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  #51  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:00 PM
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Policies aside, his behavior has demonstrably emboldened some of the worst inclinations in many of his supporters, of which there are ~63M. Why should this be ignored?
If the worst inclinations of 63 million people were emboldened the country would be in flames. So far Bernie Sanders followers have done worse things and he is just a failed candidate.
  #52  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:06 PM
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He had done neither. Is there a real answer?
You are absolutely right. Detention of minors in border holding facilities resulting in several deaths, as well as scapegoating immigration policies aimed at Muslims and Mexicans is sufficiently deplorable without resorting to hyperbole such as "concentration camps".
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  #53  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:10 PM
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If the worst inclinations of 63 million people were emboldened the country would be in flames. So far Bernie Sanders followers have done worse things and he is just a failed candidate.
So the people showing up at Sanders rallies with Nazi flags and defacing his offices with swastikas.... just avid Bernie-Bros?

You're right. Ignore the smoke. Let's wait for a really good bonfire. You know how they draw a crowd.
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  #54  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:13 PM
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No, theyíre not uniquely horrible, theyíre flawed attempts to deal with difficult problems that have no perfect solutions.
Easy with that. You're getting the whitewash all over everything.
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  #55  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:15 PM
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 03-31-2020 at 01:16 PM.
  #56  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:20 PM
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You are absolutely right. Detention of minors in border holding facilities resulting in several deaths, as well as scapegoating immigration policies aimed at Muslims and Mexicans is sufficiently deplorable without resorting to hyperbole such as "concentration camps".
It's not hyperbolic in the least.
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  #57  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:21 PM
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You are wrong. There are plenty of dopers who would vote for a moderate or even sane republican if there was a choice between that person and trump.
No, I'm correct. In a choice between Trump and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between Bush and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between McCain and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between Romney and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between a moderate, centrist Republican and any Democrat - well, you can guess.
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You do not see how bizarrely and uniquely despicable he is AS A PERSON irrespective of his party, and that in itself is truly bizarre.
In terms of whether or not to vote for him, Trump isn't unique. The yellow dog Democrats on the SDMB will never vote for him. Just like every other Republican in the last twenty years.

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  #58  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:31 PM
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They don't necessarily like him personally or what he says, but they just don't care as long as he gives them what they want. He can say anything, lie, smear, break "norms", whatever, as long as their agenda, and not the democrat agenda, gets advanced. That's the overall gist. I'm sure a lot of tribalism, and joy of "pwning the libs" is sprinkled in there as well, but that's going to vary more by individual.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:33 PM
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No, I'm correct. In a choice between Trump and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between Bush and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between McCain and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between Romney and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between a moderate, centrist Republican and any Democrat - well, you can guess.In terms of whether or not to vote for him, Trump isn't unique. The yellow dog Democrats on the SDMB will never vote for him. Just like every other Republican in the last twenty years.

Regards,
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but all these guys were pro-life. Some started out pro-choice but through "crisis of conscience" (read: Evangelical lobby) returned to Jesus.

Most Democrat voters on the other hand, are pro-choice and remained so through those years.
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  #60  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:44 PM
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Trump is an awful person and a inveterate liar. However, what has he done that is verifiable uniquely horrible? He has lied, but every politician lies, he just does it alot more often and alot more brazenly. He has been personally petty and said mean and stupid things on twitter, but that it easy to ignore.
Verifiably uniquely horrible?
  • He has decimated our state department.
  • He has politicized our judicial branch and used his bully pulpit to instill doubts in its integrity
  • He has weakened our trust in journalistic institutions and spread conspiracy theories
  • He has abandoned some of our allies (the Kurds), weakened our relationships with others (Canada and Europe), and emboldened our enemies (Russia, North Korea). I could go on.
  • He has decimated the environmental protection agency.
  • He has attacked science on many fronts.
  • He has normalized profiting off of government service.
  • He has weakened the rule of law.
  • He has regularly used his bully pulpit to accuse political opponents of being traitors and enemies of the country.
  • He has damaged our intelligence agencies (the tip of the sword).
I could come up with more and I am sure we could argue about some of these, but this guy is a menace. Can you imagine when we get a left leaning populist in office and they pick up the tools that Trump has developed? You will only have yourself to blame.

I think some of the things he has done are probably good for our country. I can see other things he has done that would make conservatives happy and are part of the ebb and flow of our society. But overall, this guy has really done some serious damage to our country and the Republicans have let him, nay, they have cheered him on. Fucking disgraceful.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:50 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but all these guys were pro-life. Some started out pro-choice but through "crisis of conscience" (read: Evangelical lobby) returned to Jesus.

Most Democrat voters on the other hand, are pro-choice and remained so through those years.
How many democrats would vote for a pro-life republican? How many republicans would vote for a pro-choice democrat?

You're never going to have an openly pro-choice Republican nominee, or an openly pro-life democrat nominee. These stances are simply not allowed under the respective party tents.

This, and other hot button issues like gun control, are non-starters for a lot of people.
  #62  
Old 03-31-2020, 01:53 PM
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No, I'm correct. In a choice between Trump and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between Bush and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between McCain and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between Romney and any Democrat, they will go with the Democrat. In a choice between a moderate, centrist Republican and any Democrat - well, you can guess.In terms of whether or not to vote for him, Trump isn't unique. The yellow dog Democrats on the SDMB will never vote for him. Just like every other Republican in the last twenty years.

Regards,
Shodan
You are full of shit. I was a McCain supporter in 2000; he was my leading choice. I would have supported him in 2008 except for his toadying to Bush over the previous 8 years and then choosing Palin. I liked Romney too, but I liked Obama better and thought he deserved another term. Jon Huntsman is another Republican I would have supported.

I also think Bush the senior was probably the best President we have had since Eisenhower. Trump and Bush have been the worst.

Really though, I am a fiscal conservative so I tend to support Democrats. Republicans have a proven history over the last 40 years of increasing the debt and fucking up the economy.
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:05 PM
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You are full of shit. I was a McCain supporter in 2000; he was my leading choice. I would have supported him in 2008 except for his toadying to Bush over the previous 8 years and then choosing Palin. I liked Romney too, but I liked Obama better and thought he deserved another term. Jon Huntsman is another Republican I would have supported.

I also think Bush the senior was probably the best President we have had since Eisenhower. Trump and Bush have been the worst.

Really though, I am a fiscal conservative so I tend to support Democrats. Republicans have a proven history over the last 40 years of increasing the debt and fucking up the economy.
So have you voted Republican in the general in the last 28 years?

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  #64  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:12 PM
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How many democrats would vote for a pro-life republican? How many republicans would vote for a pro-choice democrat?

You're never going to have an openly pro-choice Republican nominee, or an openly pro-life democrat nominee. These stances are simply not allowed under the respective party tents.

This, and other hot button issues like gun control, are non-starters for a lot of people.
You're confirming my earlier posts in that progressives have, ummm, progressed, while Republicans have regressed. We can go down the list:
- Abortion
- Gun control
- LGBTQ
- Social safety net programs
- Healthcare
- Education
- Voting rights
...on and on...

It would be one thing to insist that the size of the population that wants more progressive policies was declining, but it isn't. So it can be fairly said that one party is responding to demand of progressive social change, while the other is responding to the fear of social change.
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  #65  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:15 PM
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So have you voted Republican in the general in the last 28 years?
Once.

The only times I have not voted for a Democrat for President were voting for Ron Paul in 88 and George Bush in 92. I have supported Republicans in other races, though not lately. To be honest, I can't imagine supporting them ever again with what they have become though on many policies I am more in agreement with them than the Democrats. I blame Fox News.
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:17 PM
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[SARCASM]Well that solves the OP's issue then. Everyone in this thread should read the Republican Party platform. They'll find that it contains measured reasonable ideas, which they may disagree with, but have a rational basis. They can then ignore all the noise about the right (I hope it's okay for me to use that term.) and conclude that there is no polarisation in US politics, and no basis for them to denounce Republicans or Trump.[/SARCASM]
What a bullshit response. This thread is specifically about why some people support Trump, with all of his lies and incompetence. You made it a general statement about "leftists" and then took my response as a broadbrush against the Republican Party. Jeez.
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:20 PM
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So it can be fairly said that one party is responding to demand of progressive social change, while the other is responding to the fear of social change.
Well, yeah, that's basically the definition of American progressiveness and conservatism. Conservatives by and large don't like change.
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:22 PM
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Almost all of these responses are off-topic because none of them explain the continued support for Trump and his shenanigans.
  #69  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:24 PM
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Well, yeah, that's basically the definition of American progressiveness and conservatism. Conservatives by and large don't like change.
History teaches us that this is not a sustainable strategy.
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  #70  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:30 PM
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I've asked this to a Trump supporting acquaintance of mine.

Simply put: Trump has not done anything a President Pence or President Cruz would have done. But one thing Trump has done that he didn't believe they would is cause a culture war. An onslaught on the press, institutions, and the other side. It's the idea that Trump loves being hated by the other side as much, if not more, than he loves being loved by his side. This guy however says when Romney and McCain ran they wanted to be liked. The other side went after them in 2008 and 2012 yet those two still wanted to reach out. Now he looks at how McCain and Romney are seen as 'decent' and 'respectable' after their defeats and feels vindicated in supporting Trump who won by sticking a middle finger up at opponents.
  #71  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:32 PM
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History teaches us that this is not a sustainable strategy.
What isn't? Progressives pushing something, succeeding, becoming the "new norm" that eventually conservatives accept and even defend over time? All conservatives do is slow the progression, they can't stop anything. Not permanently.
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:36 PM
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Almost all of these responses are off-topic because none of them explain the continued support for Trump and his shenanigans.
I think this is a question no longer worth the asking except as a rhetorical.

Nobody on this board will come out and admit that they are on board with the racism, bigotry, anti-intellectualism, anti-freedom of speech, anti-liberalism, anti-immigration as long as they get to keep their guns & money. It can't go without saying that not every Republican wants this. But everyone who wants this tends to vote Republican.
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  #73  
Old 03-31-2020, 03:06 PM
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So the people showing up at Sanders rallies with Nazi flags and defacing his offices with swastikas.... just avid Bernie-Bros?

You're right. Ignore the smoke. Let's wait for a really good bonfire. You know how they draw a crowd.
63 million people have shown up to Sanders rallies with Nazi flags? That should have been covered by the news.

How many have shown up to a baseball practice and attempted to kill a bunch of democrats?
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:21 PM
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Nobody on this board will come out and admit that they are on board with the racism, bigotry, anti-intellectualism, anti-freedom of speech, anti-liberalism, anti-immigration as long as they get to keep their guns & money.
I am not a Trump supporter, but I am a conservative of sorts and open to voting for republicans (I'm a socially libertarian atheist that grew up in a very conservative family and not all of that rubbed off of me). I have a lot of conservative family members and some conservative friends. I have explained why I think people are behind Trump. Many people have, I think, mostly accurately explained it here. If that's not good enough then so be it. But I don't see any point of someone raising their hand to be called a ratfuck fascist/racist/homophobe/etc. etc, which has already basically preemptively happened.
  #75  
Old 03-31-2020, 03:27 PM
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Is mainstream political discourse in the US as polarised as the posts in this thread? If so, there's your answer. If a prominent message from the left is that the views of the right are contemptible, then the right is going to be deaf to all messages from the left. So just like the left would prefer the rotting corpse of Hitler over Trump, the right would prefer literally any Republican over a leftist.
You didn't click my link, did you?
  #76  
Old 03-31-2020, 03:29 PM
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Verifiably uniquely horrible?
  • He has decimated our state department.
  • He has politicized our judicial branch and used his bully pulpit to instill doubts in its integrity
  • He has weakened our trust in journalistic institutions and spread conspiracy theories
  • He has abandoned some of our allies (the Kurds), weakened our relationships with others (Canada and Europe), and emboldened our enemies (Russia, North Korea). I could go on.
  • He has decimated the environmental protection agency.
  • He has attacked science on many fronts.
  • He has normalized profiting off of government service.
  • He has weakened the rule of law.
  • He has regularly used his bully pulpit to accuse political opponents of being traitors and enemies of the country.
  • He has damaged our intelligence agencies (the tip of the sword).
I could come up with more and I am sure we could argue about some of these, but this guy is a menace. Can you imagine when we get a left leaning populist in office and they pick up the tools that Trump has developed? You will only have yourself to blame.

I think some of the things he has done are probably good for our country. I can see other things he has done that would make conservatives happy and are part of the ebb and flow of our society. But overall, this guy has really done some serious damage to our country and the Republicans have let him, nay, they have cheered him on. Fucking disgraceful.
Most of these are demonstrably false.
The State Department is still there, no seeming difference in effectiveness.
The judicial branch has politicized the judicial branch. Trump has appointed some of the best judges on there.
Journalistic institutions have damaged their own reputations through obvious bias and incompetence.
I have not seen any sign of weak relationships with Canada and Europe. Russia and North Korea are as they have always been. Russia is much weaker now because of low oil prices.
The EPA is still there, pollution and carbon emissions continue to fall.
Profiting off of government service has been normal for living memory. Clinton raised hundreds of millions for her foundation from countries she was negotiating with and nobody batted an eye.
The rule of law is still here.
His opponents have called him a traitor and an enemy of the country.
How do we know that the intelligence agencies have been hurt? The campaign against ISIS was notably better under him than Trump but other than that I can't see any difference.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:29 PM
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63 million people have shown up to Sanders rallies with Nazi flags? That should have been covered by the news.

How many have shown up to a baseball practice and attempted to kill a bunch of democrats?
Really? This is the best you can do? Should I go and find you cites about the sharp rise in incidents of racism, nazi rallies, shootings, etc. since Trump took office? Or do you just want to take this back as something said in the rush of the moment without thinking?
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  #78  
Old 03-31-2020, 03:32 PM
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You are full of shit. I was a McCain supporter in 2000; he was my leading choice. I would have supported him in 2008 except for his toadying to Bush over the previous 8 years and then choosing Palin. I liked Romney too, but I liked Obama better and thought he deserved another term. Jon Huntsman is another Republican I would have supported.

I also think Bush the senior was probably the best President we have had since Eisenhower. Trump and Bush have been the worst.

Really though, I am a fiscal conservative so I tend to support Democrats. Republicans have a proven history over the last 40 years of increasing the debt and fucking up the economy.
Typical McCain supporter, thought he was great but did not vote for him.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:38 PM
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63 million people have shown up to Sanders rallies with Nazi flags? That should have been covered by the news.

How many have shown up to a baseball practice and attempted to kill a bunch of democrats?
I'm confused at how Bernie supports have harmed our country. I don't like Bernie, but mostly I think he is harmless. What has he (and they) done?

And why aren't Republicans upset that Trump has damaged our institutions so badly? How do you, and other conservatives in this thread, feel about the list I directed at you ~15 posts ago? Are you concerned about how Trump treats the intelligence services and the FBI? What about him calling out Democrat judges and Republican judges (never mind "Mexican" judges)? Does it bother you that he regularly gets up in front of crowds of thousands and literally says that "Democrats are the enemy of the United States?" If Obama had done this I would probably never supported Democrats again! Republicans aren't the enemy; many of my friends and family are Republicans and they are good people. Trump and Fox news are trying to start a war, at least that is what it looks like to me.

I understand partisanship. I think a lot of Republican ideas are wrong. I also think that a lot of the Democratic party platform is wrong. I think that a Sanders presidency would be a disaster, maybe even a worse one than the Trump presidency has been (doubtful, but possible). But the big problem with Trump is he takes partisanship to the next level. He claims that my neighbors and my family are enemies. He claims that the institutions that I believe in are evil while flouting the rules and norms that I believe made this country a shining city on a hill. The rule of law, equality, American ingenuity, American generosity. Now we have a country that ignores and denies science and a president that embraces racists and glorifies strongmen and dictators. What the fuck? He has made us less that what we were and Republicans don't care. They love him for it.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:40 PM
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Most of these are demonstrably false.
The State Department is still there, no seeming difference in effectiveness.
The judicial branch has politicized the judicial branch. Trump has appointed some of the best judges on there.
Journalistic institutions have damaged their own reputations through obvious bias and incompetence.
I have not seen any sign of weak relationships with Canada and Europe. Russia and North Korea are as they have always been. Russia is much weaker now because of low oil prices.
The EPA is still there, pollution and carbon emissions continue to fall.
Profiting off of government service has been normal for living memory. Clinton raised hundreds of millions for her foundation from countries she was negotiating with and nobody batted an eye.
The rule of law is still here.
His opponents have called him a traitor and an enemy of the country.
How do we know that the intelligence agencies have been hurt? The campaign against ISIS was notably better under him than Trump but other than that I can't see any difference.
We must use different data sources.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:43 PM
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Really? This is the best you can do? Should I go and find you cites about the sharp rise in incidents of racism, nazi rallies, shootings, etc. since Trump took office? Or do you just want to take this back as something said in the rush of the moment without thinking?
Sure, anytime someone tries to support what they are saying with actual numbers it is appreciated. To get you started here is a report from the Bureau of Justice that shows hate crimes have been going down for a decade and have fallen 31% since 2009.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:59 PM
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We must use different data sources.
What data sources are you using?
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:59 PM
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Which specific Democratic policies do you fear most and why?
Itís more than just policies. Democrats donít value the same things I do.

The Democrats demonize business, success, and wealth, and seem to instinctively believe that anything that harms businesses is good for the country.

They have fundamentally different priorities than me in terms of what outcomes we should optimize for and what a fair and free society looks like.

They are authoritarian and dictatorial - identifying what they believe is the right outcome or the right way to do things, and trying to pass laws that mandate it for everyone. Often this is counterproductive and their solution causes more harm than the original harm they were trying to right, not to mention imposes their will on people who disagrees with them.

Democrats are okay with the idea that government and the democratic process should exert strong control and influence over all aspects of a personís life, in order to shape society towards what they view as a ďbetterĒ outcome and protect people from perceived harms. I disagree that this is an appropriate function of government.

At times, I agree with Democrats on the general goal of their policy, but because of fundamental differences on principles like these, I find that I strenuously object to their actual proposal (if a concrete proposal exists), or donít trust that their actual proposal wonít have some damaging side effect.

Now, the Republicans are not perfect on these axes either, but I find myself better aligned with them than the Democrats. I would vote for a hypothetical pro-business Democrat in a second, or a pro-intellectual Republican. But these donít exist - and if itís Trump vs. Bernie, Iím voting for Trump.
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Old 03-31-2020, 04:14 PM
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I'm confused at how Bernie supports have harmed our country. I don't like Bernie, but mostly I think he is harmless. What has he (and they) done?

And why aren't Republicans upset that Trump has damaged our institutions so badly? How do you, and other conservatives in this thread, feel about the list I directed at you ~15 posts ago? Are you concerned about how Trump treats the intelligence services and the FBI? What about him calling out Democrat judges and Republican judges (never mind "Mexican" judges)? Does it bother you that he regularly gets up in front of crowds of thousands and literally says that "Democrats are the enemy of the United States?" If Obama had done this I would probably never supported Democrats again! Republicans aren't the enemy; many of my friends and family are Republicans and they are good people. Trump and Fox news are trying to start a war, at least that is what it looks like to me.

I understand partisanship. I think a lot of Republican ideas are wrong. I also think that a lot of the Democratic party platform is wrong. I think that a Sanders presidency would be a disaster, maybe even a worse one than the Trump presidency has been (doubtful, but possible). But the big problem with Trump is he takes partisanship to the next level. He claims that my neighbors and my family are enemies. He claims that the institutions that I believe in are evil while flouting the rules and norms that I believe made this country a shining city on a hill. The rule of law, equality, American ingenuity, American generosity. Now we have a country that ignores and denies science and a president that embraces racists and glorifies strongmen and dictators. What the fuck? He has made us less that what we were and Republicans don't care. They love him for it.
Because they will tolerate or even endorse <insert bad Trump thing here> as long as he delivers on <insert policy they like>. They care about <insert policy they like here> more than <insert bad Trump thing here>. Is this really so hard? You don't have to like it or relate to it, and can certainly rail against it, but that's it in a nutshell. Trump is a pulsating middle finger to Democrats, but that's just a bonus. The stars just happened to align in a way that got Trump in there to do that. They would happily take a Romney, McCain, etc., AS LONG AS they got the shit they wanted done. As it turns out, so-called moderate Republicans don't have what it takes to win lately.
  #85  
Old 03-31-2020, 04:41 PM
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Step 1: "Why do Trump voters support him?"
Step 2: (Someone explains why Trump voters support him)
Step 3: "But that's WRONG of them! They SHOULDN'T support him!"

To which my response is - are you looking for a discussion, or a quarrel? Because when people explain why some folks vote for Trump (or support Hitler, or join ISIS, or become Klansmen, or become school shooters, or whatever) and you then lash out at the explanation itself, that's counterproductive to the discussion.
This really isn't it at all. More likely, step 2 is someone (such as yourself) insists that it's simple Hatfield vs McCoy tribalism. Someone like myself makes an effort to debunk this false reduction, which involves pointing out that Trump supporters believe that things aren't real.

At that point the conservative careens off onto some argumentative sidetrack because they're unable to concede this simple truth: Trump supporters support him because they believe things that are imaginary and false, and they hold irrational grievances.

They have reasons. They have no *rational* reasons. That's why these threads always play out like this. You can't reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 03-31-2020 at 04:43 PM.
  #86  
Old 03-31-2020, 04:55 PM
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Itís more than just policies. Democrats donít value the same things I do.

The Democrats demonize business, success, and wealth, and seem to instinctively believe that anything that harms businesses is good for the country.

They have fundamentally different priorities than me in terms of what outcomes we should optimize for and what a fair and free society looks like.

They are authoritarian and dictatorial - identifying what they believe is the right outcome or the right way to do things, and trying to pass laws that mandate it for everyone. Often this is counterproductive and their solution causes more harm than the original harm they were trying to right, not to mention imposes their will on people who disagrees with them.

Democrats are okay with the idea that government and the democratic process should exert strong control and influence over all aspects of a personís life, in order to shape society towards what they view as a ďbetterĒ outcome and protect people from perceived harms. I disagree that this is an appropriate function of government.

At times, I agree with Democrats on the general goal of their policy, but because of fundamental differences on principles like these, I find that I strenuously object to their actual proposal (if a concrete proposal exists), or donít trust that their actual proposal wonít have some damaging side effect.

Now, the Republicans are not perfect on these axes either, but I find myself better aligned with them than the Democrats. I would vote for a hypothetical pro-business Democrat in a second, or a pro-intellectual Republican. But these donít exist - and if itís Trump vs. Bernie, Iím voting for Trump.
I really enjoy reading posts like these because it makes me think a serious discussion can be had. You touched on some key points that I think deserve a more involved conversation. I hope you will stick around to have it.

1) Do you think that some of the world's largest corporations should receive subsidies and tax loopholes at the expense of the tax payers?

2) What does a free society look like to you?

3) Which specific policies and solutions have resulted in specifically negative outcomes? Which specific laws have caused more harm than good?

4) If not government, which institutions do you view as being better at protecting people from harm?
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  #87  
Old 03-31-2020, 04:57 PM
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He had done neither. Is there a real answer?
You're wrong, he's done both. Now that that has been settled, I'll assume your denial is based on your support of these policies, similar to how the right-wing belief that waterboarding isn't torture is based on their support of the practice rather than their encyclopedic understand of interrogation techniques. Glad we could have this productive conversation. Bye.
  #88  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:04 PM
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Sure, anytime someone tries to support what they are saying with actual numbers it is appreciated. To get you started here is a report from the Bureau of Justice that shows hate crimes have been going down for a decade and have fallen 31% since 2009.
That's weird, because I thought Obama was supposed to be so divisive.

BTW, those statistics stop in 2017. Anything newer?

Here's one that says they reached a 15 year high in 2018: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/12/u...bi-report.html

Last edited by RitterSport; 03-31-2020 at 05:09 PM.
  #89  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:05 PM
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Almost all of these responses are off-topic because none of them explain the continued support for Trump and his shenanigans.
What does support even mean here? What action am I supposed to take?

I don't like Trump, for many of the reasons you all have listed here. I wish we had a competent Republican in charge. But I'm not going to turn into a Democrat just because Trump is an idiot. Trump or not, I still support Republican policies in general, and I want to see them enacted. What do you expect me to do?
  #90  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:07 PM
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This really isn't it at all. More likely, step 2 is someone (such as yourself) insists that it's simple Hatfield vs McCoy tribalism. Someone like myself makes an effort to debunk this false reduction, which involves pointing out that Trump supporters believe that things aren't real.

At that point the conservative careens off onto some argumentative sidetrack because they're unable to concede this simple truth: Trump supporters support him because they believe things that are imaginary and false, and they hold irrational grievances.

They have reasons. They have no *rational* reasons. That's why these threads always play out like this. You can't reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.
*Sigh* Or people conveniently ignore things that aren't Hatfield and McCoyisms. Like specific policies and agendas. Is stacking the courts with conservative judges a "Hatfield and McCoyism?" Is "decimating institutions" (i.e. making the government smaller - there are mainstream republicans want to eliminate ENTIRE departments) a "Hatfield and McCoyism"? Is being "anti-choice" a "Hatfield and McCoyism?" Is being hardline on 2A issues a "Hatfield and McCoyism?" Is wanting strong borders and anti-illegal-immigration a "Hatfield and McCoyism?" You can argue that wanting those things is "irrational" but that's just, like, your opinion man.

Look, Trump tells Republicans what they want to hear. And he sometimes even oversteps that. For example, we all know that Trump couldn't care less about abortion (and probably a lot of other things). Yet early on in his presidency, when asked about it, he said he thought women who have abortions should go to jail. He had to get corrected on that, as Republicans want the doctors held responsible. He is imagining what Republicans want almost as much as democrats do.
  #91  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:14 PM
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What does support even mean here? What action am I supposed to take?

I don't like Trump, for many of the reasons you all have listed here. I wish we had a competent Republican in charge. But I'm not going to turn into a Democrat just because Trump is an idiot. Trump or not, I still support Republican policies in general, and I want to see them enacted. What do you expect me to do?
Eschew fascism. Supporting racist policies for the sake of a tax cut or a desire to let factories poison the water is no better than supporting racist policies because one is a racist.
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  #92  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Absolute View Post
What does support even mean here? What action am I supposed to take?

I don't like Trump, for many of the reasons you all have listed here. I wish we had a competent Republican in charge. But I'm not going to turn into a Democrat just because Trump is an idiot. Trump or not, I still support Republican policies in general, and I want to see them enacted. What do you expect me to do?
Can you explicate which Republican policies you support that you think Democrats don't also support?

Hillary Clinton was basically an Eisenhower Republican, after all. When it comes down to cases, Republicans and Democrats agree about a lot of things. The economy and the military should be strong. It is in the best interest of the country to maintain American leadership in international affairs. People should be free to do as they please, although shitting in someone else's water supply is bad. Law and order are good.

You know, that kind of thing.

So what specific Republican policies do you support that you think Democrats don't?
  #93  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:20 PM
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What does support even mean here? What action am I supposed to take?

I don't like Trump, for many of the reasons you all have listed here. I wish we had a competent Republican in charge. But I'm not going to turn into a Democrat just because Trump is an idiot. Trump or not, I still support Republican policies in general, and I want to see them enacted. What do you expect me to do?
Here's what the OP is asking:

Quote:
I would love to hear back from some Trump supporters (no attacking, I am truly curious to understand)

We have so much factual/video evidence of Trump either flat out lying and denying his mistruths combined with his self grand standing that I often wonder how a true "team red" Trump supporter can rationally support the man (not the ideals, the man). How are you not embarassed to say you support him?

Is there ANY evidence that he has ever taken responsibility or even admitted ANY failure, being wrong or shortcoming? Does it not bother you that in his view he is the smartest, greatest, most tremendous man/POTUS ever?

Is it simply impossible in today's political climate to state that you support the GOP ideology but can recognize the man is in a very "clinical sense" a known pathelogical liar?....
Nothing about "I hate him but I love his policies" or "I see his faults, but I'll always vote Republican." No, it's specific to Trump and his, uh, foibles. There are still a few Trump supporters on the board, so maybe they can chime in.

I'm not a Trump supporter. I'd like to think that if a politician I supported lied so blatantly at me, I would no longer support him. I was really shaken after Clinton went on TV and said he did not have sex with that woman, and that turned out to be a lie. My respect for him plummeted and I think I would have voted for someone else if given the chance in the next election.

For a party that got all het up when Obama wore a tan suit, current Trump supporters are certainly OK with debasing the office of the presidency now.

To me, Trump is uniquely bad, and that is evident with the number of prominent conservatives that have come out as Never-Trumpers. I don't remember that happening with any other candidate for either party.
  #94  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:38 PM
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What data sources are you using?
It varies, whatever sources I can see on the internet. I have noticed the algorithms like to feed me things to pump my blood up, so I try to log out of the various sources and clear cookies to see how things change or occasionally like blatantly partisan pieces on both sides of the aisle to shake things up. It is amazing how insidious the AI is in feeding partisan material.

Most of my news comes from newspapers and news organizations: (in order of how often I read stuff) AP and Reuters, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times and then down market newspapers like the Tribune or the LA Times. Broadcast news (which I don't get much of) I get from mostly the BBC. For opinion, I will read almost anything sent to me and will typically only dislike it if it isn't well thought out. I like Reason (almost all), some stuff from Slate (about half), much of the Economist, WSJ (most), some in NYT, some of the American Conservative. Really, what turns me off on a source if it believes it's shit doesn't stink. If you read Huffpo or stuff like newmax, you will see they are completely incapable of finding fault with their side. A lot of the Fox opinion folks and the MSNBC folks fall into this camp also.

How about you?
  #95  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:40 PM
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I really enjoy reading posts like these because it makes me think a serious discussion can be had. You touched on some key points that I think deserve a more involved conversation. I hope you will stick around to have it.

1) Do you think that some of the world's largest corporations should receive subsidies and tax loopholes at the expense of the tax payers?

2) What does a free society look like to you?

3) Which specific policies and solutions have resulted in specifically negative outcomes? Which specific laws have caused more harm than good?

4) If not government, which institutions do you view as being better at protecting people from harm?
1) No.

2) A free society is one that values and protects everyone's ability to make their own choices and decisions, as long as those decisions don't harm others.

3) A great example is the 80/20 rule in the Affordable Care Act. Democrats decided that the big, evil insurance companies were making too much profit. So they decided to legislate that insurance companies were simply not allowed to make more than 20% profit from insurance premiums. The result? Insurance companies now have an incentive to increase costs, because it allows them to charge higher premiums and thus make a higher profit.

Another example: fuel economy regulations. Democrats decided that they wanted to reduce fuel consumption. So they constructed a formula in the CAFE standard determining how much fuel a vehicle is allowed to consume, based on its overall size. The result - manufacturers started building larger, less-efficient vehicles because these were easier to hit CAFE targets.

Student loans - the entire student loan and cost of education crisis was created by government's well-intentioned meddling in the student loan market.

4) Oh, I think it's appropriate for government to protect people from harm - but I'm mostly concerned with physical harm, whereas many Democratic policies are motivated by concern for economic harm, emotional harm, etc. "My landlord raised my rent" is not a harm.

Last edited by Absolute; 03-31-2020 at 05:45 PM.
  #96  
Old 03-31-2020, 06:07 PM
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Can you explicate which Republican policies you support that you think Democrats don't also support?

Hillary Clinton was basically an Eisenhower Republican, after all. When it comes down to cases, Republicans and Democrats agree about a lot of things. The economy and the military should be strong. It is in the best interest of the country to maintain American leadership in international affairs. People should be free to do as they please, although shitting in someone else's water supply is bad. Law and order are good.

You know, that kind of thing.

So what specific Republican policies do you support that you think Democrats don't?
Give me a break. You are arguing that, other than Trump, the Republican and Democratic parties are the same? I'm not sure what I could write in response here that would enlighten you.

In many domains, what I support is the Republican party's lack of a policy - the position that government does not have to step in and solve every problem. As an example - I do not think the government should regulate fuel economy in transportation, or the efficiency of household appliances.
  #97  
Old 03-31-2020, 06:17 PM
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So much for "rational conservative"

If you don't want to engage, so be it.
  #98  
Old 03-31-2020, 06:20 PM
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1) No.

2) A free society is one that values and protects everyone's ability to make their own choices and decisions, as long as those decisions don't harm others.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute View Post
3) A great example is the 80/20 rule in the Affordable Care Act. Democrats decided that the big, evil insurance companies were making too much profit. So they decided to legislate that insurance companies were simply not allowed to make more than 20% profit from insurance premiums. The result? Insurance companies now have an incentive to increase costs, because it allows them to charge higher premiums and thus make a higher profit.
Here is a chart of growth of healthcare costs year by year 1960-2018. The ACA is reported to have slowed the growth, not increased it. Is this not correct? Also, how does it make sense for them to raise the cost of a procedure? Can you explain this better?

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Originally Posted by Absolute View Post
Another example: fuel economy regulations. Democrats decided that they wanted to reduce fuel consumption. So they constructed a formula in the CAFE standard determining how much fuel a vehicle is allowed to consume, based on its overall size. The result - manufacturers started building larger, less-efficient vehicles because these were easier to hit CAFE targets.
Even larger vehicles are now far more fuel efficient than small vehicles in the past. A Ford Explored is equipped with an eco-boost 4 cyl engine. Americans like large cars. If they liked small cars, we'd be more like much of Europe, with higher standards than us, driving smaller clean diesels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute View Post
Student loans - the entire student loan and cost of education crisis was created by government's well-intentioned meddling in the student loan market.
Don't know enough to comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute View Post
4) Oh, I think it's appropriate for government to protect people from harm - but I'm mostly concerned with physical harm, whereas many Democratic policies are motivated by concern for economic harm, emotional harm, etc. "My landlord raised my rent" is not a harm.
Well, affordable housing is a human right. So there is significant harm in government not regulating that for very low income individuals and families. It seems to yield positive returns with respect to education, health and welfare of children, and welfare of elders. Ability for adults to find and keep a job. I don't know what you mean by "emotional harm".
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  #99  
Old 03-31-2020, 06:30 PM
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Itís more than just policies. Democrats donít value the same things I do.

The Democrats demonize business, success, and wealth, and seem to instinctively believe that anything that harms businesses is good for the country.

They have fundamentally different priorities than me in terms of what outcomes we should optimize for and what a fair and free society looks like.

They are authoritarian and dictatorial - identifying what they believe is the right outcome or the right way to do things, and trying to pass laws that mandate it for everyone. Often this is counterproductive and their solution causes more harm than the original harm they were trying to right, not to mention imposes their will on people who disagrees with them.

Democrats are okay with the idea that government and the democratic process should exert strong control and influence over all aspects of a personís life, in order to shape society towards what they view as a ďbetterĒ outcome and protect people from perceived harms. I disagree that this is an appropriate function of government.

At times, I agree with Democrats on the general goal of their policy, but because of fundamental differences on principles like these, I find that I strenuously object to their actual proposal (if a concrete proposal exists), or donít trust that their actual proposal wonít have some damaging side effect.

Now, the Republicans are not perfect on these axes either, but I find myself better aligned with them than the Democrats. I would vote for a hypothetical pro-business Democrat in a second, or a pro-intellectual Republican. But these donít exist - and if itís Trump vs. Bernie, Iím voting for Trump.
Much of this is demonstrably untrue. What Democrats demonize business, success, and wealth? All the Democrats I know are strongly capitalist. Sure, there are some nut jobs like Bernie (who is not a Democrat) or AOC, but the Republicans have a couple of actual Nazis that I could point to; are you saying that they represent the entire party? Capitalism has done more to bring people out of poverty than any system on earth, and I would say the vast majority of Democrats would agree to that. We are Americans after all.

What Democrats do want is a social safety net. They don't believe that their fellow citizens should be left to die in the street because they can't afford healthcare. They also don't think it is OK when a corporation's right to make money trumps a person's rights to live a healthy and prosperous life (thus their stances on environmental regulations).

I agree that Democrats can be authoritarian and dictatorial, but no more than the right. I think both of the parties (or sides) have had problems with this going back to the nations founding.

As far as exerting strong control over peoples lives, the Republican party has in their platform that porn should be illegal. They would force my daughter to carry a fetus to term because of their (essentially religious) belief that life begins at conception. They will not let my terminally ill father who lives every day in excruciating pain die with dignity. Hell, they won't even let me smoke a joint. If they had their way they also won't let my sister marry the love of her life (who is also a woman) or raise their child together. How can you get more controlling than that?

But you are right, the Democrats do want to exert control on peoples lives and I will agree with you that much of the control that they want to exert is bad. But Republicans have the same sins and to me many of the sins they have are much worse. The government has no place in people's bedrooms or in their family decisions, but Republicans have no problem justifying this interference. As a civil libertarian, I think the Democrats want to protect my freedoms more than the Republicans do.

The notable exception is with guns. Personally I am pro-gun and for the same reasons that many on the right are: I believe we need guns to protect ourselves from the government. While Republicans seem to be afraid of the federal government (Obama's coming to take your guns!), I am afraid of the police that seem to be OK with shooting you at the drop of a hat and have no duty to serve or protect. Luckily, I think that Democrats can't do shit here (and they don't really seem to be trying that hard) as the supreme court has spoken. Heller and McDonald were pretty clear that owning a gun is a constitutional right. I haven't seen the Democrats chipping away at this like the Republicans with Roe.

Many times I agree with some Republican goals (like their supposed fiscal conservatism), but how can I trust that they will actually work toward these goals? The Republicans in congress have abandoned PayGo rules whenever it was convenient. Trump cut taxes and drove deficits through the roof during a time of prosperity when we should have be reducing the deficit and debt. All the Republican Presidents since Reagan have sucked in the area with exception of H. W. Bush, and he lost his re-election because of it (read my lips!).

I would vote for a pragmatist Republican in a heartbeat, but we haven't had one since H.W. Bush. Well maybe Romney; I liked him but thought Obama was doing OK and deserved a second term. If it came down to Trump vs. Bernie, I would probably vote for Bernie because I think another 4 years of Trump would irrevocably change this country for the worse and I don't think Bernie could get much done. Luckily, it seems that this will not be the choice. I would vote for Biden in a second over Trump even though I think he will be an uninspired President.

We don't need a revolution, and we don't need to tear the government down. Trump is a fucking disaster.
  #100  
Old 03-31-2020, 06:36 PM
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Sure, anytime someone tries to support what they are saying with actual numbers it is appreciated. To get you started here is a report from the Bureau of Justice that shows hate crimes have been going down for a decade and have fallen 31% since 2009.
Recent results include the following:

NPR Reports.

Vox Reports: Hate crime up after Trump rallies.

Brookings had this to say:

Quote:
First, Donald Trumpís support in the 2016 campaign was clearly driven by racism, sexism, and xenophobia. While some observers have explained Trumpís success as a result of economic anxiety, the data demonstrate that anti-immigrant sentiment, racism, and sexism are much more strongly related to support for Trump. Trumpís much-discussed vote advantage with non-college-educated whites is misleading; when accounting for racism and sexism, the education gap among whites in the 2016 election returns to the typical levels of previous elections since 2000. Trump did not do especially well with non-college-educated whites, compared to other Republicans. He did especially well with white people who express sexist views about women and who deny racism exists.

Even more alarmingly, there is a clear correlation between Trump campaign events and incidents of prejudiced violence. FBI data show that since Trumpís election there has been an anomalous spike in hate crimes concentrated in counties where Trump won by larger margins. It was the second-largest uptick in hate crimes in the 25 years for which data are available, second only to the spike after September 11, 2001. Though hate crimes are typically most frequent in the summer, in 2016 they peaked in the fourth quarter (October-December). This new, higher rate of hate crimes continued throughout 2017.
So while we're not at 2009 levels, you cannot not say that hate crime has not increased during the Trump presidency.
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