of an "e" before the "s" both times he says it (although it's not very distinct), so at least some Spanish speakers do. However, he's also not trying to pronounce it in a Spanish manner, but just using the English pronunciation with an "e" tacked in front. I agree the proper Spanish version shouldn't tack on an "e," since "h" isn't really treated as a consonant in Spanish, so that the "s" should be treated as if it is followed directly by the vowel.

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  #80  
Old 05-27-2020, 05:32 AM
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Sorry, Colibri, Nava is more right than you on this one. And on the "other languages spoken that are not English" Nava is not only right, but it was high time somebody said it, so thank you for it. The triumph of English as a diplomatic language was not cemented until the East European countries joined the EU, until the end of last century the language of diplomacy was French. It's preeminence had been eroding for ages, but it did not collapse until around the mid-90's. I was working in the EU then, I saw it, and it was quite impressive and unexpected for many.
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  #81  
Old 05-27-2020, 11:00 AM
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She clarified as much in post #65.
Well, shit, I completely missed that.
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Old 05-27-2020, 11:05 AM
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Sorry, Colibri, Nava is more right than you on this one.
It's hard to see how she could be "more right," since I agreed with her on the right way to pronounce Shakespeare in Spanish. I was just pointing out that at least some Spanish speakers may stick an initial "e" on it, even if that is not correct. He was attempting to pronounce the name as it is in English, but made a mistake based on Spanish. You seem to be contending that Spanish speakers never make mistakes when pronouncing foreign names. Based on personal experience, they most certainly do.

Last edited by Colibri; 05-27-2020 at 11:39 AM.
  #83  
Old 05-27-2020, 06:24 PM
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I dispute that the speaker put an e before Schakespeare, the e you hear is not really there. At least I do not hear it clearly, and I have a trained ear for that. It's in my job. Using this false e is a very common error indeed, and we Spaniards, me included, commit a lot of mistakes with foreign languages and that one in particular, but this man you linked did not.
BTW: The name of this S followed by a consonant is "s líquida". As we Spaniards have dificulty pronouncing it, we use a prótesis and introduce a vowel, usually an e.
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Last edited by Pardel-Lux; 05-27-2020 at 06:25 PM.
  #84  
Old 05-27-2020, 06:54 PM
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I dispute that the speaker put an e before Schakespeare, the e you hear is not really there.
Sorry, you're wrong. I listened to it multiple times to make sure it's there, and it most definitely is. As I said, it's not very distinct, but there's clearly an "eh" sound before the "s" that an English speaker would not introduce.
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Old 05-27-2020, 07:06 PM
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Eh, FWIW I first learned that name as "chakespier", no leading e, until I went to actual school. Due to the American influence Puerto Ricans long ago adapted to saying "sh" like the Spanish "ch". They do however keep the protesic e voicing when it's an initial s before a "hard" consonant (e.g. ordering a Stoli).

Last edited by JRDelirious; 05-27-2020 at 07:08 PM.
  #86  
Old 05-28-2020, 04:16 AM
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Sorry, you're wrong. I listened to it multiple times to make sure it's there, and it most definitely is. As I said, it's not very distinct, but there's clearly an "eh" sound before the "s" that an English speaker would not introduce.
Well, I disagree and side with Nava when she says replying to Fretful Porpentine in her post #78 that "Anyone who put an e- there was either pulling your leg or saying "eh... sha-kes-pe-A-re"." There is the slightest of hints of an "eh..." before Shakespeare on your video, but if you had to listen to it "multiple times to make sure" and you admit yourself that it is "not very distinct" I don't think we have to argue to death about it. You claim it is a fonetic "eh", I hear a hint of a nervous "eh" that is not related to an accent. Shall we leave it at that?
I think we agree on the important points anyway: the protesic e is real, Spanish speakers use it a lot, and mostly very clearly. Shakespeare is not one of the most egregious cases where Spanish speakers tend to use it.
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Last edited by Pardel-Lux; 05-28-2020 at 04:18 AM. Reason: typo... again.
  #87  
Old 05-28-2020, 07:24 AM
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I just wanted to chime in that I agree with those who say it’s IMPOSSIBLE to teach a native English speaker to say the “long o” sans diphthong simply by giving an English example, because NO SUCH EXAMPLE EXISTS. It’s an inherent part of the sound in English, period.

(At least with, say, a glottal stop, you can point to a non-phonemic but very real example in English, like “uh oh!”).

So, you must use some other method to teach this sound, like sticking a finger cross-ways between your lips and trying hard to avoid squeezing your lips onto your finger to complete the sound.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 05-28-2020 at 07:24 AM.
  #88  
Old 05-28-2020, 08:03 AM
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I just wanted to chime in that I agree with those who say it’s IMPOSSIBLE to teach a native English speaker to say the “long o” sans diphthong simply by giving an English example, because NO SUCH EXAMPLE EXISTS. It’s an inherent part of the sound in English, period.

(At least with, say, a glottal stop, you can point to a non-phonemic but very real example in English, like “uh oh!”).

So, you must use some other method to teach this sound, like sticking a finger cross-ways between your lips and trying hard to avoid squeezing your lips onto your finger to complete the sound.
Or you could listen to a recording of the sound and practice imitating it; no need for a (nonexistent) English example. There are also many diagrams of how to hold the mouth and tongue. I agree that the best way is to work with an articulation coach who knows all the speech exercises and tricks, including sticking a finger or cork in the mouth.

Spanish is not really so bad vowel-wise: to a first approximation there are not too many of them, they are not too crazy (are cardinal vowels) or have fine distinctions where two sounds seem to you the same for some reason even after listening to them dozens of times.

Many have experienced the humiliation of having our pronunciation corrected because we were not saying a foreign word right. But eventually also the satisfaction of being mistaken for a native speaker.
  #89  
Old 05-28-2020, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
I just wanted to chime in that I agree with those who say it’s IMPOSSIBLE to teach a native English speaker to say the “long o” sans diphthong simply by giving an English example, because NO SUCH EXAMPLE EXISTS. It’s an inherent part of the sound in English, period.

(At least with, say, a glottal stop, you can point to a non-phonemic but very real example in English, like “uh oh!”).
[...]
I don't know: you just used stop and period. Point. Non. Perhaps even diphtong and glottal. I don't know what to think anymore
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Pardel-Lux View Post
I don't know: you just used stop and period. Point. Non. Perhaps even diphtong and glottal. I don't know what to think anymore
Most of the words you mentioned contain the sound many English speakers call a “short o.” The English sound that is diphthongized is the “long o.”

I think you have a point with — well, “point.” That is indeed a “long o” without the subsequent rounding of the lips. I think it’s precisely because it IS also a diphthong, just a different one (“long o” plus “ee”).
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