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  #101  
Old 08-29-2019, 10:48 PM
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Arrests have happened instead of beatings, for some.
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A pro-democracy group in Hong Kong said one of its leaders, well-known activist Joshua Wong, was arrested Friday morning.

Wong was pushed into a private car as he was heading to a subway station around 7:30 a.m. and has been taken to police headquarters, the Demosisto group said on its social media accounts. It later said another member, Agnes Chow, had also been arrested, at her home.
  #102  
Old 09-02-2019, 09:29 AM
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Kids boycotted school.
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Clad in gas masks along with their formal white school uniforms, tens of thousands of students in Hong Kong boycotted the first day of classes Monday as part of a citywide strike following a violent weekend of demonstrations.

High school students added gas masks, goggles and hard hats to their traditional uniforms, while university pupils crowded into a square at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. Workers also participated in their own rally at a public park, braving strong winds and storm clouds as a typhoon threatened.
Quote:
The young protesters strove to demonstrate their continued determination with Monday’s school boycott, the first of a planned two-day strike.

Jacky So, president of the Chinese University of Hong Kong’s student union, said 30,000 students attended a rally on campus. They dressed in black and wore face masks, waving banners for their student associations and black signs with the Chinese character for “Strike.”

Separately, high school students who were skipping class rallied in Edinburgh Place, a public square in Hong Kong’s central business district. Teenagers spoke to the crowd from a stage with a backdrop that read: “With no future, there’s no need to go to class.”
  #103  
Old 09-06-2019, 11:16 PM
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Things are still ramping up:
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Hong Kong authorities were limiting airport transport services and controlling access to terminals Saturday as they braced for a second weekend of disruption following overnight demonstrations that turned violent.
Quote:
Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam announced Wednesday that her government would formally withdraw the bill, but that has failed to appease protesters who have expanded their goals to include other issues.
Quote:
Violence erupted again late Friday in the crowded Kowloon area after police fired volleys of tear gas and rubber bullets as protesters smashed up metro stations and set fires on the street.

Demonstrators retreated after riot police chased them down streets but they regrouped again. Some lit piles boxes to build burning barricades while others used hammers and metal rods to smash traffic lights and vandalize subway stations. Graffiti along walls read “Boycott China” and “Liberty or death.”

Police said three subway stations had to be shut down after protesters thrashed ticket machines, security cameras and turnstiles and damaged fire facilities. Police slammed the behavior as “outrageous” and vowed to take “resolute enforcement actions.”
Things have not escaped Beijing's notice, of course:
Quote:
The persistent violence has hurt Hong Kong’s economy and sparked fears of a Chinese military intervention. Chinese officials have warned that Beijing will “not sit idly by” if the situation worsens.
As noted above, tho, the protestors have goals:
Quote:
Protesters have adopted a new slogan, “Five key demands, not one less.” In addition to the withdrawal of the extradition bill, they want an independent investigation into accusations of police brutality, the unconditional release of those detained during the protests, no more labeling of the protests as riots, and direct elections of the city’s leaders.
Quote:
Lam has rejected those demands.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 09-06-2019 at 11:17 PM.
  #104  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:32 PM
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Lam renews calls for dialogue; billionaire sides with protestors!
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Lam said Tuesday the escalation of violence over the weekend, where over 150 people including students were detained during clashes, will deepen rifts and prolong the road to recovery.

Billionaire Li Ka Shing said in a video broadcast on local TV that the government should temper justice with mercy. The 91-year-old Li described the unrest as the worst catastrophe since World War II.
  #105  
Old 09-15-2019, 08:41 AM
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Things haven't slowed down in Hong kong.
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Police fired chemical-laced blue water and tear gas at protesters who lobbed Molotov cocktails outside the Hong Kong government office complex Sunday, as violence flared anew after thousands of pro-democracy supporters marched through downtown in defiance of a police ban.

A mixed crowd of hardcore protesters in black and wearing masks, along with families with children, spilled into the roads of the Causeway Bay shopping belt and marched for over 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) to the central business district. Some waved U.S. and British flags, while others carried posters reiterating their calls for democratic reforms.

Police had turned down a request by the Civil Human Rights Front to hold the march, but the demonstrators were undeterred, as they have been all summer.

“I feel this is our duty. The government wants to block us with the ban, but I want to say that the people will not be afraid,” said one protester, Winnie Leung, 50.
I am very curious about what the phrase "chemical-laced blue water" means.

The protests are disrupting "business as usual" and they are drawing escalating responses.
Quote:
The march disrupted traffic, and many shops, including the Sogo department store in Causeway Bay, one of Hong Kong’s largest department stores, closed their doors.

Protesters burned Chinese flags and tore down banners congratulating China’s ruling Communist Party, which will celebrate its 70th year in power on Oct. 1. In familiar scenes, some protesters smashed glass windows and surveillance cameras at a subway station exit.

Hundreds of protesters later targeted the government office complex, throwing bricks and petrol bombs through police barriers. Police responded by firing volleys of tear gas and using water cannon trucks to spray chemical-laced water as well as blue liquid that helped them identify offenders, in a repeat of confrontational scenes from the last several weeks of the protests.
  #106  
Old 09-24-2019, 11:21 PM
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Don't know if this counts as "Western-splaining" or what, but this was a sight to see:

Western woman lectures protesters, tears down protest banners
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/new...YZj-U2eehA9iHQ
  #107  
Old 09-25-2019, 12:03 AM
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I watched the video.



Who is this tool?
  #108  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:54 PM
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From "China’s online gambling problem":

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In the mid-19th century, China was severely emasculated by the infamous opium trade from which British and American merchants built a fabulous fortune in silver. Smuggled into China mainly from colonial India where poppies were grown, opium reduced a large segment of the Chinese population to stupor. When the Qing dynasty viceroy Lin Zexu, in an act of self-defense, raided the foreign warehouses, confiscating opium chests laden with more than a thousand tons of the substance, the British took this as a provocation. The ensuing three-year Opium War led to China’s humiliating defeat, and to a historic settlement that, among other things, ceded Hong Kong to the British.
  #109  
Old 09-28-2019, 05:00 PM
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A whole bunch of people ignored the Tool Lady's advice and demonstrated but things eventually got out of hand:
Quote:
A massive pro-democracy rally Saturday in downtown Hong Kong ended early after violence broke out, with police firing tear gas and a water cannon after protesters threw bricks and Molotov cocktails at government buildings.

Police said in a statement that “radical protesters” lobbed gasoline bombs and damaged property outside the government offices, and aimed laser beams at a helicopter, posing “a serious threat to the safety of everyone” in the area.
Quote:
“We think we will lose because their force is so strong,” said one demonstrator, 22-year-old Sang Chan. “But if we don’t do anything now, we’ll have no other chance.”

A 32-year-old protester who would give only his surname, Chau, said the demonstrators hope to wear down the government. “It’s like a marathon to see who gets tired first,” he said.

Protesters unfurled a large banner that read “We are back” on a footbridge to the government office. A staircase leading to the bridge was turned into a veritable gallery of protest art, with posters stuck on every available surface of the walkway. One read “Persevere until final victory.”
  #110  
Old 09-29-2019, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
[/url]I am very curious about what the phrase "chemical-laced blue water" means.
My understanding is the water is dyed blue, therefore if you're protesting and get hit with the water cannon, then you'll stick out like a sore Smurf until it wears off. Much harder to fade into the crowd (and HK is always crowded).
  #111  
Old 09-30-2019, 12:33 AM
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Aye; I was just concerned that "chemical-laced" could include the introduction of some kind of irritant. So far I haven't heard anything to confirm or support that worry so I'll chalk the phrasing up as a poor choice of words.
  #112  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:43 PM
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Don't know if anyone will find it interesting, but here is a YouTube video from Al Jazeera English, their YouTube Channel, talking about Hong Kong, though the title of the video is "How will China's communist party manage challenges to its rule?". Not sure I agree with the people on the panel, especially Gordan Chang(?) who seems to think that Beijing's options are much more limited than I feel they are, but it is an interesting discussion if anyone is interested. I don't know if I mentioned this, but one of my favorite channels, China Uncensored has done a huge series on Hong Kong, and they are actually there right now (this is the second time they have traveled to report directly from the protests). Not going to link to that, as it's something like 10 or more videos, but if anyone is interested I can give a link to the main site, or you can look it up yourself if you like.

Basically, the short version of what I linked to is asking the question of how Xi and the CCP will deal with the multiple challenges facing China, including the trade war, disputes with neighbors including those in the South China Sea, and, of course, the big one right now...Hong Kong.
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  #113  
Old 10-05-2019, 08:37 AM
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Hong Kong ‘semi-paralyzed’ as ban-defying marches persist
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Following up on its face-mask ban that went into effect at midnight Friday, the government also hammered home a get-tough message that it would not bow to rioters and appealed for public support after an overnight rash of widespread violence, including arson attacks. Citizens awoke Saturday not only to closed subway stations but also shuttered shops and banks, where lines formed at cash machines.
Quote:
In a televised address broadcast as protesters again marched in masks, a solemn Carrie Lam, the city’s chief executive, described Hong Kong as “semi-paralyzed” and said, “Everyone is worried, anxious, or even scared.”

“The government needs to take drastic measures to say no to violence, restore peace in society, protect citizens’ right to continue their daily lives and freedom, not allowing a small group of rioters to destroy it,” she said.

John Lee, the government’s security secretary, said by not condemning violence, people are stoking it.

“What is adding oil to violence is people’s support for these acts,” he said. “What is important is that everybody comes out to say, ‘No, society will not accept violence.’”


"What is not important is that everybody comes out to say 'No, society will not accept loss of self-governance.'"
  #114  
Old 10-05-2019, 12:29 PM
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As much as I despise Carrie Lam, she is stuck in between a rock and a hard place. She can't defy her Beijing puppet-masters, but it can't be fun to be in a city where millions hate you and you face a not-insignificant chance of assassination. And by withdrawing the criticized extradition bill, she may have run afoul of aforementioned Beijing masters.


But yes, her words are a classic case of blaming the victim.
  #115  
Old 10-05-2019, 12:53 PM
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I agree, Lam is screwed either way. But she made her bed . . .

The protestors themselves are organized in an unusual way - there is no organization. Or at least there is no organized or central coordinating body (AIUI). This not only protects them from infiltration and surveillance, it makes calling on "them" to stop, or to do anything as a cohesive whole problematic if not impossible.

The lack of a central command may protect the protestors, but it also has its downsides. Even if a large majority of them wish to renounce violence, or drop the masks (or not), or do anything as a unified front, they would seem to have no way to coordinate except through whatsapp and word of mouth. Not only would the message not reach everyone, but there would be some cliques or subgroups who may do the opposite. This makes it easier for the CCP to tar the whole movement with an unrepresentative brush. Xi or Lam can focus on the actions of a subgroup of demonstrators and label them as representing the whole group and thus justify to the non-HK Chinese (and maybe even the world at large) that 'harsh measures' are required.

Last edited by KarlGauss; 10-05-2019 at 12:56 PM.
  #116  
Old 10-05-2019, 05:15 PM
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Which is why I won't be surprised if when this all shakes out we see the emergence of a new kind of democracy, where technology helps everyone have a voice on ddamned near everything.
  #117  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:21 AM
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The Houston Rockets posted a message in support of Hong Kong protesters, only to retract it under heavy backlash from China. Now they are facing a backlash for retracting it.
  #118  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:08 PM
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It looks like Beijing has about had enough, perhaps: Lam says Chinese military could step in if uprising gets bad.

Basically, everyone is now acknowledging that this is a revolutionary movement.
Quote:
Hong Kong’s leader Carrie Lam warned Tuesday that the Chinese military could step in if an uprising for democratic reforms that has rocked the city for months “becomes so bad” but reiterated the government still hopes to resolve the crisis itself.

Lam urged foreign critics to accept that the four months of protests marked by escalating violence were no longer “a peaceful movement for democracy.”

She said seeking Chinese intervention was provided for under Hong Kong’s constitution but that she cannot reveal under what circumstances she will do so.

″ I still strongly feel that we should find the solutions ourselves. That is also the position of the central government that Hong Kong should tackle the problem on her own but if the situation becomes so bad, then no options could be ruled out if we want Hong Kong to at least have another chance,” she told a news conference.
"No longer a peaceful movement" is a really polite way of saying "violent crazy people with no purpose but to cause havoc and woe" but the underlying meaning ("they're going to deserve what we are about to give them") stands out pretty well, I think.
  #119  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:44 AM
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It is fascinating to me the ways in which technology is being employed in this struggle. This story was up on the AP this morning: China criticizes Apple for app that tracks Hong Kong police.

In a nutshell, the app allows people to post things that are happening at a location which is then placed on a map of Hong Kong: police are gathering at this intersection; they've fired tear gas in this park; etc.

Beijing doesn't like this:
Quote:
HKmap.live, designed by an outside supplier and available on Apple Inc.’s online store, “facilitates illegal behavior,” People’s Daily said in a commentary.

“Is Apple guiding Hong Kong thugs?” the newspaper said.
They're laying it on heavy, albeit through third and fourth parties at the moment:
Quote:
Asked whether the Chinese government had asked Apple to remove HKmap.live from its online store, a foreign ministry spokesman said he had no information about that.

“What I can tell you is that these radical, violent crimes in Hong Kong have seriously challenged the legal system and social order in Hong Kong, threatened the safety of Hong Kong residents’ lives and property, and undermined the prosperity and stability of Hong Kong,” said the spokesman, Geng Shuang.

“Anyone who has a conscience and justice should resist and oppose instead of supporting and indulging those actions,” Geng said at a regular news briefing.
Quote:
“Apple jumped into this on its own and mixed together business with politics and commercial activity with illegal activities,” People’s Daily said.
Quote:
“This recklessness will cause much trouble for Apple,” People’s Daily said. “Apple needs to think deeply.”
I think people should get to work and make as many of these apps for as many different cities as possible as fast as possible.

ETA: I also posted this information in a thread in GD on China's influence on free speech in the west.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 10-09-2019 at 10:45 AM.
  #120  
Old 10-13-2019, 12:21 AM
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The AP reports that all trust between protestors (and a significant portion of the public, it seems) and police is now gone:
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As a police van sped past them, the 90-year-old woman and her 60-year-old daughter raised their fists, pointed their thumbs very deliberately down and yelled, “Triads!”

That silver-haired women in Hong Kong no longer think twice about openly accusing officers of being in cahoots with mafia gangs shows how public trust in the city’s 30,000-strong police force, once considered among the finest in Asia, has been catastrophically damaged in the storm of protest gripping the international business hub.

In trying to end the anti-government demonstrations, which broke out in multiple locations again on Saturday and are now in their fifth month, one of the most pressing problems to solve for Hong Kong leaders will be dispelling the now widespread public scorn for police officers. Protest graffiti likening officers to dogs and worse is all over the city, and protesters Saturday chanted for the force to be disbanded.
Quote:
Still, restoring any semblance of trust between police officers and the 7.5 million people they are sworn to serve and protect is going to be a long, hard battle.

Demonstrators widely decry the force’s policing of the hundreds of protests that began in early June as thuggish, with more than 2,300 people arrested. Its liberal use of tear gas and what has become a familiar sight of officers in full riot gear pursuing young protesters and making muscular, sometimes brutish arrests has come as a shock to a city that long prided itself on being safe.
Quote:
A 58-year-old teacher of English and history at the protest outside the police headquarters said she’d been terrified by the increase in violence this month, which included two police shootings of teen-aged demonstrators who were injured. She said trust in the police would take “a million years to rebuild.” The teacher said she didn’t want to be identified by name because her school wants “all the staff to stay absolutely silent.”

“We can’t do without the police, but we can’t rely on the police,” she said. “So what do we do?”
  #121  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:28 PM
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It looks like Beijing has about had enough, perhaps: Lam says Chinese military could step in if uprising gets bad.

Basically, everyone is now acknowledging that this is a revolutionary movement."No longer a peaceful movement" is a really polite way of saying "violent crazy people with no purpose but to cause havoc and woe" but the underlying meaning ("they're going to deserve what we are about to give them") stands out pretty well, I think.
Maybe don't let Lam define the movement.
  #122  
Old 11-24-2019, 01:39 PM
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Elections yesterday, and the early votes show a strong surge for the pro-democracy/anti-Beijing side. Out of 160 seats to be declared thus far, the pro-democracy factions have taken 140 versus just 17 for the pro-Beijingers.

Last edited by Velocity; 11-24-2019 at 01:44 PM.
  #123  
Old 11-24-2019, 01:45 PM
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Edit: The numbers are apparently being continuously updated and changing in that article.
  #124  
Old 11-24-2019, 02:05 PM
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The elections aren’t going to matter for Hong Kong in the long term.
  #125  
Old 11-24-2019, 05:38 PM
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Do we know what kind of voting system was being used? Was there a paper record or was it all electronic?

I also wonder how they secured everything from the CPC's prying eyes (or maybe they didn't). Not so much that Xi would interfere with anything, more that the Chinese might be keeping track of who voted for whom.

A quick search wasn't helpful.
  #126  
Old 11-24-2019, 07:14 PM
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I agree with octopus: I think Beijing will simply write this off as fake news and claim that HK has been corrupted by the US and UK.
  #127  
Old 11-24-2019, 07:23 PM
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Do we know what kind of voting system was being used? Was there a paper record or was it all electronic?

I also wonder how they secured everything from the CPC's prying eyes (or maybe they didn't). Not so much that Xi would interfere with anything, more that the Chinese might be keeping track of who voted for whom.

A quick search wasn't helpful.
AIUI, most if not all ballots are paper, and usually they are counted out loud, visibly in public, although in some precincts some cops tried to close off the vote-counting from public eyes.
  #128  
Old 11-24-2019, 07:35 PM
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I think this may be one of the first political threads on the Straight Dope in which everyone is pretty much on the same side. Good work, China.
  #129  
Old 11-25-2019, 08:40 PM
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https://apnews.com/772a858088b14848a3beeb4b4490365c
Quote:
The election cleared up any doubts people may have had about Hong Kong’s silent majority.

The central government in Beijing has portrayed the protests as the work of a small group of rioters wreaking havoc, disrupting and even endangering the lives of Hong Kong’s 7.4 million people in the process.

Pro-government candidates said a vote for them would be a vote to end the violence and restore stability in the city.

The black-clad protesters believed they still had public support — including the office workers who joined lunchtime demonstrations in a central business district — even as they smashed storefronts, threw gasoline bombs and blocked rush hour traffic and trains in escalating tactics designed to get the government to bend to their demands, including full democracy and police accountability.

The protesters, it seems, were right. The pro-democracy forces trounced the ruling pro-Beijing camp in the election, taking control of 17 of the 18 district councils.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 11-25-2019 at 08:42 PM.
  #130  
Old 12-01-2019, 02:33 PM
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The elections aren’t going to matter for Hong Kong in the long term.
They haven't mattered much since July 2017.

"Now Hong Kong has returned to the motherland’s embrace for 20 years, the Sino-British Joint Declaration, as a historical document, no longer has any practical significance, and it is not at all binding for the central government’s management over Hong Kong..."
  #131  
Old 12-01-2019, 09:00 PM
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Two additional points to consider are the history of HK and U.S. interests (in terms of trade surplus and use of the area for legal and financial work).
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  #132  
Old 05-21-2020, 07:46 PM
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Looks like China is going for broke:The harder the people of Hong Kong protest, the more crushing will be Xi's response.

I get that they are screwed in 27 years no matter what. But I am not sure that all of Hong Kong's citizens will be willing to surrender their freedoms ahead of time. It's going to get ugly, incrementally ugly, and with pandemics to worry about now, and god knows what in the future, no one outside Hong Kong will be able to do anything other than to wring their hands furiously.
  #133  
Old 05-26-2020, 01:39 PM
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Is there a good link where I could get more information?
https://www.theepochtimes.com/c-crossroads
https://www.youtube.com/user/NTDChin...sored/featured
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=corqhVJvxWU
  #134  
Old 05-26-2020, 01:40 PM
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I get that they are screwed in 27 years no matter.
What makes you think that communist China will be around in 27 years?
https://www.theepochtimes.com/china-...a_3357391.html

Last edited by burrunderthe saddle; 05-26-2020 at 01:44 PM.
  #135  
Old 05-26-2020, 01:52 PM
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I remember quite some years ago we had a debate on what nation is "most free' and Hong Kong was brought up. I pointed out that China could and would crack down anytime they wanted, and that made some HK fan get into a fit of gibbering rage. HK is exactly as "free" as China will let it be.

I was sure this was gonna happen- absent China itself becoming a free nation.
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