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  #201  
Old 03-30-2020, 11:15 AM
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As a parallel, this is exactly the reason that this won't get nearly the traction you want to provide for real change. Racism was/is treated the same way and we are still bumbling our way through that because you can't just turn the tables and call it fair. AA, is a racist way to go about providing diversity. Believing the woman but doing nothing to insulate the accused is having the same effect.

Fair is fair, across the board.
Ok, one more American coming out against the Kavenaugh nomination!

A little late for you to come to this party, but your presence is welcome.
  #202  
Old 03-30-2020, 11:56 AM
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Without conflating racism, affirmative action and why progressives are always getting everything wrong, provide a way to make it safe for women to come forward with allegations of sexual assault and have the accused be "insulated" from negative impact. Demonstrate how this process can be made more fair to all parties involved.
How about you keep all names out of the press? Which will never happen, as I have heard, HERE on this very board, they are fine with them being tried in the court of public opinion.

Except, that isn't JUST, it's politicizing it.

Last edited by Kearsen1; 03-30-2020 at 12:00 PM.
  #203  
Old 03-30-2020, 12:02 PM
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Ok, one more American coming out against the Kavenaugh nomination!

A little late for you to come to this party, but your presence is welcome.
I am assuming you meant this as some type of gotcha, but I am honestly confused by this viewpoint?
In the Kavanaugh hearings, the evidence/testimony wasn't credible enough, criminally, or civilly to stop a confirmation so?

Last edited by Kearsen1; 03-30-2020 at 12:02 PM.
  #204  
Old 03-30-2020, 02:39 PM
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what andy and others are saying about Biden and this allegation is some of the stupidest shit Ive ever read from anyone on the left
That is like saying, yeah, so you have a big open wound on your hand, just ignore it and press on, it will be fine. There are people saying that, well, this thing ought to be at least looked into you seem to think that letting sit there and fester is the winning strategy. I have some serious misgivings about that.
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Old 03-30-2020, 03:08 PM
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This is all entirely irrelevant for this thread.
I am responding to a post where you specifically say you are not concerned with how society treats the accused.

I am merely pointing out how stupid that statement is
  #206  
Old 03-30-2020, 03:23 PM
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I am responding to a post where you specifically say you are not concerned with how society treats the accused.

I am merely pointing out how stupid that statement is
Sounds like saying "ALL LIVES MATTER!!!" over and over again in a BLM thread. Irrelevant to that discussion.
  #207  
Old 03-30-2020, 04:43 PM
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That is like saying, yeah, so you have a big open wound on your hand, just ignore it and press on, it will be fine. There are people saying that, well, this thing ought to be at least looked into you seem to think that letting sit there and fester is the winning strategy. I have some serious misgivings about that.
It's not like that though. It's not getting picked up by other news outlets. ie it's not festering. Andy wants exploratory surgery on a paper cut.
  #208  
Old 03-30-2020, 04:47 PM
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It's not like that though. It's not getting picked up by other news outlets. ie it's not festering. Andy wants exploratory surgery on a paper cut.
We'll see. Hopefully this is all going on behind the scenes and we'll know more soon.
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Old 03-30-2020, 04:59 PM
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No, hopefully we won't know more soon. That's what will happen when they don't find anything bad.
  #210  
Old 03-30-2020, 05:09 PM
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This has been predicted before, that #MeToo opens up the possibility of weaponizing fictional allegations -- and that it's somehow easy to manufacture credible accusations. I don't buy it. This would require finding women who have had verifiable contact with Biden in the past, a willingness to lie in a life-changing way for politics, and eliminate the traces of connections with the political fixers trying to make it happen.
Exit polls in 2016 showed that 52% of white women (who voted) voted for Trump, despite him being Trump. While exit polls are not that reliable, I don't share your optimism that 0% of them are willing to lie or exaggerate for politics, especially since the 'life changing way' could lead to a lot of money down the road. Also, a lot of your conditions are incorrect - they don't need to be credible by your standards, just credible enough to motivate already-shaky Democrats to stay home and those mythical 'independent voters' to say 'they both suck' and walk away. They don't need to have had verifiable contact, they just need contact that can't be disproved. And they don't need to lack all traces of connections with 'political fixers', they just need to lack a pre-existing blatant connection.

Anyone who doesn't believe that Republicans are going to unleash sexual harassment allegations against the Democratic candidate before the election is going to be in for a rude awakening later on this year, unless something exceptionally weird happens. ("Exceptionally weird" meaning something like Coronavirus kills one or multiple candidates and completely upsets plans). And the fact that Biden didn't have a clear response to something this predictable ready and waiting is really troubling for those of us who really don't want to see Trump win in 2020.
  #211  
Old 03-30-2020, 05:25 PM
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Exit polls in 2016 showed that 52% of white women (who voted) voted for Trump, despite him being Trump. While exit polls are not that reliable, I don't share your optimism that 0% of them are willing to lie or exaggerate for politics, especially since the 'life changing way' could lead to a lot of money down the road. Also, a lot of your conditions are incorrect - they don't need to be credible by your standards, just credible enough to motivate already-shaky Democrats to stay home and those mythical 'independent voters' to say 'they both suck' and walk away. They don't need to have had verifiable contact, they just need contact that can't be disproved. And they don't need to lack all traces of connections with 'political fixers', they just need to lack a pre-existing blatant connection.

Anyone who doesn't believe that Republicans are going to unleash sexual harassment allegations against the Democratic candidate before the election is going to be in for a rude awakening later on this year, unless something exceptionally weird happens. ("Exceptionally weird" meaning something like Coronavirus kills one or multiple candidates and completely upsets plans). And the fact that Biden didn't have a clear response to something this predictable ready and waiting is really troubling for those of us who really don't want to see Trump win in 2020.
Unverified, non-credible allegations are just internet noise. They already exist, and always have (at least since the internet and social media existed), and there's nothing that can be done about them. There are probably a thousand or more such things on twitter right now.

The one sparking this thread got some attention in relatively prominent outlets (Vox and the Hill, for example). That doesn't mean it's credible, but the vast majority of internet-noise-allegations don't make it this far. I don't buy that it's easy to manufacture allegations that get on places like Vox and the Hill.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-30-2020 at 05:27 PM.
  #212  
Old 03-30-2020, 06:38 PM
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The Hill is not "relatively prominent" by any stretch. Vox has a deserved decent rep but I bet not one in a thousand Americans know what it is.
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Old 03-30-2020, 06:50 PM
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No, hopefully we won't know more soon. That's what will happen when they don't find anything bad.
If there is nothing there, then we really do need to know that. Not knowing it leaves a hole for the Rs to throw shit into.
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Old 03-30-2020, 06:53 PM
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Exit polls in 2016 showed that 52% of white women (who voted) voted for Trump, despite him being Trump. ...

Anyone who doesn't believe that Republicans are going to unleash sexual harassment allegations against the Democratic candidate before the election is going to be in for a rude awakening later on this year, unless something exceptionally weird happens. (.
Cite? Since most people didnt vote for trump.

Sure they are, and they would do that same for anyone else. I am sure they had worse ready for Sanders.


Just dont listen to the lies.
  #215  
Old 03-30-2020, 07:06 PM
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Cite?
here is one
  #216  
Old 03-30-2020, 07:11 PM
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The Hill is not "relatively prominent" by any stretch. Vox has a deserved decent rep but I bet not one in a thousand Americans know what it is.
Whatever. They're real professional news outlets, even if they're not very big. The Hill sucks in a lot of ways, but it employs real professional journalists.
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  #217  
Old 03-30-2020, 07:22 PM
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Whoopy for them. You said prominent, not that they pay their employees
  #218  
Old 03-30-2020, 07:25 PM
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Whoopy for them. You said prominent, not that they pay their employees
I've heard of them, and they're not bullshit outlets like Breitbart, so they're somewhat prominent. YMMV.
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  #219  
Old 03-30-2020, 07:34 PM
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Ok, I'm not going argue about what you could just look up in the dictionary.
  #220  
Old 03-30-2020, 08:19 PM
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Okay, I'll amend it to "prominent among those who closely follow politics". Happy?
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  #221  
Old 03-30-2020, 09:43 PM
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I don't agree that saying the same thing to every accusation, regardless of known information, is correct. I believe that is what conservatives want, to pin liberals into a box so that they can then exploit it as a weakness. False accusers may be rare, but they exist, and thus the other side can find them.

What is different here remains that the accuser changed her story, previously alleging sexual harassment, but now details what is full on rape, with stereotypical quotes. Her first version didn't get traction, so she changed it.

Unlike the stuff that conservatives often bring up, materially changing your story to the point the offense changes greatly increases the likelihood of lying. It has nothing to do with the party of the accused, just evaluating the evidence we currently have. The accusation itself is part of that.

Yes, conservatives will try and argue that we are just showing favoritism, because that is the usual line against our moral choices--that thy are fake. But accepting even someone who seems like a liar at face value has consequences, too. And those consequences can be worse than people saying we're partisan.
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  #222  
Old 03-30-2020, 10:11 PM
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As a parallel, this is exactly the reason that this won't get nearly the traction you want to provide for real change. Racism was/is treated the same way and we are still bumbling our way through that because you can't just turn the tables and call it fair. AA, is a racist way to go about providing diversity. Believing the woman but doing nothing to insulate the accused is having the same effect.

Fair is fair, across the board.
Except none of this is true. AA is basically not a thing. No one uses it. We use other things. And racial relations have only gotten better, not worse, as has racial equality in general.

Furthermore, few really care about the accused, as they don't bring it up except in situations where they doubt the accusation. As soon as they finally get enough to be convinced, all the talk about the rights of the accused goes out the window. And it's always sexual crimes that require more proof to reach that line.

By and large, the accused doesn't get much consequence, particularly if they are powerful. Unless there is enough proof for most people, the accused gets off free with some naysayers. It thus, in general, does not make sense to care about the accused than the alleged victim.

You'll note that, despite my posts, I never once talks about how sad it would be for Biden if this caught on and derailed his campaign. His feelings do not matter to me on this. Compare that with Kavenaugh and all the claims of it being not fair, as if that was the important part. While liberals kept pointing out that he could just have been replaced with a different conservative judge so it wouldn't hurt your goals, even though telling you this was obviously against our own goals.

And that, BTW, is what shuts down the idea that our position there was partisan. Or, at least, it should. But, as I said, such is one of the best tools of the opposition. Make one's enemy out to be a hypocrite, and one doesn't actually have to take any position oneself.
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  #223  
Old 03-31-2020, 07:37 AM
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Cite? Since most people didnt vote for trump.
This is a pretty well-known and often discussed fact, but here's a variety of places discussing it. Also (since this is The Dope where people love to ignore large portions of a post) let me point out that I specifically narrowed it to 'white women' 'who voted'.

https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...misleading-re/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-among-whites/
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...republican-why

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Sure they are, and they would do that same for anyone else. I am sure they had worse ready for Sanders.

Just dont listen to the lies.
It's exactly this kind of limp response that has me worried about Biden's chances - 'oh, I'm sure they had worse for Sanders, just don't listen to it' is utterly pointless to say to me, but isn't exactly a convincing rebuttal for anyone who's not. I'm hoping they just don't feel that this is credible enough to worry about, and are saving their more solid response for later in the year.
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Old 03-31-2020, 07:41 AM
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Unverified, non-credible allegations are just internet noise. They already exist, and always have (at least since the internet and social media existed), and there's nothing that can be done about them. There are probably a thousand or more such things on twitter right now.
You are in for a seriously eye opening experience once the primaries are over and the Trump campaign really opens up on the Democratic nominee. I would have thought that the history of Pizzagate and all of the other unverified, non-credible allegations about Hillary Clinton would been example enough, but apparently not.

Last edited by Pantastic; 03-31-2020 at 07:42 AM.
  #225  
Old 03-31-2020, 07:46 AM
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You are in for a seriously eye opening experience once the primaries are over and the Trump campaign really opens up on the Democratic nominee. I would have thought that the history of Pizzagate and all of the other unverified, non-credible allegations about Hillary Clinton would been example enough, but apparently not.
Of course all that stuff is going to happen. I won't be surprised at all. This doesn't dispute anything I've said.
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Old 03-31-2020, 11:44 AM
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The one route I doubt the Republicans will go down is the sexual assault one given their leader.
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:06 PM
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The one route I doubt the Republicans will go down is the sexual assault one given their leader.
Then you must be nave. Republicans realize that Democrats experience this "shame" thing and, though they do quite understand what that is, they will use it against the Democrats as much as they possibly can.
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:14 PM
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The one route I doubt the Republicans will go down is the sexual assault one given their leader.
Trump already went through that process four years ago (Access Hollywood tape, Stormy Daniels, golden showers, etc.) so there isn't much further he can fall, in public opinion, in that regard. He already hit rock bottom and yet still won the presidency. So from the Republican perspective, there isn't much left to fear.

Biden, on the hand, is vulnerable, because his party is the party of #MeToo, and his voters are somewhat likelier to refrain from voting for him due to concerns over such allegations than Trump voters are to refrain from voting for Trump.
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:27 PM
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Trump already went through that process four years ago (Access Hollywood tape, Stormy Daniels, golden showers, etc.) so there isn't much further he can fall, in public opinion, in that regard.
I think this demonstrates one of the primary differences, which I've seen again and again, in how people see these issues. You (like many others I've seen) lumped all these together -- even though just one of them (the "grab em by the..." tape) has anything to do with sexual assault or rape. Consensual sex is entirely different from sexual assault and rape.
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:32 PM
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Then you must be nave. Republicans realize that Democrats experience this "shame" thing and, though they do quite understand what that is, they will use it against the Democrats as much as they possibly can.
I think the thorough and public investigation is the naive plan. You and andy falling straight into the shame trap.
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:48 PM
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I think the thorough and public investigation is the naive plan. You and andy falling straight into the shame trap.
Doesn't necessarily need to be public, depending on the findings. If the accusation is legit, then definitely make it public, since there will probably be many more and we'll need a new candidate. If it's bogus, then the proof of bogusness (bogosity?) can be released through side-channels to avoid the Streisand effect.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:01 PM
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I think the thorough and public investigation is the naive plan. You and andy falling straight into the shame trap.
I, personally, am not falling into any "shame trap", because I feel genuine, increasing hostility toward the piece of shambling human pablum who is destined to make sure that Catastrophe-ONE remains in the WhiteHouse.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:04 PM
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There is very unlikely to be some solid evidence of bogusness any more than solid evidence of truth. Releasing an ambiguous report is only going to accomplish putting into the news again, side channel or not.

And your dislike of Biden does not do your suggestion any favors. You aren't suggesting a prudent path. You would be happy if he got sunk by this.

Last edited by CarnalK; 03-31-2020 at 01:06 PM.
  #234  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:12 PM
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There is very unlikely to be some solid evidence of bogusness any more than solid evidence of truth.
Maybe. Can't know this without a thorough investigation. Are you arguing that the Democrats should totally ignore this and any other accusation?

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You would be happy if he got sunk by this.
Only if it were very soon! Also, only if he's guilty, since my dislike of Biden doesn't extend to the point that I think he deserves to be sunk by false accusations. I don't think I'd wish that on anyone!

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  #235  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:24 PM
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Maybe. Can't know this without a thorough investigation. Are you arguing that the Democrats should totally ignore this and any other accusation?


..!
What investigation can be done?

Her: He raped me. Sure I changed my story three times, and it's clear this new attack is politically motivated, but you have to believe me, that's the rules.

Joe. I didn't.

There's no video, no witnesses. Nothing to investigate.

The only reason for a "investigation" is to get this shameful bit of cheap GOP & Kremlin swiftboating more out in the public eye. And of course people calling for a "investigation" know that, they just want to torpedo Joe.

Note that hurting Biden only means trump wins. It doesnt mean Sanders rides in on a white charger to glory and victory. That is over and done.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:38 PM
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What investigation can be done?
Lots can be done. Interview the accuser. Interview Biden. Interview people who knew either and both of them at the time. Check their background and associates.

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And of course people calling for a "investigation" know that, they just want to torpedo Joe.
Is it really that hard to believe that some people think this stuff is hugely important and always worth finding out the truth about?

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Note that hurting Biden only means trump wins. It doesnt mean Sanders rides in on a white charger to glory and victory. That is over and done.
This may be true -- and if so, it's imperative that the party find out if this is one of many, or just random nonsense, ASAP. If it's the first of many, we may need to find a new candidate. If we just ignore it, this could sink the party's chances altogether.
  #237  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:39 PM
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Sounds like saying "ALL LIVES MATTER!!!" over and over again in a BLM thread. Irrelevant to that discussion.
You SPECIFICALLY said:

"I'm not really concerned about changing the way society treats accused people, since society generally supports and defends powerful men accused of sexual assault. The exceptions are extremely rare."

I point out that historically, society frequently treats the accused very poorly. And you think is irrelevant?
  #238  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:41 PM
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Sounds like saying "ALL LIVES MATTER!!!" over and over again in a BLM thread. Irrelevant to that discussion.
If someone said that Black lives matter and they were not at all concerned about the lives of cops and people who aren't black then it would in fact be relevant to say that al;l lives matter.

But I have never actually seen anyone in a BLM thread saying that the lives of cops and non-black people don't matter.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:41 PM
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Maybe. Can't know this without a thorough investigation. Are you arguing that the Democrats should totally ignore this and any other accusation?
Other than Biden's denial, yes. Absolutely. This should only be mentioned again by anyone if something bad turns up in a very quiet investigation.
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Only if it were very soon! Also, only if he's guilty, since my dislike of Biden doesn't extend to the point that I think he deserves to be sunk by false accusations. I don't think I'd wish that on anyone!
Well, I was specifically responding to eschereal there with that line who just said "I feel genuine, increasing hostility toward the piece of shambling human pablum". Her helpful suggestions parallel yours, however.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:46 PM
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You SPECIFICALLY said:

"I'm not really concerned about changing the way society treats accused people, since society generally supports and defends powerful men accused of sexual assault. The exceptions are extremely rare."

I point out that historically, society frequently treats the accused very poorly. And you think is irrelevant?
Society doesn't treat wealthy and influential accused poorly, historically and today.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:48 PM
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What investigation can be done?

Her: He raped me. Sure I changed my story three times, and it's clear this new attack is politically motivated, but you have to believe me, that's the rules.

Joe. I didn't.

There's no video, no witnesses. Nothing to investigate.
Evidence is not impossible, just unlikely. If she had a dated diary entry that said "Biden just raped me today. Brian and Jan told me to shut up.about it" and Brian and Jan corroborate, that's evidence. I'm sure you've been told something similar before this thread.

Last edited by CarnalK; 03-31-2020 at 01:49 PM.
  #242  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:48 PM
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If someone said that Black lives matter and they were not at all concerned about the lives of cops and people who aren't black then it would in fact be relevant to say that al;l lives matter.

But I have never actually seen anyone in a BLM thread saying that the lives of cops and non-black people don't matter.
And I didn't say that the accused don't matter -- I'm just not concerned about the way society treats wealthy/influential accused, just like I'm not concerned about the way cops treat rich white suburbanites. They matter, and society already treats them like they matter. I'm concerned about the house that's burning down, not the pristine mansion down the street with a state-of-the-art fire suppression system.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:51 PM
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Wouldn't it make more sense that the woman go to the local police where it allegedly happened and file a report. Then a grand jury could hear it and decide if there is evidence for an indictment? Isn't that how the system is supposed to work?
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Last edited by pool; 03-31-2020 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:52 PM
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Wouldn't it make more sense that the woman go to the local police where it allegedly happen and file a report. Then a grand jury could hear it and decide if there is evidence for an indictment? Isn't that how the system is supposed to work?
It happened 27 years ago.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:55 PM
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It happened 27 years ago.
Right but what other option is there for an investigation? It seems if she was serious in her accusation she would go to the police right?
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:00 PM
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Evidence is not impossible, just unlikely. If she had a dated diary entry that said "Biden just raped me today. Brian and Jan told me to shut up.about it" and Brian and Jan corroborate, that's evidence. I'm sure you've been told something similar before this thread.
But she doesnt.
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:00 PM
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Right but what other option is there for an investigation? It seems if she was serious in her accusation she would go to the police right?
No, because the statute of limitations is way the fuck gone past. So going to the police would be useless at this point.

If you are just making some roundabout point about how it's "too late" then lets stop talking right now.

Last edited by CarnalK; 03-31-2020 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:05 PM
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No, because the statute of limitations is way the fuck gone past. So going to the police would be useless at this point.

If you are just making some roundabout point about how it's "too late" then lets stop talking right now.
Oh I didn't read what state it was in, what state did it happen in by the way?
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:14 PM
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So you haven't a single clue about this story? You read the title and thought "why doesn't she just call the police?"

Last edited by CarnalK; 03-31-2020 at 02:18 PM.
  #250  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:14 PM
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It seems on her twitter account she was complimentary about Biden up to 2018 but then started posting about Biden doing favors for the DuPont company (Delaware) and supporting an investigation into Ukraine. Nothing about assault. She also coincidentally went from tweeting/retweeting anti-Putin commentary in the first year of the Trump presidency (when she was praising Biden) to writing fawning blogs about Putin.
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