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  #51  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:49 AM
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We'll see. Obviously this isn't about me -- I'm just sharing my opinion.
Well, what in your opinion would be a "full investigation"?
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:50 AM
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His "national relevance" is short? They put him on the scotus for life, ALSO stealing that seat from a D potus. That is more "national relevance" than should be tolerated by US voters. It's just about eternal.
No he's saying that Joe Biden was "nationally prominent" back in the 70s when he became a Senator, or at least in 2008 when he was a VP candidate, and Reade could have (should have?) made her accusations at some point then. That she's now coming out at the 11th hour before a presidential nomination is somehow a mark against her, whereas Blasey-Ford had no choice but to come out with her accusation at the 11th hour because that was the first time Kavanaugh rose to national prominence.

This of course ignores the fact that Kavanaugh was a federal judge for 15 years prior to his SCOTUS nomination, and even then I'm not sure why it's terribly relevant that Reade waited until now. Joe Biden, as a US Senator, was already nationally prominent in 1993 when he allegedly committed the assault, so whatever fear she may have felt at the time could very well have likely carried on through his VP days.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:50 AM
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I guess we have learned what it takes for Republican voters to start listening to women: an allegation against a Democrat.

Iím not like Trump voters who have thoroughly bought into a cult of personality. If Biden did something wrong, dump him.

How many Trump voters in this thread will say that about their cult leader?
  #54  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:53 AM
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The moral reason is enough to investigate (and obviously journalists will already be doing so), but there's still a very strong political reason -- the campaign needs to know all the potential lines of attack, coming from Trump or coming from elsewhere. If an allegation is false, they need to be able to demonstrate this as best they can, to refute it.
Another trial in the court of public opinion. Awesome.

We already know how this usually goes, though; Democrats resign and Republicans get rewarded with the highest public offices. Say what you will about Bill Clinton, but the sonofabitch was as big a sociopath as any Republican.

Am I saying that what the Democratic party needs is more Bill Clintons? Hell no. What I'm saying is, we all need to strap in for another 4 years of Trump.
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  #55  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:54 AM
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Well, what in your opinion would be a "full investigation"?
I'm not a professional in any related field. Something much, much more thorough than the pitiful Senate investigation into Kavanaugh. If I were a party bigwig, I'd hire the best PI agency from the city/area in question, and write a huge check telling them to find out the accuracy of the accusation as best they can.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:54 AM
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Jimmy Dore played the whole podcast as did the Hill, on YouTube. Jimmy said when she came forward before she was doxíd and called a Russian agent.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:55 AM
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There isn't time for an actual investigation.

I'll put it this way: if this opens the floodgates and other women start coming forward saying Joe grabbed their buttocks and did more than creepy hair sniffing, I'm with Ravenman: dump him.

Trump will win re-election, but I'd rather live in a plutocracy and know that the democrats purified their party. That would help me sleep (under a bridge) better at night.
  #58  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:55 AM
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What I'm saying is, we all need to strap in for another 4 years of Trump.
This was already a possibility. IMO, this becomes more likely if we ignore accusations against the presumptive candidate -- especially months before, when there's plenty of time to pick another candidate if the accusations are accurate.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:57 AM
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There isn't time for an actual investigation.
There are months until the convention. There's time to at least find out some of the facts, if there are facts to be found.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:57 AM
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This was already a possibility. IMO, this becomes more likely if we ignore accusations against the presumptive candidate -- especially months before, when there's plenty of time to pick another candidate if the accusations are accurate.
Stop trying to make Bernie happen.
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  #61  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:59 AM
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I guess we have learned what it takes for Republican voters to start listening to women: an allegation against a Democrat.

Iím not like Trump voters who have thoroughly bought into a cult of personality. If Biden did something wrong, dump him.

How many Trump voters in this thread will say that about their cult leader?
But would Biden voters revert to Bernie?
  #62  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:59 AM
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I'm not a professional in any related field. Something much, much more thorough than the pitiful Senate investigation into Kavanaugh. If I were a party bigwig, I'd hire the best PI agency from the city/area in question, and write a huge check telling them to find out the accuracy of the accusation as best they can.
As pitiful as it was, it was still conducted by the FBI, which has weight. People can lie their ass off to a PI firm.
  #63  
Old 03-27-2020, 12:10 PM
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Jimmy Dore played the whole podcast as did the Hill, on YouTube. Jimmy said when she came forward before she was dox’d and called a Russian agent.
When she came out before it was not sexual assault. What she said then is fundamentally different now as she alleges a crime took place. Furthermore from her social media it appeared she was saying positive things about Biden which must have muddied the waters the first time.

Last edited by Boycott; 03-27-2020 at 12:11 PM.
  #64  
Old 03-27-2020, 12:10 PM
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This of course ignores the fact that Kavanaugh was a federal judge for 15 years prior to his SCOTUS nomination
I'm guessing that one person in a thousand could have named who Kavanaugh was as a federal judge.

But, more to the point, Republicans said everything under the sun during the Kavanaugh hearings and "Sure, but Republicans said that" isn't especially meaningful by itself.
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Old 03-27-2020, 12:11 PM
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As pitiful as it was, it was still conducted by the FBI, which has weight. People can lie their ass off to a PI firm.
It was deliberately barred from investigating certain possible witnesses and pursuing certain lines of inquiry. It was a bullshit sham of an investigation, deliberately limited both in time and scale by the GOP for political reasons.
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Old 03-27-2020, 12:27 PM
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But would Biden voters revert to Bernie?
No.
  #67  
Old 03-27-2020, 12:46 PM
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I predict that this is only first in a flood of women coming forth with similar accusations. I'm quite certain that Trump's campaign and the big Republican hate machine have others lines up after her, so the Biden campaign should be prepared for an onslaught, not to take this as a single incident that can be dealt with on its own.
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Old 03-27-2020, 12:48 PM
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It was deliberately barred from investigating certain possible witnesses and pursuing certain lines of inquiry. It was a bullshit sham of an investigation, deliberately limited both in time and scale by the GOP for political reasons.
I know you are actually committed to this cause but I sure as shit hope you don't think this is getting Bernie installed. ->note lack of smilie here<-
  #69  
Old 03-27-2020, 12:48 PM
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This November, I think a lot of Democrats will get a taste of what being a Trump voter was like in 2016: Where, no matter how bad your guy may be, you just cannot abide the thought of his opponent winning office.


Not that I'm saying that Trump and Hillary are the same. But it's the same sentiment - "We'll vote for our candidate no matter what and nothing will change our ballot."
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Old 03-27-2020, 12:50 PM
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There isn't time for an actual investigation.
Eh? ....There's 7 months between now and Election Day.
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Old 03-27-2020, 12:50 PM
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I predict that this is only first in a flood of women coming forth with similar accusations. I'm quite certain that Trump's campaign and the big Republican hate machine have others lines up after her, so the Biden campaign should be prepared for an onslaught, not to take this as a single incident that can be dealt with on its own.
Sounds like a dumb prediction. Why did none of them come out during the "touchy Joe" news cycle?
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Old 03-27-2020, 12:51 PM
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Eh? ....There's 7 months between now and Election Day.
You mean, they could wrap up an investigation the day before the election and that's ok? That's the idea you are saying right now?
  #73  
Old 03-27-2020, 12:52 PM
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Who do the anti bernies want to go for if biden flames out? Is Gary Hart still alive?

https://www.salon.com/2020/03/27/pol...f-coronavirus/

Lichtman also told Salon last week that if Trump loses as a result of the coronavirus, his opponent is almost irrelevant; it simply won't matter whether the Democrats have nominated Biden or Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

Trump's potential defeat has "nothing to do with Joe Biden whatsoever," Lichtman said, although in his formula Biden is not "charismatic," meaning that Key 13 would turn in Trump's favor. "Remember, the basic theory behind the keys is that elections are essentially votes up or down on whether or not the party holding the White House should get four more years."

He added that while he is not advocating for any candidate, "this notion that [Sanders] is unelectable is just false. You and I have talked about this before: the whole notion of electability is nonsense. Except for these once-in-a-generation candidates [he earlier cited Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama] — we have no idea who is electable."
  #74  
Old 03-27-2020, 01:03 PM
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I know you are actually committed to this cause but I sure as shit hope you don't think this is getting Bernie installed. ->note lack of smilie here<-
In my dreams... but no, even if Biden withdrew, I doubt Bernie would get it. Unfortunately!
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Old 03-27-2020, 01:05 PM
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What's Howard Dean doing these days? He may be just what the doctor ordered in this crisis.
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  #76  
Old 03-27-2020, 01:57 PM
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Who do the anti bernies want to go for if biden flames out? Is Gary Hart still alive?
[...]
Lichtman also told Salon last week that if Trump loses as a result of the coronavirus, his opponent is almost irrelevant
Seems like, in that case, the delegates should go to someone whose policies are most like Biden's since that's what the primary electorate wanted.
  #77  
Old 03-27-2020, 02:01 PM
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Seems like, in that case, the delegates should go to someone whose policies are most like Biden's since that's what the primary electorate wanted.
From the polling I've seen, the biggest reason Biden's supporters gave, by far, for supporting him is that they thought he was the most likely to beat Trump. ISTM this primary was about voters' perceptions of electability far more than policy preferences.
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Old 03-27-2020, 02:39 PM
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From the polling I've seen, the biggest reason Biden's supporters gave, by far, for supporting him is that they thought he was the most likely to beat Trump. ISTM this primary was about voters' perceptions of electability far more than policy preferences.
You don't think his policies are part of why they thought he was most likely to beat Trump?
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Old 03-27-2020, 02:42 PM
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But Iíd say the main reason more people think Bernie is not electable is because of his policies. We arenít talking about concepts completely divorced from each other.
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Old 03-27-2020, 02:47 PM
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It's clear that Biden engaged in questionable behavior with women and made them feel uncomfortable. She had a chance to tell her story at a time when a lot of women were coming forward with pretty candid accounts of their interactions with Biden. Still, I could consider the possibility that she didn't feel comfortable telling the whole story - maybe it was too painful.

But her favorable comments about Putin and knowing the extent to which Putin is involved in disrupting the mainstream political element that Biden represents makes the timing very suspicious. I'm also suspicious of the Intercept, which is one of the main outlets airing her story. They're unapologetically pro-Sanders. This former staffer is on record as supporting Sanders. The timing of it all just smacks of another conspiracy theory.

My default position is that we've been through a primary with full knowledge of Biden's past indiscretions. It's a matter of whether we are to believe that Biden outright committed clear and obvious "sexual assault" that went beyond the forgivable. I don't think he did. But I could be wrong, and I could be led to change my mind.
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:09 PM
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I guess we have learned what it takes for Republican voters to start listening to women: an allegation against a Democrat.

Iím not like Trump voters who have thoroughly bought into a cult of personality. If Biden did something wrong, dump him.

How many Trump voters in this thread will say that about their cult leader?
Not really. What it takes to point out hypocrisy when it comes form the other side, yes.
Not very many people here (including the people who identify as Republicans LIKE Trump)

You are one of very few who have said to dump him. Some want a whole other level of investigation (just to be sure), and others don't care what evidence, they are voting for him anyway (Well, because FUCK TRUMP) and even some others who will pretend this isn't a thing.

I was not against any investigation into Kavanaugh. I am not against an investigation into Biden.

What I am against is the hypocrisy that gets espoused here when the other side does it.

I have been saying for years, that both sides of the political spectrum are bad.

I can already hear the cries of "Not nearly AS BAD" coming from people who would rather point fingers.
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:14 PM
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I'm not a professional in any related field. Something much, much more thorough than the pitiful Senate investigation into Kavanaugh. If I were a party bigwig, I'd hire the best PI agency from the city/area in question, and write a huge check telling them to find out the accuracy of the accusation as best they can.
It's always the big check just to ask questions. Which is what CarnalK was inferring earlier, when he said it wouldn't be enough for you. It hasn't been and likely never will be , ENOUGH.

At some point, investigations get slowed, no new evidence is there (like the Kavanaugh case), and the evidence that was presented wasn't credible ENOUGH to stop a confirmation hearing.

I predict the same thing here. Not necessarily because the Democrats want to cover it up but simply because evidence that is so far past is HARD to corroborate. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU SPEND.
  #83  
Old 03-27-2020, 03:15 PM
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You don't think his policies are part of why they thought he was most likely to beat Trump?
Good point! Yes, that probably had something to do with it.
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:21 PM
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It's always the big check just to ask questions. Which is what CarnalK was inferring earlier, when he said it wouldn't be enough for you. It hasn't been and likely never will be , ENOUGH.
This is just ridiculous. It didn't even take an investigation (beyond publicly available info) to have "ENOUGH" info to dump Franken (rightly so). And we didn't require the pitiful non-investigation into Kavanaugh to rightly determine that he was unacceptable for SCOTUS based on his personal conduct (i.e. how he responded to the allegations against him). And I'd happily dump Biden right this minute, if it were up to me. But it's not, and an investigation is the best those of us who value opposing sexual assault are likely to get right now. And sometimes, investigations actually find evidence confirming or refuting allegations -- for example, Cosby, Weinstein, the Duke Lacrosse case that was determined to be a hoax, and many more. Real and thorough investigations very often actually are "ENOUGH", but they often don't occur.

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I predict the same thing here. Not necessarily because the Democrats want to cover it up but simply because evidence that is so far past is HARD to corroborate. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU SPEND.
Yes, it would likely be very hard. So what? Are you advocating that nothing be done, and this allegation be ignored? An investigation might not turn up anything at all. But maybe it will. We don't know if a real and thorough investigation into Kavanaugh would've turned up anything, because there wasn't such an investigation. We do know that it turned up facts -- even old facts -- for Cosby and Weinstein.

If you're advocating that investigations are dumb, then I strongly disagree. If you're not arguing that, then I'm not sure what you're arguing beyond some sort of specific personal criticism against me.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-27-2020 at 03:22 PM.
  #85  
Old 03-27-2020, 03:24 PM
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Not really. What it takes to point out hypocrisy when it comes form the other side, yes.
Not very many people here (including the people who identify as Republicans LIKE Trump)

You are one of very few who have said to dump him. Some want a whole other level of investigation (just to be sure), and others don't care what evidence, they are voting for him anyway (Well, because FUCK TRUMP) and even some others who will pretend this isn't a thing.

I was not against any investigation into Kavanaugh. I am not against an investigation into Biden.

What I am against is the hypocrisy that gets espoused here when the other side does it.

I have been saying for years, that both sides of the political spectrum are bad.

I can already hear the cries of "Not nearly AS BAD" coming from people who would rather point fingers.
"Both sides are the same!"

What a joke. God what incredibly, pathetically lazy thinking.
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:27 PM
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You are one of very few who have said to dump him.
That is not what I said.

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What I am against is the hypocrisy that gets espoused here when the other side does it.
Hypocrisy is the bugaboo for avoiding reason. A charge of hypocrisy is nothing but an ad hominem, an argument that matters not at all.

Sorry youíre so worked up over fighting hypocrisy. Itís a stupid battle to pick, because it literally doesnít matter.
  #87  
Old 03-27-2020, 03:28 PM
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who is happier about this story? Trump fans or Bernie fans? Maybe it's a tie.
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:54 PM
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What are we supposed to do with the accusation now?

We already know that Trump is a serial sexual assaulter. We know that Biden has inappropriately touched other women before -- this is not really new information.

I hate sounding like an apologist, but Biden is the best of some rather shitty options, which is shitty, but I'm not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the survival of this country.

I know I'm going to get torched for this, so flame away.

Not necessarily. It's a potential quandary. If the two candidates for President are both guilty of sexual harrassment, what do you do? And if one of them is Donald Fucking Trump, what does a good person do? Quandary.

I hope this story is bullshit, of course.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:02 PM
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But would Biden voters revert to Bernie?
Against Trump? Shit yeah I would. That's just me.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:47 PM
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God, Trump's going to win again, isn't he?
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:58 PM
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Trump likely wins unless he's 6 feet under
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:26 PM
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This may be exactly the break the Bernie Sanders campaign is looking for!

It's kind of sickening, actually, how readily and eagerly Bernie's supporters are pushing this story online. It's just like 2016, all over again.
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  #93  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:27 PM
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Sounds like a dumb prediction. Why did none of them come out during the "touchy Joe" news cycle?
While a Sanders comeback is looking decidedly less likely, the Democratic primaries are not done at this point, much less back then. There is absolutely no reason for the Republicans (and especially Trump's campaign) to use any of their ammunition against someone who is not the Democratic candidate this far before the elections, and plenty of reasons for them not to. Once Biden is actually running against Trump and not against Sanders (the rest of the field is gone at this point), then the Republicans will start seriously campaigning against him, and bring out the big guns. And even then, they'll probably hold some of this back until closer to the election - like has been pointed out on this thread, there's plenty of time for investigation now.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:54 PM
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Not necessarily. It's a potential quandary. If the two candidates for President are both guilty of sexual harrassment, what do you do? And if one of them is Donald Fucking Trump, what does a good person do? Quandary.

I hope this story is bullshit, of course.
As far as voting in the GE between Biden and Trump, in most conceivable outcomes for this sexual assault allegation you're right.

Rationally the only voters this should matter for are people who would vote for Trump based on his policies but want to vote for his opponent due to his sexual misconduct accusations. I think this is an astronomically small group, so I don't think it's the main issue.

The main issue as far as GE politics goes is that if this story has legs, it's a huge enthusiasm swing in favor of Trump. Voters aren't entirely rational and this will lead left-leaning voters to stay home and right-leaning voters to show up at the polls more than if the story doesn't go anywhere.

This accusation is coming out at a weird time because the DNC could try to take some drastic measure to overrule the primary delegate math and choose someone they think they think is safer than Biden. I don't think it makes sense to do that without more corroboration of the accusation, but there needs to be some way to avoid going into a general election if this story does really go somewhere and more evidence builds to support this accusation, or if more accusers come forward. I don't know how the party should manage that. I do think if the DNC just has to throw out the delegate rules and meet in a smoke-filled room to pick a candidate (an outcome which I hope the party manages to avoid) they should pick either Buttigieg or Klobuchar.

If Biden does get the nomination and it ends up looking likely that he is a rapist it frankly is a terrible look for the country. Because of FPTP, people will basically have to vote a candidate with sexual assault accusations, which therefore means that powerful men being unaccountable for their sex crimes is just something we life with, essentially exactly the cultural issue that MeToo was aimed at fighting.
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Old 03-27-2020, 08:30 PM
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From the polling I've seen, the biggest reason Biden's supporters gave, by far, for supporting him is that they thought he was the most likely to beat Trump. ISTM this primary was about voters' perceptions of electability far more than policy preferences.
Which Lichtman says is delusional.
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Old 03-27-2020, 08:35 PM
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While a Sanders comeback is looking decidedly less likely, the Democratic primaries are not done at this point, much less back then. There is absolutely no reason for the Republicans (and especially Trump's campaign) to use any of their ammunition against someone who is not the Democratic candidate this far before the elections, and plenty of reasons for them not to. Once Biden is actually running against Trump and not against Sanders (the rest of the field is gone at this point), then the Republicans will start seriously campaigning against him, and bring out the big guns. And even then, they'll probably hold some of this back until closer to the election - like has been pointed out on this thread, there's plenty of time for investigation now.
That's all well and good but you said that you had no doubt a flood of similar accusations will follow. So what's with this bullshit "wait and see" stance?
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Old 03-27-2020, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Should be investigated thoroughly.

The fact that she has written love letters to Vladimir Putin, and she comes forward now that Biden is the nominee against Putins puppet (Trump) is kind of bothersome.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190404...n-f54ca2a3a405

Should still be investigated though.

Its sad that of all the moderate candidates, the voters picked Biden
. They could've had Buttigieg who would've been a much better candidate. Or Harris.
Yup. "Gaffey Joe" has absolutely NO charisma, NO personality, NO accomplishments, and NO message to try to sell to the U.S. electorate. In other words: he sucks. Way to go, Dems - NOT!
  #98  
Old 03-27-2020, 08:42 PM
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  #99  
Old 03-27-2020, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
....
She appears to have changed her story because her previous version wasn't getting any traction. But this version sounds even more fake, with lines out of a badly written novel. This is a common form of lying--of constantly making things bigger and bigger. It's not a common way that victims act--they remember the trauma and stick with it, with only minor details varying due to memory.

Changing your story in a substantial way is a legitimate reason to treat an accusation with suspicion. As is her repeating Russian propaganda at a time when Russia is currently known to be trying to mess with our election process. These are far more substantive than claiming someone is lying because someone else doesn't remember, alleging a calendar proves something didn't happen, and other such things. ...
Yes, and not to mention she is a big Sanders supporter, and people are saying she is just doing this to get Sanders the Nom.

Or to make sure America pays for it's error in not letting Sanders win.

She had a somewhat believable story, that Biden hugged her and that was unwelcome. And yes, I could accept Biden doing that, altho he didnt remember it.

But first she was Bidens buddy and she thought he was great. Then she claimed he hugged her at a unwelcome time. Now she's claiming rape- just as her candidate sanders is about to concede.

Last edited by DrDeth; 03-27-2020 at 08:50 PM.
  #100  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
And then due to the extreme time lapse, no evidence one way or the other is found (JUST LIKE MOST CASES but also like the Kavanaugh case), then what?
Well, this is a little different.

See, a long time lapse is understandable if the accussee is now just thrust upon the national stage, like Kavanaugh or Thomas. But this happened in 1993. Since then, Biden was Veep for 8 years- why not speak out then? And then Biden ran for President in 2016- why not speak out then? And why not speak out when Biden began his 2020 campaign.

But why oh why would a Sanders supporter chose this moment, when Biden has pretty much won and sanders has no real chance- to speak out? why? It's obvious.
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