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  #251  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:15 PM
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But she doesnt.
Where are you getting all this absolutely indisputable information?
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  #252  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:15 PM
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So you haven't a single clue about this story?
Some clues
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  #253  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:22 PM
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Feel free to demonstrate even a single one of them.
  #254  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:26 PM
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Feel free to demonstrate even a single one of them.
Joe Biden
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  #255  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:29 PM
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Ok, then. Guess we're all drinking a little more with the lockdowns.
  #256  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:31 PM
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Ok, then. Guess we're all drinking a little more with the lockdowns.
At least you didn't have to have the last word though.
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  #257  
Old 03-31-2020, 03:01 PM
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So, have you googled what year and state this happened in or the statute of limitations? Or are you still waiting for me to do that for you?
  #258  
Old 03-31-2020, 03:15 PM
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Look, it’s not worth investigating if you’re not guaranteed to prove it happened, or if it’s, like, hard to do, or might take a while or whatever. So let’s drop it, okay?

/sarcasm
  #259  
Old 03-31-2020, 03:29 PM
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Look, itís not worth investigating if youíre not guaranteed to prove it happened, or if itís, like, hard to do, or might take a while or whatever. So letís drop it, okay?

/sarcasm
Put on your rosiest glasses and tell me what you think an investigation might turn up.
  #260  
Old 03-31-2020, 06:03 PM
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So, have you googled what year and state this happened in or the statute of limitations? Or are you still waiting for me to do that for you?
Hope springs eternal, I'm still waiting on you to fight my ignorance.
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  #261  
Old 03-31-2020, 06:11 PM
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Well, you can give up now. You are way too boring to drag me into anything.
  #262  
Old 03-31-2020, 06:44 PM
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  #263  
Old 03-31-2020, 10:58 PM
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Society doesn't treat wealthy and influential accused poorly, historically and today.
So if you are changing your initial statement to say that society doesn't treat wealthy and influential accused poorly, then I guess that's fine but it really makes your statement pretty fucking obvious. Wealthy influential murderers don't typically get treated very poorly either.

But that is a very different statement than saying that you just don't care about how society treats accused people. We have several constitutional amendment and a long history of jurisprudence that was developed because of people with your attitude towards the accused.

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  #264  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:04 PM
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And I didn't say that the accused don't matter -- I'm just not concerned about the way society treats wealthy/influential accused, just like I'm not concerned about the way cops treat rich white suburbanites. They matter, and society already treats them like they matter. I'm concerned about the house that's burning down, not the pristine mansion down the street with a state-of-the-art fire suppression system.
That's not what you said. You said: "I'm not really concerned about changing the way society treats accused people, since society generally supports and defends powerful men accused of sexual assault. The exceptions are extremely rare."

Now it seems like you are dialing back your ridiculous statement to one that is slightly less ridiculous but still pretty hard to justify.

It seems like you are amending your initial statement to say: I'm not really concerned about changing the way society treats wealthy/influential accused people, since society generally supports and defends powerful men accused of sexual assault. The exceptions are extremely rare.

So we owe no duty of fairness to wealthy people? At what point is someone wealthy/influential? At what point do they lose the presumption of innocence and the benefits of due process?
  #265  
Old 04-01-2020, 04:15 AM
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That's not what you said. You said: "I'm not really concerned about changing the way society treats accused people, since society generally supports and defends powerful men accused of sexual assault. The exceptions are extremely rare."



Now it seems like you are dialing back your ridiculous statement to one that is slightly less ridiculous but still pretty hard to justify.



It seems like you are amending your initial statement to say: I'm not really concerned about changing the way society treats wealthy/influential accused people, since society generally supports and defends powerful men accused of sexual assault. The exceptions are extremely rare.



So we owe no duty of fairness to wealthy people? At what point is someone wealthy/influential? At what point do they lose the presumption of innocence and the benefits of due process?
This is a dumb and boring disagreement.
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  #266  
Old 04-01-2020, 08:08 AM
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So you haven't a single clue about this story? You read the title and thought "why doesn't she just call the police?"
I think that every time I hear about a sexual assault case, past , present or future so it really isn't just pool that thinks this.

If they do not go to the police when it happens, it makes it incredibly hard to "investigate" like iiiandyiii would like.


At the end of the day, most all of the allegation(s) that get investigated 5, 10, 27 years later is going to come down to hearsay but hey at least we got that "investigation"!

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  #267  
Old 04-01-2020, 08:12 AM
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Look, itís not worth investigating if youíre not guaranteed to prove it happened, or if itís, like, hard to do, or might take a while or whatever. So letís drop it, okay?

/sarcasm
By all means, investigate. What you shouldn't do during the investigation (a quiet OUT OF THE PUBLIC ONE) is smear the accused.

But most folks on board with the investigation (iiiandyiii) don't give a rats ass about the accused, only the accuser.

Well, because false accusations don't really hurt, and it happens so infrequently and all that jazz.
  #268  
Old 04-01-2020, 08:45 AM
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Snark aside, have you considered the possibility that some human beings actually really, really care about this issue and take it very seriously?
Don't be silly, only women care about this stuff - male politicians only pretend to so they can get the female vote! /RepublicanProjectionism
  #269  
Old 04-01-2020, 08:59 AM
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I think that every time I hear about a sexual assault case, past , present or future so it really isn't just pool that thinks this.

If they do not go to the police when it happens, it makes it incredibly hard to "investigate" like iiiandyiii would like.


At the end of the day, most all of the allegation(s) that get investigated 5, 10, 27 years later is going to come down to hearsay but hey at least we got that "investigation"!
Do you think that a crime like sexual assault is qualitatively different from a crime like physical assault? Why or why not?

Can you imagine a scenario in which a victim of sexual assault may not come forward to report the crime in a timely manner? What might those circumstances look like?

Is there a window of time after which a victim should/may not come forward? What is that time frame in your opinion?

What are some of the reasons that compel a sexual assault victim to finally come forward with their accusation?
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  #270  
Old 04-01-2020, 09:25 AM
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Do you think that a crime like sexual assault is qualitatively different from a crime like physical assault? Why or why not?

Can you imagine a scenario in which a victim of sexual assault may not come forward to report the crime in a timely manner? What might those circumstances look like?

Is there a window of time after which a victim should/may not come forward? What is that time frame in your opinion?

What are some of the reasons that compel a sexual assault victim to finally come forward with their accusation?
I can imagine lots of scenarios that would make it unlikely or even possibly harmful for the accuser to come forward. However, my issue isn't with them not coming forward in a timely manner. My issue is what the Metoo movement has turned the public into.

Believe the accuser. check!
Perform investigation. check!
When investigation brings forth not enough credibility (and therefore fails in the eyes of the accuser and the eyes of those who believe them) smear the accused. check!

And this is clearly evidenced in the Kavanaugh hearing. People on this message board still regularly tout that Kavanaugh is guilty, shouldn't be a judge etc etc

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  #271  
Old 04-01-2020, 09:27 AM
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I can imagine lots of scenarios that would make it unlikely or even possibly harmful for the accuser to come forward. However, my issue isn't with them not coming forward in a timely manner. My issue is what the Metoo movement has turned the public into.

Believe the accuser. check!
Perform investigation. check!
When investigation brings forth not enough credibility (and therefore fails in the eyes of the accuser and the eyes of those who believe them) smear the accused. check!
This hasn't remotely occurred. It's not even an accurate description of #MeToo, except for the "investigation" part.
  #272  
Old 04-01-2020, 09:32 AM
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This hasn't remotely occurred. It's not even an accurate description of #MeToo, except for the "investigation" part.
Please enlighten me then.
I will state up front that I am uninterested in you establishing that I have the burden of proof here. The proof is all over the boards.

One (ok, maybe 2)question for YOU: Do YOU believe Kavanaugh is a sexual predator, and do you feel that it was proven?
  #273  
Old 04-01-2020, 09:46 AM
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I can imagine lots of scenarios that would make it unlikely or even possibly harmful for the accuser to come forward. However, my issue isn't with them not coming forward in a timely manner. My issue is what the Metoo movement has turned the public into.
For a very long time women were often not believed. So the inclination to change how society reacts is to the good, in my opinion. If there has been some over-reaction, that's just society striking a new comfortable balance in their response.

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Believe the accuser. check!
Perform investigation. check!
When investigation brings forth not enough credibility (and therefore fails in the eyes of the accuser and the eyes of those who believe them) smear the accused. check!

And this is clearly evidenced in the Kavanaugh hearing. People on this message board still regularly tout that Kavanaugh is guilty, shouldn't be a judge etc etc
Kavanaugh was as much about politics as about the alleged assault and MeToo. But even more than that, among his detractors, it was his general demeanor and unlike-able personality that really set people's teeth on edge. I think he showed himself to be of unsuitable character for the position of a SCJ. But, "I think the guy is a jerk", was not a justifiable reason to deny him this nomination. So people cleaved more closely to the belief that he was a sexual predator who got away with it.
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  #274  
Old 04-01-2020, 09:54 AM
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For a very long time women were often not believed. So the inclination to change how society reacts is to the good, in my opinion. If there has been some over-reaction, that's just society striking a new comfortable balance in their response.



Kavanaugh was as much about politics as about the alleged assault and MeToo. But even more than that, among his detractors, it was his general demeanor and unlike-able personality that really set people's teeth on edge. I think he showed himself to be of unsuitable character for the position of a SCJ. But, "I think the guy is a jerk", was not a justifiable reason to deny him this nomination. So people cleaved more closely to the belief that he was a sexual predator who got away with it.
I agree with this entire clarification. Where I would disagree is that it has to be this way. The #Metoo movement has been undeniably good, in theory. In practice, it could use some work.

Politics deserves the derision it gets when used this way.
  #275  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:03 AM
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Please enlighten me then.
I will state up front that I am uninterested in you establishing that I have the burden of proof here. The proof is all over the boards.

One (ok, maybe 2)question for YOU: Do YOU believe Kavanaugh is a sexual predator, and do you feel that it was proven?
#MeToo advocates that all accusations be taken seriously and investigated, and that accusers not be denigrated, insulted, or otherwise mistreated barring proof of dishonest or otherwise malicious actions. There is no single source for what #MeToo is and advocates for, but that is what almost every advocate and supporter that I've spoken to believes is the fundamental basis of #MeToo.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 04-01-2020 at 10:04 AM.
  #276  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:34 AM
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#MeToo advocates that all accusations be taken seriously and investigated, and that accusers not be denigrated, insulted, or otherwise mistreated barring proof of dishonest or otherwise malicious actions. There is no single source for what #MeToo is and advocates for, but that is what almost every advocate and supporter that I've spoken to believes is the fundamental basis of #MeToo.
But no interest in answering the actual question posed, nor telling me how what I posted was wrong? (In the real world, that has real consequences)
  #277  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:44 AM
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But no interest in answering the actual question posed, nor telling me how what I posted was wrong? (In the real world, that has real consequences)
RE: Kavanaugh -- I think he probably is a sexual predator, but it's obviously impossible to have any certainty. In addition to probably being a sexual predator, how he handled himself in the hearings demonstrated to me that he was wholly temperamentally unsuited to the SCOTUS (or indeed any position of leadership or political/legal office, IMO).

As for the "Check!" stuff you gave, that's rarely happening out in the real world. Accusers are generally still not believed (and indeed are usually denigrated). Automatic belief isn't necessary (and obviously isn't happening), but refraining from mistreating accusers definitely is necessary, and it's still happening. Investigations still aren't happening nearly as often, or as thoroughly, as they should be. And nothing usually happens to the accused -- Kavanaugh and Trump are only the most prominent examples.
  #278  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:57 AM
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As for the "Check!" stuff you gave, that's rarely happening out in the real world. Accusers are generally still not believed (and indeed are usually denigrated). Automatic belief isn't necessary (and obviously isn't happening), but refraining from mistreating accusers definitely is necessary, and it's still happening. Investigations still aren't happening nearly as often, or as thoroughly, as they should be. And nothing usually happens to the accused -- Kavanaugh and Trump are only the most prominent examples.
It begs the question of whether what Kearsen1 suggested earlier about protection by anonymity might not work in favor of the accuser.
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  #279  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:06 AM
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It begs the question of whether what Kearsen1 suggested earlier about protection by anonymity might not work in favor of the accuser.
My comments were what I believe to perfectly fine and good things that have come from the #MeToo movement along with the bad thing(s) that have come from it as well. Which is why I agreed with your earlier post that offered some nuance to the statements.

It got the ball rolling, in the right direction IMO. What iiiandyiii has posted here in this very thread is that he doesn't give on whit about the accuser, as long as the accused is believed and the accuser investigated.

As to whether or not anonymity this favors the accused, I would certainly hope not. I don't see how that would even be possible. They were just accused of being a sexual predator, what favor have they been done?

What it definitely DOES DO is keep the public from coming to a conclusion one way or the other, until it has been decided by whatever investigation is at hand.

What it would also do is keep politically squabbles out of sight, in some (most?) cases.
  #280  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:08 AM
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RE: Kavanaugh -- I think he probably is a sexual predator, but it's obviously impossible to have any certainty. In addition to probably being a sexual predator, how he handled himself in the hearings demonstrated to me that he was wholly temperamentally unsuited to the SCOTUS (or indeed any position of leadership or political/legal office, IMO).

As for the "Check!" stuff you gave, that's rarely happening out in the real world. Accusers are generally still not believed (and indeed are usually denigrated). Automatic belief isn't necessary (and obviously isn't happening), but refraining from mistreating accusers definitely is necessary, and it's still happening. Investigations still aren't happening nearly as often, or as thoroughly, as they should be. And nothing usually happens to the accused -- Kavanaugh and Trump are only the most prominent examples.
Not interested in opinion about being a sexual predator. Either they are, and they are jailed, not confirmed/fired/humiliated etc or they aren't because you can't prove it. Letting it sit in the public, even if found not guilty, has repercussions (in the real world)

Maybe less repercussions for the wealthy that can afford the best and brightest defense.

Last edited by Kearsen1; 04-01-2020 at 11:08 AM.
  #281  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:09 AM
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What iiiandyiii has posted here in this very thread is that he doesn't give on whit about the accuser, as long as the accused is believed and the accuser investigated.
The first two parts of this are inaccurate regarding my posts and beliefs.
  #282  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:11 AM
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My comments were what I believe to perfectly fine and good things that have come from the #MeToo movement along with the bad thing(s) that have come from it as well. Which is why I agreed with your earlier post that offered some nuance to the statements.

It got the ball rolling, in the right direction IMO. What iiiandyiii has posted here in this very thread is that he doesn't give on whit about the accuser, as long as the accused is believed and the accuser investigated.

As to whether or not anonymity this favors the accused, I would certainly hope not. I don't see how that would even be possible. They were just accused of being a sexual predator, what favor have they been done?

What it definitely DOES DO is keep the public from coming to a conclusion one way or the other, until it has been decided by whatever investigation is at hand.

What it would also do is keep politically squabbles out of sight, in some (most?) cases.
You've confused me a bit by either transposing the terms "accused" and "accuser" or what I understand iiandyiiii is trying to say.

But I think I was also too brief in my response. I'm evaluating the merit of anonymity for BOTH the accuser and accused while investigations are ongoing. Leaving the logistics or even possibility of achieving this out for the moment.
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  #283  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:15 AM
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Not interested in opinion about being a sexual predator. Either they are, and they are jailed, not confirmed/fired/humiliated etc or they aren't because you can't prove it.
"Opinions" are how SCOTUS confirmation works. The opinions of Senators on whether he should be confirmed.

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Letting it sit in the public, even if found not guilty, has repercussions (in the real world)
If so, and if he didn't do it, then Kavanaugh should have pushed an extremely thorough and rigorous investigation in order to clear his name. He didn't do this.

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Maybe less repercussions for the wealthy that can afford the best and brightest defense.
Maybe no repercussions, barring absolutely overwhelming evidence of guilt and no significant political power (i.e. Cosby and Weinstein).
  #284  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:16 AM
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The first two parts of this are inaccurate regarding my posts and beliefs.
Looking back, it looks like kearsen1 got his words confused, and the entirety of his statement about me was inaccurate.
  #285  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:20 AM
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The first two parts of this are inaccurate regarding my posts and beliefs.
You are correct, I did transpose the terms accuser/accused.

Last edited by Kearsen1; 04-01-2020 at 11:21 AM.
  #286  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:23 AM
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You are correct, I did transpose the terms accuser/accused.
Okay, then just the part about believing the accuser was incorrect. I've made no statements about whether any particular belief is appropriate or not. In fact, I don't give a whit about beliefs - only actions.
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  #287  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:26 AM
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"Opinions" are how SCOTUS confirmation works. The opinions of Senators on whether he should be confirmed.



If so, and if he didn't do it, then Kavanaugh should have pushed an extremely thorough and rigorous investigation in order to clear his name. He didn't do this.



Maybe no repercussions, barring absolutely overwhelming evidence of guilt and no significant political power (i.e. Cosby and Weinstein).
But he WAS confirmed, yet there still lingers doubt in your mind. So much so, that you will post that you BELIEVE him to be a sexual predator. If this happened here, when he is now out of the public eye, what do you think it would do to people who either:
1. Don't leave the public eye or
2. The audience shrinks (think small town living) where everyone knows or has an opinion based upon slanderous accusations that were not proven.

I honestly don't think you think about anything other than the accuser in these scenarios and from your posting history on the subject, don't care to.

I have already met you halfway.
I believe. I want an investigation. Where I get off that train is when the investigation doesn't come up with enough to prove the merits of the case.

Now, let me know that you also care about the accused and how it affects them here in the real world.


Also, why is the onus of "clearing your name" on the accused? That is NOT how the justice system we have in the USA works.

Last edited by Kearsen1; 04-01-2020 at 11:28 AM.
  #288  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:32 AM
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But he WAS confirmed, yet there still lingers doubt in your mind. So much so, that you will post that you BELIEVE him to be a sexual predator. If this happened here, when he is now out of the public eye, what do you think it would do to people who either:
1. Don't leave the public eye or
2. The audience shrinks (think small town living) where everyone knows or has an opinion based upon slanderous accusations that were not proven.
He's not out of the "public eye" -- not even close! Not until he's no longer on the SCOTUS (or even a lower but still significant federal court).

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I honestly don't think you think about anything other than the accuser in these scenarios and from your posting history on the subject, don't care to.
In general, this is correct. As it should be, in our present society, since the accused, especially wealthy and influential accused, are inevitably treated with kid gloves and face few if any consequences.

If we had a fair society that approached these issues correctly, then I'd certainly expend the same concern over accused as for accusers, since society would be treating them both appropriately, in general.

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I have already met you halfway.
I believe. I want an investigation. Where I get off that train is when the investigation doesn't come up with enough to prove the merits of the case.
There was no serious and thorough investigation for Kavanaugh. It doesn't appear there's been one yet for the allegation of the thread title.

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Now, let me know that you also care about the accused and how it affects them here in the real world.
If there's evidence an accused person is being treated unjustly, I'd definitely care about that specific person and hope for them to be treated justly -- but that's extremely rare... unlike how accusers are generally treated, which is almost always very unjustly.

Quote:
Also, why is the onus of "clearing your name" on the accused? That is NOT how the justice system we have in the USA works.
I'm not talking about the justice system. I'm talking about society and culture in general.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 04-01-2020 at 11:33 AM.
  #289  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:56 AM
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I'm not talking about the justice system. I'm talking about society and culture in general.
Society, culture and the justice system are intrinsically linked. I don't think you can be so flippant in dismissing the influence of one on the other.
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  #290  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:10 PM
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I wonder if Bernie can get Trump elected twice. If so, those will be his two greatest political achievements.
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:16 PM
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If so, and if he didn't do it, then Kavanaugh should have pushed an extremely thorough and rigorous investigation in order to clear his name. He didn't do this.
Kavanaugh was asked to push for an FBI investigation. Has Biden called for an FBI investigation?

Has Biden testified about the allegations under oath? AFAIK Biden has not - he has simply denied them. If he is really innocent, shouldn't he be pushing for a rigorous investigation so as to clear his name?

It seems inconsistent to say that "there were allegations about Kavanaugh, they investigated and found that none of the people Ford said were present back up the story, her best friend, who Ford claimed was there, said she was never at a party with Kavanaugh and didn't know him, but Kavanaugh did not push for an FBI investigation so he is probably a sexual predator and shouldn't have been confirmed" and also "there are allegations about Biden, he isn't pushing for an FBI investigation, so he should be elected President".

I would have thought "if the accused doesn't push for more investigation, he probably did it" would cut both ways.

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Old 04-01-2020, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Kavanaugh was asked to push for an FBI investigation. Has Biden called for an FBI investigation?

Has Biden testified about the allegations under oath? AFAIK Biden has not - he has simply denied them. If he is really innocent, shouldn't he be pushing for a rigorous investigation so as to clear his name?

It seems inconsistent to say that "there were allegations about Kavanaugh, they investigated and found that none of the people Ford said were present back up the story, her best friend, who Ford claimed was there, said she was never at a party with Kavanaugh and didn't know him, but Kavanaugh did not push for an FBI investigation so he is probably a sexual predator and shouldn't have been confirmed" and also "there are allegations about Biden, he isn't pushing for an FBI investigation, so he should be elected President".

I would have thought "if the accused doesn't push for more investigation, he probably did it" would cut both ways.

Regards,
Shodan
What does this have to do with anything I've posted? If you're suggesting that Biden should push for an investigation (I doubt the FBI would be involved, as it appropriately was for a SCOTUS nominee, but investigations by media and the party itself should definitely be occurring), then I agree! He should.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 04-01-2020 at 12:24 PM.
  #293  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:25 PM
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Society, culture and the justice system are intrinsically linked. I don't think you can be so flippant in dismissing the influence of one on the other.
The justice system hasn't been involved in the cases we've been discussing. Just society and culture.
  #294  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:25 PM
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I wonder if Bernie can get Trump elected twice. If so, those will be his two greatest political achievements.
Let's not pretend like if it were not for Bernie, all those super progressives would have rushed out to vote for HRC.
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  #295  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:31 PM
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I wonder if Bernie can get Trump elected twice. If so, those will be his two greatest political achievements.
Nader did it for Bush.
  #296  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:34 PM
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The justice system hasn't been involved in the cases we've been discussing. Just society and culture.
Society and culture looks to the justice system for guidance for what is just. That is why we so often hear people talk about the presumption of innocence being an important aspect of civil society. We don't just leave it to society and culture to decide.

Which is not to say that society and culture has a very good track record of treating women who have been sexually assaulted.

I'm just considering the case where the justice system provides guidance that says that all accusers and accused shall remain anonymous until the conclusion of an investigation, then both parties are served and protected from unwarranted or premature public speculation and threats.
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:50 PM
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Society and culture looks to the justice system for guidance for what is just. That is why we so often hear people talk about the presumption of innocence being an important aspect of civil society. We don't just leave it to society and culture to decide.
Meant to add: ...on a case by case basis or what's trending on twitter.
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  #298  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:55 PM
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All this generic #metoo stuff is great. This story isn't even getting traction here even though it's the subject of the thread.
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:58 PM
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All this generic #metoo stuff is great. This story isn't even getting traction here even though it's the subject of the thread.
I think everyone is waiting to see if there is anything more to this story that is not entirely speculative.
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Old 04-01-2020, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
Society and culture looks to the justice system for guidance for what is just. That is why we so often hear people talk about the presumption of innocence being an important aspect of civil society. We don't just leave it to society and culture to decide.

Which is not to say that society and culture has a very good track record of treating women who have been sexually assaulted.

I'm just considering the case where the justice system provides guidance that says that all accusers and accused shall remain anonymous until the conclusion of an investigation, then both parties are served and protected from unwarranted or premature public speculation and threats.
I think that's a reasonable thing to discuss. I'm not sure how I feel about it off the top of my head.
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