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  #3651  
Old 05-21-2020, 10:16 PM
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I love the song, but ...groos? That's a pretty serious flaw.
A groos error, you'd say?
  #3652  
Old 05-22-2020, 12:38 AM
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That scene is even better once you realize that the hapless boy and his poor date are named after George and Mary Bailey from It's A Wonderful Life.
And the pharmacist is Mr. Gower (at 1:38). The girl isn't Mary, but another character from IAWL: Violet. The boy clearly calls her by that name near the beginning.
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Old 05-22-2020, 04:54 AM
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In The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul, Dirk Gently is obviously key in solving the case and bringing about the ultimate outcome, even though he keeps taking damage, is by the end of the book reduced to recuperating in a hospital bed, and never talks to Thor or Odin. (Even Kate's actions can be indirectly traced back to Dirk's impetus.) This is a consequence of the fundamental interconnectedness of all things.
  #3654  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:46 AM
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I too have always heard it as "Bruce."
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I'd always heard "groos", but I figured I was mishearing "Bruce".
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If I had heard "groos," I would have thought I was mishearing "goose."
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They now sing Bruce.
I always thought it was "roose," as in Charlotte Russe, IOW French for Russian. Although why he would be saying that, I had no idea.
  #3655  
Old 05-22-2020, 10:39 AM
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I always thought it was "roose," as in Charlotte Russe, IOW French for Russian. Although why he would be saying that, I had no idea.
I always thought it was "Oops!"
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Old 05-22-2020, 11:46 AM
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I'd always heard "groos", but I figured I was mishearing "Bruce".
If I had heard "groos," I would have thought I was mishearing "goose."
But "goose" wouldn't make any sense. "Bruce" would have... kinda. Jeff Lynne was also rolling his Rs pretty heavily. For once in my life I heard something correctly. I just didn't believe it. Figures.
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Old 05-22-2020, 12:17 PM
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Here's Wiki on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27...Misheard_lyric
  #3658  
Old 05-22-2020, 03:38 PM
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But "goose" wouldn't make any sense. "Bruce" would have... kinda. Jeff Lynne was also rolling his Rs pretty heavily. For once in my life I heard something correctly. I just didn't believe it. Figures.
"Goose" would make a heckuva lot more sense than "groos."
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  #3659  
Old 05-24-2020, 01:36 PM
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SO I have no idea how many times I have seen The Godfather. I was watching it today while I was on my elliptical. Tom Hagan goes to Hollywood to intervene with Jack Woltz for Johny Fontaine. Tom is walking through Woltz's castle and gardens and Woltz shows him his 600,000 dollar racehorse. It is all class and opulence. In the scene where Jack Woltz and Tom Hagan are eating dinner in the flawlessly decorated dining room and being waited on, the camera angle is from behond Tom Hagan and on Jack Woltz. At Woltz's place setting, there is a bottle of ketchup....
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  #3660  
Old 05-24-2020, 02:15 PM
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SO I have no idea how many times I have seen The Godfather. I was watching it today while I was on my elliptical. Tom Hagan goes to Hollywood to intervene with Jack Woltz for Johny Fontaine. Tom is walking through Woltz's castle and gardens and Woltz shows him his 600,000 dollar racehorse. It is all class and opulence. In the scene where Jack Woltz and Tom Hagan are eating dinner in the flawlessly decorated dining room and being waited on, the camera angle is from behond Tom Hagan and on Jack Woltz. At Woltz's place setting, there is a bottle of ketchup....
Hi, I have no idea what you noticed that was important?
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:44 PM
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Mahloth I found the ketchup oddly out of place in the ultra expensive and supposedly classy lifestyle of Jack Woltz the extremely wealthy studio owner and it struck me as a throwback to a way more pedestrian palate of a working class guy. That ketchup bottle very subtlety rounded out the character of Jack Woltz as a man from a humble background who had clawed his way to the top. As later shown, his wealth did not make him immune to the underlying threat of the horse head in his bed but his reaction was that of a man who understood the violence implied by the threat.

Maybe I am looking too deeply into this, but the ketchup bottle on the fancy table set with expensive crystal and china, once I noticed it, was a glaring marker for me.
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  #3662  
Old 05-24-2020, 03:06 PM
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Maybe I am looking too deeply into this, but the ketchup bottle on the fancy table set with expensive crystal and china, once I noticed it, was a glaring marker for me.
And buy really expensive ketchups with it.
  #3663  
Old 05-24-2020, 03:30 PM
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And buy really expensive ketchups with it.
All the fanciest dijon ketchups.
  #3664  
Old 05-24-2020, 06:20 PM
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it was a bottle of Heinz
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  #3665  
Old 05-26-2020, 07:42 AM
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it was a bottle of Heinz
Ketchup is one of the few items where, until recently, there wasn't a high-class equivalent. Everyone used ketchup, and there weren't posh and common brands. It's why Andy Warhol painted ketchup, though not with it - that came later in art.

Even now only foodies use brands that aren't very well-known, and most people buy ketchup or a knock-off of it.
  #3666  
Old 05-26-2020, 08:40 AM
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it was a bottle of Heinz
Anyone my age who grew up in Pittsburgh has probably toured the Heinz plant and had or has a pickle pin.
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Old 05-26-2020, 09:45 AM
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Mahloth I found the ketchup oddly out of place in the ultra expensive and supposedly classy lifestyle of Jack Woltz the extremely wealthy studio owner and it struck me as a throwback to a way more pedestrian palate of a working class guy. That ketchup bottle very subtlety rounded out the character of Jack Woltz as a man from a humble background who had clawed his way to the top. As later shown, his wealth did not make him immune to the underlying threat of the horse head in his bed but his reaction was that of a man who understood the violence implied by the threat.

Maybe I am looking too deeply into this, but the ketchup bottle on the fancy table set with expensive crystal and china, once I noticed it, was a glaring marker for me.
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Ketchup is one of the few items where, until recently, there wasn't a high-class equivalent. Everyone used ketchup, and there weren't posh and common brands. It's why Andy Warhol painted ketchup, though not with it - that came later in art.

Even now only foodies use brands that aren't very well-known, and most people buy ketchup or a knock-off of it.
It could also be that Coppola used the Heinz bottle on the table to signify that Woltz is nouveau riche, because as Miss Manners would have explained, having any product (other than wine) on the dinner table in its original packaging is just not done. But having the ketchup in a silver salver, as Miss Manners might have recommended, wouldn't have highlighted Woltz's working-class tastes. So even though there were no posh ketchups available at the time, the Heinz bottle serves the filmmaker's intent of commenting on the character, as longhair75 suggests.
  #3668  
Old 05-26-2020, 10:07 AM
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It could also be that Coppola used the Heinz bottle on the table to signify that Woltz is nouveau riche, because as Miss Manners would have explained, having any product (other than wine) on the dinner table in its original packaging is just not done. But having the ketchup in a silver salver, as Miss Manners might have recommended, wouldn't have highlighted Woltz's working-class tastes. So even though there were no posh ketchups available at the time, the Heinz bottle serves the filmmaker's intent of commenting on the character, as longhair75 suggests.
There's another possibility - if I remember correctly, it was a steak dinner. And ketchup on your steak is a class marker in a way that ketchup on your burger isn't , regardless of how the ketchup appears on the table.
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Old 05-26-2020, 10:35 AM
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I remember an episode in The Wild Wild West where James and Artie have determined that the bad guy they're after will be at a monthly dinner in a fancy dining club in San Francisco. Artie hires out as a French waiter to get close to him but, alas, the guy couldn't make it and sent his boorish nephew instead.

The first thing after dinner is served he asks, "Where's da ketchup?" Everyone -- the other guests and staff -- looks horrified but Artie brings a salver of ketchup. All during the dinner, the nephew's manners do not improve; he has less class than the nouveau riche. After dinner, Artie has to have an excuse to follow the guy to his uncle so he's leaning against a credenza whittling on a small bit of wood. The maitre'd asks, "What are you doing?"

In his outrageous French accent Artie answers, "I am carving a toothpick."

"Why?"

"Every 'ash'ouse has toothpicks."

The nephew strolls up. "Da chow was pretty good but I din't like the ketchup -- gotta toothpick?"

Artie proffers the one he's just made on a serviette, the maitre'd and he watch as the nephew walks away, then Artie throws down the napkin. "I weel not work in a 'ash'ouse!" and leaves to follow the guy.
  #3670  
Old 05-26-2020, 11:42 AM
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There's another possibility - if I remember correctly, it was a steak dinner. And ketchup on your steak is a class marker in a way that ketchup on your burger isn't , regardless of how the ketchup appears on the table.
It's also possible its presence was the result of a low-level set dresser putting "dinner-type stuff" on the table without giving it much thought, and that the director wasn't even aware of it...
  #3671  
Old 05-26-2020, 12:21 PM
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It's also possible its presence was the result of a low-level set dresser putting "dinner-type stuff" on the table without giving it much thought, and that the director wasn't even aware of it...
Possible, but unlikely. One thing I have learned from listening to professional filmmakers (including top-level crew members like cinematographers, production designers, costume designers, composers, etc.) is that almost nothing appears in any frame of a film by accident. They have selected every camera angle, every prop, every color, every note, everything for how it helps tell the story, what it says about the characters, the situation, and so on. If you asked Dean Tavoularis, the production designer on The Godfather, why he chose, say, the salt and pepper shakers on the table in that scene, he could probably tell you that they were historically accurate to the time and place, and a few other details that you and I would never have guessed about them.

The vast majority of these tiny decisions are never consciously noticed by the vast majority of viewers, but collectively they have an impact on the final production. (Or maybe they merely justify the big salaries these people are paid, and help film students write Ph.D dissertations. )

Oh, and another possibility that we haven't brought up: maybe Heinz paid for the product placement.
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:36 PM
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I was a big fan of Star Trek: The Next Generation when I was in middle school. A bit later, in high school, I discovered Isaac Asimov's robot stories and became a fan of those. And yet it took me an embarrassingly long time before I made the connection that the title of the TNG episode "I, Borg" was a tribute to Asimov's "I, Robot". In hindsight it was incredibly obvious.
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:18 PM
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Possible, but unlikely. One thing I have learned from listening to professional filmmakers (including top-level crew members like cinematographers, production designers, costume designers, composers, etc.) is that almost nothing appears in any frame of a film by accident. They have selected every camera angle, every prop, every color, every note, everything for how it helps tell the story, what it says about the characters, the situation, and so on.
I'll just leave this here.
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:34 PM
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I understand your point but I don't really feel it applies in this situation. There are going to be flubs on a movie set. People are carrying around coffee cups and there will be times when somebody puts one down on a table and forgets it's there when the cameras start rolling. So you can find scenes in movies where you'll see stage equipment or crew members or coffee cups or other stuff from the set in a scene.

But we're talking about a ketchup bottle. It's not likely some crew member was having a swig of ketchup on set and put the bottle down there. That ketchup bottle was there on the table because somebody made a conscious decision to put it in the scene.
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:34 PM
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Ketchup is one of the few items where, until recently, there wasn't a high-class equivalent. Everyone used ketchup, and there weren't posh and common brands. It's why Andy Warhol painted ketchup, though not with it - that came later in art.
Until relatively recently, there wasn't a "high-class" version of ketchup, because ketchup wasn't the sort of thing a "high-class" person enjoyed. Ketchup was distinctly a condiment of the working class. You'd no more include it in a fancy dinner than you would a platter of Hot Pockets.
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:36 PM
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I understand your point but I don't really feel it applies in this situation. There are going to be flubs on a movie set. People are carrying around coffee cups and there will be times when somebody puts one down on a table and forgets it's there when the cameras start rolling. So you can find scenes in movies where you'll see stage equipment or crew members or coffee cups or other stuff from the set in a scene.

But we're talking about a ketchup bottle. It's not likely some crew member was having a swig of ketchup on set and put the bottle down there. That ketchup bottle was there on the table because somebody made a conscious decision to put it in the scene.
You're absolutely correct, of course - I just couldn't resist the cheap shot.

"Season 8 Game of Thrones is no Godfather" would also have been an acceptable response.
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:42 PM
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Until relatively recently, there wasn't a "high-class" version of ketchup, because ketchup wasn't the sort of thing a "high-class" person enjoyed. Ketchup was distinctly a condiment of the working class. You'd no more include it in a fancy dinner than you would a platter of Hot Pockets.
Right, but “eating down” has always been a thing for all but the snootiest of rich Americans. Everyone ate hamburgers from time to time, rich and poor, and they all ate them with the same brands of ketchup.
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Old 05-26-2020, 06:27 PM
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Possible, but unlikely. One thing I have learned from listening to professional filmmakers (including top-level crew members like cinematographers, production designers, costume designers, composers, etc.) is that almost nothing appears in any frame of a film by accident. They have selected every camera angle, every prop, every color, every note, everything for how it helps tell the story, what it says about the characters, the situation, and so on. If you asked Dean Tavoularis, the production designer on The Godfather, why he chose, say, the salt and pepper shakers on the table in that scene, he could probably tell you that they were historically accurate to the time and place, and a few other details that you and I would never have guessed about them.

The vast majority of these tiny decisions are never consciously noticed by the vast majority of viewers, but collectively they have an impact on the final production. (Or maybe they merely justify the big salaries these people are paid, and help film students write Ph.D dissertations. )

Oh, and another possibility that we haven't brought up: maybe Heinz paid for the product placement.
I like to think of it as deliberate foreshadowing. Whenever oranges appear in The Godfather, it's a indication that somebody is about to die. I believe the ketchup was meant to foretell the death of a horse. Had there been more horse deaths in the movie, no doubt there would have been ketchup preceding each one.
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Old 05-26-2020, 07:24 PM
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In Weird Al Yankovic's "One More Minute" the obvious innuendo of being stranded in the gas station of love and having to use the self-service pumps completely escaped me for possible decades.
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Old 05-26-2020, 07:45 PM
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"Season 8 Game of Thrones is no Godfather" would also have been an acceptable response.
From what I've heard, Season 8 Game of Thrones wasn't even Season 4 Sopranos.
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Old 05-27-2020, 08:08 AM
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C'mon Miller! This is a thread about Obvious Things in creative works, but some things are just beyond obvious. Are you really telling me that you don't understand what that Starbucks cup says about Daenerys? Sheesh!

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I like to think of it as deliberate foreshadowing. Whenever oranges appear in The Godfather, it's a indication that somebody is about to die. I believe the ketchup was meant to foretell the death of a horse. Had there been more horse deaths in the movie, no doubt there would have been ketchup preceding each one.
Working on your dissertation, I see.
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:15 AM
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Just realized that the insignia of the U.S. Astronautics Agency in 2001: A Space Odyssey has a sun and nine stars - the nine stars presumably representing the nine planets (as there were acknowledged to be at the time the movie was made):

https://www.scifigeeks.com/shop/spac...ogo-3-5-patch/
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...hoto/686453393
  #3683  
Old 05-27-2020, 02:57 PM
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Just realized that the insignia of the U.S. Astronautics Agency in 2001: A Space Odyssey has a sun and nine stars - the nine stars presumably representing the nine planets (as there were acknowledged to be at the time the movie was made):

https://www.scifigeeks.com/shop/spac...ogo-3-5-patch/
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...hoto/686453393

Meh, they will go back and forth on this.

They need to come up with a size requirement for moon, certainly, otherwise every baseball sized rock is a "moon".
  #3684  
Old 05-27-2020, 10:12 PM
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Possible, but unlikely. One thing I have learned from listening to professional filmmakers (including top-level crew members like cinematographers, production designers, costume designers, composers, etc.) is that almost nothing appears in any frame of a film by accident. They have selected every camera angle, every prop, every color, every note, everything for how it helps tell the story, what it says about the characters, the situation, and so on. If you asked Dean Tavoularis, the production designer on The Godfather, why he chose, say, the salt and pepper shakers on the table in that scene, he could probably tell you that they were historically accurate to the time and place, and a few other details that you and I would never have guessed about them.

The vast majority of these tiny decisions are never consciously noticed by the vast majority of viewers, but collectively they have an impact on the final production. (Or maybe they merely justify the big salaries these people are paid, and help film students write Ph.D dissertations. )

Oh, and another possibility that we haven't brought up: maybe Heinz paid for the product placement.
I apologize for the partial thread derail on this, but...

I talked to a friend of mine who's been in the industry for over 20 years (assistant director and production manager). He said he's not familiar with that scene in particular, but he thought it was more likely than not that the ketchup bottle was a deliberate choice, since it doesn't really seem to fit in with the rest of the aesthetics of the set as described, but it's also possible it was just something a set dresser put in there with no deeper meaning intended. According to him, both situations are common occurrences.
  #3685  
Old 05-27-2020, 10:17 PM
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Meh, they will go back and forth on this.

They need to come up with a size requirement for moon, certainly, otherwise every baseball sized rock is a "moon".
Read Neil DeGrasse Tyson's The Pluto Files. He makes a case against Pluto that's hard to refute.
  #3686  
Old 05-28-2020, 02:15 AM
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It could also be that Coppola used the Heinz bottle on the table to signify that Woltz is nouveau riche, because as Miss Manners would have explained, having any product (other than wine) on the dinner table in its original packaging is just not done. But having the ketchup in a silver salver, as Miss Manners might have recommended, wouldn't have highlighted Woltz's working-class tastes. So even though there were no posh ketchups available at the time, the Heinz bottle serves the filmmaker's intent of commenting on the character, as longhair75 suggests.
Agreed - having the ketchup there at all is a subtle sign, very well done. The brand probably helps with the recognition of what the item is too. I was only responding to the OP's topic, really.
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Old 05-29-2020, 07:28 AM
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As I've mentioned in the Recently Seen Movies thread, I re-watched Yellow Submarine a few nights ago. This time I took advantage of the "captions On" feature so I could maybe catch some of the asides that had passed me by on previous viewings. As I mentioned, I did find that at one point "John Lennon" makes a remark about being the "Ego Man" that I hadn't caught before.

Well, that was sort of buried in the background, but there was one other bit of punning that was right out in the open that I missed every other time I saw the film.

It's near the very beginning, when The Captain has accompanied Ringo into the Beatle Mansion, and they're looking for the other three. They open a door, and there, strapped down on an operating table, they see..

Captain: Frankenstein!

Ringo: Yeah. I dated his sister.

Captain His sister?

Ringo: Yeah....Phyllis.


To my credit, I understood this one the first time I saw the film, as a kid. If you look at "Frankenstein" as "Frank N. Stein", then his sister would be "Phyllis Stein" = "Philistine".

That's clever. But until this week, I missed the pun in the next exchange. There's a big lever next to the comatose Frankenstein, and The Captain cautions Ringo:

Captain: Don't pull that ever!

Ringo: Can't help it. I'm a born Lever Puller.




It had completely escaped me that you could read that as "I'm a born Liverpooler."
Ringo was, of course, one of the Lads from Liverpool.
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Old 05-29-2020, 01:46 PM
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I apologize for the partial thread derail on this, but...

I talked to a friend of mine who's been in the industry for over 20 years (assistant director and production manager). He said he's not familiar with that scene in particular, but he thought it was more likely than not that the ketchup bottle was a deliberate choice, since it doesn't really seem to fit in with the rest of the aesthetics of the set as described, but it's also possible it was just something a set dresser put in there with no deeper meaning intended. According to him, both situations are common occurrences.
There's a documentary about the making of The Shining that discusses the meanings of all of the small details in the sets of that film.

I read a commentary on the documentary where somebody essentially said "Let's not read too much into these details. Some of them were probably just random stuff that had no deeper meaning."

And another person said "That might be true on most movies. But it's not true in a Stanley Kubrick movie."
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Old 05-29-2020, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CalMeacham View Post
As I've mentioned in the Recently Seen Movies thread, I re-watched Yellow Submarine a few nights ago. This time I took advantage of the "captions On" feature so I could maybe catch some of the asides that had passed me by on previous viewings. As I mentioned, I did find that at one point "John Lennon" makes a remark about being the "Ego Man" that I hadn't caught before.

Well, that was sort of buried in the background, but there was one other bit of punning that was right out in the open that I missed every other time I saw the film.

It's near the very beginning, when The Captain has accompanied Ringo into the Beatle Mansion, and they're looking for the other three. They open a door, and there, strapped down on an operating table, they see..

Captain: Frankenstein!

Ringo: Yeah. I dated his sister.

Captain His sister?

Ringo: Yeah....Phyllis.


To my credit, I understood this one the first time I saw the film, as a kid. If you look at "Frankenstein" as "Frank N. Stein", then his sister would be "Phyllis Stein" = "Philistine".

That's clever. But until this week, I missed the pun in the next exchange. There's a big lever next to the comatose Frankenstein, and The Captain cautions Ringo:

Captain: Don't pull that ever!

Ringo: Can't help it. I'm a born Lever Puller.




It had completely escaped me that you could read that as "I'm a born Liverpooler."
Ringo was, of course, one of the Lads from Liverpool.

I think I posted that exact same thing a while ago. I know I intended to. Would have been over 3 years ago.
  #3690  
Old 05-29-2020, 03:39 PM
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Isn't a person from Liverpool a Liverpuddlian?
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Old 05-29-2020, 03:49 PM
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Isn't a person from Liverpool a Liverpuddlian?
Well, yes. But apparently in German it is Liverpooler, and they spent a bunch of time in Germany.

Found my post. It was 2013! Can't believe I remembered that.
  #3692  
Old 05-31-2020, 09:50 AM
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I was listening to the Pentecost reading today, which mentions that the apostles "were all together in one place" - which sounded awfully familiar; I wonder if that was in the back of Don McLean's mind when he wrote
"Oh, and there we were all in one place"
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Old Yesterday, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy L View Post
I was listening to the Pentecost reading today, which mentions that the apostles "were all together in one place" - which sounded awfully familiar; I wonder if that was in the back of Don McLean's mind when he wrote
"Oh, and there we were all in one place"

I read your post a day or so ago. Nice observation.

This song is just playing for me now on Pandora, so the line stuck out for me.

As I heard it, I found that I’d always thought that he wrote that to make the rhyme for “A generation lost in space” (a line that resonated for me as a childhood lover of “Lost in Space”).

Now I don’t know what to think, which line is primary (more important). I guess the poet would say they are both primary (“all the best words in the best order”). Don McLean was certainly a lyrical genius.
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