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  #51  
Old 03-10-2020, 03:02 PM
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If all of the millions of voters who are supposedly going to show up to vote for Sanders on Election Day had bothered to show up for him these last two weeks, he'd be the front runner.

Biden supporters vote for Biden. Trump supporters vote for Trump. Sanders supporters complain about how other people didn't vote for Sanders.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 03-10-2020 at 03:04 PM.
  #52  
Old 03-10-2020, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MortSahlFan View Post
If you want to get rid of Trump, vote for Bernie.
What if Bernie is not on the November ballot? Just say.

Vote Joe?
Write in Bernie? (with a big red heart xoxo)
Vote Trump? (to teach those establishment dems a lesson)
Stay home?
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  #53  
Old 03-10-2020, 03:15 PM
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If you want to get rid of Trump, vote for Bernie.
If only his supporters would have done that in the primaries. But they didn't. And likely, that ship has sailed.
  #54  
Old 03-10-2020, 03:33 PM
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Who. When in doubt, 'Who.' Who, goldarn it.

Write 'who' when 'whom' is more correct, and nobody will notice. Do the reverse, however, and you come across as thinking you're better than your hard-working semi-literate red-neck neighbors, and are trying to sound like left-wing cosmopolitan elite.

That does it! I'm voting for Trump.
Overheard at a Trump rally.

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  #55  
Old 03-10-2020, 03:44 PM
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Yes he can beat Trump. And with his support among African-Americans, he's the most likely candidate to be able to beat Trump.
  #56  
Old 03-10-2020, 05:31 PM
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Listen to this recording of Trish Regan "explaining" that the markets would be doing just fine
I saw that elsewhere. I'm tempted to ask "Who the hell is Trish Regan?" as I have never heard of her before. But, in fact, I couldn't care less about someone who comes out with something like that as if it's a normal thought.
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if the media weren't conspiring to crap on Trump.
The very same media that gave him all the face-time and attention he needed in 2016 in order to make him "mainstream" enough to win an election he had no business being part of in the first place. Conservatives and "liberals" each have their complaints about the media, in general, but they come at it from completely different angles.
  #57  
Old 03-10-2020, 05:33 PM
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Yes he can beat Trump. And with his support among African-Americans, he's the most likely candidate to be able to beat Trump.
How do you figure he's going to do that? With his cheesy smile, references to his friend "Cornpop," and his 8 years as V.P. under our last real president?
  #58  
Old 03-10-2020, 05:40 PM
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I can't imagine what the media would say if Bernie told a voter he's full of shit.
  #59  
Old 03-10-2020, 06:55 PM
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How do you figure he's going to do that? With his cheesy smile, references to his friend "Cornpop," and his 8 years as V.P. under our last real president?
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...
To beat Trump is going to require huge turnout by Democrats. Not merely more votes than Trump, like Dems did last time, but huge turnout.
  #60  
Old 03-10-2020, 07:08 PM
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How are we being trolled? We get a Republican in office who does Republican things down the line, Supreme Court justices and the like, and Trump has trolled you guys so bad that you were close to nominating a socialist.
Trump trolled his supporters into thinking Mexico would pay for the wall, he would provide a great healthcare plan, coal is coming back, that America would be more respected, and that he would drain the swamp.

Our troops are paying for the wall, Trump doesnít even understand what health insurance is, coal is in its death throes, America is a laughingstock (world leaders even laugh in his face, for crying out loud), and Trump IS the swamp.

On second thought, your comment of Trump doing Republican things could be on-point if you include ďlying through oneís teeth at least once an hourĒ as a Republican value. It is theoretically possible that we are just talking past each other.
  #61  
Old 03-10-2020, 07:42 PM
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In my opinion, simply no, Biden cannot beat Trump in November. There's a lot of time til then so there's technically a few things that could happen to help his chances.
  #62  
Old 03-10-2020, 07:50 PM
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In my opinion, simply no, Biden cannot beat Trump in November.....
Is this just a hunch, or do have an opinion on how each of the swing states will go?
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  #63  
Old 03-10-2020, 07:51 PM
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Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...
To beat Trump is going to require huge turnout by Democrats. Not merely more votes than Trump, like Dems did last time, but huge turnout.
Exactly. I don't see him being inspiring enough to help get enough Dem voters out come November. I hope I'm wrong, but. . .
  #64  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:55 PM
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Exactly. I don't see him being inspiring enough to help get enough Dem voters out come November. I hope I'm wrong, but. . .
Its about the union states, the rust belt. Biden could take states like Michigan, like he did tonight from Trump. Penn, Ohio & Indiana. He has a legit shot at Florida too. Probably Wisconsin. Maybe Missouri. Some portion of these states will switch the results.

If he grabs just Indianna, Ohio & Pennsylvania he wins. This is not so hard.

My thoughts is with tonight's victory it is time for Biden to unite the party. Quietly meet with Sanders & Warren for them to pick a shortlist of acceptable Progressive VP picks so that they'll campaign hard to get their supporters out to vote the Dem Tickets and vote Trump the hell out. Sanders just lost Michigan where he beat HRC. He is pretty much done, make it easy for him to step out soon.
  #65  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:18 PM
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Who demonized Bernie's supporters and what were the charges?

The one complaint I've heard is that Bernie supporters might not vote D in November. And this charge is so insulting that Bernie supporters might respond by ... not voting D in November?
Chuck "my mom cuts my hair this way because it's easier for her to comb for me in the mornings" Todd called Bernie Bros "brownshirts" on the air. This Nazi reference came just before Chris Mathews likened Bernie's surge as a Nazi invasion.

On Reddit, they are being accused of personally attacking Warren and being in general uncouth and frothingly rabid, without any regard to the FBI stated fact that Russia has a concerted effort to troll as "Bernie Bros" to wreak chaos.

No sane Bernie supporters will vote against whoever the dem nom is. Sure they are headstrong and idealistic but they aren't going to let Trump win. On the other hand, I've heard a lot of Yang and Warren people swear an oath they will not vote for either Bernie nor Biden. So whatever little rumors we are all individually hearing, it goes in every direction with everyone's base.

Last edited by dontbesojumpy; 03-10-2020 at 10:19 PM.
  #66  
Old 03-10-2020, 11:23 PM
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Its about the union states, the rust belt. Biden could take states like Michigan, like he did tonight from Trump. Penn, Ohio & Indiana. He has a legit shot at Florida too. Probably Wisconsin. Maybe Missouri. Some portion of these states will switch the results.

If he grabs just Indianna, Ohio & Pennsylvania he wins. This is not so hard.

My thoughts is with tonight's victory it is time for Biden to unite the party. Quietly meet with Sanders & Warren for them to pick a shortlist of acceptable Progressive VP picks so that they'll campaign hard to get their supporters out to vote the Dem Tickets and vote Trump the hell out. Sanders just lost Michigan where he beat HRC. He is pretty much done, make it easy for him to step out soon.
I did the research earlier today - H.R.C. lost several states to Donny Drumpf that she won against Bernie so I don't think it makes much sense to try to project Gaffey Joe wins against Drumpf in states that he won against his Dem opponent.

Last edited by racepug; 03-10-2020 at 11:24 PM.
  #67  
Old 03-10-2020, 11:40 PM
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Here's what you tell disappointed Bernie Sanders supporters.

1. Regardless of what your feelings are about the other candidates, look at your feelings about Donald Trump. And then take the chance to vote him out of office.

2. Remind them that a lot of disappointed supporters of other candidates were willing to vote for Sanders when he was the front runner and looked like he would be the nominee.

3. If you feel both parties are broken, then take this chance to send a warning to them. Vote to remove somebody who has failed in order to remind other politicians, Democrats and Republicans, that they will be removed from office if they do a bad job.

4. Think about the future of the progressive movement. If young people decide to sit out this election, either by not voting or by voting for some third party, then both parties will ignore them. The only way you will affect the political process is if you participate in it.
5. If progressives do make significant gains in 2024/2028, their agenda is a lot less likely to be gutted by the courts if Trump hasn't had another four years to stack the judiciary with judges vetted by the Heritage Foundation and Federalist Society.
  #68  
Old 03-11-2020, 06:23 AM
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Is this just a hunch, or do have an opinion on how each of the swing states will go?
Yeah it's more of a hunch really. I would expect Biden to take a swing state or two, but expecting cyber Facebook warfare, dirty tricks by the GOP, Russia, the fact that I'm pretty sure Biden will do poorly in debates, the lack of enthusiasm for him from anybody on the left, etc. he is this year's Hillary imho.
  #69  
Old 03-11-2020, 09:57 AM
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I did the research earlier today - H.R.C. lost several states to Donny Drumpf that she won against Bernie so I don't think it makes much sense to try to project Gaffey Joe wins against Drumpf in states that he won against his Dem opponent.
I think a more relevant comparison is how Biden did vs Bernie compared to how Hillary did vs Bernie. In Michigan, Bernie beat Hillary, but Biden beat Bernie. Hillary lost Michigan to Trump super-narrowly. So Hillary barely lost Trump, and Michiganers prefer Biden over Bernie over Hillary, so...

Obviously doesn't prove anything, but it certainly seems like a reason to have some optimism.
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  #70  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:01 AM
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I did the research earlier today - H.R.C. lost several states to Donny Drumpf that she won against Bernie so I don't think it makes much sense to try to project Gaffey Joe wins against Drumpf in states that he won against his Dem opponent.
Your uncute nicknames are actually really dumb. Hard to treat the rest of what you type at all seriously.

Look at the 2008 & 2012 election vs 2016. Many states won by Obama & Biden that Hillary failed with. These are the states Biden can with the electoral college with.
  #71  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:42 AM
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Going back to the original question, can Biden beat Trump? I think that, under the right circumstances, he can. Will he? It's going to be tough, but if Bernie's the nominee, I think retaking the White House would be even tougher.
A significant part of the odds is the state of the economy. If there is a really bad recession this year, Trump's odds of re-election suffer badly. Much of the Trumpist argument for continued support has been based on the strong economy; the loss of that cannot help his turnout.

Contrary to what some people will say, the state of the economy doesn't guarantee the result; parties have retained the White House in poorer conditions and lost it in good conditions. But it definitely has an impact.

Since we do not know how that will shake out, making a solid prediction right now is impossible.

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Originally Posted by What Exit?
Look at the 2008 & 2012 election vs 2016. Many states won by Obama & Biden that Hillary failed with. These are the states Biden can with the electoral college with.
I mean, Biden doesn't have to pull off shocking wins like Obama did in 2008 with North Carolina. Just winning back the rust belt states Clinton shamefully lost means a 279-259 win:

https://www.270towin.com/maps/jbboo

Winning something like Florida isn't even necessary in that scenario, but it would mean the election would be called pretty early on.
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  #72  
Old 03-11-2020, 11:54 AM
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Yeah it's more of a hunch really. I would expect Biden to take a swing state or two, but expecting cyber Facebook warfare, dirty tricks by the GOP, Russia, the fact that I'm pretty sure Biden will do poorly in debates, the lack of enthusiasm for him from anybody on the left, etc. he is this year's Hillary imho.
But Sanders is this year's Sanders.

That's the problem with the Sanders argument. If Sanders can't beat Clinton or Biden, how are we supposed to believe he can beat Trump? Apparently it somehow involves enthusiasm and energy. But if those things exist and win elections, where have they been?
  #73  
Old 03-11-2020, 11:56 AM
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Yeah it's more of a hunch really. I would expect Biden to take a swing state or two, but expecting cyber Facebook warfare, dirty tricks by the GOP, Russia, the fact that I'm pretty sure Biden will do poorly in debates, the lack of enthusiasm for him from anybody on the left, etc. he is this year's Hillary imho.
All of this. You absolutely nailed it.
  #74  
Old 03-11-2020, 12:00 PM
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Yes but he needs to flip into general election mode now. The next set of contests is going to be even worse for Sanders so it's time Biden starts putting together a message to unite the party and the factions. Andrew Yang last night said in his private conversations with other candidates, no one showed more of a curiosity to hear about the Fourth Industrial Revolution message Yang was running on so it gives some hope that Biden isn't just running on a return to normalcy but to have a vision for his presidency. Biden also needs to start taking on leadership moments such as addressing the nation on Covid-19. From what I understand he was supposed to do that last night but his speech was so late into the night meant it was not going to be significant. Instead his speech was a typical well rehearsed victory speech.

Edit: Biden will be giving a speech on Covid-19 tomorrow I've just found out.

Last edited by Boycott; 03-11-2020 at 12:04 PM.
  #75  
Old 03-11-2020, 12:09 PM
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I voted for Warren. I am not furious and pouting that she didn't make it. Politics is about making sausage. Sad but true.

It is perfectly obvious now that Bernie would lose big to Trump. There is no possible imaginable path for him. Biden's path is nothing like as dubious. I don't feel confident but I also don't feel a sense of impending doom. Yet.

Those who want a revolution are always a minority, no matter what they want to believe.
  #76  
Old 03-11-2020, 03:38 PM
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Yes he can beat Trump. And with his support among African-Americans, he's the most likely candidate to be able to beat Trump.
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How do you figure he's going to do that? With his cheesy smile, references to his friend "Cornpop," and his 8 years as V.P. under our last real president?
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Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...
To beat Trump is going to require huge turnout by Democrats. Not merely more votes than Trump, like Dems did last time, but huge turnout.

I believe that you are missing my point, allow me to clarify. And by that I mean reoeat:
...with his support among African-Americans, he's the most likely candidate to be able to beat Trump.
  #77  
Old 03-11-2020, 03:48 PM
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"repeat"
(The pinnacle of redundancy, repeating repeat. Just ask Devo!)
  #78  
Old 03-11-2020, 04:53 PM
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I don't think Sanders stood a chance against Trump. Biden could do it.
  #79  
Old 03-11-2020, 06:29 PM
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But Sanders is this year's Sanders.

That's the problem with the Sanders argument. If Sanders can't beat Clinton or Biden, how are we supposed to believe he can beat Trump? Apparently it somehow involves enthusiasm and energy. But if those things exist and win elections, where have they been?
As Iíve said elsewhere, there are those who still believe that the DNC played an active role in suppressing or discouraging Sanders votes. So I think the logic is that once the establishment is unable to interfere, those voters will come surging in.
  #80  
Old 03-11-2020, 07:23 PM
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Biden might be able to beat Trump if Trump has a really bad game in terms of FB. It would be like Trump fumbling the ball away and throwing interceptions. That's probably Biden's main shot.
  #81  
Old 03-11-2020, 07:36 PM
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I know a lot of Bernie supporters that SAY they're choosing to vote for the green party because they don't feel Bernie got a fair shake.

I agree he didn't get a fair shake, but I don't want 4 more years of Trump. I hope this isn't another 2016 scenario. I'm really scared. I really hate how everyone on TV were working against Bernie, and I'm EXTREMELY discouraged. It's as if the Democratic establishment and the Republicans are two sides of the same coin. I almost feel like not voting at all... But more Trump is going to force my hand into voting, just like 2016. I can't take it anymore. It's not that I'm pissed because it's not 'MY GUY' that's running, it's that all these powerful forces made it extremely difficult for 'my guy' that gets to me.

Go ahead and gloat that Bernie probably won't win, that's just going to discourage people more. It's horse crap. How do I talk to the other Bernie supporters, and encourage them to vote Biden? I can't blame them for being mad. I'm mad. I don't want to have anything to do with this crud. The establishment wants me not to have a voice, so why bother?

If this were any other situation... I would say f it, and not vote. I'm saving my protests for another day. Another Supreme Court decision is the only reason I'm involving myself in the process.
I haven't even heard one bernie supporter say this in 2019 or 20.

I think it's a little bit of a slur to say this about Bernie. He has said he would support Biden. His priorities are much more transparent than almost anyone else this season.
  #82  
Old 03-11-2020, 07:37 PM
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Exactly. I don't see him being inspiring enough to help get enough Dem voters out come November. I hope I'm wrong, but. . .
Do you see Bernie as inspiring enough? He got fewer votes this year in Michigan, Missouri, N. Carolina, and California than he did in 2016.
  #83  
Old 03-11-2020, 07:39 PM
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As Iíve said elsewhere, there are those who still believe that the DNC played an active role in suppressing or discouraging Sanders votes. So I think the logic is that once the establishment is unable to interfere, those voters will come surging in.
Iím at a point that it seems that Sandersí most fervent supporters are similar to Trumpís fans: if something doesnít go his way, itís because it was rigged against him. Sanders is what the people want, and itís only the nebulous establishment thatís keeping him from power.

(They also remind me of Trump supporters in that they seem to want an all-powerful strongman to impose their favored policies, and support their candidate under the theory that ďonly he can get it done.Ē)
  #84  
Old 03-11-2020, 08:09 PM
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Yeah it's more of a hunch really. I would expect Biden to take a swing state or two, but expecting cyber Facebook warfare, dirty tricks by the GOP, Russia, the fact that I'm pretty sure Biden will do poorly in debates, the lack of enthusiasm for him from anybody on the left, etc. he is this year's Hillary imho.
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All of this. You absolutely nailed it.
You don't need legions of enthusiastic Biden boosters if you have an army of enthusiastic Trump bashers. Normally "I'm not that guy" is about the worst platform to run on imaginable. But these aren't normal times and this is much more a referendum election than is typical.

I mean Biden was near the bottom of my list as well( ironically I would have much preferred him in 2016 and I think he would have won ). Though admittedly slightly ahead of Sanders, who I also have issues with. They both mildly( not wildly )suck as far as I'm concerned . But I'll vote for Biden with an "enthusiastic" shrug and a 'meh', because I'd vote for a rotting slab of meatloaf if it would remove Trump.

All you need is enough people like me and Biden's lack of oratory skills become a lot less impactful.

Do I think Biden can beat Trump? Yes. Because I believe most Democrats could beat Trump. And I include Biden with that most( I think Sanders would have longer odds personally, but even he would have had a shot ).

Last edited by Tamerlane; 03-11-2020 at 08:10 PM.
  #85  
Old 03-11-2020, 08:09 PM
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Biden might be able to beat Trump if Trump has a really bad game in terms of FB. It would be like Trump fumbling the ball away and throwing interceptions. That's probably Biden's main shot.
So Trump would be the Jameis Winston of candidates.
  #86  
Old 03-11-2020, 08:25 PM
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Do you see Bernie as inspiring enough? He got fewer votes this year in Michigan, Missouri, N. Carolina, and California than he did in 2016.
It's hard to win as a dem for potus without an excited base. No, actually it hasn't ever happened in our lifetimes. And Joe is going to be losing some of his base to the coronavirus. I hope you're excited enough for everyone.
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Old 03-11-2020, 08:34 PM
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I donít really think of people going nuts to vote for Bill Clinton. I mean, a lot of people liked him and his speeches, but he didnít have that rock star reception that Obama got, for sure.
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Old 03-11-2020, 08:47 PM
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I donít really think of people going nuts to vote for Bill Clinton. I mean, a lot of people liked him and his speeches, but he didnít have that rock star reception that Obama got, for sure.
He probably would have lost if not for Perot.
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Old 03-11-2020, 09:06 PM
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Biden is looking for voters who don't like him to be corrupt and mean, like us. But if his opponent has voters who actually like that and vote in favor of it, then what kind of success do you foresee by being real mean to turmp and accusing him of bad things? He is going to point at joe and say he is the same as me.

If you think it's obvious that they aren't the same, it is, but that only applies to this safe space we are in now.
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Old 03-11-2020, 09:07 PM
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It's hard to win as a dem for potus without an excited base. No, actually it hasn't ever happened in our lifetimes. And Joe is going to be losing some of his base to the coronavirus. I hope you're excited enough for everyone.
So Biden supporters will all die off and Bernie supporters won't come out to vote?
  #91  
Old 03-11-2020, 09:13 PM
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Heh! The is just the break Tulsi’s been waiting for.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 03-11-2020 at 09:14 PM.
  #92  
Old 03-11-2020, 09:29 PM
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After Trump’s speech tonight, it should be obvious even to Republicans that Trump is not fit for office. My biggest fear now is not whether or not Biden can beat Trump, which I think he almost certainly will. My fear now is that we, meaning not just Americans but all humans, will have some terrible luck and that Biden will catch the Coronavirus. Short of that, I think Trump has no chance.

Last edited by FlikTheBlue; 03-11-2020 at 09:29 PM.
  #93  
Old 03-12-2020, 01:13 AM
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Ok, what are the big things that cost Hillary that very close election?

1. The Comey memo. Wont be one for Joe. Trump can try to blow the Hunter thing up, but Americans by and large arent buying it.

2. Poor Campaign strategy, not spending and campaigning enough in purple states. I am sure the Joe's people wont make this mistake.

3. Being disliked. People just like Joe. He is likable.

4. The Kremlin and the Bernie-bros ceaseless attacks on Hillary, many of them false. That will happen again. That is happening now. Some chance of Sanders reining his supporters in. The earlier Sanders concedes the less damage will be done.

Somewhat new thing:

5. The GOP's relentless crusade to disenfranchise minority voters under the guise of "voting fraud". This will hurt, no doubt.

So, with 1, 2 & 3, not a issue, what we gotta worry about is 4 &5, but to some extent these are controlable.

Biden can win. Sanders could have won also, but it would have been harder. #4 of course would be entirely different. And a #6 : What the HELL does the kremlin have on Bernie that they want him to be the candidate vs their boy trump?



That one worries me. But it's doubtful Bernie will be the candidate @ 99-1.
  #94  
Old 03-12-2020, 01:15 AM
Lantern is offline
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Trump is a weak candidate whose approval is at 42% and who Biden beats by 11 points in the latest poll. The race may narrow and is already close in the swing states but there is no reason to be unduly pessimistic. Biden has the edge for now and the big uncertainties going forward from coronavirus/economy are probably to Trump's disadvantage.
  #95  
Old 03-12-2020, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
1. The Comey memo. Wont be one for Joe. Trump can try to blow the Hunter thing up, but Americans by and large arent buying it.
You really think that none of the law enforcement agencies packed with Trump appointees will fail come up with something for Joe?
  #96  
Old 03-12-2020, 10:34 AM
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Do you see Bernie as inspiring enough? He got fewer votes this year in Michigan, Missouri, N. Carolina, and California than he did in 2016.
I was for Elizabeth Warren. I was for her in 2016. Neither Gaffey Joe nor "Socialist" Bernie do much for me (although I did prefer Bernie to H.R.C. last time). But I'd vote for a rotting porcupine carcass before I'd ever vote for Lid'l' Donny Drumpf (or anybody else like him) for Prez.
  #97  
Old 03-12-2020, 10:38 AM
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After Trumpís speech tonight, it should be obvious even to Republicans that Trump is not fit for office. My biggest fear now is not whether or not Biden can beat Trump, which I think he almost certainly will. My fear now is that we, meaning not just Americans but all humans, will have some terrible luck and that Biden will catch the Coronavirus. Short of that, I think Trump has no chance.
According to my wife even the National Review and the Washington Examiner - both usually very quick to defend this fraud of a president that we have - ripped into the Mango Idiot yesterday for his "crisis response." Maybe that'll make some kind of difference but I'm not holding my breath on that count.
  #98  
Old 03-12-2020, 10:41 AM
racepug is offline
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Originally Posted by Lantern View Post
Trump is a weak candidate whose approval is at 42% and who Biden beats by 11 points in the latest poll. The race may narrow and is already close in the swing states but there is no reason to be unduly pessimistic. Biden has the edge for now and the big uncertainties going forward from coronavirus/economy are probably to Trump's disadvantage.
Angry Lid'l' Donny is an extremely weak candidate. Always was; always would've been; always will be (and leave it to Republicans to come up with a candidate like that - that moron never would've made it on the Dem side of things in a million years). That didn't help Dems last time out. We'll see if 2020 is different.
  #99  
Old 03-12-2020, 01:46 PM
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To answer the OP, according to the polling, I believe Biden can beat Trump. That doesn't mean he will, and I think Bernie would be a stronger candidate. But Biden has the lead right now, in polling and in delegates. If everyone who strongly opposes Trump votes for Biden, he'll win easily. Hopefully all these folks will come out and vote, even the ones (like me) who would be disappointed we didn't nominate Bernie.
My impression, at a safe distance, is that Sanders has too much of the Hillary factor, meaning that there are people who actively dislike him. I don't know a lot about either candidate, so pardon my stunning ignorance, but it looks to me as if a safely bland and moderate candidate such as Biden has a better chance of getting the Republicans who ware having second thoughts about the monster they elected in 2016 but won't go for a more radical left-wing candidate such as Sanders.

It's up to the voters to decide who is to be the candidate. But I wold bet serious money that Biden could beat Trump, even if narrowly. But narrowly is enough, as G. W. Bush and Trump could tell you. I would also bet that Sanders would fail, and probably by a wider margin. But that's only my best guess.
  #100  
Old 03-12-2020, 01:52 PM
Bijou Drains is offline
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Biden reminds me of a character in a favorite show. The Robot in Lost in Space, the 60s version not the new one.
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