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  #51  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:09 PM
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Do you have evidence of this?

10% of Sanders voters didn't vote for Clinton (...ot voting for Obama in 2008.

Frankly, Sanders' voters did well by Clinton. Sanders campaigned zealously for Clinton. ...
The weird thing you and others do on this board is you never, ever blame the ONLY person responsible for Clinton's loss...and that is Clinton herself. Instead it is all "Bernie Bros" despite all evidence to the contrary.

Bottom line, Bernie didn't lose anything for Clinton, he probably helped. Clinton sucked. She lost probably the easiest campaign to win in the history of political campaigns. She was the problem. But the party nominated her anyway .....
Ok, the biggest cause for Hillarys defeat was the Comey memo, according to 538. Then there was some poor strategic decisions by her campaign. BUT- the election was so damn close that yes, some experts think that Sanders voters staying home or voting 3rd party could have been a cause. But not the primary cause. The election was that close.

Sanders did campaign for Hillary- but very late, he stayed in, even after mathematically he was done. As in like tonite. Sanders should now concede= it's over. Sanders is barely winning Washington state even, now 34 to 30%.

Sanders supporters- among others- did enthusiastically pass on the Kremlin bots attacks on Hillary, that has been proven. In fact right now, his Bernie bros are attacking Biden on the fact Joe is mentally impaired, that's the new thing. That does nothing but help trump.

Get over this idea that "the party nominated her anyway". "The party" had little to do with it, it was the voters. The idea that the DNC is so all powerful they can magically get FOUR Million more voters voting for Hillary in the Primaries but can't magically get them in the general is nonsense. It's the Schrödinger DNC- powerful enough to mentally command millions of voters to vote for Hillary but so weak they can't do it again.

It's time for Sanders to man up, concede, and then ask his supporters to stop attacking Biden and get behind him.
  #52  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:16 PM
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It's time for Sanders to man up, concede, and then ask his supporters to stop attacking Biden and get behind him.
No.

If Sanders can still make Biden give concessions by staying in the race then Sanders should stay in the race.

Even when you are "out" of contention if you can still shape the political landscape there is value there.

Personally I really, really, really do not want Biden to get a free ride from here on out. Anything that can be done to modify Biden's colossally bad voting record is worthwhile in my view.

And Biden might meltdown between now and the convention. Biden is known for his gaffes and he seems worse than ever lately (see SDMB discussions on whether Biden is suffering from dementia).
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 03-10-2020 at 10:19 PM.
  #53  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:19 PM
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No.

If Sanders can still make Biden give concessions by staying in the race then Sanders should stay in the race.
...
Yes, "concessions" as in- we concede the white house to trump for four more years.

That's what you're gonna get.
  #54  
Old 03-11-2020, 12:40 AM
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Yes, "concessions" as in- we concede the white house to trump for four more years.

That's what you're gonna get.
That is the DNC game? Trump is so bad we only need to put up someone just a little less bad?

Can't say I am a fan of that.
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  #55  
Old 03-11-2020, 01:04 AM
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That is the DNC game? Trump is so bad we only need to put up someone just a little less bad?

Can't say I am a fan of that.
Biden is not in any way, shape, or form "a little less bad" than Trump. I'm not even a fan, but the fact is that Biden actually cares about this country, is not a psychopath, doesn't have narcissistic personality disorder, actually has an IQ above 100, knows when to delegate, isn't a bigot who is okay with putting children in cages, actually respects our democracy, and so on.

Trump is in a class of his own, being worse than the stereotypical villain in an 80s movie. He's further away from all other presidents than the differences between Republicans and Democrats.

The idea here is to run someone that middle America would feel comfortable voting for. They're the swing voters. The youth couldn't get off their asses and vote in the primaries, showing that their finally choosing to vote isn't a viable strategy to unseat Trump. So what's left is to appeal to even conservatives who hate Trump.

I had hoped that Bernie would have more enthusiasm than Joe. But he didn't--not when push came to shove.

This is not the race to be trying to be pushing your own agenda, same as 2016 wasn't. Bernie did that then, and it was one of many things that lost the election. I actually checked at one point, and, if my math was correct, if all of the people who voted Green in Florida voted for Clinton instead, she would have been president. It was that close.

Do I sound fired up? I am. Because we need enthusiasm to beat this. Enthusiasm is what wins elections. Not attacking each other because your favorite candidate didn't win. Not pushing conspiracies. We need to unite together and stop Trump and the Republicans from destroying our country.

And, let me be clear, I was ready to say this exact same thing to Biden supporters just a couple weeks ago. And I did, in the Pit.

Last edited by BigT; 03-11-2020 at 01:04 AM.
  #56  
Old 03-11-2020, 01:19 AM
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No.

If Sanders can still make Biden give concessions by staying in the race then Sanders should stay in the race.

Even when you are "out" of contention if you can still shape the political landscape there is value there.

Personally I really, really, really do not want Biden to get a free ride from here on out. Anything that can be done to modify Biden's colossally bad voting record is worthwhile in my view.

And Biden might meltdown between now and the convention. Biden is known for his gaffes and he seems worse than ever lately (see SDMB discussions on whether Biden is suffering from dementia).
Shitbag Sanders has less than zero political power right now, it’s not even worth Biden’s time to mock him.
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  #57  
Old 03-11-2020, 03:18 AM
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Shitbag Sanders has less than zero political power right now, it’s not even worth Biden’s time to mock him.
Some of us value beating Trump more than settling scores with other liberals or progressives, and thus I hope that Biden will take action to maximize the chances of ensuring Bernie supporters vote for him in the general election.
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  #58  
Old 03-11-2020, 06:58 AM
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No.

If Sanders can still make Biden give concessions by staying in the race then Sanders should stay in the race.

Even when you are "out" of contention if you can still shape the political landscape there is value there.
You can’t “shape” diddly shit IF YOU AREN’T IN THE FUCKING WHITE HOUSE TO BEGIN WITH, which is what WILL happen IF Bernie and/or his wankfans spend the next months (or even weeks) tearing down Joe to “get” some “concessions.”

(Once more, with feeling: I say this as a true fan of Bernie and his proposals. I want nearly all og them to happen. Some of them will, at least to an extent — eventually, more of them - BUT ONLY IF TRUMP LOSES IN NOVEMBER).

Last edited by JKellyMap; 03-11-2020 at 07:01 AM.
  #59  
Old 03-11-2020, 07:11 AM
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That is the DNC game? Trump is so bad we only need to put up someone just a little less bad?

Can't say I am a fan of that.
The fact that you think Biden is only a little less bad is a good reason to flush your political wisdom down the toilet. The people have spoken. I can't imagine what concessions you expect wrung out from Bernie's current position.

Last edited by CarnalK; 03-11-2020 at 07:11 AM.
  #60  
Old 03-11-2020, 07:13 AM
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No.

If Sanders can still make Biden give concessions by staying in the race then Sanders should stay in the race.

Even when you are "out" of contention if you can still shape the political landscape there is value there.
Yeah, value for Trump. Just like in 2016.

I'm no fan of Biden - not by a long shot. (I think I've made that extremely clear on this board!) But he's going to win the nomination, and the sooner we all get behind him, the more likely it is that he'll beat Trump in November.

I don't think there's any question that Bernie's continuing to run, thereby keeping the divisions in the Democratic coalition alive for months after Clinton's nomination was certain, contributed to Clinton's loss in 2016. If Bernie pulls that act a second time, knowing how it worked out the last time, then he's a fucking traitor.
  #61  
Old 03-11-2020, 07:25 AM
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Yeah, value for Trump. Just like in 2016.

I'm no fan of Biden - not by a long shot. (I think I've made that extremely clear on this board!) But he's going to win the nomination, and the sooner we all get behind him, the more likely it is that he'll beat Trump in November.

I don't think there's any question that Bernie's continuing to run, thereby keeping the divisions in the Democratic coalition alive for months after Clinton's nomination was certain, contributed to Clinton's loss in 2016. If Bernie pulls that act a second time, knowing how it worked out the last time, then he's a fucking traitor.
I doubt Bernie dropping out now would help at all. In 2016 Bernie started kind of slow but started doing better and better, even if he never got the majority. That doesn't appear to be the case now -- he started fast and is doing worse and worse. I think the best way to demonstrate that primary voters prefer Biden to Bernie is for Biden to earn his majority, contest by contest. Then Bernie endorses him, and hopefully Biden gives something to appeal to Bernie supporters (like a VP pick well-liked by Bernie supporters). Like it or not, Bernie supporters are a big chunk of voters, and especially important for the future of the party, and IMO it's very important for the party to do everything it can to bring them in rather than blowing them off.
  #62  
Old 03-11-2020, 07:31 AM
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Love him or hate him (or you think he’s okay), Michael Moore last night soberly expressed (in this three minute interview) the situation for Bernie and his ideas. He reflects on how many Michigan (and other) voters are just tired, and can’t stand another day of Trump. He also cautions us to avoid demonizing the young, who will help bring Bernie’s crucial ideas to fruition in coming years

Last edited by JKellyMap; 03-11-2020 at 07:35 AM.
  #63  
Old 03-11-2020, 07:36 AM
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Biden is known for his gaffes and he seems worse than ever lately (see SDMB discussions on whether Biden is suffering from dementia).
If this is an example of staying in the race to get concessions out of Biden then Sanders should just get out of the race.
  #64  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:06 AM
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I tend to think it's OK for Bernie to stay in for another round of contests, just to keep the enthusiasm of his supporters up even though the writing is on the wall.

But he really really needs to stop feeding the same bullshit that Trump is spreading. When his supporters are passing around the same viral videos and making the same comments about "fatigue" and vague accusations of mental decline it's not at all helpful. He should be pushing back against that bullshit. Hopefully at their debate this weekend he will do that. Bernie should look at this debate as an opportunity to unite the party, make the case for progressive action, and praise his supporters for the work they've done. Give Biden a chance to explain areas where his past votes have been wrong, but don't try to bash his head in and make Trump's points for him. I hope Bernie has the wisdom and character to do that...

Barring an unexpected catastrophe, Biden will be the nominee. At this point anything Bernie does that weakens him helps Donald Trump get re-elected.
  #65  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:31 AM
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I agree with Whack-a-Mole.
At the start of the campaign, I was leaning towards Sanders, however I thought it was a very strong Democratic field and I would happily support any of the candidates.

But during the campaign and debates, I got serious concerns about Biden who kept going on these crazy rants which were not just utterly incoherent, but showed an astonishing lack of composure. Like, an ordinary member of the public makes a mild criticism, maybe even just asks him a question, and he goes bananas. It got to the point where every time he takes the mic I'm watching through my fingers.

I will support Biden when he's the nominee, of course, but I really think the party has screwed up; we've nominated the one person who is not able to beat Trump in a head-to-head debate (OK, Bloomberg maybe not either, but that's not so clear-cut), and who is going to make one "gaffe" too many between now and November.

Well, at least you guys can again blame it on Sanders.
  #66  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:39 AM
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If Sanders can't win the Dem nomination, where he has a lot of agreement on the issues, why in the world would you think he'd be the stronger candidate in the general? It would have been better if neither Sanders nor Biden had runand give new blood a chance. But they didn't and I think the party made the right choice between them.
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Old 03-11-2020, 10:40 AM
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I actually agree with Mijin about Biden’s greatest liability as a campaigner. I, too, will be biting my nails over this for the next however many months.

But (clearly) I disagree that this was a reason to nominate Sanders. IF Biden can avoid major missteps due to the tendencies Mijin described, he can win. Bernie, however, cannot win (barring a HUGE Trump crisis, which is very unlikely even if the coronavirus and its economic effects are really bad).

Do I have to cite my Wisconsin neighbors again? I think not. Some of you get it.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 03-11-2020 at 10:41 AM.
  #68  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:41 AM
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Biden reminds me of a movie. Sadly that movie is Plan 9 from Outer Space.
  #69  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:42 AM
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Biden reminds me of a movie. Sadly that movie is Plan 9 from Outer Space.
And so the re-election of Trump begins. Thanks a lot for destroying the world. I’m serious.

ETA: If you’re just confining such critiques to forums where you’re pretty sure everyone will vote for Biden anyway, that’s okay. Or if you qualify them with a “...but vote for him anyway,” okay. Otherwise, ENOUGH. Save it for the day after Election Day, when Chevy Chase can reprise his Ford routine on SNL (isn’t he about Biden’s age?).

Last edited by JKellyMap; 03-11-2020 at 10:47 AM.
  #70  
Old 03-11-2020, 11:02 AM
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Anybody should be free to criticize any candidate. And I disagree that such criticizers, even when using a mocking tone, are responsible for that candidate failing to win an election.
Any failings Biden has are going to be dragged out ad infinitum in the coming months, let's not kid ourselves about that. It's useless trying to hide those things, what we should be aiming to do is shine a light everywhere: on all of Trump's appalling words and actions and on memes like "Trump's done the best job on the economy EVA!"
  #71  
Old 03-11-2020, 11:21 AM
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If Sanders can still make Biden give concessions by staying in the race then Sanders should stay in the race.
Sanders is rapidly losing the clout to get Biden to make concessions. Consider:

He got 23,000 fewer votes in Michigan than he did in 2016

80,000 fewer votes in Missouri

150,000 fewer votes in N. Carolina

800,000 fewer votes in California (still not all the votes in yet)

Eight percentage points lower in Virginia

Seven percentage points lower in South Carolina

And at this point he's far behind the pace he set in Washington state

After last week, I felt that if Bernie won Michigan and Washington state, he'd get a second wind. Not only is that not happening, but you can make the argument that Bernie is becoming less popular than he was four years ago. Not a strong bargaining position.
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Old 03-11-2020, 11:23 AM
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all those things Sanders is using against Biden now will be used by Trump , plus a lot more. For example all the Ukraine stuff is not being used by Sanders from what I've seen. Doesn't matter if it is true or not, Trump will use it.

I might have to get drunk to vote for Biden but it's OK since I can walk to my voting place. Or maybe stagger.
  #73  
Old 03-11-2020, 11:25 AM
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Mijin, I get what you’re saying, but I disagree. The margins are too close, the stakes too high.

If Bernie were the clear nominee at this point (let’s say, in Biden’s position, in terms of delegates, momentum, etc.), I would start refraining from critiquing Bernie, now. What’s the point? None! I’d be biting my nails over lots of things that make it likely that many of my purple-state neighbors not vote for him, but in any and all fora where a persuadable voter might be listening, I’d be praising him to the heavens.

What’s there to lose by doing this — and what’s there to gain by CRITIQUING him in such fora? Does it make you look cool or something? I genuinely don’t get what the point is of that.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 03-11-2020 at 11:26 AM.
  #74  
Old 03-11-2020, 11:28 AM
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That is the DNC game? Trump is so bad we only need to put up someone just a little less bad?

Can't say I am a fan of that.
No, it's the voters game. I dont work for the DNC.

The Bernie bros need to get over this crazy idea that the DNC mind controls the voters.

And it doesnt matter anymore. It's over... Sanders has lost. Biden has won.

Attacks on Biden wont help sanders win, because...sanders has lost- overwhelmingly. The voters have spoken.
  #75  
Old 03-11-2020, 11:30 AM
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If Sanders primary motivation is to advance his progressive agenda, here is what in my opinion he should do. First stop all attacks against Biden. Biden should no longer be presented as a demented warmonger in the pocket of big business. Instead he should be presented as what he is, a worthy opponent who has different approach to how to achieve progressive ideals but is light years better than Trump. Sanders should not however (and I say this as someone who opposes his nomination) completely drop out of the race. His campaign should be refocused not at getting him nominated but at getting as many of his delegates as possible to attend the convention, and so work to transform the Democratic party from the inside. Worded this way he might actually get more votes. There are a lot of people who support his agenda, but are deeply concerned about his ability to beat Trump if he were the nominee. They might be willing to vote for his delegates even if they may not want to vote for him.
  #76  
Old 03-11-2020, 11:31 AM
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... Biden is known for his gaffes and he seems worse than ever lately (see SDMB discussions on whether Biden is suffering from dementia).

Yes, the idea that Biden is suffering from dementia or whatever is a rumor spread 100% by Bernie bros. It has no basis in truth. Based upon the same evidence, we could say bernie is senile- after all, he is older.

It's over. The Fat Lady (Michigan) has sung.
  #77  
Old 03-11-2020, 11:34 AM
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From now until November, instead of publicly critiquing Biden, if you want to impress someone you have the hots for with your rebel-socialist credentials, go join the civil warriors down in the Republic of San Marcos.
  #78  
Old 03-11-2020, 11:35 AM
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all those things Sanders is using against Biden now will be used by Trump , plus a lot more. For example all the Ukraine stuff is not being used by Sanders from what I've seen. Doesn't matter if it is true or not, Trump will use it.
The difference is that if Trump says it any true blue progressive will rightly dismiss the allegation out of hand. But if it comes from savior Bernie himself they may believe it and vote 3rd party of stay home.
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Old 03-11-2020, 11:36 AM
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Well, now, I agree about her "likeability" factor. Don't like her myself, but not necessarily due to her political stance. Not much different than her husband, and I like him, even if I don't entirely trust him.

However, let it be dully noted, she did win that utterly irrelevant part where more people actually voted for her.
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Old 03-11-2020, 11:41 AM
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Well, now, I agree about her "likeability" factor. Don't like her myself, but not necessarily due to her political stance. Not much different than her husband, and I like him, even if I don't entirely trust him.

However, let it be dully noted, she did win that utterly irrelevant part where more people actually voted for her.
Took me a while to figure out you were describing Hillary Clinton, circa May 2016. I think. (Perhaps this was intended for a different thread?)

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  #81  
Old 03-11-2020, 12:19 PM
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HOW does Sanders best gain more power and influence for the movement from here?

I’d WAG that going hard negative at this point, when it is clear he has no path left to winning, DECREASES power and the position of the movement within the party. Campaigning further in a unity mode, emphasizing the shared goals not only of defeating Trump, but of universal health coverage, decreased wealth inequality, addressing climate change, so on, advocating for his preferred approach but acknowledging that the goals are shared ones and in stark contrast to what Trump and the GOP is doing, keeps the issues as the priorities of all of the party. It, not tearing at the nominee, builds influence and keeps the voters that support him involved, to win more power from the ground up over midterms to come and beyond.
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Old 03-11-2020, 12:23 PM
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Surprised Trump or 3rd party groups or both have not gone after Biden in a major way yet. Maybe they feel it's best to hold their fire until the Dem convention and after .
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Old 03-11-2020, 12:25 PM
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Yes, the idea that Biden is suffering from dementia or whatever is a rumor spread 100% by Bernie bros. It has no basis in truth. Based upon the same evidence, we could say bernie is senile- after all, he is older.
People are speculating about his mental state because of his bizarre, incoherent rants, and how badly they compare to his performance even as recently as the end of Obama's terms.

Very obviously right-wing media is also attacking Biden over this. Trying to suggest it was all started by the bernie bros, let alone the implication that no-one would have any doubts about Biden's cognition otherwise is beyond ludicrous.

But I would see it this way: in this context, it doesn't even matter whether he has dementia, or just has dreadful oratory and public interaction skill for some other reason.
Either way it's going to be a painful few months hoping he doesn't completely put his foot in it.
That's not the way I want to feel going into an election.

Last edited by Mijin; 03-11-2020 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 03-11-2020, 12:26 PM
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Surprised Trump or 3rd party groups or both have not gone after Biden in a major way yet. Maybe they feel it's best to hold their fire until the Dem convention and after .
Some GOP senators are talking about Hunter Biden and Burisma again. I wouldn't be surprised if right after the Dem Convention that Hunter gets a subpoena in order to derail and paint his father as corrupt.
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Old 03-11-2020, 12:26 PM
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the convention is still 4 months away so Biden has plenty of time to screw up or even have a big health issue.
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Old 03-11-2020, 01:16 PM
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I'd say 502 has the lock right now.
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Old 03-11-2020, 03:48 PM
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Sure, but who will Trump's opponent be?
Well said!
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Old 03-15-2020, 03:23 PM
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I agree with all of this.

Those who realize the danger we are in if Trump continues in office, are able to put aside the self-centered desire to have a candidate we find to be perfect. I don't find Biden to be perfect but that doesn't stop me from seeing that he has a far greater chance than Sanders of beating Trump (and that as President he will be a massive improvement on Trump).

This isn't the time for toddleresque demands that the candidate "make us feel" any particular way ('inspired' or 'heard' or 'empowered' or whatever theory the Kremlin is pushing at the moment as a reason to avoid voting for the guy best able to win).

This is a time to:
  • realize that a vote is a tool we use to get as close as possible to what we want, and
  • put aside self-important demands that the DNC behave a certain way or that the candidate flatter and court us, and
  • accept that making the perfect the enemy of the good is an extremely stupid strategy for getting through the challenges ahead.
I had you pegged wrong.

I didn't think you would come around to this position until it was too late.
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Old 03-15-2020, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Do you have evidence of this?

10% of Sanders voters didn't vote for Clinton (and a lot of that 10% were likely crossover voters who would never have voted for Clinton even if Sanders was not in the race). Compare that to 25% of Clinton voters not voting for Obama in 2008.

Frankly, Sanders' voters did well by Clinton. Sanders campaigned zealously for Clinton. On the other hand she pretty much tried to screw Sanders on this go.

The weird thing you and others do on this board is you never, ever blame the ONLY person responsible for Clinton's loss...and that is Clinton herself. Instead it is all "Bernie Bros" despite all evidence to the contrary.
I have always blamed Hillary for her loss. But people always seem to try and make some excuse for her loss from sexism to the electoral college.

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Bottom line, Bernie didn't lose anything for Clinton, he probably helped. Clinton sucked. She lost probably the easiest campaign to win in the history of political campaigns. She was the problem. But the party nominated her anyway and I think we are seeing it again with Biden who pretty much is Clinton 2.0 (frankly more a Beta version...I would much rather have Clinton than Biden).
If Biden had run last time, he would have beaten Trump. He just couldn't get past the Clinton machine.

Biden has actual experience winning elections, Clinton has never won a competitive election.
Biden isn't running on identity politics like Clinton did.
Biden doesn't have the same limousine liberal aura that Clinton does.
Biden doesn't think he is headed towards a coronation.

Anything can happen and it's too early to blame Bernie for a Biden loss but we will have to wait and see if he (and his supporters) is part of the solution or part of the problem.
  #90  
Old 03-15-2020, 03:58 PM
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Ok, the biggest cause for Hillarys defeat was the Comey memo, according to 538. Then there was some poor strategic decisions by her campaign. BUT- the election was so damn close that yes, some experts think that Sanders voters staying home or voting 3rd party could have been a cause. But not the primary cause. The election was that close.

Sanders did campaign for Hillary- but very late, he stayed in, even after mathematically he was done. As in like tonite. Sanders should now concede= it's over. Sanders is barely winning Washington state even, now 34 to 30%.

Sanders supporters- among others- did enthusiastically pass on the Kremlin bots attacks on Hillary, that has been proven. In fact right now, his Bernie bros are attacking Biden on the fact Joe is mentally impaired, that's the new thing. That does nothing but help trump.

Get over this idea that "the party nominated her anyway". "The party" had little to do with it, it was the voters. The idea that the DNC is so all powerful they can magically get FOUR Million more voters voting for Hillary in the Primaries but can't magically get them in the general is nonsense. It's the Schrödinger DNC- powerful enough to mentally command millions of voters to vote for Hillary but so weak they can't do it again.

It's time for Sanders to man up, concede, and then ask his supporters to stop attacking Biden and get behind him.
The DNC conspired and schemed to help Hillary and hurt Bernie.
The "I'm with HER" crowd cheated to help Hillary.

Maybe that wasn't the difference in the general election but it's pretty hard to support the winner if they cheated, even if they didn't have to cheat to do it. or maybe its "especially if they didn't have to cheat to do it" See Astros.
  #91  
Old 03-15-2020, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
No.

If Sanders can still make Biden give concessions by staying in the race then Sanders should stay in the race.
And thereby force him into positions that would make him less electable in the general election?

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Even when you are "out" of contention if you can still shape the political landscape there is value there.
No. No there isn't. Not if the goal is winning the general election rather than changing the platform of the losing party.

Quote:
Personally I really, really, really do not want Biden to get a free ride from here on out. Anything that can be done to modify Biden's colossally bad voting record is worthwhile in my view.
What makes his voting record collosally bad?

So he was against federally mandating busing. A policy so unpopular that noone does it anymore.

Quote:
And Biden might meltdown between now and the convention. Biden is known for his gaffes and he seems worse than ever lately (see SDMB discussions on whether Biden is suffering from dementia).
What makes you think that one of the other moderate candidates won't suddenly see a revival of their campaign if Biden blows up? Bloomberg can certainly swoop in at any moment.
  #92  
Old 03-15-2020, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
The DNC conspired and schemed to help Hillary and hurt Bernie.
The "I'm with HER" crowd cheated to help Hillary.

Maybe that wasn't the difference in the general election but it's pretty hard to support the winner if they cheated, even if they didn't have to cheat to do it. or maybe its "especially if they didn't have to cheat to do it" See Astros.
Gee, the DNC gave Hillary the questions to one Debate in advance.

No "cheating".

Get over the "we wuz robbed". The voters came out overwhelmingly for Clinton.
  #93  
Old 03-15-2020, 05:31 PM
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Some of us value beating Trump more than settling scores with other liberals or progressives, and thus I hope that Biden will take action to maximize the chances of ensuring Bernie supporters vote for him in the general election.
I suspect that every Bernie voter you pick up in Swing states by pursuing Bernie supporters will alienate several swing voters in those states.
  #94  
Old 03-15-2020, 05:38 PM
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I doubt Bernie dropping out now would help at all. In 2016 Bernie started kind of slow but started doing better and better, even if he never got the majority. That doesn't appear to be the case now -- he started fast and is doing worse and worse. I think the best way to demonstrate that primary voters prefer Biden to Bernie is for Biden to earn his majority, contest by contest. Then Bernie endorses him, and hopefully Biden gives something to appeal to Bernie supporters (like a VP pick well-liked by Bernie supporters). Like it or not, Bernie supporters are a big chunk of voters, and especially important for the future of the party, and IMO it's very important for the party to do everything it can to bring them in rather than blowing them off.
Perhaps it would be a good idea for the primaries to run their course and for it to become clear that there is overwhelming support for Biden over Bernie.

But I don't think we give a damn thing to hostage takers. Either they want Trump out of office or they don't. If you have to be bribed to support getting rid of Trump then you don't deserve anything. Not a single goddam thing.
  #95  
Old 03-15-2020, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Perhaps it would be a good idea for the primaries to run their course and for it to become clear that there is overwhelming support for Biden over Bernie.

But I don't think we give a damn thing to hostage takers. Either they want Trump out of office or they don't. If you have to be bribed to support getting rid of Trump then you don't deserve anything. Not a single goddam thing.
I care about beating trump about a million times more than any notion of "deserve", in terms of "bribes" to political supporters (also known as "politics"). YMMV.
  #96  
Old 03-15-2020, 05:50 PM
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Well, now, I agree about her "likeability" factor. Don't like her myself, but not necessarily due to her political stance. Not much different than her husband, and I like him, even if I don't entirely trust him.

However, let it be dully noted, she did win that utterly irrelevant part where more people actually voted for her.
She had a 3 million popular vote majority. 5 million of that came California.

If Trump had focused on winning the popular vote rather than the actual election, who knows what the popular vote would have been. That is why the popular vote count is relatively meaningless.
  #97  
Old 03-15-2020, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Gee, the DNC gave Hillary the questions to one Debate in advance.

No "cheating".

Get over the "we wuz robbed". The voters came out overwhelmingly for Clinton.
You see where I said "Maybe that wasn't the difference in the general election but it's pretty hard to support the winner if they cheated, even if they didn't have to cheat to do it. or maybe its "especially if they didn't have to cheat to do it" See Astros."

Nobody wants to support the Astros and it may not be enough that they are playing the Yankees to get you to cheer for them.
  #98  
Old 03-15-2020, 06:02 PM
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Double Post

Last edited by Damuri Ajashi; 03-15-2020 at 06:03 PM.
  #99  
Old 03-15-2020, 06:03 PM
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I care about beating trump about a million times more than any notion of "deserve", in terms of "bribes" to political supporters (also known as "politics"). YMMV.
You're the one telling us that we have to appease the Bernie Bros.

The Millennials represent a minority of the Democratic party (and they will ALWAYS be a minority of the party). Yes we need them but we need the Boomers and Gen X just as much. We cannot let Millennials hold democracy hostage and coerce the rest of the party into pursuing a radical agenda. We don't need them any more than they need us and if they want to play chicken with this election to coerce the party with a tyranny of the minority, then screw them.

I don't care if Biden picks Bloomberg as his VP candidate, either you want Trump out of office or there is wiggle room on that for you.
  #100  
Old 03-15-2020, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I had you pegged wrong.

I didn't think you would come around to this position until it was too late.
Say what? I've been posting this sort of thing since 2016, at least (from my post, quoted in yours) :

Quote:
... This is a time to:
realize that a vote is a tool we use to get as close as possible to what we want ...
You must be confusing me for someone else if you believe this position is something I've come to recently.

Last edited by Sherrerd; 03-15-2020 at 06:10 PM.
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