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  #101  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:04 PM
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His "national relevance" is short? They put him on the scotus for life, ALSO stealing that seat from a D potus.. That is more "national relevance" than should be tolerated by US voters. It's just about eternal.
this is actually not correct
  #102  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:04 PM
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Joe Biden will not be president. And there's more to come. Dems chose wrong.
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:08 PM
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I'll also note that this is an entirely different kind of accusation than the others -- IIRC, this is the first time anyone has accused Biden of sexual assault, or anything close to sexual assault. All the other accusations (acknowledged and apologized for by Biden, IIRC) were non-sexual touching -- i.e. hair, shoulders, hugs, etc., that violated personal space but with no allegations of anything sexual.
....
Yeah, and I kinda believed her earlier allegation. Joe is a toucher. That was possible.

She no longer has any credibility.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:11 PM
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Joe Biden will not be president. And there's more to come. Dems chose wrong.
I hope you're wrong. But I really think you're going to be right (unfortunately).
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Old 03-28-2020, 12:46 AM
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And then Biden ran for President in 2016
For the sake of accuracy, Biden didn't run in 2016. He planned to but then put it off after his son died.
  #106  
Old 03-28-2020, 12:49 AM
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I just don't get why she waited until he pretty much locked up the nomination.
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Old 03-28-2020, 01:14 AM
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I just don't get why she waited until he pretty much locked up the nomination.
Because the goal of a large number of Bernie supporters is to destroy the Democratic Party.

Notice I said Bernie supporters, a great deal of them aren’t Democrats and actively hate the party more than the Republicans. They’re the type who think smashing the windows of a Starbucks is making a stand against globalism. Or whining about the corporate two party Republocrats makes them cool.

If Bernie ran a conventional campaign, they’d lash their claws out on him. Bernie is a narcissistic fool with a messianic complex so there’s no risk of that
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  #108  
Old 03-28-2020, 01:17 AM
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Something is going to happen to force Joe to drop out, and the Party will end up ad hoc nominating someone else entirely. Maybe some governor whose name ends in a vowel because he happens to inspire a lot of people at the time.
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Old 03-28-2020, 07:56 AM
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That's all well and good but you said that you had no doubt a flood of similar accusations will follow. So what's with this bullshit "wait and see" stance?
Yes, I said that I expect the Republicans to gear up and bring up a flood of similar accusations, and that I hope the Biden campaign is ready for that because it's pretty obviously what they're going to do. I have no idea what "bullshit 'wait and see' stance" you're talking about, I think you might be confusing me with another poster since the only comments I made in this thread was the one you responded to and a direct response to you.

Biden not being prepared for sexual harassment/assault allegations would be like Bernie not being prepared for the 'he's a communist, trips to the USSR!' accusations that the Republicans could be expected to make.
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Old 03-28-2020, 08:06 AM
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Biden not being prepared for sexual harassment/assault allegations would be like Bernie not being prepared for the 'he's a communist, trips to the USSR!' accusations that the Republicans could be expected to make.
Well, he wasn't prepared to cough properly on MSNBC the other day. A "reporter" whose name ends in the same vowel mentioned above had to school him.
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Old 03-28-2020, 08:33 AM
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Quoth dalej42:

Because the goal of a large number of Bernie supporters is to destroy the Democratic Party.
No, that's the goal of Putin supporters, not Bernie supporters. I don't know why everyone keeps confusing the two.
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Old 03-28-2020, 08:38 AM
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If Trump wins this time I can certainly see Andrew Cuomo running in 2024. But it's way to late for him to run now.
  #113  
Old 03-28-2020, 09:06 AM
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No, that's the goal of Putin supporters, not Bernie supporters. I don't know why everyone keeps confusing the two.
There's a lot of conspiracy theory energy among Bernie supporters, a lot of grievance politics. Putin readily taps into that energy, and the rest of us can be forgiven for assuming that Sanders' voters want to destroy the party. They're the left's Tea Party.
  #114  
Old 03-28-2020, 09:13 AM
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No, that's the goal of Putin supporters, not Bernie supporters. I don't know why everyone keeps confusing the two.
The former staffer in this story is both. FYI.
  #115  
Old 03-28-2020, 10:38 AM
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Well, this is a little different.

See, a long time lapse is understandable if the accussee is now just thrust upon the national stage, like Kavanaugh or Thomas. But this happened in 1993. Since then, Biden was Veep for 8 years- why not speak out then? And then Biden ran for President in 2016- why not speak out then? And why not speak out when Biden began his 2020 campaign.

But why oh why would a Sanders supporter chose this moment, when Biden has pretty much won and sanders has no real chance- to speak out? why? It's obvious.

The timing does seem a bit too convenient and there is a whiff of a fanatic about her with respect to her comments about Putin. It would be foolish not to be skeptical about her latest claims.
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  #116  
Old 03-28-2020, 10:46 AM
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Well, he wasn't prepared to cough properly on MSNBC the other day. A "reporter" whose name ends in the same vowel mentioned above had to school him.
I prefer Biden to Sanders because I think not enough of America is sufficiently progressive. The primaries show that. But far too often, Biden makes me cringe. Not because he coughed the wrong way, but because in interviews he cannot seem to handle answering simple questions. There was a town hall recently with CNN where Biden was responding to called in questions from a voter, and he had serious trouble staying on topic or even remembering the question being asked. He rambled like an absent minded old man. And Anderson Cooper let him. I think he did so out of kindness.
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  #117  
Old 03-28-2020, 10:55 AM
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newsweek article on this story

https://www.newsweek.com/biden-campa...taffer-1494794
  #118  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:02 AM
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I just don't get why she waited until he pretty much locked up the nomination.
I don't necessarily see the problem with waiting to make these claims until a point at which they have significant impact. Assuming it's true, it seems totally reasonable to come forward at a time when the accusation would have maximum impact. If I were sexually assaulted, I would want to inflict the maximum pain possible to my abuser. And if I felt he was part of a larger organization which was pervasive with that behavior, I would want to harm that organization as well.

A big problem for Biden is that his extensive behavior of being super touchy makes any accusation have a greater degree of credibility. There are hundreds or thousands of pictures of him touching different women. If any of those women came forward saying they were uncomfortable or that he did more to them off-camera, it would be basically impossible to disprove their allegations.
  #119  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:20 AM
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A little bit about the dynamics of a presidential campaign when there's an incumbent on the ballot. Everybody has an opinion of trump. Love him or hate him, think he's the second coming or the anti-Christ, people's opinion of trump is fixed and baked into the cake. So if you can't change people's opinion of trump the only way to move the needle is to change people's opinion of the other guy. So what are the things that people negatively think about trump? That he's crooked. So make them think that Biden's crooked too (Burisma). That he's mentally unstable. So make them think that Biden has dementia. That he's a sexual predator. So make them think that Biden is too.

People will vote for someone with whom they disagree if they think that he is a better person. But if you can effectively smear the opposing candidate with a given percentage of the electorate, then those issues can be "factored out" on both sides of the equation and the election will be decided based on policy, where the Republicans think they can win.
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Old 03-28-2020, 11:22 AM
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I just don't get why she waited until he pretty much locked up the nomination.
Because she was mad that Sanders was losing and wants him to win.
  #121  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:29 AM
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No, that's the goal of Putin supporters, not Bernie supporters. I don't know why everyone keeps confusing the two.
Some of them overlap.
  #122  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:35 AM
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I don't necessarily see the problem with waiting to make these claims until a point at which they have significant impact. Assuming it's true, it seems totally reasonable to come forward at a time when the accusation would have maximum impact. ....
A big problem for Biden is that his extensive behavior of being super touchy makes any accusation have a greater degree of credibility. There are hundreds or thousands of pictures of him touching different women. If any of those women came forward saying they were uncomfortable or that he did more to them off-camera, it would be basically impossible to disprove their allegations.
Then why not when he was running for Veep? I mean, no one knew he'd be top candidate for prez here in 2020.

Touchy is one thing. Biden is a touchy person, altho he has stopped recently- or made a good effort anyway. If someone says Biden hugged her and that made her feel uncomfortable, I will usually buy it. And one case where a woman claimed just that- but on stage she came over and hugged Joe. But she said that's different as she initiated the hug- well, yeah...

But this woman is saying Biden raped her. There's a huge gap between a hugger and a rapist.
  #123  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:38 AM
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A little bit about the dynamics of a presidential campaign when there's an incumbent on the ballot. Everybody has an opinion of trump. Love him or hate him, think he's the second coming or the anti-Christ, people's opinion of trump is fixed and baked into the cake. So if you can't change people's opinion of trump the only way to move the needle is to change people's opinion of the other guy. So what are the things that people negatively think about trump? That he's crooked. So make them think that Biden's crooked too (Burisma). That he's mentally unstable. So make them think that Biden has dementia. That he's a sexual predator. So make them think that Biden is too.

People will vote for someone with whom they disagree if they think that he is a better person. But if you can effectively smear the opposing candidate with a given percentage of the electorate, then those issues can be "factored out" on both sides of the equation and the election will be decided based on policy, where the Republicans think they can win.
Fiendishly clever analysis. But this strategy must have some plausibility to it. Unfortunately, Biden has seen fit to oblige.
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  #124  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:40 AM
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Automatically assuming she's lying is the sort of thing that Trump and his supporters do. We should be better than that. It doesn't mean anyone has to believe her, but the accusation should be taken seriously and the accuser should not be denigrated, not without strong evidence she's lying.
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Old 03-28-2020, 11:41 AM
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Then why not when he was running for Veep? I mean, no one knew he'd be top candidate for prez here in 2020.
Because, if you have kompromat, you don't waste it on the guy who is second in command. Not all kompromat gets to be used. But if you waste it on meaningless victories, you won't have it for when it when it is meaningful.
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  #126  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:43 AM
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Automatically assuming she's lying is the sort of thing that Trump and his supporters do. We should be better than that. It doesn't mean anyone has to believe her, but the accusation should be taken seriously and the accuser should not be denigrated, not without strong evidence she's lying.
Skepticism is not an assumption of lying. There is reason to be skeptical here.
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  #127  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:44 AM
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Automatically assuming she's lying is the sort of thing that Trump and his supporters do. We should be better than that. It doesn't mean anyone has to believe her, but the accusation should be taken seriously and the accuser should not be denigrated, not without strong evidence she's lying.
As far as I am concerned we have that strong evidence.

She changed her story several times, and now waited for this moment to up it to rape, and she has strong political motives.
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Old 03-28-2020, 11:47 AM
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As far as I am concerned we have that strong evidence.

She changed her story several times, and now waited for this moment to up it to rape, and she has strong political motives.
What evidence? All we have is sufficient cause to be skeptical and to allow time for more investigation and evidence to come forward.
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  #129  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:55 AM
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What evidence? All we have is sufficient cause to be skeptical and to allow time for more investigation and evidence to come forward.
Her own testimony is proof that this didnt happen. What better evidence do you need?
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Old 03-28-2020, 12:02 PM
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Her own testimony is proof that this didnt happen. What better evidence do you need?
Maybe I haven't been following this closely enough. Nothing in the reporting I've read suggest the proof you're alleging. If you're talking about the fact that she didn't disclose the full extent of the alleged assault previously, then I'm not sure how that constitutes proof. It's hardly the first time that women have withheld full details of an assault, for understandable reasons.
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  #131  
Old 03-28-2020, 12:17 PM
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Many folks, and unfortunately many Democrats, still haven't taken the lessons of #MeToo to heart. It's more important than politics. And one of the biggest lessons is not to jump to conclusions, especially about the motives of an accuser. There's no hurry in this case.
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Old 03-28-2020, 12:25 PM
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Yes, there is a hurry. FFS, dude.
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Old 03-28-2020, 12:39 PM
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NY primary moved to June 23 from April . So does Sanders stay until late June? I say he does . That's only 3 weeks before the Dem convention.
  #134  
Old 03-28-2020, 12:43 PM
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One thing that has me questioning the accusation is the casualness of how it happened. It almost seems like a spur of the moment action, and if that's the case, I would expect it to happen a lot. I can't imagine him being so bold if that was the first and only time he has done that. I would expect a Cosby or Weinstein type of person to act like that, so it will be interesting to see what kind of other allegations come forward. I know it's not proof, but if no one else comes forward, I'm less likely to believe things happened as she states.
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Old 03-28-2020, 12:46 PM
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Automatically assuming she's lying is the sort of thing that Trump and his supporters do.
I am not sure that is correct. I do recall a Republican that departed from public life due to a thing about airport bathrooms, but he did not resign, as such, he stayed in office until his term expired.

See, they do not even care. Their attitude is, “Fuck your pansy-ass sensitivity, because our agenda is far more important than someone's delicate fee-fees.” Non-Republicans leave in disgrace, but Republicans, just about to a man, just push on, because, they are men and do not let that PC BS get in their way.
  #136  
Old 03-28-2020, 12:51 PM
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Yes, there is a hurry. FFS, dude.
There's a hurry for the party to get to the bottom of it as much as they can, but there's no hurry for us rank and file Democrats to make a conclusion about it.
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  #137  
Old 03-28-2020, 12:54 PM
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My GF says she is not lying. Of course she's also a very big Sanders person. She's already calling Biden a sexual predator.
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Old 03-28-2020, 12:58 PM
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One thing that has me questioning the accusation is the casualness of how it happened. It almost seems like a spur of the moment action, and if that's the case, I would expect it to happen a lot. I can't imagine him being so bold if that was the first and only time he has done that. I would expect a Cosby or Weinstein type of person to act like that, so it will be interesting to see what kind of other allegations come forward. I know it's not proof, but if no one else comes forward, I'm less likely to believe things happened as she states.
I was hoping somebody would open the door to wild speculation. Here's my reason for being skeptical and the need for further investigation. In the linked Newsweek article, two quotes spring out at me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tara Reade
"I'm not going to get traditional justice, like with [Harvey] Weinstein's case," she said. "I'm looking for something more existential—to not have to keep a secret because it's somebody powerful."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Collin Mooulton (brother)
"Woefully, I did not encourage her to follow up,"
<bolding mine>

I'm not remotely an expert in interrogation methods of language patterns. But it's been my anecdotal experience that when people use poorly fitting language or extraneously descriptive words, they are not being completely honest or are trying to hide something.
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  #139  
Old 03-28-2020, 01:04 PM
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this is actually not correct
You need to say what is correct to make this claim.
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Old 03-28-2020, 01:25 PM
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Fiendishly clever analysis. But this strategy must have some plausibility to it. Unfortunately, Biden has seen fit to oblige.
I've never been called "fiendishly clever" before. I kind of like it. The strategy explains much going back to the "daisy ad" of 1964 to the Swift Boaters in 2004. And while "some plausibility" always helps, it really isn't a "must have". There's that old LBJ story.................


https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dr...cker-strategy/
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Old 03-28-2020, 01:48 PM
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It's possible that this "sexual assault" is a one-off event but typically, predators who commit one assault are likely to have committed others. If we have several more women coming out saying 'Well actually, this happened to me too,' then I think that would be impossible to ignore, and we would probably have to consider dumping him then.

There's clearly a pattern of behavior of making women feel uncomfortable - there's no disputing this. The newest allegations are a matter of degree. In pretty much all of the cases that were reported last summer, it just seems more along the lines of behaviors that were silently tolerated once upon a time but are widely acknowledged to be inappropriate but not outright penetration of private parts.

I admittedly cringe as I write this because I don't in any way want to minimize the fact that even making feel women physically and psychologically uncomfortable is a serious matter. Nor do I want to get into hair splitting.
  #142  
Old 03-28-2020, 02:07 PM
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You need to say what is correct to make this claim.
The SCotUS seat stolen from Obama went to Gorsuch. Unless you want to assert that the Oval Office was stolen (for which one might be able to make a case), technically, the Kavanaugh seat was not stolen from a D PotUS.
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Old 03-28-2020, 02:24 PM
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I can turn the ceiling fan off because all of this hand waiving is circulating the air nicely. It sounds exactly like what the GOP said during the Kavanaugh confirmation.

FTR, I don't believe her either. The timing is absurd. I do not support meaningless "investigations" which will leave us at the same place where we started. I also do not support them because I don't want a future where every public figure can have their life derailed because of one single liar, or a handful of them, out of a country of 320 million people.

Yes, it is emotionally difficult to pursue sexual assault allegations. But if you want to do it, you cannot wait 25 to 35 years to do it. You forfeit your chance. The accused has rights as well. Women are no longer delicate flowers. You want to make an allegation, then do it with some deliberate speed.
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Old 03-28-2020, 02:37 PM
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Automatically assuming she's lying is the sort of thing that Trump and his supporters do. We should be better than that. It doesn't mean anyone has to believe her, but the accusation should be taken seriously and the accuser should not be denigrated, not without strong evidence she's lying.
And if the accused denies it, should the accused be denigrated without strong evidence he is lying?
  #145  
Old 03-28-2020, 02:41 PM
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I can turn the ceiling fan off because all of this hand waiving is circulating the air nicely. It sounds exactly like what the GOP said during the Kavanaugh confirmation.
Only about half the posts sound similar to the stuff said by the GOP during the Kavanaugh hearings.

The rest of it sounds like iiandyiiii trying to make Bernie happen.

Quote:
FTR, I don't believe her either. The timing is absurd. I do not support meaningless "investigations" which will leave us at the same place where we started. I also do not support them because I don't want a future where every public figure can have their life derailed because of one single liar, or a handful of them, out of a country of 320 million people.

Yes, it is emotionally difficult to pursue sexual assault allegations. But if you want to do it, you cannot wait 25 to 35 years to do it. You forfeit your chance. The accused has rights as well. Women are no longer delicate flowers. You want to make an allegation, then do it with some deliberate speed.
I think you can wait as long as you like if you have physical evidence. but you can't wait over 10 years to bring a claim based on he said/she said and expect that people believe you.
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Old 03-28-2020, 02:43 PM
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And if the accused denies it, should the accused be denigrated without strong evidence he is lying?
I'm not really concerned about changing the way society treats accused people, since society generally supports and defends powerful men accused of sexual assault. The exceptions are extremely rare.
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Old 03-28-2020, 02:44 PM
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For the record, I'm approaching this accusation the exact same way I approached the allegations against Franken, Louis CK, Kavanaugh, and Trump (and many others, for that matter). I have a long history of posts which demonstrate this. My response has absolutely nothing to do with my support for Bernie Sanders (who is extremely unlikely to get the nomination at this point).

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  #148  
Old 03-28-2020, 02:44 PM
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  #149  
Old 03-28-2020, 03:07 PM
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I can turn the ceiling fan off because all of this hand waiving is circulating the air nicely. It sounds exactly like what the GOP said during the Kavanaugh confirmation.....
I had grave doubts about that also, since memories that old arent reliable.

Mind you, that's not saying she was lying, as even if her memories are false, they are still what she knows.

You can be 100% truthful, but your story could be 100% false.
  #150  
Old 03-28-2020, 03:50 PM
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All Biden needs to do is say "it's absolutely false, and right now we are in the midst of a life and death crisis and we don't have time for this bullshit." Never apologize, never back down. If he does ANYTHING other than this, he's a self destructive fool. And anyone trying to hamstring Biden, from the left, on this, might as well be going around yanking out ventilator tubes.

I have resigned to the fact that Biden is our only horse here so stay the fuck out of his way.
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