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  #151  
Old 04-02-2020, 10:39 AM
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Another excellent article on our glorious leader. You can get the gist of it by the title in the link. In other words, he is too stupid to realize that he is stupid - a dangerous trait for a leader in time of crisis.

https://www.salon.com/2020/04/02/our...illing-people/
  #152  
Old 04-02-2020, 10:52 AM
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I'll try to respond if you provide a correction to your intended link.
https://reason.com/2019/09/06/no-tru...y-226-percent/
  #153  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:07 AM
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The article said that those crimes are surging in the big cities, and especially againt Jews and Hispanics. Do you think big cities are among those jurisdictions that didn't report previously?

Obviously, Trump has been targeting Hispanics in his attacks on immigrants, and even on Hispanic judges. He and his administration have also re-tweeted and referenced white-supremacist materials, which may explain the increasing attacks on Jewish people.

Whatever. This is off-topic for this thread, as is all the Republican and Democratic bashing going on. This thread is specifically about people who support Trump, not the Republicans. Bill Kristol, a staunch conservative, can't stand Trump. Joe Walsh, not the guitar player, constantly bashes Trump and is working hard against his election. Peter Wehner, Bret Stephens, David Brooks -- all prominent conservatives who can't stand the guy. You can be a Republican and a conservative and love all the new judges and lower taxes and smaller government and lower regulations, and still say that Trump has been a giant stain on the office of the presidency.
If it was Trump that was causing the increase why would it be in big cities where his support is the lowest? In NYC where antisemetic attacks are on the rise most of the perpetrators are young black men. That is unlikely to be Trumps fault.
  #154  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:15 AM
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It's precisely because there were so many other Republicans running that Trump soared to the lead, combined with winner-take-all format. They cannibalized their own traditional-establishment vote.
I don't think this is reflective of what happened. Right wingers watched Trump come down on the escalator and lost their collective minds because here was a guy speaking directly to their core being. The other GOP candidates were clearly too short, too polished, not loudmouthed enough, and had ugly wives.
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  #155  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:19 AM
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These aren't lies - they're just a different sampling of the truth, that overlooks or doesn't emphasize many of the harmful consequences of what Trump is doing.
But whether or not whether or not your parents get a filtered version of the consequences of his actions, they do get a good representation from Fox of the message the president is trying to convey at the time. Going back the the link presented by the OP, how do they react to the fact that way he obviously contradicts himself. Do they simply forget that he ever said that the virus would be no problem to the US, when he later claims that he always knew it was a pandemic before anyone else did? Do they accept both statements as true despite the fact that they contradict each other? Or do they acknowledge that he is lying but don't think it matters?

Last edited by Buck Godot; 04-02-2020 at 11:20 AM.
  #156  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:26 AM
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If it was Trump that was causing the increase why would it be in big cities where his support is the lowest? In NYC where antisemetic attacks are on the rise most of the perpetrators are young black men. That is unlikely to be Trumps fault.
Because there are very few Jews in buttfuck Mississippi. Even the dumbest racist can figure where to find them. And when you send a message that it's okay to be openly racist, you don't get to pre-qualify which violent asshole you are going to trigger to do something heinous. And arguably, if you're trying to start something, it's not in your interest to be picky. If a black guy stabs a bunch of jews in New York, you've accomplished multiple goals: 1) Jews attacked, 2) Blacks viewed as violent criminals, 3) Redneck White Supremacists PROFIT!
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  #157  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:39 AM
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Excuse me but can you provide specific examples of how President Obama was "divisive"? Because I can't think of even ONE way that he was "divisive" except for "he was a dark-skinned person elected President when it's obvious that there are still a LOT of people (and I use the term "people" loosely in reference to them) in this country who simply could not (and still cannot) cope with a non-'white' person being elected president in this country." Got anything more persuasive than that? {I'm betting you DON'T!}
He said Republicans were enemies of Hispanics.

Threatening violence to opponents "“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”"

Describing opponents as "bitter people clinging to guns and religions"

Is that enough?, {What do I win}
  #158  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:43 AM
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Because there are very few Jews in buttfuck Mississippi. Even the dumbest racist can figure where to find them. And when you send a message that it's okay to be openly racist, you don't get to pre-qualify which violent asshole you are going to trigger to do something heinous. And arguably, if you're trying to start something, it's not in your interest to be picky. If a black guy stabs a bunch of jews in New York, you've accomplished multiple goals: 1) Jews attacked, 2) Blacks viewed as violent criminals, 3) Redneck White Supremacists PROFIT!
Trump has never said it is okay to be openly racist.
By this logic every President is responsible for every act of violence in a country.
  #159  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:45 AM
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Trump has never said it is okay to be openly racist.
He did praise white supremacists as "good people", and he did spend several years spreading a racist, evidence-free conspiracy theory. Among many other things, of course.

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He said Republicans were enemies of Hispanics.

Threatening violence to opponents "“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”"

Describing opponents as "bitter people clinging to guns and religions"

Is that enough?, {What do I win}
Ahh, the halcyon days of 2008 when such things were considered "divisive"! What children we were!
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:54 AM
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To answer the OP again, everything can be boiled down into a nutshell: When you're angry or desperate, you're not exactly going to focus on nuance or subtlety. Anger and desperation make those things fly out the window.

When you're trailing by three touchdowns in the fourth quarter of a Super Bowl, you're desperate for anything that works. You aren't going to say, "Well, this quarterback (Ben Roethlisberger) gives us the best chance to win, but he has a history of threatening women or deliberately defrauding people of money." That isn't the time or place for that.
  #161  
Old 04-02-2020, 12:02 PM
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Trump has never said it is okay to be openly racist.
Racists are too cowardly to admit that they're racist. David Duke denies that he's racist.
  #162  
Old 04-02-2020, 12:02 PM
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To answer the OP again, everything can be boiled down into a nutshell: When you're angry or desperate, you're not exactly going to focus on nuance or subtlety. Anger and desperation make those things fly out the window.

When you're trailing by three touchdowns in the fourth quarter of a Super Bowl, you're desperate for anything that works. You aren't going to say, "Well, this quarterback (Ben Roethlisberger) gives us the best chance to win, but he has a history of threatening women or deliberately defrauding people of money." That isn't the time or place for that.
So I take this to mean that we are no longer trying to provide rational explanations for their turning a blind eye to Trump's lies and mean rhetoric, Trumps nod to bigotry, or their willful ignorance. We're left with trying to excuse it because they are "angry and desperate".
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Old 04-02-2020, 12:08 PM
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So I take this to mean that we are no longer trying to provide rational explanations for their turning a blind eye to Trump's lies and mean rhetoric, Trumps nod to bigotry, or their willful ignorance. We're left with trying to excuse it because they are "angry and desperate".
That is the rational explanation. They're angry and desperate, politically speaking, and that leads them to embrace and/or overlook someone like Trump.

To return to the football analogy, if you're losing big in the fourth quarter, you don't want a quarterback who only plays it safe and careful with five-yard checkdown passes. It's time for someone who lets bombs fly deep downfield with his arm. It's time for someone who scrambles for twenty yards with his own feet, someone who takes risks even if it means a higher chance of interceptions.

Whether Trump is any of those things matters less than that he was perceived by his voters as being those things.
  #164  
Old 04-02-2020, 02:09 PM
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That is the rational explanation. They're angry and desperate, politically speaking, and that leads them to embrace and/or overlook someone like Trump.
So the rational explanation is that they aren't acting rationally?

The more interesting question, to me, is why it takes 4 pages to state the obvious truth that their support is not rational, it is emotional and delusional.
  #165  
Old 04-02-2020, 05:17 PM
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He said Republicans were enemies of Hispanics.

Threatening violence to opponents "“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”"

Describing opponents as "bitter people clinging to guns and religions"

Is that enough?, {What do I win}
Apparently divisiveness is in the eye of the beholder. You get absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G for being a Donny Dimwit enabler.
  #166  
Old 04-02-2020, 05:18 PM
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Trump has never said it is okay to be openly racist.
By this logic every President is responsible for every act of violence in a country.
This "person" sounds suspiciously like "Hurricane Ditka."
  #167  
Old 04-02-2020, 05:25 PM
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He said Republicans were enemies of Hispanics.

Threatening violence to opponents "“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”"

Describing opponents as "bitter people clinging to guns and religions"

Is that enough?, {What do I win}
Those all sound like perfectly true statements, to me. I thought Donny Drumpf enablers were all about "truth"? No? Oh, then I guess all of you have been L-Y-I-N-G about that all along, haven't you?
  #168  
Old 04-02-2020, 05:42 PM
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Trump has never said it is okay to be openly racist.
By this logic every President is responsible for every act of violence in a country.
Please, for your own sake and the sake of whatever reputation you have - just stop. Outside of the right-wing bubble you should know what you come off like every single time you post. For your sake I'm hoping you quit posting anything but, frankly, I'm not holding my breath on THAT count.
  #169  
Old 04-02-2020, 06:34 PM
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The mistake of the OP is asking Conservative and/or Trump Supporter to RATIONALLY explain. Because it's about as rational as Yankees and Red Sox fans declaring for their team. They are likely fans depending on which metro area they grew up in. And they don't care about which team is objectively "better" based on stats and record and whatnot. They just want their team to win.

Conservatives will harp on Hillary Clinton's emails or Benghazi until the end of the earth as the most egregious abuse of power. But they will willfully overlook anything you bring up about Trump as exaggeration, taken out of context, "fake news", or "not as bad as Clinton's emails and Benghazi".

From what I can tell from my friends on either side of the political spectrum, there's a fundamental difference in thinking as well.

Conservatives seem to be look at things as "this is pro / against America", tend to support the legitimacy of authority like the police, big business or government (so long as it's Republican), and prefer to maintain the status quo.

Liberals tend to be "this is the morally correct thing to do', tend to question authority, and tend to favor disruption.


So the rationale of Republicans / Conservatives is "Trump is doing a great job because he is the President of America. Any mistakes or misteps he made earlier is due being distracted by Democrats trying to impeach him, Chinese lies, whatever.
  #170  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:05 PM
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Of course, if you don't cite anything specific, you're only going to get generalities. I encourage you to cite the 2 or 3 most serious examples. I'll respond in detail to them if you do, but I won't address something broad and vague.

Something else that would be helpful for balance is to seek examples of Obama's dishonesty. The view of most people, is that what is claimed as Trump's "lies" are mostly misrepresentations and libels by his political enemies, especially by the far left advocacy media (CNN, NY Times, MSNBC, LA Times, etc.). A recent, aggressively promoted example of this is the myth that Trump called the corona-virus a hoax, but I could easily cite hundreds of other such myths. In other cases, it's the press quibbling with Trump's wording. For instance, when Trump stated in 2015/2016 he had been "wiretapped," the press ridiculed him. When it came out that he had in fact been surveiled (probably illegally), the press dodged by quibbling about whether the word "wiretap" was appropriate. Finally, in cases where Trump has stated something that's not literally true, it's generally hyperbole, not actually malicious deceptions. On the other hand, Obama's lies were not only more numerous, but they had a qualitatively different character; they were genuinely malicious and destructive.

I am encouraged by your statement that "I am truly curious to understand." If that is the case, you will eventually understand. In my personal experience, I've never known anyone on the political left who had a genuine desire to understand the other side, who did not end up rejecting the left. However, it usually takes about 1 to 3 years for the whole process to unfold.

If you truly want to understand this, I suggest tuning in to the Mark Levin show for a while. Levin's website makes recordings of past shows available for free, so you can put the shows on in the background while you're doing something else. Levin, like me, is a Trump supporter who initially opposed Trump.
  #171  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:17 PM
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If it was Trump that was causing the increase why would it be in big cities where his support is the lowest? In NYC where antisemetic attacks are on the rise most of the perpetrators are young black men. That is unlikely to be Trumps fault.
One of the many reasons the "debate" about these sorts of things is so one-sided and boring to people like me. Are the people accusing Trump of anti-semitism really unaware that Trump's daughter was married in a traditional Jewish wedding? And that Trump has the most pro-Israel foreign policy of any recent president?

Of course, the whole argument vanishes into thin air as soon as you ask for facts.
  #172  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:33 PM
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One of the many reasons the "debate" about these sorts of things is so one-sided and boring to people like me. Are the people accusing Trump of anti-semitism really unaware that Trump's daughter was married in a traditional Jewish wedding? And that Trump has the most pro-Israel foreign policy of any recent president?

Of course, the whole argument vanishes into thin air as soon as you ask for facts.
Nixon had Kissinger in his cabinet and virtually saved Israel once. It did not prevent him from being a bigot.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/11/u...s/11nixon.html

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  #173  
Old 04-02-2020, 11:42 PM
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Liberals tend to be "this is the morally correct thing to do', tend to question authority, and tend to favor disruption.
I strongly disagree. The value system of "liberals" tends to exaggerate the importance of equality, which is at best an amoral value, but is arguably incompatible with morality. They also actively promote values which seem clearly immoral, such as government dependence, diversity and identity politics (a form of racism), and promote conflict generally along all demographic divisions. At the same time, they underrate values which are clearly morally necessary such as honesty, integrity, industriousness, even handedness, meritocracy, etc. Religious belief, reverence for enlightenment "classical liberalism," human dignity, and liberty, are all very strongly identified with political conservatism, as is a strong duty to charity (which has been shown in studies to be higher among conservatives), and service to country and community.

Most conservatives are very disturbed by the lack of a "moral compass" on the part of the left. For instance, all of the most murderous and genocidal political regimes/tyrants of the past century have been some form of socialism (Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism-Leninism, etc.), accounting for hundreds of millions of deaths and unfathomable ecoonomic destruction and misery. The political left seems extraordinarily callous about the magnitude of the crimes or their responsibility in them.

It is my personal view, that precisely because of moral insensitivity, the political left has been in retreat domestically, as well as globally, for decades, and has no credible future.

Again, this statement is very strongly at odds with most people's views, myself included.
  #174  
Old 04-03-2020, 03:22 AM
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You must be joking. Those aren't policies, they are vague aspirational goals. Delving into most of them reveals the false premises they are reacting to.

For example, "We need an immigration system that secures our borders, upholds the law, and boosts our economy."

Nobody disagrees with this. But if you ask them what this aspirational platitude means in action, they will tell you it involves building walls and putting people in cages, and if you ask them why we need to do that, that's when they repeat ideas that are demonstrably untrue, and events that either did not happen, or are statistically not representative of reality.

Another example: "We need to pass a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution, make government more efficient, and leave the next generation with opportunity, not debt."

This is from the political party that increases debt every time they're in office to pass tax cuts that enrich the wealthiest Americans. Republicans claim to be a party of fiscal responsibility, and this has been a transparent lie since at least the Reagan administration.

Republicans believe and/or speak fiction. That's how they rationalize support of Trump. There's no other way to rationalize support of Trump.
Where would you suggest I go to to get a rational, unbiased perspective on modern Republican goals and political philosophy? It's certainly not going to be the SDMB.
  #175  
Old 04-03-2020, 05:35 AM
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Where would you suggest I go to to get a rational, unbiased perspective on modern Republican goals and political philosophy? It's certainly not going to be the SDMB.
And this is my favorite trope, when the opposing side asks me to do the homework to support their position. Sorry buddy, my position is that they're bunch of angry lying crybabies with no rational or moral foundation. If you think that's wrong, then find an appropriate source. And don't even think about rolling the goalposts back to a never-Trumper rightie rag like National Review.
  #176  
Old 04-03-2020, 07:39 AM
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Those all sound like perfectly true statements, to me. I thought Donny Drumpf enablers were all about "truth"? No? Oh, then I guess all of you have been L-Y-I-N-G about that all along, haven't you?
That'll get you a warning for accusations of lying, racepug. You've been here long enough to know that's not allowed.

Please don't do it again.
  #177  
Old 04-03-2020, 08:09 AM
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And this is my favorite trope, when the opposing side asks me to do the homework to support their position. Sorry buddy, my position is that they're bunch of angry lying crybabies with no rational or moral foundation. If you think that's wrong, then find an appropriate source. And don't even think about rolling the goalposts back to a never-Trumper rightie rag like National Review.
Fine. Let's go back to your original statement.
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Trump supporters support him because they believe things that are imaginary and false, and they hold irrational grievances.
To examine what Republicans believe, I looked at an actual Republican source - they're own website. You've rejected that. Fair enough. The GOP website is certainly going to be biased and self-complimentary, although I personally think it's honest about Republican political beliefs. So instead of using the source that you've rejected, I asked for a better, neutral source. You're now declining to provide one, because you don't want to do my homework, while doubling down that "they're bunch of angry lying crybabies with no rational or moral foundation." What foundation are you actually looking at? What is your non-biased source for what Republicans actually think? I'm guessing your source is a combination of your dislike of Trump, the fact the he won, the actions he's taken that you disagree with, and your own biases. Your packaging all of those up into a bundle of malevolence and then attributing that bundle of malevolence you've created as being core Republican beliefs. Sorry buddy, my position is that that's irrational thinking.

Last edited by Wrenching Spanners; 04-03-2020 at 08:10 AM.
  #178  
Old 04-03-2020, 08:51 AM
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He said Republicans were enemies of Hispanics.

Threatening violence to opponents "“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”"

Describing opponents as "bitter people clinging to guns and religions"

Is that enough?, {What do I win}
Let's see-
1- I think it's fair to say that Republicans are indeed the enemy of Hispanics. You've got a guy in the White House who on the day he announced his run talked about rapists and drug dealers and criminals coming over for Mexico, then campaigned on building a wall to keep brown people out.

2- Obama was obviously not talking about physical violence, it was in fighting rhetoric and lies from the other side with truth.

3- People do cling to their guns and religion. For some their guns are their religion. He put the truth in terms that are too harsh for some snowflakes.

You win a degree from T***p University.
  #179  
Old 04-03-2020, 09:58 AM
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I think Absolute is on to something. Many Trump supporters like competence as much as anyone else. They aren't supporting him because they like incompetence, they support him because Fox News, etc. portray him as being highly competent.

  • Up until a few months ago, Fox News was continuously emphasizing the stock market's record highs and economy's red-hot performance. Hardly a week went by without them commenting on how the Dow Jones or Nasdaq had hit yet another high. That sort of news could lure even moderates/fence-sitters into becoming pro-Trump when hammered long enough.
  • News such as Trump ordering the raid to kill al-Baghdadi, leader of ISIS (never mind that Trump himself nearly gave out too much secret intel in his comments later on), which came across as Trump's "Obama kills bin Laden" moment;
  • Trump filling in court vacancies at a record clip, eclipsing both Bush and Obama;
  • Dozens, if not hundreds, of news stories which could be described as "Trump owns the libs" or "the Deep State conspires against Trump, but fails," or "Trump does something to show how great and powerful America is;" or some story of illegal immigrants committing murder in America, etc.


Someone who already had some pro-Trump leaning to begin with could watch this steady diet of pro-Trump news and genuinely believe he is a strong, competent leader.
I would also add that a lot of Trump voters vote based on their feelings and their core attitudes. In my experience (and I'm pretty sure this could be supported by evidence, too), conservatives view the world in terms of their own instincts, their own life experiences. And nowhere is the contrast more on display than in their attitudes toward Obama and Trump. The facts show that Obama's actual policies better prepared this country for a pandemic, and Trump's have been abjectly worse in that regard. Obama has hired better, has retained staff longer; Trump has an entire administration full of "acting" directors and secretaries. And yet, Trump voters (mostly white) will likely say that Trump is more competent than Obama, that he's a businessman and yada yada yada, and though they'll never admit it, it's most likely rooted in their bias that businessmen are white males rather than white women and/or black men.

This is why I've said that it's time for rural white America to experience the worst of COVID. They need to get a reality check. My life experience tells me that there is no guarantee that personal experience will change attitudes - people could experience all of the worst of Trump's incompetence and still find ways to blame anyone but Trump. But my life experience tells me that experiencing the pain first-hand, directly is probably the only way they can change. And some will change their minds. Some will wake up and 'get it,' and that's what I hope. The rest of us who have taken the time to educate ourselves have been paying a heavy price for their ignorance for years, and we will continue to pay that price regardless of how depraved our Schadenfreude becomes. Whatever - it's time that they start paying that price now.
  #180  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:10 AM
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Racists are too cowardly to admit that they're racist. David Duke denies that he's racist.
But if Trump does not tell them that its okay to be racist, how will racists know that it is okay to go out and commit hate crimes? It is not like racism or hate crimes existed before Trump became president.
  #181  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:12 AM
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Let's see-
1- I think it's fair to say that Republicans are indeed the enemy of Hispanics. You've got a guy in the White House who on the day he announced his run talked about rapists and drug dealers and criminals coming over for Mexico, then campaigned on building a wall to keep brown people out.

2- Obama was obviously not talking about physical violence, it was in fighting rhetoric and lies from the other side with truth.

3- People do cling to their guns and religion. For some their guns are their religion. He put the truth in terms that are too harsh for some snowflakes.

You win a degree from T***p University.
You can dispute the truth of those statements, but what is obvious is that they are divisive which was my point.

I will put it next to my logic degree from the University of Science.
  #182  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:37 AM
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I strongly disagree.
I'm shocked.

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The value system of "liberals" tends to exaggerate the importance of equality, which is at best an amoral value, but is arguably incompatible with morality. They also actively promote values which seem clearly immoral, such as government dependence, diversity and identity politics (a form of racism), and promote conflict generally along all demographic divisions.
I'm sorry if equal rights for minorities and women is such an oppressive idea to you.

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At the same time, they underrate values which are clearly morally necessary such as honesty, integrity, industriousness, even handedness, meritocracy, etc. Religious belief, reverence for enlightenment "classical liberalism," human dignity, and liberty, are all very strongly identified with political conservatism, as is a strong duty to charity (which has been shown in studies to be higher among conservatives), and service to country and community.
Kindly point out which of these values are embraced and demonstrated by the current standard bearers of the Republican party: Donald J. Trump and the GOP leadership.

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Most conservatives are very disturbed by the lack of a "moral compass" on the part of the left. For instance, all of the most murderous and genocidal political regimes/tyrants of the past century have been some form of socialism (Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism-Leninism, etc.), accounting for hundreds of millions of deaths and unfathomable ecoonomic destruction and misery. The political left seems extraordinarily callous about the magnitude of the crimes or their responsibility in them.
Hey, your forgot to remind everyone about how Democrats used to be pro-slavery!

Nobody, except you and your pals, think Stalin, Mao and Lenin were anything but authoritarian despots. It's a trite and predictable argument that you're presenting in trying to twist facts. Not surprising. Not the least bit original. Try harder next time.


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It is my personal view, that precisely because of moral insensitivity, the political left has been in retreat domestically, as well as globally, for decades, and has no credible future.

Again, this statement is very strongly at odds with most people's views, myself included.
Your opinions are wrong.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 04-03-2020 at 10:38 AM.
  #183  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:41 AM
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But if Trump does not tell them that its okay to be racist, how will racists know that it is okay to go out and commit hate crimes? It is not like racism or hate crimes existed before Trump became president.
No, what are you talking about?...
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  #184  
Old 04-03-2020, 11:49 AM
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And that Trump has the most pro-Israel foreign policy of any recent president?
I wouldn't say Trump has a pro-Israel policy. He has pro-Bibi Netanyahu policy.
  #185  
Old 04-03-2020, 01:01 PM
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I wouldn't say Trump has a pro-Israel policy. He has pro-Bibi Netanyahu policy.
Do you think Benny Gantz or Avigdor Lieberman are opposed to any of the things Trump has done vis a vis Israel? They hate Netanyahu, but their politics (those that relate to what Trump does - not necessarily internal stuff, like drafting Haredim) aren't substantially different from his.
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  #186  
Old 04-03-2020, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by RMMM
Most conservatives are very disturbed by the lack of a "moral compass" on the part of the left. For instance, all of the most murderous and genocidal political regimes/tyrants of the past century have been some form of socialism (Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism-Leninism, etc.), accounting for hundreds of millions of deaths and unfathomable ecoonomic destruction and misery. The political left seems extraordinarily callous about the magnitude of the crimes or their responsibility in them.
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Nobody, except you and your pals, think Stalin, Mao and Lenin were anything but authoritarian despots. It's a trite and predictable argument that you're presenting in trying to twist facts. Not surprising. Not the least bit original. Try harder next time.
I'm not sure that brutal leftist ideological thought has completely disappeared.

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I would also add that a lot of Trump voters vote based on their feelings and their core attitudes.
<snip>
This is why I've said that it's time for rural white America to experience the worst of COVID. They need to get a reality check <snip> - it's time that they start paying that price now.

Last edited by Wrenching Spanners; 04-03-2020 at 01:24 PM.
  #187  
Old 04-03-2020, 01:38 PM
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Most conservatives are very disturbed by the lack of a "moral compass" on the part of the left. For instance, all of the most murderous and genocidal political regimes/tyrants of the past century have been some form of socialism (Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism-Leninism, etc.), accounting for hundreds of millions of deaths and unfathomable ecoonomic destruction and misery. The political left seems extraordinarily callous about the magnitude of the crimes or their responsibility in them.

It is my personal view, that precisely because of moral insensitivity, the political left has been in retreat domestically, as well as globally, for decades, and has no credible future.

Again, this statement is very strongly at odds with most people's views, myself included.
So all these statements are verifiably false, but are consistent with conservative rhetoric espoused by media such as Fox News and Breitbart.

American progressive liberalism, socialism, communism, Marxism, and Nazism (fascism) are very different philosophies, forms of government and economic frameworks.

The most obvious example would be progressives pushing for equal rights for LGBT, women, minorities, and immigrants. That is in complete opposition to the fundamental tenets of Nazi fascism (racial purity). Not to mention that all the actual racists and neo-Nazis seem to embrace the Republican party. And yet, somehow the conservative media has warped people's brains into embracing this doublethink that the people who embrace equal rites, protecting the environment, and placing limitations on corporate power are equivalent to Hitler, Stalin and Mao.
  #188  
Old 04-03-2020, 01:52 PM
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So all these statements are verifiably false, but are consistent with conservative rhetoric espoused by media such as Fox News and Breitbart.

American progressive liberalism, socialism, communism, Marxism, and Nazism (fascism) are very different philosophies, forms of government and economic frameworks.

The most obvious example would be progressives pushing for equal rights for LGBT, women, minorities, and immigrants. That is in complete opposition to the fundamental tenets of Nazi fascism (racial purity). Not to mention that all the actual racists and neo-Nazis seem to embrace the Republican party. And yet, somehow the conservative media has warped people's brains into embracing this doublethink that the people who embrace equal rites, protecting the environment, and placing limitations on corporate power are equivalent to Hitler, Stalin and Mao.
C'mon, they were the National Socialists! It says "socialist" right in the name! Take that, lefty!

Similarly, I'm sure our new friend would agree that North Korea is quite the democracy, as was East Germany in its day.
  #189  
Old 04-03-2020, 02:03 PM
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You can dispute the truth of those statements, but what is obvious is that they are divisive which was my point.

I will put it next to my logic degree from the University of Science.
What science or university would teach a leader to lie about what a government agency does and instead of accepting that he is wrong, the administration decides that it is better to change the mission statement of the government agency to fit the lie?

https://twitter.com/LEBassett/status...99093694435328
Quote:

Quote:
JARED KUSHNER: "The notion of the federal stockpile was it's supposed to be our stockpile. It's not supposed to be states stockpiles that they then use."
Laura Bassett:

The website for the federal stockpile literally says it’s for states to use when they need it
Later:
Quote:
Oh my god... it took the government less than 24 hours to change the copy on its website about stockpiles to make it look like Kushner was right. Unbelievable.
Quote:
They’re trying to excuse their failure to provide states with enough emergency COVID equipment by saying it’s not their job to do so. The website clearly said it was their job, after Kushner said it wasn’t, so they changed the website to suggest states should have their own SPs.
I have seen similar Orwellian changes made on agencies that have to deal with the issue of global warming and carbon emissions.

That is Trump University "science".
  #190  
Old 04-03-2020, 02:19 PM
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... Is it a mainstream Democrat position that "Trump supporters believe in a constructed false reality. They simply believe things that are made-up and imagined."?

If the liberal vs conservative argument in the US is so inflamed that the above statement is a typical liberal position, then it's no wonder that US politics is so polarised....
@ Wrenching Spanners — Do you believe the phone call to Ukraine's President was an illicit solicitation? Do you believe Trump disbanded the pandemic response team? Do you believe Betsy DeVos and Rick Perry were unqualified for their Cabinet posts? Do you believe it was proper for N.Y. authorities to order the Trump Foundation shut down? Do you believe it was improper for Trump to meet with Putin without any other American present?

Please take time time to answer these questions. Just five little Y or N symbols. Yes, I'm afraid that many rational Americans DO think that "Trump supporters believe in a constructed false reality." Let's start by testing that hypothesis with you.
  #191  
Old 04-03-2020, 02:53 PM
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I'm not sure that brutal leftist ideological thought has completely disappeared.
BTW, that poster has been criticized many times before in this message board, what you are doing there is a nutpick.

On the right side of things, very lousy pickings are not dismissed by the majority but instead put in positions of power. Like Kushner.
  #192  
Old 04-03-2020, 03:55 PM
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My theory is that American politics is like a debate for high school class president between the valedictorian (Democrats) and the dumb popular jock (Republicans). The valedictorian makes a lot of great points and has a lot of really good ideas. The jock's friends all think the valedictorian is a "nerd" and a "homo". Much of the undecided middle will just vote for the guy who looks cool and drives a sports car his parents bought him because "who cares who wins anyway?"
  #193  
Old 04-03-2020, 05:51 PM
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I'm not sure that brutal leftist ideological thought has completely disappeared.
The difference is, Republicans actually pass discriminatory laws against minorities (LGBTQ, etc), women (abortion), Democrats (redistricting), while liberals like our friend asahi, though wrong, is actually not a threat in any way because plenty of fellow liberals will not actually endorse his ranting as a viable social policy. So I know it works to your advantage to make him out to be an existential threat, and rush out to stock up on guns and ammo because the liberals are comin'! It's really just another example of irrational behavior we've been discussing in this thread.
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  #194  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:25 PM
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The only parallel that i can relate to the bewildering Trump support would be the LaQuan McDonald case.

As a very pro law enforcement person and therefore admittedly biased, I initially believed the CPD version of events - PURELY - because of my bias. However once we learned that a single officer with a violent history shot the man 16 times in 15 seconds after arriving on the scene just a minute before and then saw the video... bias or no bias the facts and lies were obvious. The CPD lied, period.

Does that mean that i can no longer be pro law enforcement? Of course not, for every Jason Van Dyke scumbag officer, there are 1000 heroes... but to watch (to this day) there are legions of pro law enforcement people (my people?) who legitimately think that officer - who shot a man 16 times, half of them into his back, while he was on the ground, likely dead - was completely justified.

I still do not have an answer as to why as the above scenario is - to me - a strong allegory to being a Trump supporter, yet i had clarity once the facts were clear.

But it is THAT kind of thinking, that kind of blind loyalty and that kind of myopic vision that we are now watching on a national scale with Trump. And make no mistake, his is far far more dangerous than any single corrupt police officer.
  #195  
Old 04-03-2020, 11:30 PM
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Thank you, Wrenching Spanners


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Is mainstream political discourse in the US as polarised as the posts in this thread? If so, there's your answer. If a prominent message from the left is that the views of the right are contemptible, then the right is going to be deaf to all messages from the left. So just like the left would prefer the rotting corpse of Hitler over Trump, the right would prefer literally any Republican over a leftist.
I appreciate you, Wrenching Spanners, for your refreshing post. You kinda got it perfectly. Though admittedly a moron who voted for Trump, with little to say in my defense, I'm still distressed by the uncharitable discourse of this thread. The warm fuzzy values of inclusiveness, tolerance, open-mindedness, etc., championed by certain people on the Left, strangely vaporize (or "vaporise", I suppose, to Wrenching Spanners) when it comes to me. Evidently, to have tolerance and respect for all human beings, of whatever origin or self-creation, stops short of people who voted for Trump. Perhaps it's thought that people who voted for Trump are less than human.

It would be a fun exercise to go back through this thread and insert my name after every fearful, hateful, gratuitously generalized opinion about Trump supporters, then stand back and look at how I, as a fellow American person, have been thoroughly insulted, degraded, ostracized, humiliated, judged, and condemned. Where is the inclusivity? Where is the tolerance and respect?

Anyway, to answer the question that started this thread, I voted for Trump for the following reasons:
1. He was the Republican presidential candidate.
2. I dislike and distrust Hillary Clinton, as well as her platform.
3. I don't think Trump is a monster, at all. He's a sinful guy like you and me. That's what I think. But what do I know, being an egregiously stupid right-wing voter?
4. I have several deeply rooted beliefs which, the last time I looked, I'm entitled to as an American, that are being systematically dug up, defamed, and put on trial, on a grand public scale, starting in kindergarten.
5. It looks like the Democrats keep trying to put people into groups. When did I stop being an individual and become part of a category? It is a chilling thing to consider that I'm condemned because of the box that you put me into in the first place.

Moronically Yours, Shannon of
  #196  
Old 04-03-2020, 11:55 PM
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Here is something new the GOP gets to eat- a shit sandwich- of their own making:
https://www.politico.com/states/flor...-trump-1271172

And looks like trump will now lose Florida, which means he loses the election.


The staggering unemployment exploding on President Donald Trump’s watch would worry any incumbent running for reelection, but troubles in Florida are injecting an added dose of fear into a jittery GOP.

Already anxious about Trump’s chances in the nation’s biggest swing state, Republicans now are dealing with thousands of unemployed workers unable to navigate the Florida system to apply for help. And the blowback is directed straight at Trump’s top allies in the state, Gov. Ron DeSantis and Sen. Rick Scott.....
The new online system was part of a series of changes designed to limit benefits. The ultimate goal — which it delivered on — was to lower unemployment taxes paid by Florida businesses. A 2011 analysis done by the Florida Legislature estimated that the changes pushed by Scott would save businesses more than $2.3 billion between 2011 and 2020.

Now, as thousands of people try to get help, the system crashes or denies them access. Nearly 400,000 people have managed to file claims in the last two and half weeks. It’s not known how many have tried and failed.

Most of those who do submit applications won’t qualify for aid, and the benefits that are paid out are among the most meager in the country — a maximum of $275 a week.

“This is horrible for people. I don’t want to minimize that,” one DeSantis adviser told POLITICO. “But if we have to look past the crisis, it’s bad for the president and it’s bad for the governor.”

“Everyone we talk to in that office when we ask them what happened tells us, ‘the system was designed to fail,’” the adviser said. “That’s not a problem when unemployment is 2.8 percent, but it’s a problem now. And no system we have can handle 25,000 people a day.”
  #197  
Old 04-04-2020, 01:44 AM
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I'm neither Republican nor Democrat. I'd strongly consider voting for a Republican other than Trump if there were any other GOP candidates. I have many friends and relatives who are die-hard Trump supporters. Almost all of them use Fox News as their primary news source. Here's what they've told me about why they support Trump:

• He's really a good guy; it's just that the MSM has vilified him.
• He's an embarrassment, but I know he won't cave to Democratic demands.
• He tells it like it is.
• When liberals criticize Trump, they criticize me because I agree with him on the issues.

I also have conservative friends who hate Donald Trump and feel that Trump has ruined the GOP. They want their party back.

I'd like to offer a little twist on the OP for Trump supporters. Suppose there were another GOP candidate for president, one who firmly upholds the GOP platforms on all major political/social issues including abortion and the right to bear arms, but who behaves with dignity, isn't sending thin-skinned or self-congratulatory tweets, is well-educated and knowledgeable, chooses excellent advisors and listens to them, and who has integrity. Would you vote for that candidate over Donald Trump in 2020?
  #198  
Old 04-04-2020, 02:07 AM
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@ Wrenching Spanners — Do you believe the phone call to Ukraine's President was an illicit solicitation? Do you believe Trump disbanded the pandemic response team? Do you believe Betsy DeVos and Rick Perry were unqualified for their Cabinet posts? Do you believe it was proper for N.Y. authorities to order the Trump Foundation shut down? Do you believe it was improper for Trump to meet with Putin without any other American present?

Please take time time to answer these questions. Just five little Y or N symbols. Yes, I'm afraid that many rational Americans DO think that "Trump supporters believe in a constructed false reality." Let's start by testing that hypothesis with you.
No response? The suggestion was made that the reputation that Trump supporters are uninformed bigots is undeserved; that they are aware of facts and competent to form opinions; that they are not simply gulled dolts dripping with ignorance. I gave Trump supporters a chance to demonstrate that claim.

If Mr. Spanners cannot answer, how about the other Trump supporters in the thread? @ Shannon of — Would you be kind enough to answer these simple yes/no questions?
  #199  
Old 04-04-2020, 02:20 AM
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@ Wrenching Spanners — Do you believe the phone call to Ukraine's President was an illicit solicitation? Do you believe Trump disbanded the pandemic response team? Do you believe Betsy DeVos and Rick Perry were unqualified for their Cabinet posts? Do you believe it was proper for N.Y. authorities to order the Trump Foundation shut down? Do you believe it was improper for Trump to meet with Putin without any other American present?

Please take time time to answer these questions. Just five little Y or N symbols. Yes, I'm afraid that many rational Americans DO think that "Trump supporters believe in a constructed false reality." Let's start by testing that hypothesis with you.
Sure, I'm happy to answer your questions, although I'm going to answer as I see fit. It's a message board after all.

Do you believe the phone call to Ukraine's President was an illicit solicitation? Yes, but not an impeachable one.

Do you believe Trump disbanded the pandemic response team? Yes

Do you believe Betsy DeVos and Rick Perry were unqualified for their Cabinet posts? No. A senior party operative and a former governor seem pretty standard candidates for mid-level cabinet posts.

Do you believe it was proper for N.Y. authorities to order the Trump Foundation shut down? Yes.

Do you believe it was improper for Trump to meet with Putin without any other American present? No. I also don't believe that Putin is blackmailing Trump, or that Putin was the mastermind behind Trump's election.

So what's your point? These are obviously actions associated with Trump that you disagree with. Some of my answers probably are different than yours. Does that mean that I "believe in a constructed false reality"? Or does it mean that I think differently than you, have different ideas than you, and make different choices than you because I have different priorities or a different viewpoint?
  #200  
Old 04-04-2020, 02:22 AM
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BTW, that poster has been criticized many times before in this message board, what you are doing there is a nutpick.
Sometimes low hanging fruit is just asking to be picked. And sometimes low hanging nutty statements are just asking to be ridiculed.
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