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  #101  
Old 12-21-2019, 03:21 AM
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One thing I noticed back in TFA and was even more evident here - J.J. Abrams has no idea how to stage space combat. It's all about the juxtaposition of fast and slow, big and small. With Abrams, though, it's just zipping around and never giving us a clear look at what's going on. That final battle should have been amazing; instead, it was just a blur.
  #102  
Old 12-21-2019, 04:35 AM
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Reading some reviews and this thread, it seems your opinion on Last Jedi (which I liked, altough it certainly isn't perfect) is a good indicator on how you feel about TROS. If you hated TLJ, you'll like this... if you liked TLJ, you'll be disappointed.

After reading some of the rotten tomatoes reviews, the 57% rating seems generous if anything. Some of those fresh reviews are pretty critical and give barely passable scores... Altough I was disappointed, I'd probably still give it 6 out of ten for being Star Wars...which would count as a positive rating there.

The point that it feels like a sequel to a chapter VIII that was never actually made, feels like a very good description of what TROS is.

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  #103  
Old 12-21-2019, 05:10 AM
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I guess Rey/Leia rebuilt Anakin's saber, and for some reason Leia replaced the kyber crystal in Luke's saber so it'd be blue instead of green.
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Thatís where we are now with the force. It just does whatever, like those giant eagles in Lord of the Rings.
"Seek for the light saber that was broken..."
  #104  
Old 12-21-2019, 05:25 AM
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I think most people's criticisms are at least broadly on point; yet still, I had an enjoyable time at the cinema. There's some truth to the idea that the original movies have come to be venerated beyond what their actual quality justifies, so new movies of comparable quality are going to feel like a bit of a letdown, but still, I think that this one broadly holds up in the end.


Perhaps its saving grace, to me, was that it seems JJ Abrams finally realized that he can't actually do Sci Fi, and hence, didn't. Space and tech were just a backdrop, and didn't need to be anything more. Whenever Abrams decides to introduce some Big Idea, the exploration of which is the core of what makes good Sci Fi to me, he just ends up bungling it, leaving us with abandoned game-changers like transwarp transporters that end up having no real consequences at all.

Also, he just doesn't have a sense of how a universe hangs together, both in the ordinary spatial and in the narrative sense; this sort of backdrop, which ought to constrain the story, to him always is manipulated by whatever means necessary to reach the next plot point, leaving one with the feeling of an inconsistent mess. But as I said, I think he mostly avoided that in this one---essentially by completely ignoring it.
  #105  
Old 12-21-2019, 07:10 AM
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3. Palpatine gave a weak showing in his showdown with Rey. He was constantly shifting the goalposts, and not in a good way. At first he wanted Kylo to kill her. Then he wanted to rule with Rey at his side. Then he wanted her to strike him down so the Sith would go into her. Then he was plotting to have Rey and Kylo together so he could suck their combined powers. Then he wanted to merge with all the prior Sith. Itís like he was making it up as he went along rather than having a grand strategy that he had plotted out beforehand.
I think we forget that these are the sith we are talking about who are both duplicitous and opportunists. His grand strategy was the fleet he had developed and possibly passing the mantle to some other worthy successor, everything else was basically reacting to new information and new opportunities. This also happened in the prequels were he had a strategy for taking over the republic but then found that he would be able to corrupt Anakin which would help him in that goal. Or in the original trilogy where he went from wanting to destroy Luke to seeing the possibilities if he turned him.

So yes, there was a grand plan, but when he found new opportunities, like the unusual connection between Kylo and Ren, he moved to seize them immediately. I agree that it would have been better if there had been a slower build up, but I did not mind him playing it by ear toward the end.

Also, the fact that he was brought back hooked up to a machine made sense to me because after all, he was the one who essentially kept Vader from dying after his encounter with Obi-wan. It makes sense that he would have technology to keep himself alive in case of emergency.

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  #106  
Old 12-21-2019, 07:29 AM
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Reading some reviews and this thread, it seems your opinion on Last Jedi (which I liked, altough it certainly isn't perfect) is a good indicator on how you feel about TROS. If you hated TLJ, you'll like this... if you liked TLJ, you'll be disappointed.
I liked both quite a bit.
  #107  
Old 12-21-2019, 07:29 AM
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Also, the fact that he was brought back hooked up to a machine made sense to me because after all, he was the one who essentially kept Vader from dying after his encounter with Obi-wan. It makes sense that he would have technology to keep himself alive in case of emergency.



//i\\
Plus, Palpatine hooked to the machine, moving around on some great appendage, was both visually and symbolically arresting: he was essentially something like a giant predator's lure, a human-shaped appendage dangling from something huge and unspeakable---meaning not the machine, but the dark side and all the Sith that came before him. Like the light of an anglerfish, or an insect-shaped leaf on a carnivorous plant.
  #108  
Old 12-21-2019, 08:52 AM
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One thing I noticed back in TFA and was even more evident here - J.J. Abrams has no idea how to stage space combat. It's all about the juxtaposition of fast and slow, big and small. With Abrams, though, it's just zipping around and never giving us a clear look at what's going on. That final battle should have been amazing; instead, it was just a blur.
I think he knows EXACTLY how to stage space combat. For a movie to be seen by people who donít know or donít care about physics.

Believe me, Iím with you. I would love to be able to nerd out over authentic space combat. But then in my mind "authentic space combat" would be pretty boring. Youíre on your way somewhere, and then before you even know it (much less know what hit you), you're dead, and so is everyone around you. The end.
  #109  
Old 12-21-2019, 09:55 AM
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I think he knows EXACTLY how to stage space combat. For a movie to be seen by people who don’t know or don’t care about physics.

Believe me, I’m with you. I would love to be able to nerd out over authentic space combat. But then in my mind "authentic space combat" would be pretty boring. You’re on your way somewhere, and then before you even know it (much less know what hit you), you're dead, and so is everyone around you. The end.
I agree with Alessan — a good comparison is the final space battle in ROTJ or Rogue One. We saw them progress, along with the tactical decisions and why they were made - first fighter skirmishes, then larger engagements, then "closer, engage those Star Destroyers at point blank range!" and such. I thought those were much more coherent and exciting space battles than the final one here.
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  #110  
Old 12-21-2019, 10:15 AM
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The Sith fleet just sitting there stationary did make the space battle a lot less exciting.
  #111  
Old 12-21-2019, 10:15 AM
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Okay, if you mean he doesnít even know how to do "Sci-fi" space battles (with an emphasis on the "fi") then I suppose I agree with you on all accounts.
  #112  
Old 12-21-2019, 11:14 AM
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Among the voices heard by Rey were ahsoka's and Kanan's (Ashley Eckstein and Freddie Prinze Jr), which means that not only is Ahsoka dead at this point, but she apparently re-joins the Jedi.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ign...-kanan%3famp=1
  #113  
Old 12-21-2019, 11:57 AM
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Quick question: did anyone see it in IMAX, and if so, was there a long prologue to Christopher Nolan's Tenet in front of the feature?
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I did and there was. It was amazing! I need to go see that movie.
Okay, next question: did anyone see it in IMAX and NOT see the Tenet prologue?

I've heard that it's showing at "select" IMAX theaters and I'm trying to figure out which have been selected.
  #114  
Old 12-21-2019, 12:25 PM
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My wife's understanding of Palpatine's plan. We both find these things hard to process after one theatrical viewing, so this may be in error:

1. Tell Kylo Ren to kill Rey - however, not really. He figures Kylo will bring her to him.

2. Tell Rey, once she is there, to kill him so....all the sith will go into her, including him. I guess he would be alive in that scenario and "in charge" or something.

3. Wait, now that the two of them are here, he realized the bond is even stronger between them than he realized and he can suck out the Force-power from them and simply fully heal himself and be the true Emperor. In this final move, he is abandoning the rest of the Sith spirits.


Neither of us understand for sure if he survived that fall at the end of Jedi. I guess he did? That was his decayed/damaged corpse, not a "dark clone" or anything?
  #115  
Old 12-21-2019, 12:31 PM
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Maybe their cloning technology is just not as good as the kaminoans, Snoke looked like hot garbage after all.
  #116  
Old 12-21-2019, 12:53 PM
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I really enjoyed the movie. However...

No one stays dead.
Luke, Han, Palpatine, Chewie, C3PO, Rey, Carrie Fisher...
All dead and brought back or wasn't really dead or at least appearing as visions.

I don't care for the expansion of force powers. Rey can heal deadly wounds and pull transports out of the sky. Ren can snatch a necklace off a neck or grab a light saber behind the back from across time & space. Palpatine can disable the Rebel fleet until distracted. And Leia was apparently a Jedi for a few minutes.

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Neither of us understand for sure if he survived that fall at the end of Jedi. I guess he did? That was his decayed/damaged corpse, not a "dark clone" or anything?
It wasn't just the fall, he had to survive (or escape) the explosion and later crashing of the Death Star 2.
  #117  
Old 12-21-2019, 01:30 PM
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My wife's understanding of Palpatine's plan. We both find these things hard to process after one theatrical viewing, so this may be in error:

1. Tell Kylo Ren to kill Rey - however, not really. He figures Kylo will bring her to him.

2. Tell Rey, once she is there, to kill him so....all the sith will go into her, including him. I guess he would be alive in that scenario and "in charge" or something.

3. Wait, now that the two of them are here, he realized the bond is even stronger between them than he realized and he can suck out the Force-power from them and simply fully heal himself and be the true Emperor. In this final move, he is abandoning the rest of the Sith spirits.


Neither of us understand for sure if he survived that fall at the end of Jedi. I guess he did? That was his decayed/damaged corpse, not a "dark clone" or anything?
The more I think about it, I think it was the same physical body that went down with the second Death Star. The clones that they were talking about were Snoke and the even more deformed Snokes that they showed.
  #118  
Old 12-21-2019, 01:41 PM
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If I have followed the chronology correctly.

1. Papa Palpatine died on DS2. He outright says it.
2. He had some sort of cloning ability or rudimentary body stashed away somewhere.
3. He had a Voldemort style Horcrux or instead of becoming a Force Ghost, he became a spirit that could take over bodies, like the ones mentioned in 2. The body obviously was not ready for prime time. He needed what appears to be some sort of life support system.
4. He then set to the work of recreating the Empire, using first the Knights od Ren, then the First Order then well...
  #119  
Old 12-21-2019, 01:56 PM
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Question about the end: when Kylo Ren was coming to help Rey fight the emperor, were those the Knights of Ren he was fighting off?
  #120  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:21 PM
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My wife got the impression that Rey sort of absorbed Ben's essence in the end. It would explain why he didn't show up as a ghost along with Luke and Leia, and give her an actual tangible feeling of being a Skywalker.
  #121  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:22 PM
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Question about the end: when Kylo Ren was coming to help Rey fight the emperor, were those the Knights of Ren he was fighting off?
Yes
  #122  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:27 PM
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My wife got the impression that Rey sort of absorbed Ben's essence in the end. It would explain why he didn't show up as a ghost along with Luke and Leia, and give her an actual tangible feeling of being a Skywalker.
Interesting perspective. I thought it was a missed opportunity not to have Luke, Leia and Ben reunited, perhaps along with Anakin. I would've loved to see Anakin and the twins together.
  #123  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:36 PM
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Question about the end: when Kylo Ren was coming to help Rey fight the emperor, were those the Knights of Ren he was fighting off?
Yes, and I told my wife at home that he could have yelled, "Sorry I took you all down the wrong path! Now, you must die!"

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If I have followed the chronology correctly.

1. Papa Palpatine died on DS2. He outright says it.
What did he say? I didn't remember if he specifically said he had died.

Last edited by Mahaloth; 12-21-2019 at 02:36 PM.
  #124  
Old 12-21-2019, 03:08 PM
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One thing I noticed back in TFA and was even more evident here - J.J. Abrams has no idea how to stage space combat. It's all about the juxtaposition of fast and slow, big and small. With Abrams, though, it's just zipping around and never giving us a clear look at what's going on. That final battle should have been amazing; instead, it was just a blur.
Thats a failure of a lot of shows....shit, ST:TOS had better space combat then the nauseating work on Discovery.
  #125  
Old 12-21-2019, 04:51 PM
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Look at this scene - still the gold standard - from Ep. 4, or this more recent sequence from Rogue One. There's a lot going on, but you can still see everything clearly, you know where everything is relative to everything else, and everything has a proper sense of scale: big things look big, small things look small. There's no need to create artificial excitement with blurring, jerky cameras and general chaos; instead, there's a sense of gracefulness, of elegance that just makes things even more thrilling. Plus, you can see the goddamn ships.

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Thats a failure of a lot of shows....shit, ST:TOS had better space combat then the nauseating work on Discovery.
Discovery was the absolute worse I've ever seen... two seasons in, and I have no idea what the Klingon ships look like, despite them appearing in multiple battles.
  #126  
Old 12-21-2019, 05:08 PM
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I just came from it, and without reading the rest of the thread, I liked it. I enjoyed many of the little references and callbacks to the first movie (and even one that seemed to be a callback to Lost).
  #127  
Old 12-21-2019, 05:19 PM
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I just came from it, and without reading the rest of the thread, I liked it. I enjoyed many of the little references and callbacks to the first movie (and even one that seemed to be a callback to Lost).
OK, I'll ask. What callback to LOST?
  #128  
Old 12-21-2019, 05:23 PM
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At the end, after Palpatine was dead, Rey was lying there, flat on her back, looking up. That seemed to me to reference the beginning and end of Lost, where Jack Shepard's character was also looking up. But maybe I'm reading too much into it and nothing was intended.
  #129  
Old 12-21-2019, 05:40 PM
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Look at this scene - still the gold standard - from Ep. 4
Trivial nitpick: Ep.5.

Yeah, one hell of a scene.
  #130  
Old 12-21-2019, 06:01 PM
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Reading some reviews and this thread, it seems your opinion on Last Jedi (which I liked, altough it certainly isn't perfect) is a good indicator on how you feel about TROS. If you hated TLJ, you'll like this... if you liked TLJ, you'll be disappointed.
I liked both. So much for theories.

Both had moments of greatness, and moments of stupidity.

On thing, I wish this movie wasn't so dark. Not dark, like plot, but underlit. I couldn't tell what was going on. I read comments here about palatine being tethered to a machine, or glimpses of cloning vats, and I'm like, did you all see a different movie than me?
  #131  
Old 12-21-2019, 06:29 PM
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Star wars has been part of my life for 42 years (nice callback on that with the festival)
The plot - meh
Rey being a Palpatine has been a rumor since Episode 7 -- Did the writes get the ideas from the fans?
I though Rey, Kylo, and even Poe were acted well.
Maybe not all of Endor is forest -- what was with the crashing Star Destroyers nowhere near the Sith planet? (glad we saw Ewoks)
Thought Fin and other ex stormtrooper were going to get together (sounds like it is Lando -- isn';t she a bit young for you?)
Were there any Easter Egg ships?
Bllie Lorde had a much smaller role than I expected (did she even have a line?)

Overall I am satisfied -- I am not ashamed to say I cried a little.
Brian
  #132  
Old 12-21-2019, 06:53 PM
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Forgot to mention:
Family is more than DNA - it is also the people you choose to be in your life.
(was the old lady just a random person -- in any case I expect a whole novel to be written about her)
Was surprise by Harrison Ford (I remained mostly spoiler free)
Any significance to Rey's yellow blade?
(its Billie Lourd -- sorry about that)

Brian

Last edited by N9IWP; 12-21-2019 at 06:57 PM.
  #133  
Old 12-21-2019, 06:59 PM
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What did he say? I didn't remember if he specifically said he had died.
He specifically says "I've died before" when Kylo Ren threatens to kill him.

Last edited by Smapti; 12-21-2019 at 06:59 PM.
  #134  
Old 12-21-2019, 07:01 PM
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Any significance to Rey's yellow blade?
It means she finally made her own lightsaber and officially became a Jedi. It's a not often used color in the movies, but not terribly rare.
  #135  
Old 12-21-2019, 07:05 PM
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It means she finally made her own lightsaber and officially became a Jedi. It's a not often used color in the movies, but not terribly rare.
It is the first yellowish saber in any of the major movies, right? Episodes I-IX, Rogue One, and Solo. Not a single saber except Red, Blue, Green, and Purple(Windu).
  #136  
Old 12-21-2019, 07:07 PM
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Edit: Double post for some reason

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Old 12-21-2019, 07:07 PM
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Family is more than DNA - it is also the people you choose to be in your life.
Right. I assumed that's why Rey said her last name was Skywalker at the end. She was explicitly rejecting any association with her grandfather.
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Old 12-21-2019, 07:09 PM
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It is the first yellowish saber in any of the major movies, right? Episodes I-IX, Rogue One, and Solo. Not a single saber except Red, Blue, Green, and Purple(Windu).
Yup, this is correct. Jedi Temple guards used yellow, but those are from the cartoons.
  #139  
Old 12-21-2019, 07:13 PM
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It means she finally made her own lightsaber and officially became a Jedi. It's a not often used color in the movies, but not terribly rare.
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It is the first yellowish saber in any of the major movies, right? Episodes I-IX, Rogue One, and Solo. Not a single saber except Red, Blue, Green, and Purple(Windu).
I don't recall any showing up in the movies, but Jedi Temple Guards used yellow-bladed lightsaber pikes in some Clone Wars and Rebels episodes.
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Old 12-21-2019, 09:54 PM
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Okay I saw it again today are the different set of people. For some reason I liked it better the second time. I think there is just way too much to process in that film the first time you watch it. I was able to relax and it emotionally resonated with me more. I caught some things I didn't notice the first time and actually think it was quite clever how they handled a lot of it. I want to give it a eight out of ten but I'm not going to go crazy here we'll say 7 out of 10
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Old 12-21-2019, 11:53 PM
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I rewatched 7 & 8 to get ready for 9, and I could be less critical the second time. F'rinstance, I hated the casino planet first time 'round. I think the slickness (and unnecessary-ness) reminded me of the prequels.

But having already been surprised by it, then disappointed by it, and having condemned it, the second time I could just watch it and notice little interesting touches.

I'm sure I'd be the same with Number Nine. One more reason to take the wife asap (she didn't want to go to the UltraHumungoScreen 3D Thursday midnight show).

Last edited by digs; 12-21-2019 at 11:56 PM.
  #142  
Old 12-22-2019, 12:17 AM
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I don't think this has been mentioned yet--remember the Simpsons episode where they were making a Radioactive Man movie and had to finish production using old footage? I think the Leia scenes were for the most part done about as smoothly as that.
  #143  
Old 12-22-2019, 12:21 AM
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It is the first yellowish saber in any of the major movies, right? Episodes I-IX, Rogue One, and Solo. Not a single saber except Red, Blue, Green, and Purple(Windu).
Funnily enough, the original toy Lukes had yellow sabres.
  #144  
Old 12-22-2019, 12:21 AM
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I don't think this has been mentioned yet--remember the Simpsons episode where they were making a Radioactive Man movie and had to finish production using old footage?
Nope.

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I think the Leia scenes were for the most part done about as smoothly as that.
Explain further please.
  #145  
Old 12-22-2019, 12:25 AM
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Explain further please.
I believe this is the scene he's referring to.

I'd disagree with his assessment, though - I thought the Leia scenes were done well.
  #146  
Old 12-22-2019, 01:45 AM
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I don't think this has been mentioned yet--remember the Simpsons episode where they were making a Radioactive Man movie and had to finish production using old footage? I think the Leia scenes were for the most part done about as smoothly as that.
Itís too bad Mickey Rooney's passed as well. Otherwise, he could have been brought in to plug the gap.
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Old 12-22-2019, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
I don't think this has been mentioned yet--remember the Simpsons episode where they were making a Radioactive Man movie and had to finish production using old footage? I think the Leia scenes were for the most part done about as smoothly as that.
I agree - her scenes were painful. Every time she was onscreen, I found myself thinking either "Huh... I wonder where that line of dialog was originally supposed to be" or "Body double!"

Shoehorning her into the story was a wrongheaded decision in a movie full of them.

Last edited by Alessan; 12-22-2019 at 02:55 AM.
  #148  
Old 12-22-2019, 08:14 AM
Edward The Head is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
Look at this scene - still the gold standard - from Ep. 4, or this more recent sequence from Rogue One. There's a lot going on, but you can still see everything clearly, you know where everything is relative to everything else, and everything has a proper sense of scale: big things look big, small things look small. There's no need to create artificial excitement with blurring, jerky cameras and general chaos; instead, there's a sense of gracefulness, of elegance that just makes things even more thrilling. Plus, you can see the goddamn ships.
This is a problem I have with almost every new movie now a days. Too much jerkiness, I can never tell what the hell is going on in any fight.

Over all I liked the movie. It's not perfect, but it IS a Star Wars movie after all.

There were a couple of things that I found to be off. They shouldn't have given a strict time when the fleet was going to be moving. They could have just said, the fleet is getting ready to move, we need to go NOW! Instead they said, we have 16 hours to do all this.

All those ships at the end, they should have had them slowly show up a few at a time. Maybe have Poe's friend show up, and then a couple of others, and then shown all the rest of them. We knew they were coming and it would have been better then, hey we're all gonna die here, oh wait, a million others all show up at once.
  #149  
Old 12-22-2019, 08:17 AM
Quimby is offline
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I haven't read the thread yet but saw it last night and wow was it disappointing. First they basically under cut everything TLJ tries to do: instead of saying you know the Force belongs to everyone and the Jedi may have been a mistake, we are back to lineages and destinies. The Jedi and the Sith (with the Sith not being mentioned by name at all in this trilogy before now). Also they Poochied Rose back to her Home Planet and gave Finn a new girlfriend. TLJ has flaws but they undid the best things about it.

Then, they could have done anything they wanted with Poe but they made him into Han Solo lite. "Did I ever mention I was also a smuggler?"

The plot feels like it was a DM's first campaign adventure for an RPG. Go here, get this thing, this gives you a clue to the next place to get that thing and keep going until you find the Boss Monster. We even had Jedis become Clerics complete with a Cure Light Wounds spell.

Kylo's turn to the good seemed fast and forced.

It was a little simultaneously creepy and goofy how much they used Zombie Leia. And having the opening crawl start with "The Dead Speak!" was bad form.

Couldn't they have shown Nabbo somewhere? It was Palpatine's home world after all.

It wasn't all bad. I liked the space fights, a return to Endor, the Cameo voices in Rey's head, Lando was great, the shot of all the ships that came to fight (even if it made little sense given the previous movie). But this was the worst Star Wars film since Attack of the Clones.

I saw a joke image of the opening credit saying "Written and Directed by Reddit" and that seem more accurate than not.

Last edited by Quimby; 12-22-2019 at 08:18 AM.
  #150  
Old 12-22-2019, 10:10 AM
N9IWP is offline
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According to Wookieepedia, the moon that the Death Star II wreckage was on was Kef Bir (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kef_Bir) which is a different moon than the Forest moon with Ewoks.

Brian
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