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  #51  
Old 12-20-2019, 01:21 PM
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These movies followed the same classic formula. (So did Eps 1-3, but they were just plain unwatchable, IMO)
Episodes 1-3, when they come on television and I’ve deigned to devote a few minutes to watching, give me the same feels as those 1950s biblical and historical epics. Quo Vadis in particular, and not in a good way. Too clean, too preachy, uneven performances, and the CGI has all the visual appeal of a matte painting.

Last edited by ASL v2.0; 12-20-2019 at 01:25 PM.
  #52  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:00 PM
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Revenge of the Sith wasn't a masterpiece, but it's also not on the same level of badness as the first two.
  #53  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:02 PM
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Huh, just got out of my 11am showing. I loved it, absolutely loved it. So of course I come here and read how terrible it was. Go figure.
  #54  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:06 PM
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I knew that was Wedge in the final battle, IMDB just confirmed it! (it wasn't there last night)
  #55  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:43 PM
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I loved it. It is now tied with Rogue One as my favorite Star Wars movie.
  #56  
Old 12-20-2019, 04:08 PM
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I loved it. It is now tied with Rogue One as my favorite Star Wars movie.
Same here, although R1 may still have a very slight edge.
  #57  
Old 12-20-2019, 04:16 PM
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Huh, just got out of my 11am showing. I loved it, absolutely loved it. So of course I come here and read how terrible it was. Go figure.
Son in Law texted me as I was about to leave for the theater: "Text me some non-spoilers!" So I immediately wrote back: "Spoiler: Nerds will pick it to death, but I'll like it."
  #58  
Old 12-20-2019, 05:49 PM
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Saw it this morning. Thought it was perfectly serviceable as a high budget f/x space fantasy film with Star Wars characters, new and old, playing their roles in the Star Wars galaxy. But the trilogy as a whole just seemed like a massive missed opportunity. Beautiful settings with cool characters with nothing interesting happening.
I give Rian Johnson some credit for trying to inject some twists or make something interesting out of what JJ Abrams set up, but the whole set up was kind of a dud. Rise of Skywalker contained zero surprises. People are requesting “no spoilers” but can you even think of anything that would have been a spoiler? Leia dies? Yeah, pretty much expected that. Palpatine defeated? Well, you’re not going to end it with him winning are you? Rey is Palpatine’s granddaughter? Wow, shocker.
Kind of reminded me of the last season of Game of Thrones. Big, beautiful, ...... and just played straight down the middle with everything happening like you’d expect it to.
Chances, the unexpected, plot twists, risk of death = drama.
With none of that you really have no drama.
  #59  
Old 12-20-2019, 06:38 PM
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Quick question: did anyone see it in IMAX, and if so, was there a long prologue to Christopher Nolan's Tenet in front of the feature?
  #60  
Old 12-20-2019, 06:46 PM
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Quick question: did anyone see it in IMAX, and if so, was there a long prologue to Christopher Nolan's Tenet in front of the feature?
I did and there was. It was amazing! I need to go see that movie.
  #61  
Old 12-20-2019, 06:47 PM
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I've just never heard anyone articulate a single complaint about new movies that did not also apply in spades to the originals.
The new trilogy cribs too much of its plot from the first trilogy.

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As somebody who thought that The Last Jedi was poorly written trash, I *did* enjoy that The Rise of Skywalker spent so much of its narrative sticking a giant middle finger to the previous movie. The highlight for me was the not-so-subtle dig by Charlie-from-LOST and Finn at the Holdo Maneuver, which single-handedly destroyed the SW continuity even as JJ did what he could to overcome that (the continuity is still trashed by it btw).
I'd be more impressed with Abrams there if he hadn't fucked it up just as bad with "hyperspace skipping." Turns out, traveling through hyperspace is like dusting crops.

I was pretty meh on the film. JJ Abrams has great ideas that go nowhere. He has no idea how to handle the story that Rian Johnson left him, so he creates a whole new one - then bungles the end to that. Bringing back Palpatine as some sort of Force lich is a great idea. That should have been the first movie in the trilogy. It gives the whole series a unifying theme of multiple generations of the Skywalker family fighting against Palpatine. Instead, we get Luke's one major accomplishment - restoring the Jedi order - undone in the first movie in the trilogy, and his other major accomplishment - killing the Emperor - undone in the third. At least he still has "letting a mass murderer go to Jedi heaven" to fall back on.

Also, when Rey's all, "I have all the Jedi with me," or whatever, how do you not have an army of Force ghosts behind her, with every recognizable Jedi from the franchise front-and-center?
  #62  
Old 12-20-2019, 06:53 PM
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Also, when Rey's all, "I have all the Jedi with me," or whatever, how do you not have an army of Force ghosts behind her, with every recognizable Jedi from the franchise front-and-center?
YES! That would have been AMAZING, and also demonstrate just how powerful becoming part of the Force is supposed to be, demonstrating exactly how being a spirit would provide the support Rey needed. Whispery voices don't mean diddly.
  #63  
Old 12-20-2019, 07:06 PM
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The new trilogy cribs too much of its plot from the first trilogy.
Kinda like cribbing the ending of the first movie for the third one?
  #64  
Old 12-20-2019, 07:21 PM
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Yikes, that was something.

I think I loved most of this movie, but it was clearly an almost 3+ hour original edit that was trimmed down into the movie we see. The opening 30-40 minutes felt edited down a lot and was very rushed.

Still, it worked as a movie quite well....though I have questions:

1. How did the Emperor come back to life after Darth Vader killed him? Dominic Monaghan had a very quick line about "dark cloning" or something. Uh, it would have been easy to have the Emperor discuss his survival. "In spirit form I roamed for years until I found a body..." Kind of like Voldemort.

2. That arena area at the end. Were there really a bunch of people there chanting as the Emperor talked about the ritual. Were they real or just ghosts of sith? I have no idea what was happening with this ending.

3. The Emperor can:

a. shoot his lightning way up into the sky
b. control it so well that it only fries the opponents ships

Is that right?

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Also, when Rey's all, "I have all the Jedi with me," or whatever, how do you not have an army of Force ghosts behind her, with every recognizable Jedi from the franchise front-and-center?
Like the Resurrection Stone does with Harry Potter. I thought they were going to form a ring around Rey or something. Nope, just voices. I wonder if they could not get the actors in the way they wanted.
  #65  
Old 12-20-2019, 07:28 PM
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Like the Resurrection Stone does with Harry Potter. I thought they were going to form a ring around Rey or something. Nope, just voices. I wonder if they could not get the actors in the way they wanted.
Well first off some of them are cartoons (Kanan and Ahsoka), some are dead (Alec Guiness), and a few look nothing like they did when they died (Hayden Christensen and Liam Neeson). I'm sure they could have gotten around most of that but the reality of getting ALL of them back just for that one scene would have been quite a bit of trouble and they would've had to completely skip the cartoon characters which would have been a shame. And if you can't get them all it wouldn't be the same.

Last edited by DigitalC; 12-20-2019 at 07:28 PM.
  #66  
Old 12-20-2019, 07:46 PM
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2. That arena area at the end. Were there really a bunch of people there chanting as the Emperor talked about the ritual. Were they real or just ghosts of sith? I have no idea what was happening with this ending.
When Rey first entered, I thought I saw giant piles of skulls in the walls behind her, so I'm leaning towards "Sith ghosts."

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3. The Emperor can:

a. shoot his lightning way up into the sky
b. control it so well that it only fries the opponents ships

Is that right?
I figure the Emperor sitting on his throne in the heart of a ancient Sith fortress has a lot more juice to play with than usual, so I can give that scene a pass.
  #67  
Old 12-20-2019, 07:52 PM
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Haven't read through the thread yet but just got back. That was 4 hours of movie crammed into two hours that felt like an exhausting 3.5 hours. And not in a good way. Also probably the worst editing I've seen in a major film since Suicide Squad.

Story was... meh. I was bored and ready to get up in the first 20min (but my wife was there so I didn't). Bunch of humor that didn't land (no one in the audience laughed at all the obvious sight gags) and bunch of usual pew-pew stuff done before.
  #68  
Old 12-20-2019, 08:02 PM
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I figure the Emperor sitting on his throne in the heart of a ancient Sith fortress has a lot more juice to play with than usual, so I can give that scene a pass.
Plus he had just sucked out Rey and Ben's juice as well. I think it's strongly implied that, in that moment, he's the most powerful Sith Lord that's ever existed.
  #69  
Old 12-20-2019, 08:11 PM
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OK, what about Question #1 I asked.

Was there any explanation how the Emperor resurrected(or didn't die)?
  #70  
Old 12-20-2019, 08:17 PM
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OK, what about Question #1 I asked.

Was there any explanation how the Emperor resurrected(or didn't die)?
I'm going with "never died" entirely due to how fucked up his body was, most people seem to think it was a clone but it doesn't make much sense to me. Don't think they actually explained it.
  #71  
Old 12-20-2019, 08:20 PM
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I'm going with "never died" entirely due to how fucked up his body was, most people seem to think it was a clone but it doesn't make much sense to me. Don't think they actually explained it.
Yeah, Dominic Monaghan mentioned "dark cloning" or something(it was one two-second line).

Anyway, I think there had to be an explanation, even if it was kind of quick and lame. Leaving it without even a hand-wave explanation was bad. The editing was very rough on this movie, but they should have left some lines in for this.
  #72  
Old 12-20-2019, 08:49 PM
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Just finished it. Haven't read the thread yet. My initial thoughts - lots of great stuff, but I don't think it worked as a whole. Just too much "epicness" with not nearly enough build up and tension. It never felt particularly substantial, even with all the huge things going on.
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  #73  
Old 12-20-2019, 08:53 PM
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I see that a lot of people are either 'meh' or downright antagonistic towards bringing back Palpatine as the big baddie, but the thing is I actually think it would have been perfectly fine and cool to do that *if* that move had been properly telegraphed in TFA and carried through this entire trilogy.

Seriously, these sequel films are a textbook example of how to spectacularly fail at outlining a story arc and sticking to it. I don't care about any spin that JJ et al are spinning now, but IMO it is *obvious* that TROS's answers re: Rey's parents and Palpatine were the consequence of JJ and his cowriter having to retrofit a bunch of story beats onto a narrative that did not go where it was originally supposed to go. The result is a sudden revival of Palpatine that is never explained and that makes no sense.

On the one hand, you can thank Rian Johnson for creating an entirely inconsequential and dumb TFA sequel - Rey receives no training and she moves some rocks; that's it, that's the movie! - *but* the higher ups at Lucasfilm deserve some flak too for not forcing Johnson to stick to whatever endgame JJ had originally outlined. Such a mess.
  #74  
Old 12-20-2019, 09:03 PM
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Yeah, Dominic Monaghan mentioned "dark cloning" or something(it was one two-second line).
The way I read it was that he managed to preserve his consciousness after death much like how the Jedi can become Force ghosts, and he eventually managed to implant himself into a clone body the cultists on Exagol made for him. Snoke was probably an early, imperfect clone that he was controlling.
  #75  
Old 12-20-2019, 09:22 PM
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I also didn't like the Palpatine thing, and didn't like that Rey was his granddaughter. Maybe it could have worked if this had been the plan all along, with twists and hints and build up. But out of the blue, I don't think either really worked.

Lots of great moments, but not enough build up and tension for those great moments to feel earned. Except maybe the Kylo/Ben heel-face turn. That had been hinted out through the whole story, and even if it was compressed in this movie, I still bought it, probably because Driver is such a phenomenal actor.
  #76  
Old 12-20-2019, 09:32 PM
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The things I liked best were Rey and Kylo, and they've been the best parts of all 3 movies. The fight in the ocean was really terrific. TLJ was my favorite, by far, of the new trilogy because of how it handled them, as well as how it handled Luke (IMO the only possible way Luke would have sat on his ass while Kylo murders billions in TFA would be if he had had some sort of existential crisis of meaning, and Rian Johnson managed to make that work and feel real).

But overall... I don't know. I think I'd like to see it again, because there was so much stuff that I'm sure I missed some call backs and cameos and the like. But I don't think it's going to make the out-of-the-blue (and unexplained) Palpatine resurrection, and Rey's bloodline, any less random-feeling.
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Old 12-20-2019, 09:50 PM
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It was uneven, but I enjoyed it. You could almost see the Disney hand behind the scenes, looking for merchandising options and locales for new rides. Too many jumps around in the first half of the movie, they were unnecessary. The second half was better even if you could see them setting up the "epic" closure and bookend from the first movie.

The way Rey finished off the emperor reminded me of the end of Wonder Woman. Seeing Ben smile was nice. The cameo from Harrison Ford gave me a little sniffle. They First Order spy was obvious, but with little payoff. The Sith fleet was pretty over-the-top, especially the planet killer cannon. I never would have guessed Keri Russel as Zorii. Nice that Chewy finally got his medal.
  #78  
Old 12-20-2019, 09:53 PM
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But I don't think it's going to make the out-of-the-blue (and unexplained) Palpatine resurrection, and Rey's bloodline, any less random-feeling.
As I said, I feel like the story of how Palpatine convinced some woman to bear his child is worth telling. Rey was born in 15 ABY, and her father looked to be in his mid-thirties or so in the brief flashback we saw, so he was probably born between 25-15 BBY - either while Palpatine was Chancellor, or after he became scarred and deformed and declared himself emperor. Either possibility is potentially tragic and terrifying.
  #79  
Old 12-20-2019, 09:53 PM
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At some point early on in the movie, I started to think of the film as the sequel to the alternate-universe Episode 8 that J.J. Abrams would have directed, and not the Episode 8 that was actually made. All that jumbled exposition and veers in character development? That's just because I didn't see the previous film.

It helped a bit.
I had literally the exact same thought.
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Old 12-20-2019, 10:03 PM
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At some point early on in the movie, I started to think of the film as the sequel to the alternate-universe Episode 8 that J.J. Abrams would have directed, and not the Episode 8 that was actually made. All that jumbled exposition and veers in character development? That's just because I didn't see the previous film.

It helped a bit.
Funny you would say that.

I left the theater and told my wife, "Clearly, that was both a new Episode VIII and Episode IX."

The editing was so rushed, it felt like two movies that had been re-cut into one.
  #81  
Old 12-20-2019, 10:09 PM
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I really liked the whole “feel” of this movie, but it also felt rushed and seems like it had some massive continuity issues. Here’s some questions and observations.

1. I thought the second Death Star was destroyed on the forest moon of Endor, home world of the Ewoks. Did it migrate to some new moon or planet while we weren’t looking? That moon / planet looked nothing like the Ewoks home world.

2. Did they really just gloss over how Luke’s blue lightsaber came back?

3. Palpatine gave a weak showing in his showdown with Rey. He was constantly shifting the goalposts, and not in a good way. At first he wanted Kylo to kill her. Then he wanted to rule with Rey at his side. Then he wanted her to strike him down so the Sith would go into her. Then he was plotting to have Rey and Kylo together so he could suck their combined powers. Then he wanted to merge with all the prior Sith. It’s like he was making it up as he went along rather than having a grand strategy that he had plotted out beforehand.
  #82  
Old 12-20-2019, 10:29 PM
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For two decades we have claimed that if anyone other than George Lucas was incharge we would have a great movie (s).
As the sequel trilogy ends, we realise that was not true.

Sorry George.
  #83  
Old 12-20-2019, 10:32 PM
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For two decades we have claimed that if anyone other than George Lucas was incharge we would have a great movie (s).
As the sequel trilogy ends, we realise that was not true.

Sorry George.
The dialogue and acting are much better (aside from Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor, who really were great in the prequels). But the story's not. Prequel stories probably made more sense, too. It'll be interesting to see what we're saying in another 10-20 years.
  #84  
Old 12-20-2019, 10:41 PM
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1. I thought the second Death Star was destroyed on the forest moon of Endor, home world of the Ewoks. Did it migrate to some new moon or planet while we weren’t looking? That moon / planet looked nothing like the Ewoks home world.
Maybe it was a call back to Disney's Return to Oz, in which Dorothy returns to an Oz that looks nothing like the Oz she left behind, so much grittier, dare I say even a little... goth/punk-fusion. Actually, I kind of liked the more down to earth feel of Oz in the return.

What were we talking about, again?

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  #85  
Old 12-20-2019, 10:41 PM
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2. Did they really just gloss over how Luke’s blue lightsaber came back?
That part did bother me a little. Luke had a green lightsaber in ROTJ. The blue one he had in ANH/ESB was Anakin's saber, which was destroyed in TLJ. Leia's lightsaber looked like the one Luke had in ROTJ, but it also had a blue beam.

I guess Rey/Leia rebuilt Anakin's saber, and for some reason Leia replaced the kyber crystal in Luke's saber so it'd be blue instead of green.
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Old 12-20-2019, 10:50 PM
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That part did bother me a little. Luke had a green lightsaber in ROTJ. The blue one he had in ANH/ESB was Anakin's saber, which was destroyed in TLJ. Leia's lightsaber looked like the one Luke had in ROTJ, but it also had a blue beam.

I guess Rey/Leia rebuilt Anakin's saber, and for some reason Leia replaced the kyber crystal in Luke's saber so it'd be blue instead of green.
I think the green one must still be out there somewhere else. There was that one scene when Luke was training Leia when he had the green one. Yeah, it was probably so we could tell them apart since they were both wearing helmets in that scene, but at least we got to see the green lightsaber one last time.
  #87  
Old 12-20-2019, 10:53 PM
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Hey Abrams is just repeating the beats of the last films

"They LOVED it when Leia was found to be Luke's sister!!" (nooooo...it was dumb and cringy and awfully convinent")

"They LOVED the Second Death Star so i'll up the stakes!!!" (no that was dumb too)
  #88  
Old 12-20-2019, 10:55 PM
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Didn’t Luke have the green saber in the TLJ flashback, where he was on the verge of killing Kylo? Maybe he left it there, as he made the decision to close himself off from the force and go into a self-imposed exhile.
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Old 12-20-2019, 11:01 PM
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I almost feel like there needs to be a ROS Pit thread for people to continue their rants on how terrible the movie/franchise is, and a Cafe Society thread where the actual plot, characters, settings of the movie can be discussed. I don't want to curb anyone's opinions or thoughts of the movie, but it gets a little tired constantly reading about how bad Star Wars sucks in Star Wars movies discussion threads.
  #90  
Old 12-20-2019, 11:09 PM
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Didn’t Luke have the green saber in the TLJ flashback, where he was on the verge of killing Kylo? Maybe he left it there, as he made the decision to close himself off from the force and go into a self-imposed exhile.
That was my thought. The green saber was just gone, probably still on the island.

I'm curious about how the galaxy rebuilds its government after all of this. The New Republic government was completely wiped out in TFA, and the First Order has been wiped out after ROS. Who's gonna run the show now? After the Empire fell, the Rebel Alliance had built a structure over the previous several years, so there were probably people ready to step up to form a new government then. But now there seems to be a total power vacuum. The Resistance is largely wiped out, and all of the random "people" that came to support the Resistance at the end, aren't really part of any power structure. Seems like it's just gonna be star systems jockeying for power now, which could make for some interesting stories (books, comics, etc).
  #91  
Old 12-20-2019, 11:10 PM
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For two decades we have claimed that if anyone other than George Lucas was incharge we would have a great movie (s).
As the sequel trilogy ends, we realise that was not true.

Sorry George.
Star Wars means different things to different people. There's so much baggage to Star Wars that it has to be really difficult to create a story that would work successfully as a guaranteed crowd pleaser, where you have to appeal to casual fans of the movies; the intensely nostalgic fans; the obsessive nerds who loved the Expanded Universe in the books, comics, and games; and the new audiences you want to attract in.

I'm sure I could come up with five or ten ideas that might be decent stories that could be comfortably told within the Star Wars universe, but would they have the forty-quadrant appeal Disney would demand? Then you have to direct them, which takes someone comfortable with ensemble adventure films full of complex visual effects and stratospheric budgets.

What will be good about the new TV series is the risk is less pressure, and they can try out some new voices, new eras, new characters, new styles, and then potentially expand them into a new movie series. A popular choice amongst the Expanded Universe fans is The Old Republic, the timeline set a thousand years or more before the familiar saga, the origins of the Jedi or Sith etc, where the technology is largely the same, but there's no baggage of the familiar Skywalker saga at all, so you can tell all new stories. But that is an unfamiliar locale for the casual fan, so a risky prospect. Better to try that on TV or animation first.

This trilogy has been an expensive experiment, and though it paid off in terms of return on investment, it was hard fought and arguably not won, so going back to a safe space for a while where they can lick their wounds and venture forth when it's clear to come out again is a good plan.
  #92  
Old 12-20-2019, 11:15 PM
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I think the green one must still be out there somewhere else. There was that one scene when Luke was training Leia when he had the green one. Yeah, it was probably so we could tell them apart since they were both wearing helmets in that scene, but at least we got to see the green lightsaber one last time.
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Originally Posted by ASL v2.0 View Post
Didn’t Luke have the green saber in the TLJ flashback, where he was on the verge of killing Kylo? Maybe he left it there, as he made the decision to close himself off from the force and go into a self-imposed exhile.
Good points. I guess that'd mean Leia crafted her saber to look like Luke's. It does open up a plothole when Leia talks about Anakin's saber as if it were Luke's creation, and Rey acting like she's not worthy of earning it when she's already been wielding it for awhile.

I'm gonna go ahead and fall back on "a wizard did it".
  #93  
Old 12-20-2019, 11:22 PM
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I'm curious about how the galaxy rebuilds its government after all of this. The New Republic government was completely wiped out in TFA, and the First Order has been wiped out after ROS. Who's gonna run the show now? After the Empire fell, the Rebel Alliance had built a structure over the previous several years, so there were probably people ready to step up to form a new government then. But now there seems to be a total power vacuum. The Resistance is largely wiped out, and all of the random "people" that came to support the Resistance at the end, aren't really part of any power structure. Seems like it's just gonna be star systems jockeying for power now, which could make for some interesting stories (books, comics, etc).
The strong implication throughout the decades has been that, at a sub-galactic level, the Republic was inherently a coalition of feudal monarchies - you've got all sorts of kings and princes and dukes and counts running about, some of whom are constitutional monarchs and some of whom are actively governing their planets/systems. If I were in charge of Star Wars, there'd be a "Galactic Dark Age" coming where the galaxy is split into countless states constantly at war with each other, and I think that'd be a ripe field for stories to be told.
  #94  
Old 12-20-2019, 11:27 PM
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The fight in the ocean was really terrific
I had to laugh at how Rey's clothes stayed bone dry throughout (even when Kylo Ren was soaked), presumably to avoid any wet drapery effect on Rey.
  #95  
Old 12-20-2019, 11:44 PM
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I had to laugh at how Rey's clothes stayed bone dry throughout (even when Kylo Ren was soaked), presumably to avoid any wet drapery effect on Rey.
Hey, if the force can keep you from dying in the vacuum of space, it can keep you dry, too, properly wielded. That’s where we are now with the force. It just does whatever, like those giant eagles in Lord of the Rings.
  #96  
Old 12-21-2019, 12:00 AM
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The Prequels were ok movies. The Sequels were (now that they are over) risible outputs that feel like they have been written by committee.
  #97  
Old 12-21-2019, 12:07 AM
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Kind of reminded me of the last season of Game of Thrones. Big, beautiful, ...... and just played straight down the middle with everything happening like you’d expect it to.
Chances, the unexpected, plot twists, risk of death = drama.
With none of that you really have no drama.
People expected Bran to become King? And Arya to kill the Night King?
  #98  
Old 12-21-2019, 12:17 AM
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The Sequels were (now that they are over) risible outputs that feel like they have been written by committee.
This one felt like it was written by a guy soliciting ideas from a crowd and writing them all on a whiteboard, promising to find a space for each one. "Mushroom looking people? Great! Green smoke world? Let's get that on the board. White pillar world? Can never have too many worlds. Giant Space Worms? Of course! Five thousand planet-destroying lasers? We can get that in...."
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Old 12-21-2019, 02:28 AM
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I almost feel like there needs to be a ROS Pit thread for people to continue their rants on how terrible the movie/franchise is, and a Cafe Society thread where the actual plot, characters, settings of the movie can be discussed. I don't want to curb anyone's opinions or thoughts of the movie, but it gets a little tired constantly reading about how bad Star Wars sucks in Star Wars movies discussion threads.
Funny thing is...if my kids mom wern't taking them....I'd probably go.

There's something to be said for spectacle. Its the reason I saw The Day After.
  #100  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:39 AM
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Remember Lost? Remember how right off the audience was like, "they're dead!", and they were like "Nuh uh!", and then that turned out to really be their endgame?

That's how I feel about this. They came out with The Force Awakens, many people correctly guessed what was going on (Rey being a Palpatine a big one), they threw some misdirection in with The Last Jedi, that unexpectedly did not go over well with the fans, and then swerved back on track.

Rey was NEVER supposed to be a Mary Sue with unimportant parents. Maybe Rian Johnson thought JJ had stupid ideas and tried to discard his stupid ideas, but that was not the original intent.

This movie was messy, and I blame that partially on duelling director visions, as well as unexpected things like Carrie's passing. But, it was pretty much what I expected it to be. Maybe that's not a good thing, but I'll give this a 6/10.
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