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  #51  
Old 03-22-2020, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
(ETA: Actually, the numbers simply appear to be, in a 4 player game, 35% win chance for the first person to grab a hold of a continent, and 40% if that continent is Australia. So the game theory here with me is, most folks know about Australia and there's usually some bloodbath going on there, so I try to get South America if it looks like there's just going to be a free-for-all there.)
With the Australia strategy the goal is to merely last a long time. The likelihood of the game being called without a winner is quite high.
  #52  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:14 AM
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For modern games that I've played more than once I'd have to agree with Machi Koro. Even with the expansion (maybe there are others but I'm talking about the one where it can potentially increase the roll to 2D6), it is possible to get into a situation where it is highly unlikely that you will be able to move ahead, only halfway through the game, if your opponent has all the numbers you have and additional ones as well.
  #53  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:39 AM
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The original version of Machi Koro is pretty bad. But the first expansion introduced new set-up rules which greatly improved the game.
I keep hearing this. I wish it had been a free update.
  #54  
Old 03-22-2020, 10:22 AM
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For a couple of serious answers, Martian Chess, invented by Edgar Rice Burroughs, and that weird checkers game with the multi-level plastic board invented for Star Trek: The Next Generation. The Star Trek one, either side can trivially easily force a draw, and nobody can ever win, unless their opponent does something colossally stupid. The Martian one, though, actually manages to be even worse: Not only can both sides easily force a draw, but if your opponent isn't willing to draw but you are, you can trivially easily force a win.
Well, if we're talking about games invented for fiction, Quidditch is an incredibly dumb sport.
  #55  
Old 03-22-2020, 12:38 PM
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With the Australia strategy the goal is to merely last a long time. The likelihood of the game being called without a winner is quite high.
Oh, we always played to the bitter end, no matter if it needed to be continued the next morning.
  #56  
Old 03-22-2020, 01:17 PM
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Strip Texas Hold'Em.

Strip Poker should be played with the barest rules of Poker, basically high card wins no betting losers take off an article of clothing, simple as that (if you want to lengthen the game then use the rule where only the person with the worst hand takes off an article of clothing), the moment you start to introduce betting into the whole thing you kind of defeat the whole point of it, especially when you make it so that you only take off an article of clothing once you go bust and use an article of clothing to "buy back in". The only time I was able to play in a public game of strip poker if was Strip Texas Hold'Em and it took absolutely forever to get through so that by the end you were more exhausted than anything.
  #57  
Old 03-22-2020, 01:58 PM
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Candyland and Chutes & Ladders were the first games I thought of as well, as I have children almost 6 & 4. Forgot how horrible a game both are, but, well, they do introduce basic gaming concepts, so you've got to start somewhere.
I work in a preschool, and the kids absolutely LOVE Candyland. Love, love love it. They are lukewarm on chutes and ladders.

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I was never fond of The Game of Life as a kid. I mean, it was fun maybe the first two or three times, then it just kind of sucked. And I didn't like how you can basically lose even at the very end because an opponent bet all their money on a number from one and ten and their number hit and they became a tycoon.
I forgot about Life! Man, that game sucks! Everything from the spinner that never worked right, to rules that were ambiguous (at least to a bunch of kids), to "What the heck is an almshouse?"

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It really isn't. It may be so at the top tier of the game, but most people don't play Monopoly well enough to know enough. When playing games of four where folks are casual players, I would wager I win over 75% of the time.
Yeah. Few people realize that Free Parking is the most landed on space, so that "lottery" gets won a lot. Or that frequency of getting landed on radiates out from Free Parking. So the orange monopoly is a GREAT starter. If you get that one, and it's the first or second monopoly, you have basically won, as long as you aren't careless. The Boardwalk/Park Place monopolies get landed on not so much. Yeah, they can bankrupt people pretty quick, but someone has to land on them first.

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Oh, good Lord. Thank goodness my kid finally learned Crazy 8s (which is basically a regular card deck version of Uno.) I know Uno was mentioned upthread, but I actually do find it a fun family game.
I played Uno in college as a drinking game. I recall it being a pretty good game. When i recall it at all.

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For anyone else not familiar with buzkashi, it apparently consists of men on horseback dragging a dead calf or goat around a field, while fending off opposing men and horses with whips and sharp boots. It sounds like the sort of thing that Scott Adams would have invented for Elbonia, but so far as I can tell from a quick Google, it appears to be real.
Best laugh I have had today.

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Well, if we're talking about games invented for fiction, Quidditch is an incredibly dumb sport.
Seriously. All the other players exhaust themselves, but it makes no difference, because it's really just the Seeker vs. the Snitch. It's like two different games are going on at the same time, and only one counts.

I wonder, though, as an American, if I'm missing something. Is there some ridiculous UK sport that was being parodied?
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  #58  
Old 03-22-2020, 02:03 PM
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Yahtzee hack: Go in order.

Everyone must go for 1's first, then 2's...straight down the line.

It's a nice variation.


mmm
We do top first (any order) then once that's filled in, do the bottom (any order)
  #59  
Old 03-22-2020, 02:14 PM
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Seriously. All the other players exhaust themselves, but it makes no difference, because it's really just the Seeker vs. the Snitch. It's like two different games are going on at the same time, and only one counts.

I wonder, though, as an American, if I'm missing something. Is there some ridiculous UK sport that was being parodied?
It has shades of Cricket where you can play a 4 day long game and still have it end in a tie, the ultimate futility of it all.
  #60  
Old 03-22-2020, 02:21 PM
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It's in a different class of games, but Musical Chairs is one miserable game of making every child into a loser with one non-loser at the end. Russian roulette for kids.
  #61  
Old 03-22-2020, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
Yeah. Few people realize that Free Parking is the most landed on space, so that "lottery" gets won a lot. Or that frequency of getting landed on radiates out from Free Parking. So the orange monopoly is a GREAT starter.
Yep, I try to secure an orange monopoly with trades where I can and, if not, the reds are my second choice, then maybe the purples, and I'll gladly give up yellows, greens, or blues to complete those trades (and most people are not savvy enough that they'll even give me extra cash in hand for those, and then I can develop on those properties while they're cash starved and can't on theirs). And I time those times based on board position, of course. That's not even getting into intermediate strategy, even, but the vast majority of Monopoly players don't even get that far.

(ETA: Free Parking is not the most landed on square. It's Jail, followed by Illinois Ave, Go, B&O Railroad, and then Free Parking. But there are "Go to" cards involved for all those.)

Last edited by pulykamell; 03-22-2020 at 02:47 PM.
  #62  
Old 03-22-2020, 02:52 PM
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Yep, I try to secure an orange monopoly with trades where I can and, if not, the reds are my second choice, then maybe the purples, and I'll gladly give up yellows, greens, or blues to complete those trades (and most people are not savvy enough that they'll even give me extra cash in hand for those, and then I can develop on those properties while they're cash starved and can't on theirs). And I time those times based on board position, of course. That's not even getting into intermediate strategy, even, but the vast majority of Monopoly players don't even get that far.

(ETA: Free Parking is not the most landed on square. It's Jail, followed by Illinois Ave, Go, B&O Railroad, and then Free Parking. But there are "Go to" cards involved for all those.)
I'm pretty sure Free Parking is landed on more often than Jail (not to be confused with Go to Jail, which is not landed on terribly often). I wasn't counting the spaces that had cards directing you there, I was talking purely about how often the space was landed on.
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  #63  
Old 03-22-2020, 03:19 PM
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I'm pretty sure Free Parking is landed on more often than Jail (not to be confused with Go to Jail, which is not landed on terribly often). I wasn't counting the spaces that had cards directing you there, I was talking purely about how often the space was landed on.
Oh, in that case, yes, I'm pretty sure that's correct. I was talking overall chances giving every game mechanic.
  #64  
Old 03-22-2020, 03:33 PM
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Back in the 80s there was a board game called Poleconomy. It was invented in New Zealand, but I played the Canadian version. It was like Monopoly in that you tried to buy properties - actually they were all corporations, not real estate,. and they were real companies who'd apparently paid a little money to be in the game - but it also had a parallel game where you tried to be elected Prime Minister. My best friend was a huge political nerd and desperately wanted this game to work, but it just didn't.

Oh my, I remember the commercial for this playing on CHCH TV11 in Canada we could pull this in with our rotor antenna from Erie PA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfq0lqMAs6Y

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  #65  
Old 03-22-2020, 04:27 PM
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Uno.
Now I would say this is THE BEST card game ever.

For worst, I'd have to go with Twister.
  #66  
Old 03-22-2020, 05:09 PM
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Now I would say this is THE BEST card game ever.

For worst, I'd have to go with Twister.
I'd agree, since in most positions it's difficult to hold onto your cards.
  #67  
Old 03-22-2020, 05:17 PM
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You can make the argument that Candyland and Chutes and Ladders aren't actually games. They are activities that have the trappings of games that teach kids how to play games. There is no agency or player decisions (except the shortcut in Candyland that you would never not take), just random movement. And that's good. Kids need "games" like that.
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Old 03-22-2020, 05:29 PM
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For anyone else not familiar with buzkashi, it apparently consists of men on horseback dragging a dead calf or goat around a field, while fending off opposing men and horses with whips and sharp boots. It sounds like the sort of thing that Scott Adams would have invented for Elbonia, but so far as I can tell from a quick Google, it appears to be real.
I used to play this game with my kids when they were little, too. (Hint: load the dead calf with extra dead weight and sharpen your boots well).
  #69  
Old 03-22-2020, 11:33 PM
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For anyone else not familiar with buzkashi, it apparently consists of men on horseback dragging a dead calf or goat around a field, while fending off opposing men and horses with whips and sharp boots. It sounds like the sort of thing that Scott Adams would have invented for Elbonia, but so far as I can tell from a quick Google, it appears to be real.
It is real. It's the precursor to Polo.
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Old 03-23-2020, 02:47 AM
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Back in the 80s there was a board game called Poleconomy. It was invented in New Zealand, but I played the Canadian version. It was like Monopoly in that you tried to buy properties - actually they were all corporations, not real estate,. and they were real companies who'd apparently paid a little money to be in the game - but it also had a parallel game where you tried to be elected Prime Minister. My best friend was a huge political nerd and desperately wanted this game to work, but it just didn't.
I have a copy of this and have played it a couple of times - not enough for me to make a fair judgement. But I think it's main issue is too much time working out game mechanics, not enough time playing the game. So, like Risk, maybe a computer version would be better?

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I'd agree, since in most positions it's difficult to hold onto your cards.
Well played.

Boardgamegeek.com is a fantastic resource. But Tic Tac Toe is not the worst game, by a long way - mainly because you only ever waste five minutes playing it. Also, while most adults can very quickly learn perfect strategy, it does at least have a strategy.

As for me, I'm genuinely struggling to think of a game I hate so much that if it comes to the table, I'll get up and do something else rather than play it. I'm not a big fan of Tsuro, which it seems to me doesn't have much strategy or skill to it (but maybe I'm just not patient enough to sit there and work out how the board will look in three moves' time). It does let you create penis shapes though, so it has that going for it.
  #71  
Old 03-23-2020, 03:46 AM
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Dominoes!

I forgot about this game!

Yeah, this one will send me from the table.
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  #72  
Old 03-23-2020, 07:29 AM
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At the risk of sounding pedantic, no one on this board is in the target demographic for Candyland.
Not true. Candyland has two demographics: very young children, and the poor hapless adults stuck playing Candyland with them. I was until recently part of the latter demographic.
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You can make the argument that Candyland and Chutes and Ladders aren't actually games. They are activities that have the trappings of games that teach kids how to play games. There is no agency or player decisions (except the shortcut in Candyland that you would never not take), just random movement. And that's good. Kids need "games" like that.
This, however, is exactly right. Candyland is a terrible game, but it's a great tutorial for how to play games. We added a tiny bit of choice to the game (draw two cards, choose which one to play), which even then wasn't a meaningful choice, because one card was always objectively the right choice. But that variation teaches the idea that in a game, you look at your options and at your position before you complete your turn.
  #73  
Old 03-23-2020, 10:03 AM
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I will say this in favor of Life: The plastic pieces that you stuck on the board to make the path three-dimensional were cool.

Of the pure-luck kiddie "games", I'd say that Candyland is the least bad of the lot, because at least it's bounded. With Chutes and Ladders (AKA Snakes and Ladders), there's the risk of having to start over and play the entire game again, just when you'd almost finished. Worse even than Chutes and Ladders, though, is War. That just goes on forever.
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Old 03-23-2020, 10:42 AM
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The worst game is Harpoon. There are 10 people on the planet who actually know how to play, and none of them possess the communication skills to explain it to anyone else.
  #75  
Old 03-23-2020, 10:43 AM
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As for me, I'm genuinely struggling to think of a game I hate so much that if it comes to the table, I'll get up and do something else rather than play it. I'm not a big fan of Tsuro, which it seems to me doesn't have much strategy or skill to it (but maybe I'm just not patient enough to sit there and work out how the board will look in three moves' time). It does let you create penis shapes though, so it has that going for it.
Tsuro has plenty of strategy to it. There is an element of chance, sure, but that’s true of any game I can think of (if for no other reason than you can’t know for certain what your opponent will do). The most important skill is (obviously) being able to figure out where you will end up with the tiles you place and not inadvertently killing yourself. but also keeping track of the other players and getting in their way, and/or staying away from them to avoid collisions. The best part of the game for me is when you realize that you are going to lose no matter what you do, but one loss involves a collision so at least you can take someone down with you, which can be a victory of sorts.

I can understand not everyone loving the game; it can be fun but it’s not a great game (it’s pretty simple) and it’s definitely not among my favorites. But it’s a fast game to play and I rarely turn it down if others want to play. One thing I find interesting is that you know that you can’t last forever, eventually you will end up going off the edge, but your goal is just to survive longer than the other players. There’s a neat little nod to mortality in that.
  #76  
Old 03-23-2020, 10:47 AM
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The worst game is Harpoon. There are 10 people on the planet who actually know how to play, and none of them possess the communication skills to explain it to anyone else.
Apparently Tom Clancy used the Harpoon board game as a source when writing Hunt of Red October and credited it in an author’s note for Red Storm Rising. So I’m guessing he’s one of your ten.
  #77  
Old 03-23-2020, 11:05 AM
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Texas hold'em poker has to be the lamest card game I've ever seen. There's no strategy whatsoever other than deciding whether to bet or fold. And people actually watch that shit on TV.
  #78  
Old 03-23-2020, 11:38 AM
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I played Star Wars monopoly and quite liked it. Seemed to have cut out a lot of the bad parts of the regular game and was over in a reasonable amount of time.
  #79  
Old 03-23-2020, 10:15 PM
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Texas hold'em poker has to be the lamest card game I've ever seen. There's no strategy whatsoever other than deciding whether to bet or fold. And people actually watch that shit on TV.
Um, whut? That's like saying there's no strategy in football besides trying to score or preventing the other team from scoring.
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Old 03-23-2020, 10:20 PM
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The worst game is Harpoon. There are 10 people on the planet who actually know how to play, and none of them possess the communication skills to explain it to anyone else.
You talking about this game?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1yo3ZBCQLc

I played the crap out of that game for years.
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Old 03-23-2020, 11:14 PM
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The PC game worked fine. It wasn't hard to learn at all. Maybe wolf means the board game.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:29 AM
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If we restrict "game" to "boardgame", then tic-tac-toe

if we include computer games....
NOTHING in the whole of existence comes near the failure that is:
Atari's E.T. the extra terrestial.

The perfect example of why one should not make a game from a movie franchise without giving the game dev enough time.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:50 AM
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Poker is not that trivial since you have to know how much to bet (not just whether to or not) etc. and calculate in real-time the probabilities with which you should make each possible move. And make random decisions, at which humans are notoriously bad. You are invited to analyse even a simplified model with fewer cards if you think there aren't any decisions to make.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:50 AM
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I have a copy of [Poleconomy] and have played it a couple of times - not enough for me to make a fair judgement. But I think it's main issue is too much time working out game mechanics, not enough time playing the game. So, like Risk, maybe a computer version would be better?
I've only ever played the "simplified" version where there is no voting for Prime Minister/government. My recollection is that players with a stock-heavy portfolio and those with a bond-heavy portfolio were effectively playing two different games: the stock guys were trying to land on their stock spaces and the bond guys were trying to get the interest rate track to pay off on their bonds. Without the government's ability to buy back bonds, I think bonds were way better as an investment. (This is based on playing it a few times, decades ago.)
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:33 AM
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If we restrict "game" to "boardgame", then tic-tac-toe

if we include computer games....
NOTHING in the whole of existence comes near the failure that is:
Atari's E.T. the extra terrestial.

The perfect example of why one should not make a game from a movie franchise without giving the game dev enough time.
As video games go I doubt E.T. was even one of the five thousand worst games. The game wasn't good, mediocre even by the standards of the Atari 2600, but it technically worked (which many video games don't) and the game rules and mechanics worked. It was a financial disaster but that's not a thing about the game.

Calling ET the worst game ever is like calling "Ishtar" the worst movie ever. Ishtar was mediocre and it was a financial disaster, but there have been countless worse movies.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:41 AM
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There was a "sim" racing game with semi trucks a while back where the "AI" opponents never moved off of the starting line, your speed was faster in reverse than it was forward, and terrain didn't hinder your movement at all (drive along an 80º cliff? Sure!). It's tough for the likes of ET to compete with that.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:42 AM
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I kind of enjoyed E.T. Granted, I was like 5, hadn't seen the movie (still haven't), and didn't understand anything about it, but I liked walking around and floating out of holes. What can I say, I was an easily entertained kid.

As for the worst, never been a fan of Monopoly, but my vote would have to go with The Game of Life. It just sucks.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:44 AM
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The worst game ever was something called Class Struggle. It was Marxist propaganda disguised as a game. It was...dreadful. Very little gamey about it at all. It's probably the one game (other than the Candy Land type of game, which as others have correctly noted are not games at all but training grounds for games) that I would absolutely refuse to play if stuck in an elevator for ten thousand years.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:52 AM
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Of course, Life was a propaganda game, too.
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Old 03-24-2020, 09:24 AM
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As video games go I doubt E.T. was even one of the five thousand worst games. The game wasn't good, mediocre even by the standards of the Atari 2600, but it technically worked (which many video games don't) and the game rules and mechanics worked. It was a financial disaster but that's not a thing about the game.
For a major commercial release, it was much worse than mediocre. Half the game seems to be falling down and getting out of holes and was frustrating as shit as a kid.

That said, Atari's version of Pac-Man is arguably more of a disappointment. There are no two games I hated more on that system then ET and Pac-Man. Just awful. (Yes, I know there's also Custer's Revenge, but we obviously did not have that, and that was a niche release.) And it's too bad, because it was developed by an excellent developer who simply was rushed by execs to get it out in time for Xmas. (Howard Scott Wrashaw -- he made one of my favorite 2600 games in Yars' Revenge) He did well enough given the time constraints, I suppose, but it was still a terrible game for a major release. I would have loved to have seen what he could have made if given a reasonable development time.

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Old 03-24-2020, 09:56 AM
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Um, whut? That's like saying there's no strategy in football besides trying to score or preventing the other team from scoring.
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Poker is not that trivial since you have to know how much to bet (not just whether to or not) etc. and calculate in real-time the probabilities with which you should make each possible move. And make random decisions, at which humans are notoriously bad. You are invited to analyse even a simplified model with fewer cards if you think there aren't any decisions to make.
I don't see how it's any different than betting on the outcome of a game of the aforementioned Candy Land or Chutes and Ladders. The outcome is predetermined, and all you're doing is betting on probabilities.
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:05 AM
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For anyone else not familiar with buzkashi, it apparently consists of men on horseback dragging a dead calf or goat around a field, while fending off opposing men and horses with whips and sharp boots. It sounds like the sort of thing that Scott Adams would have invented for Elbonia, but so far as I can tell from a quick Google, it appears to be real.
Note that there are no sticks or hooks, so the guys on horseback actually have to lean way over the side of their horse to grab the calf off the ground. Aside from the fairly gruesome look of the 'ball' I don't see how it's any more barbaric or comic than lacrosse or polo. It's not like the calf starts out alive or anything.
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:05 AM
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You could make bets on the outcome of a Candyland game, partway through the game (whoever's currently ahead is the most likely to win, but just how likely?). But it still wouldn't be as interesting as poker gambling, because betting on a Candyland game, all of the bettors would have the same information. If gambling on Candyland were common, then there would quickly arise tables and calculator apps and heuristic rules on what the probability was of winning for players ahead by a certain amount at a certain stage of the game, and so there'd be no skill in the betting.

But in poker, not everyone has the same information. You know your own cards, but not those of the other players. You know the actions of the players who bet before you, but you don't know the actions of the players who are betting after you. If you're the second person to bet, and the first person bet big, that probably (but not necessarily) means that they're holding pretty good cards. With the knowledge that they're holding pretty good cards, what do the odds look like for you right now? There's room for a lot of strategy there, enough so that money consistent flows from bad players to good players, in the long run.

I mean, it's not a very good game for me, because I dislike betting. So I'm obviously not going to play a game where all of the interesting parts come from betting. But for those players who do like betting, it's a fine game.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Ulf the Unwashed View Post
The worst game ever was something called Class Struggle. It was Marxist propaganda disguised as a game. It was...dreadful. Very little gamey about it at all. It's probably the one game (other than the Candy Land type of game, which as others have correctly noted are not games at all but training grounds for games) that I would absolutely refuse to play if stuck in an elevator for ten thousand years.
Oh, this reminds me of an excellent book I read fairly recently by British comedian Dave Gorman - it was all about him travelling around the UK to play games with strangers. One chapter involved him being inveigled into creationist propaganda disguised as a board game (which in itself wasn't even any good). I won't spoil the ending (it's called Dave Gorman vs the rest of the world, you should read it) but I think that game falls into a similar category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponch8 View Post
I don't see how it's any different than betting on the outcome of a game of the aforementioned Candy Land or Chutes and Ladders. The outcome is predetermined, and all you're doing is betting on probabilities.
In addition to Chronos' excellent answer, the outcome is not predetermined, because you might be able to induce the holder of a better hand to throw it away by means of your betting, thus winning the money without having to reveal your cards.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:40 AM
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Just wanted to note that if you are able-bodied and don't like Twister, you're just playing with the wrong people.

Last edited by JohnT; 03-24-2020 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Isamu View Post
You talking about this game?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1yo3ZBCQLc

I played the crap out of that game for years.
Talking about this one.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/...st-3rd-edition

I can seen they made up to 4 editions, so maybe it got better documented later, but the first version was incomprehensible.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
But in poker, not everyone has the same information. You know your own cards, but not those of the other players. You know the actions of the players who bet before you, but you don't know the actions of the players who are betting after you. If you're the second person to bet, and the first person bet big, that probably (but not necessarily) means that they're holding pretty good cards. With the knowledge that they're holding pretty good cards, what do the odds look like for you right now? There's room for a lot of strategy there, enough so that money consistent flows from bad players to good players, in the long run.
In addition to the information you gain from the bets in this round, there's also the information you've gained from previous rounds. During the course of an evening of poker, you'll start spotting behaviors like who is more likely to bluff, who is more likely to take risks, and who is more likely to play conservatively. You also look for tells, where the other players display unconscious signs of whether they have a good hand or a bad one.

And above a certain level, these observations can become a metagame. The players will all be aware that everyone is watching for these patterns and will begin creating false patterns in an attempt to deceive the other players. A player who plans on bluffing late in the game, for example, will deliberately avoid bluffing early in the game to create a false impression and make his later bluffs more effective.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:59 AM
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That said, Atari's version of Pac-Man is arguably more of a disappointment.
Oh god that was horrible. The migraine inducing screen refresh 3 times per second shit was s bad as tech gets.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:03 PM
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Regarding games where one is merely betting on the outcome, some of the people playing Roulette in the casino seem to enjoy the atmosphere, chatting, and having a drink, while some do little more than stare listlessly at the wheel while they wait for the next round. There is more going on behind the scenes to determine how much fun people are having than the game itself, which we can all agree is not that interesting.

ETA and, by the way, people have been literally murdered because of Bridge, which we can all agree is supposed to be a fun and social card game, highly intricate and strategic without any betting.

Last edited by DPRK; 03-24-2020 at 12:07 PM.
  #100  
Old 03-24-2020, 12:09 PM
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I can seen they made up to 4 editions, so maybe it got better documented later, but the first version was incomprehensible.
Out of curiosity, do you have a background in hex-and-counter wargames? I've seen people who are quite experienced in playing boardgames decide to try out a wargame and find that it's a different world. And the same is true for a boardgamer or a wargamer trying out a role-playing game for the first time.

It's not that any of these genres of gaming are inherently more complicated than the others. But they all have different forms of complexity which don't transfer between them.
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