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  #101  
Old 03-31-2020, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by The Tooth View Post
Eschew fascism. Supporting racist policies for the sake of a tax cut or a desire to let factories poison the water is no better than supporting racist policies because one is a racist.
Okay, I declare that I don't support racist policies. Is that sufficient non-support for you? What else would you like me to do?

I feel like the answer you're all looking for is "Vote for a Democrat". Here it is: racism at the level Trump has expressed it, is not sufficient for me to ignore all my other preferences and automatically vote for the Democrat.
  #102  
Old 03-31-2020, 07:27 PM
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Okay, I declare that I don't support racist policies. Is that sufficient non-support for you? What else would you like me to do?

I feel like the answer you're all looking for is "Vote for a Democrat". Here it is: racism at the level Trump has expressed it, is not sufficient for me to ignore all my other preferences and automatically vote for the Democrat.
How much racism would be too much racism?
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  #103  
Old 03-31-2020, 08:50 PM
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Okay, I declare that I don't support racist policies. Is that sufficient non-support for you? What else would you like me to do?
Vote to remove fascists from power. When you have two parties and one is is composed of fascists, it's the duty of a responsible citizen to vote for the other party.

Quote:
I feel like the answer you're all looking for is "Vote for a Democrat". Here it is: racism at the level Trump has expressed it, is not sufficient for me to ignore all my other preferences and automatically vote for the Democrat.
So long as you understand that aiding fascists without enthusiasm is no different than aiding them with it. One doesn't have to actively want to ban Muslims to prove one is a bigot who doesn't really believe in freedom of religion; merely allowing them to be banned because those doing it are giving one one's way is just as bad. Maybe worse.
  #104  
Old 03-31-2020, 10:27 PM
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A leftist is simply somebody from the left. I don't know what sinister meaning you're trying to imbue the word with. Communist, maybe? Feel free to substitute the word liberal if it will calm you down.

Is it a mainstream Democrat position that "Trump supporters believe in a constructed false reality. They simply believe things that are made-up and imagined."?

If the liberal vs conservative argument in the US is so inflamed that the above statement is a typical liberal position, then it's no wonder that US politics is so polarised. I'm sure if you go look, you can find an equally polarising statement about liberals from a conservative leaning message board. But if either or both sides are prominently generating messages that the other side is made up of nothing but irrational dupes, then all messages from whichever side are going to be rejected by the opposite side. The OP is asking a poisoned-well question, but he's essentially asking why a conservative would back Trump in spite of all his bad acts. The answer is that because the US is so polarised, he's opposing everyone in the liberal tribe. Trump may have issues, but at least he's in the conservative tribe. Is this rational? No. But neither is the Trump Derangement Syndrome that seems to have taken over the liberal mindset and is well-evidenced within this thread.
I, for one, do NOT feel that one has to be afflicted with the non-existent "Trump Derangement Syndrome" to realize what a horrible choice for Prez Hair Drumpf was in 2016 and what a horrible "president" he has turned out to be. And if one is to paint ALL of us who are anti-Drumpf as having "Trump Derangement Syndrome" then that person could at least have the decency to come up with a name for whatever has "afflicted" Republicans in their fawning attitude towards and unwavering support of that delinquent. Me? I kinda prefer "Trump Suck-Off Disease" for those on the "right" if they're gonna persist in referring to people like me as having "Trump Derangement Syndrome."
  #105  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:13 PM
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Democrats didn't go batshit absolutist simply because Republicans are the other team. This goes deeper than that. Trump is uniquely horrible, he's verifiably done uniquely horrible things.
We pinned the needle on expletives a while back. We had no words left to distinguish how bad Trump was compared to George W Bush and McCain.

Yes, Trump is extraordinarily bad. But we pinned the needle on outrage a while back. We had nothing left when something truly outrageous came along. Nothing but tears.
  #106  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:34 PM
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Absolute, just wanted to say thanks for your articulate and calmly-stated viewpoint. I appreciate people who can give rational alternative perspectives.
  #107  
Old 04-01-2020, 03:16 AM
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What a bullshit response. This thread is specifically about why some people support Trump, with all of his lies and incompetence. You made it a general statement about "leftists" and then took my response as a broadbrush against the Republican Party. Jeez.
You're saying the elements on the left that conservatives object to are the mainstream ones found in the Democratic Party platform. That's what bullshit. I'm throwing the same shit back at you. At least I recognised it and highlighted it as sarcasm.

Let's try this again. Republicans voted for Trump in 2016 because they wanted a Republican in the White House. And for the last three-plus years the general response to that from liberals in the United States has been scathing, insulting denunciation. My cite? This thread. Now liberals are asking Republicans why they haven't seen the error of their ways. But they’re phrasing the question, going by the OP, as “How are you not embarrassed to say you support him?” That’s not an attempt to ask an honest question. That’s an insult. I don’t think the OP actually wanted to know why Republicans are forting up around Donald Trump. But I think it’s an interesting question. I think “rightist” Republicans view American politics as an us vs them situation. The majority of discourse from the “them” side reinforces that view because it comes across as condemnation, if not outright attacks. I don’t believe it’s only the left that’s being polarising. But if you’re asking why Trump supporters aren’t moving away from Trump, my answer is that they’ve got nowhere worthwhile, in their view, to move too. “Come join us you idiot” isn’t a very effective recruiting message.
  #108  
Old 04-01-2020, 04:40 AM
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Trump supporters support him because they believe things that are imaginary and false, and they hold irrational grievances.
This statement to me is irrational. Trump supporters are Republicans, and they agree with the Republican platform. I just took a look at the highlights. https://www.gop.com/principles-for-american-renewal I don't want to turn this thread into an evaluation of Republican policy, but there's nothing imaginary or false there, whether or not you disagree with them. The issue is whether Republicans should support the standard bearer for those policies. Some don't. Some hold their noses, but do so in spite of reservations, choosing policy over personality. Some like Trump. I imagine most of them back Trump because he won. Some are the same set of people who like the "heel" in professional wrestling. And sure, some of them like Trump because he's sticking it to the liberal side that they have grievances with. But just because you disagree with somebody's position or motivations, it doesn't make them imaginary and false.
  #109  
Old 04-01-2020, 06:56 AM
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Okay, I declare that I don't support racist policies. Is that sufficient non-support for you? What else would you like me to do?

I feel like the answer you're all looking for is "Vote for a Democrat". Here it is: racism at the level Trump has expressed it, is not sufficient for me to ignore all my other preferences and automatically vote for the Democrat.
It rather sounds like racism is not a deal-breaker for you. Perhaps you could explain what other preferences you have that are more important than racism to you.

I think support for the Bigot-in-Chief all boils down to bigots loving someone who hates the same people that they do and shows that he can hurt the people that they think need to be hurt. That's the only ideology that matters to supporters of Sherbert Hoover.
  #110  
Old 04-01-2020, 06:57 AM
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I've said it before: Trump delivers the goods. He's loading the bench with conservatives who will swing the gavel for decades. He's cutting taxes for the billionaire class that controls America. He race baits for the racists. He checks all the boxes. Even those who don't like his race baiting and know damn well he's not Christian love the fact that he goes out of his way to appeal to Christians, and that's the bottom line. Republicans don't necessarily care if you're really a Republican; just deliver the goods at the end of the day, and all is well.

And to Velocity's point, maybe he's onto something. I don't necessarily care if Joe Biden's record suggests he's an inauthentic progressive if I can convince myself to believe that he would pander to progressive interests and causes enough to deliver on at least some of the things I care about. That also explains why Repubs may not be that jazzed up about Pence and why a lot of progressives aren't that smitten with Bernie: it's hard to get that excited about a candidate if you suspect he can't deliver the goods, for whatever reason - whether he's too dull (Pence) or too radical (Bernie). People want shit done.
  #111  
Old 04-01-2020, 07:00 AM
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It rather sounds like racism is not a deal-breaker for you. Perhaps you could explain what other preferences you have that are more important than racism to you.

I think support for the Bigot-in-Chief all boils down to bigots loving someone who hates the same people that they do and shows that he can hurt the people that they think need to be hurt. That's the only ideology that matters to supporters of Sherbert Hoover.
Of course it's not a deal breaker for him (if he's white). If he saves money on taxes and small business regulation gutting, if he bans abortion, it's all good - Trump delivers the groceries to the front door. If you're an Asian, Hispanic, or Black rich guy, then you need to think about whether the goods outweigh the race baiting.
  #112  
Old 04-01-2020, 07:05 AM
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This statement to me is irrational. Trump supporters are Republicans, and they agree with the Republican platform. I just took a look at the highlights. https://www.gop.com/principles-for-american-renewal I don't want to turn this thread into an evaluation of Republican policy, but there's nothing imaginary or false there, whether or not you disagree with them. The issue is whether Republicans should support the standard bearer for those policies. Some don't. Some hold their noses, but do so in spite of reservations, choosing policy over personality. Some like Trump. I imagine most of them back Trump because he won. Some are the same set of people who like the "heel" in professional wrestling. And sure, some of them like Trump because he's sticking it to the liberal side that they have grievances with. But just because you disagree with somebody's position or motivations, it doesn't make them imaginary and false.
I know you think you're providing insight. But all you're doing is stating the obvious. Everybody here realizes there are a variety of reasons why ~63M voted for Trump. We get it. The argument you keep avoiding or refusing to accept is that the justification many of them often use are based on ignorance, bigotry, racism, resentment and outright lies. The fact that a border wall needed building was imaginary and false. The fact that Mexico would pay for it was a lie. The fact that immigration was a threat to America was imaginary. The fact that the world would no longer be laughing at America was false. On and on. They all believed it, or chose to overlook the absurdity and bold faced lies for short term self interests of lower taxes and sticking it to the libs/dems. And for all but the wealthy, even lower taxes was a lie. But each in his/her own way was, and remains, complicit in electing and supporting Trump. Now some, I'm sure, are very good people.
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  #113  
Old 04-01-2020, 07:09 AM
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This statement to me is irrational. Trump supporters are Republicans, and they agree with the Republican platform. I just took a look at the highlights. https://www.gop.com/principles-for-american-renewal
It should not need reminding that Republicans had a choice of no less than 16 other actual Republicans in the field of 2016 GOP candidates. Many of whom were very qualified for government work and had real Republican/Conservative creds.

But did the Republican voters pick one of them? Did they fuck.
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  #114  
Old 04-01-2020, 09:39 AM
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I know you think you're providing insight. But all you're doing is stating the obvious. Everybody here realizes there are a variety of reasons why ~63M voted for Trump. We get it. The argument you keep avoiding or refusing to accept is that the justification many of them often use are based on ignorance, bigotry, racism, resentment and outright lies. The fact that a border wall needed building was imaginary and false. The fact that Mexico would pay for it was a lie. The fact that immigration was a threat to America was imaginary. The fact that the world would no longer be laughing at America was false. On and on. They all believed it, or chose to overlook the absurdity and bold faced lies for short term self interests of lower taxes and sticking it to the libs/dems. And for all but the wealthy, even lower taxes was a lie. But each in his/her own way was, and remains, complicit in electing and supporting Trump. Now some, I'm sure, are very good people.
Yes, I am rejecting the argument that Trump voters made the decision to vote for him "based on ignorance, bigotry, racism, <snip> and outright lies". I snipped resentment because I do think that was a big factor. Getting the outright lies out of the way first, of course Trump had a lot of bombast, some of it untruthful. Some people may have believed it, some people may have overlooked it. Trump's bombast probably helped him win the election. So what? US Presidential elections are largely a popularity contest. You want to demonise the people who responded to Trump's bombast? That's like demonising the circus-goers who responded to PT Barnum.

To your other points, I reject the idea that a majority, or even a significant minority, of Trump voters had malevolent intentions. America had largely the same set of voters in 2016 that it had in 2012. Are you saying that all the ignorant, bigoted and racist voters stayed home in 2012 because they didn't want to vote for Romney? Why, anti-Mormonism? For that matter, I was hearing a lot in 2016 that Obama would have won if he could have run for a third term. Are you exempting the Obama voters who voted for Trump from your categorisation of being ignorant, bigoted and racist? How about the non-white voters? If we keep chipping away at it, I think we'll find that the voters you dislike who you want to label as ignorant, bigoted and racist are simply white conservative voters. I think you're putting affronting labels on a demographic that doesn't vote the way you do. Yes, I reject that.

As to the OP, and why Trump voters are continuing to support him, I'll repeat myself one last time and state that my answer is the polarisation of American politics. If you've got a better answer, feel free to provide it. But if your best answer is one that simply demonises Trump supporters, then it's a pretty shoddy one.
  #115  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:12 AM
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That's weird, because I thought Obama was supposed to be so divisive.

BTW, those statistics stop in 2017. Anything newer?

Here's one that says they reached a 15 year high in 2018: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/12/u...bi-report.html
Obama was divisive but presidents have very little impact on specific types of crime.
Those are the latest statistics I could find.

The FBI statistics are based on reporting by law enforcement while the Bureau of Justice statistics are based on survey data. In most types of crime that distinction does not matter much. However in measuring hate crimes it matters a great deal.
Historically most jurisdictions did not have a separate category for hate crimes until recently. As a result, those jurisdictions did not report them to the FBI. Thus the FBI's cumulative numbers do not represent the whole country but only those who jurisdictions who collected the statistics and reported them. Since more jurisdictions have started reporting the cumulative totals have grown which tells us nothing about rates.
The BJS survey data has remained consistent and does not rely on jurisdictions keeping track. They are the only statistics that can be used to track rates and trends.
  #116  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:12 AM
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As to the OP, and why Trump voters are continuing to support him, I'll repeat myself one last time and state that my answer is the polarisation of American politics. If you've got a better answer, feel free to provide it. But if your best answer is one that simply demonises Trump supporters, then it's a pretty shoddy one.
The polarization is due to fundamental core moral principles. Demonstrably, one side wants a more just society while the other wan't the good old days back when whites felt better about themselves and minorities of all stripes felt much worse. The fact that as time passed more and more minorities were achieving equal rights, made racist (mostly whites) feel resentful. They've said it in as many words by passing laws that attempt to restrict LGBTQ rights and women's access to abortion. So when god finally saw fit to send them a bigot that was as inarticulate and loudmouthed as they are, they no longer felt ashamed. They felt empowered because he gave them the permission to be who they are. And they each came out motivated to vote in 2016 in the way that they were not in 2012. By about 4M more votes in fact. So you can reject whatever doesn't suit your narrative. Makes no difference. Given the opportunity to vote for 16 other more qualified, arguably more mainstream GOP candidates, they chose the loudest, dumbest, bigot who spoke to their heart of hearts. They could have stayed home if they didn't want to endorse him. Plenty of conscionable conservatives did just that, or held their nose and voted for the smart lady in the pantsuit. But not the MAGATS. And that is how ended up where we are.
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  #117  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:19 AM
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Even the Republicans must have noticed the SNL skit that passed for a press conference yesterday. The folks in front of the cameras had a few very large charts but were unable to explain them beyond their introductory statements. The funny part was when Trump stepped in to 'clarify' everything and really screwed it up.

As asahi pointed out above, we have pegged the needle on criticism. But the Republicans are pegging the needle with their public display of incompetence. Last week Cuomo's model predicted that the total cases would be 180,000 on the 31st of March. That was the exact number. The crux of the issue yesterday was that the models are not predictive. But, events will match the models if we do not take appropriate action. Indeed events are now tracking the models. In yesterday's presser the press was asking 'what action is needed to avoid the virus tracking the model'. None of the clowns on camera could even frame the question let alone present an answer.

The reason we have a federal government is to allocate communal resources to meet the common needs of the nation. It is not to satisfy the goals of some political philosophy. We are in serious trouble due to a complete lack of leadership.

So, back to the OP - can one or more right wingers please tell me how they defend the floundering clowns I watched on TV yesterday!

Oh yeah - if the curve does not flatten, next Wednesday the number will be 2.5 million.

Last edited by Crane; 04-01-2020 at 10:23 AM.
  #118  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:20 AM
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Recent results include the following:

NPR Reports.

Vox Reports: Hate crime up after Trump rallies.

Brookings had this to say:



So while we're not at 2009 levels, you cannot not say that hate crime has not increased during the Trump presidency.
The study showing a correlation between hate crimes and Trump rallies was replicated and they found that the correlation was even stronger between Clinton rallies and hate crimes. The likely explanation is that political rallies are held in counties with lots of people in them and counties with higher populations have higher total crimes.
  #119  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:24 AM
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Obama was divisive but presidents have very little impact on specific types of crime.
Those are the latest statistics I could find.

The FBI statistics are based on reporting by law enforcement while the Bureau of Justice statistics are based on survey data. In most types of crime that distinction does not matter much. However in measuring hate crimes it matters a great deal.
Historically most jurisdictions did not have a separate category for hate crimes until recently. As a result, those jurisdictions did not report them to the FBI. Thus the FBI's cumulative numbers do not represent the whole country but only those who jurisdictions who collected the statistics and reported them. Since more jurisdictions have started reporting the cumulative totals have grown which tells us nothing about rates.
The BJS survey data has remained consistent and does not rely on jurisdictions keeping track. They are the only statistics that can be used to track rates and trends.
The article said that those crimes are surging in the big cities, and especially againt Jews and Hispanics. Do you think big cities are among those jurisdictions that didn't report previously?

Obviously, Trump has been targeting Hispanics in his attacks on immigrants, and even on Hispanic judges. He and his administration have also re-tweeted and referenced white-supremacist materials, which may explain the increasing attacks on Jewish people.

Whatever. This is off-topic for this thread, as is all the Republican and Democratic bashing going on. This thread is specifically about people who support Trump, not the Republicans. Bill Kristol, a staunch conservative, can't stand Trump. Joe Walsh, not the guitar player, constantly bashes Trump and is working hard against his election. Peter Wehner, Bret Stephens, David Brooks -- all prominent conservatives who can't stand the guy. You can be a Republican and a conservative and love all the new judges and lower taxes and smaller government and lower regulations, and still say that Trump has been a giant stain on the office of the presidency.
  #120  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:31 AM
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Obama was divisive but presidents have very little impact on specific types of crime.
It's been a long time since we had a president who praised white supremacists as "good people", who spent years spreading an evidence-free and racist conspiracy theory, and whose administration advocated deliberately harming migrant children and families for deterrent purposes, so this one may actually have more impact on hate crimes than most.
  #121  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:32 AM
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The article said that those crimes are surging in the big cities, and especially againt Jews and Hispanics. Do you think big cities are among those jurisdictions that didn't report previously?

Obviously, Trump has been targeting Hispanics in his attacks on immigrants, and even on Hispanic judges. He and his administration have also re-tweeted and referenced white-supremacist materials, which may explain the increasing attacks on Jewish people.

Whatever. This is off-topic for this thread, as is all the Republican and Democratic bashing going on. This thread is specifically about people who support Trump, not the Republicans. Bill Kristol, a staunch conservative, can't stand Trump. Joe Walsh, not the guitar player, constantly bashes Trump and is working hard against his election. Peter Wehner, Bret Stephens, David Brooks -- all prominent conservatives who can't stand the guy. You can be a Republican and a conservative and love all the new judges and lower taxes and smaller government and lower regulations, and still say that Trump has been a giant stain on the office of the presidency.
Yes, you can up until you have only one option to vote for.
  #122  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:32 AM
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....
As asahi pointed out above, we have pegged the needle on criticism. ...
I don't understand this criticism of people who don't support Trump. Things he did in his first year were horrific and unprecedented for a US President, or at least a modern one. The Mueller report laid out how terrible he was as a candidate and President. He was doing things that would have unraveled another president on a regular basis. Just because he's gotten worse, more incompetent, coarser, more petulant, doesn't mean that the earlier criticism was wrong -- it was as bad as it got, from, say, President Wilson forward, until it got worse again.

If I'm being tortured and someone asks me how bad is the pain, and I give it a ten because I can't imagine any worse pain, and then the torturers come up with something even worse, my previous ten was still valid -- I couldn't imagine worse pain.

Similarly, I thought his obvious graft, lies, and campaign violations were really awful, worse than anything before. I didn't expect the level of incompetence at the border that would have him separating parents from children and then losing track of the children! I thought that was the worst, but then I didn't expect him to be treasonously fishing for dirt on his political opponents! I thought that was the worst, but then I didn't expect him to respond so badly to the current crisis!
  #123  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:35 AM
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Good point - Trump keeps moving the peg!
  #124  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:36 AM
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Yes, you can up until you have only one option to vote for.
"I voted for Trump because I really like his policies. However, I can't defend his lying, womanizing, self-enrichment at the taxpayer's expense, incompetence, and so on. However, I would vote for him again over Biden, because, policy-wise, he's a straight-up Republican. His debasement of the presidency is a price I'm willing to pay for looser regulations, (or whatever)."

Now, that's not what the OP is looking for -- he's looking for someone to say they support Trump the man, even though he lies, etc.

ETA: None of those prominent conservatives are planning on voting for Trump. Stephens was iffy when it looked like the nominee might be Sanders, but he's not iffy anymore.

Last edited by RitterSport; 04-01-2020 at 10:37 AM.
  #125  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:36 AM
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I've said it before: Trump delivers the goods. He's loading the bench with conservatives who will swing the gavel for decades. He's cutting taxes for the billionaire class that controls America. He race baits for the racists. He checks all the boxes. Even those who don't like his race baiting and know damn well he's not Christian love the fact that he goes out of his way to appeal to Christians, and that's the bottom line. Republicans don't necessarily care if you're really a Republican; just deliver the goods at the end of the day, and all is well.

....
And trump delivers the goods because he (with the help and support of Moscow Mitch) has got the Republican party by the balls. In order to deliver the goods, the president has to control the party. The Republican party belongs to trump now. (Although I suspect that if Mitch wanted to, he could throw a bucket of water on trump and watch him sizzle and melt into the floorboards in about 30 seconds.)

NO ONE controls the Democratic party. They can't get together on anything. The fact that Bernie is still in the race illustrates this. The fact that Obama lost his majority after he was reelected illustrates this. Even if (when) Biden gets elected, and even if he has a majority in both houses of Congress, he won't be able to deliver the goods like trump can because the way Congress works has changed. Cooperation across the aisle is a distant memory. Trump represents the culmination of the breakdown of our way of government. Can anyone restore it? I don't think so. It will have to be rebuilt, but I can't picture what that will look like.
  #126  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:38 AM
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I know people who say it's abortion. There is no other issue.
  #127  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:54 AM
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Okay, I declare that I don't support racist policies. Is that sufficient non-support for you? What else would you like me to do?

I feel like the answer you're all looking for is "Vote for a Democrat". Here it is: racism at the level Trump has expressed it, is not sufficient for me to ignore all my other preferences and automatically vote for the Democrat.
So, while yes a dog turd might have found its way into the pot of Chili con Carne, it was only a small one and the pot still contains lots of lovely ground beef which is sorely lacking in the turd free pot of vegetarian chili so I see no reason to switch.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 04-01-2020 at 10:56 AM.
  #128  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:56 AM
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You are full of shit.
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  #129  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:09 AM
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This is a Warning to refrain from expressing an disagreement with another poster as "You are full of shit."

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Understood.

Apologies Shodan; it's not that I don't respect you, I do and have for years, its just that you are so often wrong.

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  #130  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:12 AM
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"I voted for Trump because I really like his policies. However, I can't defend his lying, womanizing, self-enrichment at the taxpayer's expense, incompetence, and so on. However, I would vote for him again over Biden, because, policy-wise, he's a straight-up Republican. His debasement of the presidency is a price I'm willing to pay for looser regulations, (or whatever)."

Now, that's not what the OP is looking for -- he's looking for someone to say they support Trump the man, even though he lies, etc.

ETA: None of those prominent conservatives are planning on voting for Trump. Stephens was iffy when it looked like the nominee might be Sanders, but he's not iffy anymore.
If he has been around these boards for very long, he should know that he will be waiting a long long time for someone to come defend Trump's, the person.
  #131  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:16 AM
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And trump delivers the goods because he (with the help and support of Moscow Mitch) has got the Republican party by the balls. In order to deliver the goods, the president has to control the party. The Republican party belongs to trump now. (Although I suspect that if Mitch wanted to, he could throw a bucket of water on trump and watch him sizzle and melt into the floorboards in about 30 seconds.)

NO ONE controls the Democratic party. They can't get together on anything. The fact that Bernie is still in the race illustrates this. The fact that Obama lost his majority after he was reelected illustrates this. Even if (when) Biden gets elected, and even if he has a majority in both houses of Congress, he won't be able to deliver the goods like trump can because the way Congress works has changed. Cooperation across the aisle is a distant memory. Trump represents the culmination of the breakdown of our way of government. Can anyone restore it? I don't think so. It will have to be rebuilt, but I can't picture what that will look like.
Start rebuilding by figuring out a way to remove all the monetary benefits you get from being a politician (of any rank)
I thought for a while that term limits would limit the power accumulation that you garner over lengthy terms but I don't think it goes near far enough. We ought to treat politicians like we treat our teachers. The pay is shit, and so is the support you're likely to receive. But hey, you have summers off!
  #132  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:38 AM
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The study showing a correlation between hate crimes and Trump rallies was replicated and they found that the correlation was even stronger between Clinton rallies and hate crimes. The likely explanation is that political rallies are held in counties with lots of people in them and counties with higher populations have higher total crimes.

I'll try to respond if you provide a correction to your intended link.
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  #133  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:35 PM
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When I was playing catch up at San Jose State, there was a fellow student in a similar situation to mine. He was also married with 4 kids and had a job. But, he and his wife were school teachers, living at a subsistence level by choice. During the summer the whole family stayed in itinerant worker camps and picked fruit. He and his wife felt it was the best education experience for the children - work, in a diverse environment, that contributed to the family income. They were all studious, interesting people.

Perhaps we could get one of them to be President.
  #134  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:40 PM
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Trump supporters are Republicans, and they agree with the Republican platform. I just took a look at the highlights. https://www.gop.com/principles-for-american-renewal I don't want to turn this thread into an evaluation of Republican policy, but there's nothing imaginary or false there, whether or not you disagree with them.
You must be joking. Those aren't policies, they are vague aspirational goals. Delving into most of them reveals the false premises they are reacting to.

For example, "We need an immigration system that secures our borders, upholds the law, and boosts our economy."

Nobody disagrees with this. But if you ask them what this aspirational platitude means in action, they will tell you it involves building walls and putting people in cages, and if you ask them why we need to do that, that's when they repeat ideas that are demonstrably untrue, and events that either did not happen, or are statistically not representative of reality.

Another example: "We need to pass a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution, make government more efficient, and leave the next generation with opportunity, not debt."

This is from the political party that increases debt every time they're in office to pass tax cuts that enrich the wealthiest Americans. Republicans claim to be a party of fiscal responsibility, and this has been a transparent lie since at least the Reagan administration.

Republicans believe and/or speak fiction. That's how they rationalize support of Trump. There's no other way to rationalize support of Trump.
  #135  
Old 04-01-2020, 01:49 PM
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I know people who say it's abortion. There is no other issue.
Abortion itself isn't a simple issue. It's about control and power, and imposing one's will on others. People who subscribe to religious fundamentalism don't just want to restrict abortion. They fundamentally believe that they have the ultimate worldview and that others would be better off if the world would be seeing it their way.

We fundamentally fail to appreciate an important truth when it comes to abortion: people who obsess with outlawing abortion aren't just fixated with controlling people's reproductive health; you'll find that they enjoy controlling other people in other ways, too. They just get bent when government tries to control their controlling behavior.
  #136  
Old 04-01-2020, 01:59 PM
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For example, "We need an immigration system that secures our borders, upholds the law, and boosts our economy."

Nobody disagrees with this. But if you ask them what this aspirational platitude means in action, they will tell you it involves building walls and putting people in cages, and if you ask them why we need to do that, that's when they repeat ideas that are demonstrably untrue, and events that either did not happen, or are statistically not representative of reality.
In this case, the ends justify the means - doesn't matter how it gets done. Trump is preserving their America. Immigration is an existential threat and from their point of view, Trump is justified putting people in cages if that scares visibly foreign (and visibly poor) folk from coming into the country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Another example: "We need to pass a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution, make government more efficient, and leave the next generation with opportunity, not debt."

This is from the political party that increases debt every time they're in office to pass tax cuts that enrich the wealthiest Americans. Republicans claim to be a party of fiscal responsibility, and this has been a transparent lie since at least the Reagan administration.
They'll tell you that stimulus is okay if it means bailing out the chosen ones: big business. If it involves paying for the losers in the game of social Darwinism, OTOH...not so much. That gives you a peek into the Republican psyche: they value power over humanity.

They mental gymnastics that enable them to justify government bailouts would impress Simone Biles. But the short of it is that they're powerful, so they're naturally first in the lunch line. Power is a virtue. That's how they clawed their way up the food chain, and they'll keep clawing until people rise up and restore the balance of power in some meaningful way.
  #137  
Old 04-01-2020, 04:58 PM
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I'll try to respond if you provide a correction to your intended link.

I assume that this was what he intended to link to.

It is certainly possible that there are other variables that correlate with the presence of absence of a rallies regardless of party and also correlates with an increase in hate crime. If the creators of the original study didn't adjust for population density, then that is a serious flaw in the study. Of course it also could be that Clinton and Trump both tended to hold rallies in swing states that were being blanketed with Trump messaging. But for now I'd declare both results as suspect.

Of course just because a study was done poorly doesn't mean the conclusion in wrong. Sometimes statistics can get in the way of common sense. The last three times I hit my head with a hammer I got a headache, but since its only a sample size of three and doesn't take into account what I ate that day, I can't actually conclude that hitting myself with a hammer caused the headaches.
  #138  
Old 04-01-2020, 05:27 PM
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Obama was divisive but presidents have very little impact on specific types of crime.
Those are the latest statistics I could find.

The FBI statistics are based on reporting by law enforcement while the Bureau of Justice statistics are based on survey data. In most types of crime that distinction does not matter much. However in measuring hate crimes it matters a great deal.
Historically most jurisdictions did not have a separate category for hate crimes until recently. As a result, those jurisdictions did not report them to the FBI. Thus the FBI's cumulative numbers do not represent the whole country but only those who jurisdictions who collected the statistics and reported them. Since more jurisdictions have started reporting the cumulative totals have grown which tells us nothing about rates.
The BJS survey data has remained consistent and does not rely on jurisdictions keeping track. They are the only statistics that can be used to track rates and trends.
Excuse me but can you provide specific examples of how President Obama was "divisive"? Because I can't think of even ONE way that he was "divisive" except for "he was a dark-skinned person elected President when it's obvious that there are still a LOT of people (and I use the term "people" loosely in reference to them) in this country who simply could not (and still cannot) cope with a non-'white' person being elected president in this country." Got anything more persuasive than that? {I'm betting you DON'T!}
  #139  
Old 04-01-2020, 05:31 PM
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Of course it's not a deal breaker for him (if he's white). If he saves money on taxes and small business regulation gutting, if he bans abortion, it's all good - Trump delivers the groceries to the front door. If you're an Asian, Hispanic, or Black rich guy, then you need to think about whether the goods outweigh the race baiting.
Precisely. As has been the case with so many Republican presidents of late, he's nothing more than (as my wife puts it) an "empty suit" who does exactly what you posted: he allows the Republican Party to get things done while he's in power that they know damn well would NEVER get done if a Democrat were in the White House. Simple as that.
  #140  
Old 04-01-2020, 05:43 PM
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He had done neither. Is there a real answer?
No, but here's a question for you: "Where are you getting your information from?" 'cause from your viewpoint on things it sure doesn't sound to me like it's a reliable and authentic news source, whatever it is.
  #141  
Old 04-01-2020, 09:39 PM
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I was thinking more about this thread today, and about conversations I've had with my parents over Thanksgiving and Christmas, etc.

They are smart and caring people, basically lifelong Republicans, although they thought the Iraq war was a disaster and that Bush was the worst president of the modern era. Fairly sure my dad voted for Obama in 2008.

Anyway - they are pretty much what you're looking for here, rational supporters of Trump "the man." And the main reason they support him, and that they wouldn't agree with many of the criticisms expressed in this thread, is that they are working with an entirely different set of facts than you are.

They mostly watch Fox News, and maybe a few other sources, but they don't spend a ton of time seeking out information on politics, and aren't active on social media. By and large, Fox simply doesn't report all the negative stories that tend to rile up the CNN / MSNBC / Twitter / New York Times audience. If Trump says something stupid or controversial at a press conference, CNN might spend the entire evening talking about it, and bringing on experts to wring their hands over what this means for the country, etc. - and Fox will just ignore it. Meanwhile, Fox may run a story about how Trump did something good, and CNN will ignore it, or add some negative spin ("But experts say this is not sustainable...")

These aren't lies - they're just a different sampling of the truth, that overlooks or doesn't emphasize many of the harmful consequences of what Trump is doing.

I suspect that, if you somehow got my parents to watch CNN for a month instead of Fox, they'd be as horrified as you are.
  #142  
Old 04-02-2020, 02:02 AM
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I'm glad we finally have a thread where Trump supporters are given a respectful hearing. I would ask the Republicans kind enough to explain their reasons to focus on competence.

Yes, yes, we get that you like to give aliens strong incentives not to enter the country illegally; yes, we get that you want judges who'll repeal Roe v Wade, repeal Voting Rights, and repeal pro-Democratic Party laws like the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002. Yes, we get that whites are the victims of huge bigotry in a country where blacks and Allah worshippers are handed your money and your jobs. Yes, we get that tax cuts for rich corporations will help your 401Ks; and yes, we certainly understand that you want your Guns, guns, guns. But what about basic competence? Does that even matter anymore?

Trump stripped the CDC, cutting its budget dramatically every year, and disbanding its pandemic response team. Good? He's alienated our important allies in Europe while cuddling with dictators, even Putin. Good? His closest advisor is the nitwit Kushner. Good? He's disbanded environmental protection at a ferocious rate; I thought conservatives wanted to conserve the environment. No? Due to rampant firings and incompetent leadership, the institutional memories of State Dept., Dept of Energy will take at least a decade to recover. Good?

He sends Florida triple what it requests for tests and ventilators while denying aid to Michigan because their Governor is not "appreciative." Are you proud of this President? Is he competent? Do you think it's important to have a President who is competent?

Yes, I'm addressing YOU — the one who voted a straight GOP ticket except for Gary Johnson in the top slot because you couldn't quite get yourself to vote for the Nincompoop, though you approve of his policies. And I'm addressing YOU — the one who was "forced" to vote Trump because the alternative was to vote for the Wicked Witch of Benghazi. You don't have to wear a MAGA hat and have a sub-90 IQ to be called a "Trump supporter."

I'd like Republicans to tell us why they're so proud of this sheer incompetence. (Please list the news sources you use; and post some links to confirm you're not in a Fox bubble and are even aware of the incompetence.)
  #143  
Old 04-02-2020, 08:20 AM
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Who better to hear it from than the man himself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Trump, 2014
It's gonna be hard in certain areas. Now, you know what solves it, when the economy crashes, when the country goes to total hell and everything is a disaster, then you’ll have riots to go back to where we used to be when we were great.
Here's a link to excerpt and a link to the Fox interview. The context of the quote was Fox hosts complaining about their difficult task in competing with social programs on the merits.

You know why Republicans project that sentiment onto Democrats, accusing them of being "ghoulishly gleeful" about the current situation? It's because that violent collapse is what every single Republican hoped for when Obama was president. We have Trump on tape calling for economic collapse leading to a violent cultural revolution, and Republicans still voted for him. Cultural revolution is the only real thing they believe in.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 04-02-2020 at 08:22 AM.
  #144  
Old 04-02-2020, 08:24 AM
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I was thinking more about this thread today, and about conversations I've had with my parents over Thanksgiving and Christmas, etc.

They are smart and caring people, basically lifelong Republicans, although they thought the Iraq war was a disaster and that Bush was the worst president of the modern era. Fairly sure my dad voted for Obama in 2008.

Anyway - they are pretty much what you're looking for here, rational supporters of Trump "the man." And the main reason they support him, and that they wouldn't agree with many of the criticisms expressed in this thread, is that they are working with an entirely different set of facts than you are.

They mostly watch Fox News, and maybe a few other sources, but they don't spend a ton of time seeking out information on politics, and aren't active on social media. By and large, Fox simply doesn't report all the negative stories that tend to rile up the CNN / MSNBC / Twitter / New York Times audience. If Trump says something stupid or controversial at a press conference, CNN might spend the entire evening talking about it, and bringing on experts to wring their hands over what this means for the country, etc. - and Fox will just ignore it. Meanwhile, Fox may run a story about how Trump did something good, and CNN will ignore it, or add some negative spin ("But experts say this is not sustainable...")

These aren't lies - they're just a different sampling of the truth, that overlooks or doesn't emphasize many of the harmful consequences of what Trump is doing.

I suspect that, if you somehow got my parents to watch CNN for a month instead of Fox, they'd be as horrified as you are.
But isn't that what many of us have been saying for years; That Trump supporters have surrendered reality for delusion. I think most of us can agree that believing "alternative facts" is simply a delusional way to excuse the acceptance of lies. And if your parents could have their views changed simply by being exposed to factual information outside of the Fox News event horizon, then how is that substantively different from being deprogrammed after having been indoctrinated cult members?
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  #145  
Old 04-02-2020, 08:26 AM
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Cultural revolution is the only real thing they believe in.
You spelled "ethnic cleansing" wrong.
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  #146  
Old 04-02-2020, 08:39 AM
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Wrenching Spanners said "Getting the outright lies out of the way first, of course Trump had a lot of bombast, some of it untruthful." This is certainly minimizing Trump's inability to tell the truth about almost anything. Lying about crowd sizes? No big deal. Muslim's dancing in the streets? Pass. "I'll release my taxes"? Bombast. "We have the virus under control"? No biggie. "I knew this was a pandemic before anyone called it a pandemic"? Just Trump being Trump. Regardless of his or Republican policies on anything, it is beyond my comprehension how anyone can support such a pathological liar. One cannot believe a single word he says. My greatest fear is that he gets into another war based on complete bullshit. (Although his lying and ineptitude concerning the current crisis may cost more lives than all of our mid-East misadventures combined, he's already calling himself and his polices the best).

So please, please explain to me how you can ignore all his lies. I mean "bombast".
  #147  
Old 04-02-2020, 09:27 AM
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Abortion itself isn't a simple issue. It's about control and power, and imposing one's will on others.
Many, many laws are about imposing will on others and controlling people. There is nothing at all special about that. Abortion opponents, literally think abortionists are murdering babies. They don't care about the legal definition or murder or whether you think its a baby or not. You may not see it that way, and that's fine, but they do, and nothing you say is going to change that. Many, many laws are in place to prevent one from doing harm to others, e.g. "control" through "power".

To them, virtually NOTHING Trump could do is more evil than murdering babies, not even kids in cages, and that's why some simple lip service about abortion will get them to vote R every time. No democrat is going to be openly pro-life, other than maybe to say they "personally" wouldn't have an abortion. To take a cynical view of it, Republican politicians probably don't want to abolish Roe v Wade, because if that ever happened they might lose their grip on these single issue voters.
  #148  
Old 04-02-2020, 09:30 AM
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I think Absolute is on to something. Many Trump supporters like competence as much as anyone else. They aren't supporting him because they like incompetence, they support him because Fox News, etc. portray him as being highly competent.

  • Up until a few months ago, Fox News was continuously emphasizing the stock market's record highs and economy's red-hot performance. Hardly a week went by without them commenting on how the Dow Jones or Nasdaq had hit yet another high. That sort of news could lure even moderates/fence-sitters into becoming pro-Trump when hammered long enough.
  • News such as Trump ordering the raid to kill al-Baghdadi, leader of ISIS (never mind that Trump himself nearly gave out too much secret intel in his comments later on), which came across as Trump's "Obama kills bin Laden" moment;
  • Trump filling in court vacancies at a record clip, eclipsing both Bush and Obama;
  • Dozens, if not hundreds, of news stories which could be described as "Trump owns the libs" or "the Deep State conspires against Trump, but fails," or "Trump does something to show how great and powerful America is;" or some story of illegal immigrants committing murder in America, etc.


Someone who already had some pro-Trump leaning to begin with could watch this steady diet of pro-Trump news and genuinely believe he is a strong, competent leader.
  #149  
Old 04-02-2020, 09:40 AM
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It should not need reminding that Republicans had a choice of no less than 16 other actual Republicans in the field of 2016 GOP candidates. Many of whom were very qualified for government work and had real Republican/Conservative creds.

But did the Republican voters pick one of them? Did they fuck.
It's precisely because there were so many other Republicans running that Trump soared to the lead, combined with winner-take-all format. They cannibalized their own traditional-establishment vote.


Quote:
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To take a cynical view of it, Republican politicians probably don't want to abolish Roe v Wade, because if that ever happened they might lose their grip on these single issue voters.
At the risk of derailing the thread, this most likely wouldn't pose a problem because overturning Roe would mean the fight against abortion was/is still far from over. Abortion would still remain fully legal in many states. It just wouldn't be legal in all 50 states. Pro-lifers would just continue their war on a state-by-state basis, likely never succeeding in the deep blue states.
  #150  
Old 04-02-2020, 09:42 AM
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I think Absolute is on to something. Many Trump supporters like competence as much as anyone else. They aren't supporting him because they like incompetence, they support him because Fox News, etc. portray him as being highly competent.

  • Up until a few months ago, Fox News was continuously emphasizing the stock market's record highs and economy's red-hot performance. Hardly a week went by without them commenting on how the Dow Jones or Nasdaq had hit yet another high. That sort of news could lure even moderates/fence-sitters into becoming pro-Trump when hammered long enough.
  • News such as Trump ordering the raid to kill al-Baghdadi, leader of ISIS (never mind that Trump himself nearly gave out too much secret intel in his comments later on), which came across as Trump's "Obama kills bin Laden" moment;
  • Trump filling in court vacancies at a record clip, eclipsing both Bush and Obama;
  • Dozens, if not hundreds, of news stories which could be described as "Trump owns the libs" or "the Deep State conspires against Trump, but fails," or "Trump does something to show how great and powerful America is;" or some story of illegal immigrants committing murder in America, etc.


Someone who already had some pro-Trump leaning to begin with could watch this steady diet of pro-Trump news and genuinely believe he is a strong, competent leader.
I think your latter bullet gets closest to the truth. Trump supporters define competence differently than other people. They believe the government cannot possibly do anything right and wastes every dollar it gets, therefore destroying the government is seen as competent governance. They also believe they are the only true Americans, therefore a core competency is oppressing or deporting everyone who isn't like them.
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