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Old 03-30-2020, 04:26 PM
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Would A Conservative and/or Trump Supporter Rationally Explain This?


I would love to hear back from some Trump supporters (no attacking, I am truly curious to understand)

We have so much factual/video evidence of Trump either flat out lying and denying his mistruths combined with his self grand standing that I often wonder how a true "team red" Trump supporter can rationally support the man (not the ideals, the man). How are you not embarassed to say you support him?

Is there ANY evidence that he has ever taken responsibility or even admitted ANY failure, being wrong or shortcoming? Does it not bother you that in his view he is the smartest, greatest, most tremendous man/POTUS ever?

Is it simply impossible in today's political climate to state that you support the GOP ideology but can recognize the man is in a very "clinical sense" a known pathelogical liar?

Yes all politicians lie, I get it... but Trump lies on an unprecedented scale... about everything and sometimes about things that simply do not warrant the lie. Reagan lied/forgot about the contra stuff, Clinton didn't have sex with that woman and Bush Sr said no new taxes... but Trump is on a whole different level, do most Trump supporters know this or do they REALLY think he is 100% framed by the fakenews?

Do you recognize how his video documented stance has changed 180 degrees on the pandemic (which would actually be understandable if he did not lie about it and now give himself a 10 out of 10 in his response to the virus) or do you really think its all fake and trickery by media video editing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxG2...ature=youtu.be


Mike Pence (who i believe is likely more dangerous than Trump) fits the mold of a republican that "true" conservatives can get behind and despite the fact that i fervently disagree with him on most of his GOP ideals, I do not think he is a particularly egregious liar, con man or all around horrible person.

So conservatives, please tell me... is it just the tribal / team red nature of it all and if so, WHAT would he have to do short of murder on live TV to see him as a malignant cancer on our country?

Last edited by chargerrich; 03-30-2020 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 03-30-2020, 04:28 PM
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I guess he admitted failure in his first 2 marriages. But he probably blamed Ivana and Marla.
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Old 03-30-2020, 04:50 PM
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As a conservative (albeit a non-Trump-supporting 3rd party voter,) yes - it's about 90% explained by tribal redness-versus-blueness. Couple that with the fact that most of the trends favor liberals - America looks to be getting bluer and bluer as the decades go on, and conservatives are already significantly outnumbered - and many Trump voters are willing to overlook just about anything in the name of political survival.

When you're drowning, you don't nitpick over whether the life preserver thrown to you is a shape that you like. When you're skydiving and your main parachute fails, you don't nitpick about the ugly design that your backup chute comes in. Choosiness went out the window a long, long time ago for the floundering GOP.

(Now, whether Trump is indeed a life preserver, or a dagger to the heart of the GOP, is a different question, as is also why they don't reject Trump and promote Pence instead, who would support mostly the same agenda but in a much saner way, is a mystery too.)
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Old 03-30-2020, 04:52 PM
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I can no longer call myself a conservative and I’ve definitely never been a Trump supporter, but what I’ve heard from conservative commentators (the relatively sane/reasonable ones) is that you have to ignore what he says and look at what he’s done, and judging by that they give him a pass. They at least consider him better than whoever the Democratic Party nominates. Things like tax reform, nominating judges, border security (ignoring the splitting of families, sometimes forever), and so on. But the lying and stupid tweets and all that, even they admit it’s not good. Just not enough to not support him.

Qanon and other psychos probably think that all of his lies are a clever way to confuse and disrupt the Deep State (TM) as he fights to protect real Americans. I’m only guessing, I can’t listen or read any of that crap long enough to form an informed opinion. It’s too much for me to stand.
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Old 03-30-2020, 05:01 PM
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To understand the Trump mindset, just take a look at some of the posts written by Dopers here (and I don't mean this as a "both sides do it," but just as a "look at it from their shoes):

Here on this Straight Dope, we've had people claim that almost nothing bad about a Democrat could deter them from voting for that (D) candidate against Trump:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
The Dems could run the rotting corpse of Hitler and I wouldn't hesitate a second to vote for him. It. Whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoid View Post
Absolutely nothing could stop me from voting against the current president.
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Originally Posted by Alpha Twit View Post
I would pretty much have to see the Democrat nominee feeding puppies and kittens into a wood chipper on the news every night for weeks on end all the while running on the platform of "I'm gonna tax you bastards back to the stone age!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
Nothing that fits into the category of 'scandal' could get me to vote against the Dem nominee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeWinder View Post
Nothing imaginable would get me not to vote for anyone other than (Trump's) opponent unless that opponent could somehow managed to exceed this very, very high bar. The rotting corpse of Hitler would at least not be taking active malicious action. I would literally vote for the office to be left empty rather than allow Trump to continue in it.
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Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post
I would vote for the rotting corpse of Charlie Manson over Trump.
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Originally Posted by Siam Sam View Post
The Democratic candidate could dig up both my dead grandmothers and sexually desecrate the bodies repeatedly and publicly, and I would still vote for him or her over Chump.
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Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
There is NO scandal that would cause me to not vote for the Democrat in 2020.


My point not being as a "gotcha," but rather, to illustrate that..........that's exactly how Trump voters feel, just in reverse. Blue-Red tribalism is so intense these days that just about nothing one's own side does can be so bad as to make Blue jump over to Team Red or vice versa. That's why Trump voters aren't abandoning their guy. They'll stick with him to the bitter end.
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Old 03-30-2020, 05:20 PM
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To understand the Trump mindset, just take a look at some of the posts written by Dopers here (and I don't mean this as a "both sides do it," but just as a "look at it from their shoes)[/URL]
You correctly capture the intensity of hatred, but you completely and absolutely miss the mark as to why the respective parties make those statements.

Democrats didn't go batshit absolutist simply because Republicans are the other team. This goes deeper than that. Trump is uniquely horrible, he's verifiably done uniquely horrible things. I know you know this to be true.

There is some cadre of Republicans who are as tribal as you say... they're against Democrats just because they aren't Republicans. But they also say things like "Trump's done bad things, but Hillary did worse, or she would have done worse things."

When you ask them to explain "worse", the responses you get point to things that simply aren't real (qanon, "post-birth abortions", or rank hypotheticals "we'll become Venezuela", or things that simply reveal an immature concept of "bad" (but her emails).

Tribalism exists, and it's a factor, but it's a big error to pretend it works the same way on both sides. It's another big error to omit the fact that Trump supporters believe in a constructed false reality. They simply believe things that are made-up and imagined.

Having said that, I'll contradict something I wrote above. Now, 3 years into the Trump presidency, many Democrats indeed have categorically written off Republicans. But it's not, as you seem to think, because they're Republicans. It's because they've marched in lockstep to all the crazy, cruel, and delusional bullshit Trump has dished out over the past 4 years. They have proven themselves to be bad-faith governing partners because they are uninterested in governing society as a whole. They have shown themselves a pirate crew determined to loot wealth and power in the interest of preserving their own supremacy. This isn't something I'd have said in the pre-Trump era, but it's something they've demonstrated through complicity with the Trump crime racket.
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Old 03-30-2020, 05:25 PM
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This is all so very fascinating to me. As a member of "team purple" I have to say that tribalism is so bad for politics and our country.

I just cannot wrap my brain around the idea that you MUST support all ideas of your party.

Why is it wrong to have centrist ideas today?

* I am an avid law enforcement supporter but support legalizing pot (and I have not had any since college but the tax revenue could be great) and think for profit prisons are one of the most evil institutions in america.

* I support some immigration policies but think the "border wall" is a stupid and ineffectual idea along with a massive waste of money.

* I am very pro military but probably swing into isolationist ideologies in terms of policing the world.

* I am 100% in favor of free college but would support a flax/consumer tax.

* I would support some form of UBI but only if it replaced Welfare

* And finally I am pro alternative energy but do not even think about taking away my guns or my lifted F350 diesel

Oh and I roll my eyes most every time AOC talks... But Trump might be the anti-christ (if i were not agnostic )
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Old 03-30-2020, 05:36 PM
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When you ask them to explain "worse", the responses you get point to things that simply aren't real (qanon, "post-birth abortions", or rank hypotheticals "we'll become Venezuela", or things that simply reveal an immature concept of "bad" (but her emails).
Plenty of Trump supporters, and conservatives, feel intense ire over Democratic platforms that are in every way real and substantiated. Things such as: The teaching of multiple genders or fluid gender identity and transgenderism, gay pride/gay marriage, abortion rights, the gradual erosion of Christianity and increase of non-Christian religions or atheism, increased gun control (which, by the way, I support), naturalized citizenship or, at the least, lessened prosecution of illegal immigrants, feminism, single-payer healthcare, liberal judges on the courts, etc.

Whether they ought to feel anger over such things is a different topic. But these are, in every way, genuine platforms and policies supported by a great many Democrats. They are not made-up fictional things like QAnon or the pizza parlor child trafficking ring. They are 100% real, substantial, platforms. Many millions of Democrats themselves would acknowledge - quite proudly - that they support one, several, or all of the platforms listed above.

Last edited by Velocity; 03-30-2020 at 05:38 PM.
  #9  
Old 03-30-2020, 05:45 PM
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Plenty of Trump supporters, and conservatives, feel intense ire over Democratic platforms that are in every way real and substantiated. Things such as: The teaching of multiple genders or fluid gender identity and transgenderism, gay pride/gay marriage, abortion rights, the gradual erosion of Christianity and increase of non-Christian religions or atheism, increased gun control (which, by the way, I support), naturalized citizenship or, at the least, lessened prosecution of illegal immigrants, feminism, single-payer healthcare, liberal judges on the courts, etc.

Whether they ought to feel anger over such things is a different topic. But these are, in every way, genuine platforms and policies supported by a great many Democrats. They are not made-up fictional things like QAnon or the pizza parlor child trafficking ring. They are 100% real, substantial, platforms. Many millions of Democrats themselves would acknowledge - quite proudly - that they support one, several, or all of the platforms listed above.
Many of the examples you give above are based on bigotry, hatred, xenophobia, or similar phenomena. Cultural grievance, in other words. Which was the motivating factor for Trump support, above everything else.
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Old 03-30-2020, 05:48 PM
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Many of the examples you give above are based on bigotry, hatred, xenophobia, or similar phenomena. Cultural grievance, in other words. Which was the motivating factor for Trump support, above everything else.
My point is, Trump supporters aren't concocting up made-up stuff to get angry at Democrats about. (Sure, some of them circulate QAnon and other nonsense, but you'll find radicals in every party/movement.) They are, by and large, angry at Democrats for supporting things that Democrats themselves very openly acknowledge that they support.
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Old 03-30-2020, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
To understand the Trump mindset, just take a look at some of the posts written by Dopers here (and I don't mean this as a "both sides do it," but just as a "look at it from their shoes):

Here on this Straight Dope, we've had people claim that almost nothing bad about a Democrat could deter them from voting for that (D) candidate against Trump:












My point not being as a "gotcha," but rather, to illustrate that..........that's exactly how Trump voters feel, just in reverse. Blue-Red tribalism is so intense these days that just about nothing one's own side does can be so bad as to make Blue jump over to Team Red or vice versa. That's why Trump voters aren't abandoning their guy. They'll stick with him to the bitter end.
One has to recognize that most of those poster are motivated not by a dislike or even hatred of Republicans in general but of trump in particular. I'm a lifelong Dem having "defected", only once at the presidential level (and that was to vote for Anderson in 1980). By contrast, the Republicans scorn is directed at Democrats generally, to the point where they'd vote for a suspected child molester if he had the "R" after his name.

There was also, I suspect a deliberate indulgence in hyperbole on the part of some of the anti-trump posters. Some, but not me. ZOMBIE MANSON-2020
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Old 03-30-2020, 05:54 PM
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My point is, Trump supporters aren't concocting up made-up stuff to get angry at Democrats about. (Sure, some of them circulate QAnon and other nonsense, but you'll find radicals in every party/movement.) They are, by and large, angry at Democrats for supporting things that Democrats themselves very openly acknowledge that they support.
Right, just like how most white Republicans opposed Civil Rights in the 60s, most Republicans opposed gay rights in the last couple of decades, and most Republicans oppose trans rights now. This isn't a defense, by any means.
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Old 03-30-2020, 06:42 PM
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Right, just like how most white Republicans opposed Civil Rights in the 60s, most Republicans opposed gay rights in the last couple of decades, and most Republicans oppose trans rights now. This isn't a defense, by any means.
It is a defense though. Not one you or I would accept because we both feel that itís bigotry but they donít see it that way. They have seen the world defining gender in a narrow, simple way their entire lives, a way that was socially accepted almost universally, and what you and I see as acceptance they see as trying to normalize something crazy and obscene. I think itís ignorant and as a person with trans friends who struggle it pisses me off, but to them itís legit.

Basically, if you ask someone why they do something and they give you an answer that doesnít satisfy you, you canít turn around and claim that the answer is invalid. The answer doesnít have to make sense to you, it only has to make sense to the person giving the answer.
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Old 03-30-2020, 07:13 PM
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It is a defense though. Not one you or I would accept because we both feel that it’s bigotry but they don’t see it that way. They have seen the world defining gender in a narrow, simple way their entire lives, a way that was socially accepted almost universally, and what you and I see as acceptance they see as trying to normalize something crazy and obscene. I think it’s ignorant and as a person with trans friends who struggle it pisses me off, but to them it’s legit.



Basically, if you ask someone why they do something and they give you an answer that doesn’t satisfy you, you can’t turn around and claim that the answer is invalid. The answer doesn’t have to make sense to you, it only has to make sense to the person giving the answer.
Yes, it makes sense to them. Bigotry makes sense to bigots. People who vote based on this stuff are bigots, and it's okay to say so.
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Old 03-30-2020, 07:20 PM
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It's clear that trumpism goes deeper than tribalism and deeper than bigotry. It partakes of a cult, in which the leader holds a kind of hypnotic hold over his followers, such that they will truly do anything he tells them to and believe anything he says even if it is the dead opposite of the last thing he said.

There are reasons to support a conservative platform (though they are arguable). There aren't reasons to worship trump. But worship is what he both demands and gets.

Last edited by Ulfreida; 03-30-2020 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 03-30-2020, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
To understand the Trump mindset, just take a look at some of the posts written by Dopers here (and I don't mean this as a "both sides do it," but just as a "look at it from their shoes):

Here on this Straight Dope, we've had people claim that almost nothing bad about a Democrat could deter them from voting for that (D) candidate against Trump:
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherrerd --
I would vote for the rotting corpse of Charlie Manson over Trump.
...

My point not being as a "gotcha," but rather, to illustrate that..........that's exactly how Trump voters feel, just in reverse. Blue-Red tribalism is so intense these days that just about nothing one's own side does can be so bad as to make Blue jump over to Team Red or vice versa. ...
HMS Irruncible gave you an answer with which I agree entirely (excerpted below). But I want to say specifically: I did not tout the rotting corpse of Charles Manson as candidate out of an anti-Republican sentiment. I did not tout the rotting corpse of Charles Manson as candidate out of determination to support a side other than the Republican side. I did not tout the rotting corpse of Charles Manson as candidate out of tribalism.

I touted the rotting corpse of Charles Manson as candidate, out of the certain knowledge that the rotting corpse of Charles Manson would make a better President than Donald Trump.





Again, this is very well said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
... Democrats didn't go batshit absolutist simply because Republicans are the other team. This goes deeper than that. Trump is uniquely horrible, he's verifiably done uniquely horrible things. I know you know this to be true.

... Tribalism exists, and it's a factor, but it's a big error to pretend it works the same way on both sides. It's another big error to omit the fact that Trump supporters believe in a constructed false reality. They simply believe things that are made-up and imagined. ...
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Old 03-30-2020, 07:32 PM
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Yes, it makes sense to them. Bigotry makes sense to bigots. People who vote based on this stuff are bigots, and it's okay to say so.
I agree.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:59 AM
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Real people who describe themselves as "Trump supporters" are almost always ignorant and inarticulate; they cannot be discussed in sentences with phrases like "rationally explain."

Trump supporters at SDMB talk about voting for Gary Johnson, or talk about being "forced to vote for the awful Trump" because the Ds ran Hillary. And they're happy to have any R in charge: they want their right-wing judges, right-wing tax cuts, right-wing hatreds, and Guns, Guns, Guns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
...
Here on this Straight Dope, we've had people claim that almost nothing bad about a Democrat could deter them from voting for that (D) candidate against Trump:
My point not being as a "gotcha," but rather, to illustrate that..........that's exactly how Trump voters feel, just in reverse.
So the way Ds feel about Trump is the way Rs feel about every single Democrat. Got it.

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... I just cannot wrap my brain around the idea that you MUST support all ideas of your party.

Why is it wrong to have centrist ideas today?...
If you think all Ds march in tandem on the issues, I wonder which D debates you were watching? Biden, Gabbard, Bloomberg — are these all fringe leftists? How many guesses do we get for your preferred "centrist" candidate? Gary Johnson?

But you're correct about the Rs: they certainly move in lock-step. In the R debate 4 years ago, I was startled when Fox's blonde rock star started her question about health care with "As Republicans, of course you all want to abolish Obamacare."

Last edited by septimus; 03-31-2020 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 03-31-2020, 06:17 AM
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Real people who describe themselves as "Trump supporters" are almost always ignorant and inarticulate; they cannot be discussed in sentences with phrases like "rationally explain."

...

These guys?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-ZF...s&index=3&t=0s
(Jordan Klepper from The Daily Show interviews Trump supporters. Good god.)
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Old 03-31-2020, 07:28 AM
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But don't we dare call them stupid.
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Old 03-31-2020, 07:50 AM
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Is mainstream political discourse in the US as polarised as the posts in this thread? If so, there's your answer. If a prominent message from the left is that the views of the right are contemptible, then the right is going to be deaf to all messages from the left. So just like the left would prefer the rotting corpse of Hitler over Trump, the right would prefer literally any Republican over a leftist.
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Old 03-31-2020, 07:56 AM
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But don't we dare call them stupid.
That's why Trump won!!!!!!!11
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Old 03-31-2020, 08:07 AM
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Is mainstream political discourse in the US as polarised as the posts in this thread? If so, there's your answer. If a prominent message from the left is that the views of the right are contemptible, then the right is going to be deaf to all messages from the left. So just like the left would prefer the rotting corpse of Hitler over Trump, the right would prefer literally any Republican over a leftist.
A leftist? Who the fuck said anything about a leftist? We're talking about a mainstream Democrat. And, your false equivalence is the same as Velocity's.

Velocity, your list up above is, in my opinion, really not on point. That's showing hatred for a specific person, Trump, not Republicans in general. Trump has been, again IMO, uniquely bad. His policies are mainstream Republican bad, but his Twitter rants, his treatment of other politicians, his generally toddler-like behavior, his incurious nature, his greed and graft, and his incompetence are uniquely bad for a president. So,your both-sideism is, again IMO, bullshit in this case.

Anyway, I'd love to hear from an actual Trump supporter. I can only think of one who hasn't been banned at this point, though.
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Old 03-31-2020, 08:31 AM
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It's clear that trumpism goes deeper than tribalism and deeper than bigotry. It partakes of a cult, in which the leader holds a kind of hypnotic hold over his followers, such that they will truly do anything he tells them to and believe anything he says even if it is the dead opposite of the last thing he said.

There are reasons to support a conservative platform (though they are arguable). There aren't reasons to worship trump. But worship is what he both demands and gets.
I hope this doesn't sound like quibbling, but, ignorance, bigotry, fear and resentment are their core tribal values; the cult they have always been.
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Old 03-31-2020, 08:56 AM
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If you think all Ds march in tandem on the issues, I wonder which D debates you were watching? Biden, Gabbard, Bloomberg ó are these all fringe leftists? How many guesses do we get for your preferred "centrist" candidate? Gary Johnson?

But you're correct about the Rs: they certainly move in lock-step. In the R debate 4 years ago, I was startled when Fox's blonde rock star started her question about health care with "As Republicans, of course you all want to abolish Obamacare."
Just to be clear, I would never waste a vote on someone like Gary Johnson. I am - on most days - a democrat .

From an ideology perspective, I was saying I align most with moderate democrats (like Biden) who do not drift off into AOC far/fringe left policies. I do not mind admitting that Gabbard and Yang were the two candidates that I most identified with (knowing full well that they had no real chance in 2020).

I often struggle with the use of the word "centrist" as I am - generally speaking - a democrat, but when i hear the fringe left talk, it always makes me cringe and I hate that the democratic party fracture has created this ultra progressive wing in much the same way that republicans have their ultra conservative, "climate change is a hoax", "god will fix everything" arms.

Biden would make a good POTUS in my opinion. I think that he is mostly a good man, is definitely the "anti-trump" and would get us moving back in the right direction. The problem (my fear) is his age and in this political climate, going up against Trump in debates he will get slaughtered.
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Old 03-31-2020, 09:15 AM
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A leftist? Who the fuck said anything about a leftist? We're talking about a mainstream Democrat. And, your false equivalence is the same as Velocity's.
A leftist is simply somebody from the left. I don't know what sinister meaning you're trying to imbue the word with. Communist, maybe? Feel free to substitute the word liberal if it will calm you down.

Is it a mainstream Democrat position that "Trump supporters believe in a constructed false reality. They simply believe things that are made-up and imagined."?

If the liberal vs conservative argument in the US is so inflamed that the above statement is a typical liberal position, then it's no wonder that US politics is so polarised. I'm sure if you go look, you can find an equally polarising statement about liberals from a conservative leaning message board. But if either or both sides are prominently generating messages that the other side is made up of nothing but irrational dupes, then all messages from whichever side are going to be rejected by the opposite side. The OP is asking a poisoned-well question, but he's essentially asking why a conservative would back Trump in spite of all his bad acts. The answer is that because the US is so polarised, he's opposing everyone in the liberal tribe. Trump may have issues, but at least he's in the conservative tribe. Is this rational? No. But neither is the Trump Derangement Syndrome that seems to have taken over the liberal mindset and is well-evidenced within this thread.
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Old 03-31-2020, 09:33 AM
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I am much happier that we are nominating the corpse of Joe Biden than the corpse of Charlie Manson.
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Old 03-31-2020, 10:09 AM
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I don't know about Biden getting slaughtered. When Trump isn't reading what is on the teleprompter, he shows his true colors in babbling, non-sensical, incomplete sentences and outright lies. If a moderator were to actually call him on his bullshit, things could get interesting. The thing is, they don't. They ask the question, let the candidates spew and leave it to the voter to decide. What you end up with is both sides declaring victory even though a critical thinker would see through the smoke. Although I don't agree with it, I understand the "elections are too important to leave to the voters" mindset.

Regarding Rs and Ds generally - I agree with chargerrich on almost every point in post #7. I was raised in a white (upper?) middle class family and went to a 99% white high school. I rarely encountered minorities and spent a career as a a law enforcement officer. I ought to be a staunch R but I'm not. As a result of life experience, I've become very tolerant of people not exactly like me. Live and let live but take some personal responsibility with where you end up in life. I believe most hard core Trumpers see thier way of life under siege. They really don't care about the country as a whole, despite their chanting of U!S!A!. They care about themselves and anything that could potentially encroach on their beliefs must be fought tooth and nail. They miss that their way of thinking is counter to the very principles upon which this country was founded. People under siege are generally more passionate than those laying siege. Their very existence depends on it while those on the attack have less to lose. Military doctrine commonly holds that there need to be a 3:1 advantage on the part of the "siegers". Fortunately, our system doesn't require that but, if Democrats don't come out and vote, who is to blame as to who sits in the White House or Congress?

Last edited by MikeF; 03-31-2020 at 10:10 AM.
  #29  
Old 03-31-2020, 10:29 AM
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Plenty of Trump supporters, and conservatives, feel intense ire over Democratic platforms that are in every way real and substantiated. Things such as: The teaching of multiple genders or fluid gender identity and transgenderism, gay pride/gay marriage, abortion rights, the gradual erosion of Christianity and increase of non-Christian religions or atheism, increased gun control (which, by the way, I support), naturalized citizenship or, at the least, lessened prosecution of illegal immigrants, feminism, single-payer healthcare, liberal judges on the courts, etc.
I'm not going to address everything on this list. Many of these are real *policies* but they mostly deal with substance that is *not real*. I mean, the gradual erosion of Christianity? Yes, this is happening. But Christianity isn't our state religion, God is not real in any factually demonstrable sense that we all agree upon. In essence they are aggrieved that someone disrespects their invisible friend.

Feminism? Homosexuality? These things are real, but their impact to conservatives is absolutely insubstantial, unless you count their rage over not being able to control the private behavior of others.

Naturalized citizenship is a real thing, but it's not something Democrats invented, it's constitutional originalism.
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Old 03-31-2020, 10:29 AM
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A leftist is simply somebody from the left. I don't know what sinister meaning you're trying to imbue the word with. Communist, maybe? Feel free to substitute the word liberal if it will calm you down.

Is it a mainstream Democrat position that "Trump supporters believe in a constructed false reality. They simply believe things that are made-up and imagined."?
....
I checked the Democratic Party platform and it didn't say anything about Trump supporters and their beliefs, so I'd say it's not.

"Leftist" has a different meaning than somebody on the left-hand side of the spectrum in real life, at least in the US. You're from the UK, of course -- do you think the Democratic Party platform is "leftist"? Is universal healthcare a leftist position in the UK? How about sensible gun regulations? Is that leftist in the UK? Acceptance of the reality of climate change? Are those things that the Tories run against?

I guess this is very off-topic for this thread, so I apologize for the hijack.

OP, any luck getting any actual Trump supporters yet? I think there may be three of them, now that I've thought about it a bit more.
  #31  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:28 AM
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The OP is asking a poisoned-well question, but he's essentially asking why a conservative would back Trump in spite of all his bad acts. The answer is that because the US is so polarised, he's opposing everyone in the liberal tribe. Trump may have issues, but at least he's in the conservative tribe. Is this rational? No. But neither is the Trump Derangement Syndrome that seems to have taken over the liberal mindset and is well-evidenced within this thread.
Plenty of thoughtful conservatives do not support Trump. Plenty of Republicans grit their teeth and support him because they can manipulate him into doing things they want. The overwhelming majority of Trump supporters are bigots, racists, ignorant, fearful and resentful of having their prejudiced views challenged for years by more progressive views of fellow countrymen. The Trump Derangement Syndrome has affected those on the right as well. It's turned them into mindless MAGAcultists. Saying both sides are equally deranged is disingenuous and it would behoove you to not equate the two because the motives of the MAGATS are demonstrably dangerous and destructive to American society. What can progressives be credibly accused of forcing the right to do? Being tolerant of gays, minorities and trans people? Forcing everyone to have access to healthcare, clean water, education and a planet worth living on? Seriously. Has your argument ever worked on anyone who didn't already agree with you?
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  #32  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:49 AM
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Is it a mainstream Democrat position that "Trump supporters believe in a constructed false reality. They simply believe things that are made-up and imagined."?

If the liberal vs conservative argument in the US is so inflamed that the above statement is a typical liberal position, then it's no wonder that US politics is so polarised. I'm sure if you go look, you can find an equally polarising statement about liberals from a conservative leaning message board. But if either or both sides are prominently generating messages that the other side is made up of nothing but irrational dupes, then all messages from whichever side are going to be rejected by the opposite side. The OP is asking a poisoned-well question, but he's essentially asking why a conservative would back Trump in spite of all his bad acts. The answer is that because the US is so polarised, he's opposing everyone in the liberal tribe. Trump may have issues, but at least he's in the conservative tribe. Is this rational? No. But neither is the Trump Derangement Syndrome that seems to have taken over the liberal mindset and is well-evidenced within this thread.
But Trump actually is a horrible president, he actually does spew lies and conspiracy theories to his supporters and his supporters actually do eat that stuff up. Me pointing this out is not "Trump Derangement Syndrome", it's just reality.

I'm a left-winger who didn't like Obama at all mainly due to the war on terror, and Yemen late in his second term. I think almost every right-wing attack on Obama was moronic, but that didn't suddenly make me like Obama more. If you ask Democrats who strongly supported Obama why they did, they wouldn't say because of how negative and accusatory his critics are, they would probably talk about one of his policies that they agreed with. Saying support comes from foaming-at-the-mouth detractors only serves to prove that people actually do eat up Trump's BS, and instead of actually trying to defend it prefer to lash out at people who call them on it.

There just isn't an equivalence.
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:06 PM
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This thread is unfolding like many of the other dozen+ threads we've had over the past few years of "Why do Trump supporters support Trump?"



Step 1: "Why do Trump voters support him?"
Step 2: (Someone explains why Trump voters support him)
Step 3: "But that's WRONG of them! They SHOULDN'T support him!"



To which my response is - are you looking for a discussion, or a quarrel? Because when people explain why some folks vote for Trump (or support Hitler, or join ISIS, or become Klansmen, or become school shooters, or whatever) and you then lash out at the explanation itself, that's counterproductive to the discussion.

Last edited by Velocity; 03-31-2020 at 12:10 PM.
  #34  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:14 PM
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I checked the Democratic Party platform and it didn't say anything about Trump supporters and their beliefs, so I'd say it's not.
[SARCASM]Well that solves the OP's issue then. Everyone in this thread should read the Republican Party platform. They'll find that it contains measured reasonable ideas, which they may disagree with, but have a rational basis. They can then ignore all the noise about the right (I hope it's okay for me to use that term.) and conclude that there is no polarisation in US politics, and no basis for them to denounce Republicans or Trump.[/SARCASM]
  #35  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:14 PM
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You correctly capture the intensity of hatred, but you completely and absolutely miss the mark as to why the respective parties make those statements.

Democrats didn't go batshit absolutist simply because Republicans are the other team. This goes deeper than that. Trump is uniquely horrible, he's verifiably done uniquely horrible things. I know you know this to be true.
Trump is an awful person and a inveterate liar. However, what has he done that is verifiable uniquely horrible? He has lied, but every politician lies, he just does it alot more often and alot more brazenly. He has been personally petty and said mean and stupid things on twitter, but that it easy to ignore.
  #36  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:16 PM
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This thread is unfolding like many of the other dozen+ threads we've had over the past few years of "Why do Trump supporters support Trump?"



Step 1: "Why do Trump voters support him?"
Step 2: (Someone explains why Trump voters support him)
Step 3: "But that's WRONG of them! They SHOULDN'T support him!"



To which my response is - are you looking for a discussion, or a quarrel? Because when people explain why some vote for Trump (or support Hitler, or join ISIS, or become Klansmen, or become school shooters, or whatever) and you then lash out at the explanation itself, that's counterproductive to the discussion.
I'm guilty of having asked this question in the past and I've resolved not to ask it. I have not resolved to not respond to it.

But you're absolutely right about there being no justification for supporting Hitler, ISIS, KKK, mass shooters, and Trump&Co. None. People offering justification as those posted here and in other threads like this, should stop doing so. Because it's an indefensible position to hold.
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  #37  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:20 PM
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People offering justification as those posted here and in other threads like this, should stop doing so. Because it's an indefensible position to hold.
There's a difference between explanation and justification. Almost no one in this thread is supporting Trump (and the OP actually did want Trump voters themselves to show up and talk.)
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:24 PM
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Plenty of Republicans grit their teeth and support him because they can manipulate him into doing things they want.
Well at least you supplied an answer to the OP, although I'm not sure that was your intention.

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The overwhelming majority of Trump supporters are bigots, racists, ignorant, fearful and resentful of having their prejudiced views challenged for years by more progressive views of fellow countrymen. The Trump Derangement Syndrome has affected those on the right as well. It's turned them into mindless MAGAcultists. Saying both sides are equally deranged is disingenuous and it would behoove you to not equate the two because the motives of the MAGATS are demonstrably dangerous and destructive to American society. What can progressives be credibly accused of forcing the right to do? Being tolerant of gays, minorities and trans people? Forcing everyone to have access to healthcare, clean water, education and a planet worth living on? Seriously. Has your argument ever worked on anyone who didn't already agree with you?
[SARCASM]Right, no Trump Derangement Syndrome in that paragraph at all. Nothing polarising or tribal or insulting to a Trump supporter, turning them away from Democrat arguments.[/SARCASM] Seriously. Has your argument ever worked on anyone who didn't already agree with you?
  #39  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:27 PM
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There's a difference between explanation and justification. Almost no one in this thread is supporting Trump (and the OP actually did want Trump voters themselves to show up and talk.)
As you've pointed out, we've had these conversations before and actual Trump supporters did respond and offered "explanations", which were very much distinctions without a difference from "justifications".
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  #40  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:30 PM
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This thread is unfolding like many of the other dozen+ threads we've had over the past few years of "Why do Trump supporters support Trump?"



Step 1: "Why do Trump voters support him?"
Step 2: (Someone explains why Trump voters support him)
Step 3: "But that's WRONG of them! They SHOULDN'T support him!"
On the SDMB, all three steps are from liberals. And Step 3 only becomes necessary when one of the very few Trump supporters, who doesn't mind being screamed at and insulted (and being banned if he screams or insults back) actually takes on Step 2, it is invariably followed by Step 3 consisting of "no, that isn't why - it is bigotry, homophobia, racism, evil, etc."

The SDMB is 80-90% those who wouldn't vote for Trump in a million years. And who also wouldn't vote for Bush, McCain, Romney, Pence, Ryan, or anyone else who ever got the Republican nomination in a million years. Maybe they would be marginally less hyperbolic about it, but they would still never vote for a Republican.

The basic rule is, 40% or so of the American public is stupid because they will automatically vote for anyone with an R after his name. Another 40% are smart because they will automatically vote for anyone with a D after his/her/their name.

Easy-peezy lemon squeezy.

Regards,
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  #41  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:32 PM
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I hope this doesn't sound like quibbling, but, ignorance, bigotry, fear and resentment are their core tribal values; the cult they have always been.
I meant a personality cult, which has its own set of psychological traits independent of any politics or cultural values. It is this which ensures that nothing whatsoever, even death itself, would change the mind of a trumpist. They would have to be extracted, de-programmed, etc. like any member of a cult.
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:36 PM
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On the SDMB, all three steps are from liberals. And Step 3 only becomes necessary when one of the very few Trump supporters, who doesn't mind being screamed at and insulted (and being banned if he screams or insults back) actually takes on Step 2, it is invariably followed by Step 3 consisting of "no, that isn't why - it is bigotry, homophobia, racism, evil, etc."

The SDMB is 80-90% those who wouldn't vote for Trump in a million years. And who also wouldn't vote for Bush, McCain, Romney, Pence, Ryan, or anyone else who ever got the Republican nomination in a million years. Maybe they would be marginally less hyperbolic about it, but they would still never vote for a Republican.

The basic rule is, 40% or so of the American public is stupid because they will automatically vote for anyone with an R after his name. Another 40% are smart because they will automatically vote for anyone with a D after his/her/their name.

Easy-peezy lemon squeezy.

Regards,
Shodan
You are wrong. There are plenty of dopers who would vote for a moderate or even sane republican if there was a choice between that person and trump. I don't think Ryan or Pence qualify under those criteria and the others are damn iffy but compared to trump, really, anything and anyone is better. He is a hideous human being utterly unfit for any office or really anything at all.

You do not see how bizarrely and uniquely despicable he is AS A PERSON irrespective of his party, and that in itself is truly bizarre.
  #43  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:40 PM
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[SARCASM]Right, no Trump Derangement Syndrome in that paragraph at all. Nothing polarising or tribal or insulting to a Trump supporter, turning them away from Democrat arguments.[/SARCASM] Seriously. Has your argument ever worked on anyone who didn't already agree with you?
No. My chief weapons are ridicule, shame and condescension. And an almost fanatical devotion to the Clintons.

*I trust that needs no theatrical notation.
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  #44  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:45 PM
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Trump is an awful person and a inveterate liar. However, what has he done that is verifiable uniquely horrible? He has lied, but every politician lies, he just does it alot more often and alot more brazenly. He has been personally petty and said mean and stupid things on twitter, but that it easy to ignore.
He's put children in concentration camps and made racism the basis for immigration policy. Perhaps you don't find these uniquely horrible.
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  #45  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:53 PM
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I donít support Trump ďthe man.Ē I think heís an idiot and an incompetent leader and Iím scared for the future of the country with him in charge.

However, Iím also scared for the future of the country with Democratic policies enacted.

Not a great situation, but here we are.
  #46  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:53 PM
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On the SDMB, all three steps are from liberals. And Step 3 only becomes necessary when one of the very few Trump supporters, who doesn't mind being screamed at and insulted (and being banned if he screams or insults back) actually takes on Step 2, it is invariably followed by Step 3 consisting of "no, that isn't why - it is bigotry, homophobia, racism, evil, etc."

The SDMB is 80-90% those who wouldn't vote for Trump in a million years. And who also wouldn't vote for Bush, McCain, Romney, Pence, Ryan, or anyone else who ever got the Republican nomination in a million years. Maybe they would be marginally less hyperbolic about it, but they would still never vote for a Republican.

The basic rule is, 40% or so of the American public is stupid because they will automatically vote for anyone with an R after his name. Another 40% are smart because they will automatically vote for anyone with a D after his/her/their name.

Easy-peezy lemon squeezy.

Regards,
Shodan
It may be fairly said that traditionally, ~40% vote for progressive principles, ~40% vote for conservative principles. From my observation, progressives continue to support traditionally progressive principles based on human rights and freedoms. That has become less and less true for conservatives who wish to oppose those principles for various minorities and women. So while your numbers may be correct with respect to voting behavior, they dismiss the all important motives of each grouping.
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  #47  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:56 PM
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Trump is an awful person and a inveterate liar. However, what has he done that is verifiable uniquely horrible? He has lied, but every politician lies, he just does it alot more often and alot more brazenly. He has been personally petty and said mean and stupid things on twitter, but that it easy to ignore.
Policies aside, his behavior has demonstrably emboldened some of the worst inclinations in many of his supporters, of which there are ~63M. Why should this be ignored?
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  #48  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:57 PM
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He's put children in concentration camps and made racism the basis for immigration policy. Perhaps you don't find these uniquely horrible.
He had done neither. Is there a real answer?
  #49  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:57 PM
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I donít support Trump ďthe man.Ē I think heís an idiot and an incompetent leader and Iím scared for the future of the country with him in charge.

However, Iím also scared for the future of the country with Democratic policies enacted.

Not a great situation, but here we are.
Which specific Democratic policies do you fear most and why?
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  #50  
Old 03-31-2020, 12:58 PM
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He's put children in concentration camps and made racism the basis for immigration policy. Perhaps you don't find these uniquely horrible.
No, theyíre not uniquely horrible, theyíre flawed attempts to deal with difficult problems that have no perfect solutions.
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