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  #251  
Old 04-13-2020, 02:47 PM
Sdowiat is offline
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Right at 50% but you can't understand them?


Right at 50% of the country voted for the guy but you somehow can't understand why any of them would support him? Where have you been living... in some kind of New York urban bubble echo chamber?

You need to get out more. The vast majority of land in this country is inhabited by good people, the backbone of this great country, who picked Trump, and yet you can't understand how that could be... Hillary had the same type of problem, and it's looking like Biden and the rest of the Democrats do as well.

You can't go "looking down on" and showing contempt for the very people you need support from ( at least not so that they can tell! ) and expect to win many elections.

What I want to know is HOW the Democrats, not long ago, the supporters of these "Common People" came to be in league against them and all focused on transgender bathroom stuff. Plan you a vacation to the heartland. Get out there and spend time in what ya'll call "Flyover Country" and get to know some common, normal folks and come to understand what THEY VALUE.
  #252  
Old 04-13-2020, 04:08 PM
HMS Irruncible is offline
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Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
You need to get out more. The vast majority of land in this country is inhabited by good people, the backbone of this great country, who picked Trump, and yet you can't understand how that could be...
Correction... the vast majority of land in this country is inhabited by NO PEOPLE. As in, unpopulated. As a result, the votes of people living in those states count more than the more popular states. That's why more people voted for Hillary, but Trump still won.

Again, more people voted for Hillary. 3 million more people... not even close. She was and is more popular than Trump. You should never forget that he won thanks to a constitutional loophole that allows losers to claim victory. Trump will always be a loser no matter how he manages to work the refs.
  #253  
Old 04-13-2020, 04:58 PM
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I live near Atlantic City, New Jersey. No metropolis, to be sure. But even here the diversity (cultural, racial, religious etc.) is quite evident. I used to hunt in central Pennsylvania and still spend a fair amount of leisure time there. The diversity (or lack thereof) there is quite different. With the exception of south/central Americans working in agriculture, the population is almost exclusively white. I submit that people who live in this kind of Trump territory are against anything that's different from what they know and have known exclusively for all their lives. You know - minorities, city slickers, and not least of all, liberals! To be sure, the locals I've come to know are essentially good people. Raised with a strong work ethic, hunters and outdoorsmen (guns!), self-sufficient and proud. BUT they are also racists to a certain extent. Generally, intolerant of people who don't share their core values (USA! USA!, christianity and guns) or look like them. I think people fear what they don't know and this translates in to votes for people like Trump who pander to their fears. For all their flag-waving they seem to miss that "We the people" includes everyone, not just their demographic. There is plenty of fault with both sides but it is my opinion that Rs are much less tolerant of others than Ds. BTW, I am a registered R but don't always vote that way. Certainly not lately.
  #254  
Old 04-14-2020, 06:49 AM
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Full stop, besides showing all that you miss the point spectacularly, of course it was a statement that deserved to be ridiculed; read it again. You missed that I did agree with that by talking about a nitpick, you then are going on by blissfully ignoring that your tangent was a fallacy, the rancour you see is just bias confirmation as you pointed at one nutty statement of one that is criticized strongly (even by me in more that one occasion).
Well I'm certainly missing the point of this post. I can't figure out what the hell you're going on about, or how it relates to the OP. Apparently you think that I'm judging liberal partisanship based on a single poster "making the nutty statements as if all the left and liberals are like that." For the record, I don't think that all liberals are ideological sociopaths, just the worst ones. However, I do believe that a solid majority of liberals are emotionally overinvested in their hatred of Trump, and they're irrationally aiming their hatred in a scattershot at all Republicans and pretty much anyone who isn't on their liberal bandwagon. The OP wants to know why there isn't universal condemnation of Donald Trump. Part of the issue is that people who voted for Trump because he was the Republican candidate for president are looking at the state of liberal American politics, turning up their noses at it, and staying away from that midden.
  #255  
Old 04-14-2020, 06:57 AM
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Again, mistaken perceived threats or misunderstandings are likely in issues like this, (BTW others besides the University president were cited, you just ignored that) just remember what took place with the MAGA students confronted by the native American that were in the news recently, almost all got the reasons and facts wrong in that event, even if video was present.
While I think we can agree to disagree on my point, your latter point about the MAGA students and the Indian were IMO (and i hate to admit this) clear media bias/problems with context.

Looking at the video out of context gave an almost diametrically opposed viewpoint than when looking at the full video without edit.
  #256  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
good people, the backbone of this great country, who picked Trump,
Does not compute. If they voted for DJT they are be definition horrible people. We have to act like adults. The id part of us wants things open, wants to go to movies and ballgames, wants everything as it was. The superego knows this is dangerous and wants to keep in quarantine. The trouble is you have a fool in the White House that is 100% id. His supporters are so much invested in him that his words count as gospel and require no evaluation. So when DJT says get out, they're going to wonder why their governor isn't groveling at his feet.
  #257  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
You literally started a highjack about Trump's 2 least qualified cabinet appointments, you deceptively fluffed their credentials, and then you pretend we're the irrational ones. You should cringe in shame and hide under a rock somewhere, this is a pathetic performance.
You're wrong about the hijack. I was responding to a request from Septimus. But then you're used to being wrong, aren't you?

What's the opposite of rose-coloured glasses? Crimson shades? You and all the other sufferers of Trump derangement syndrome are so devastated that you lost the 2016 election that you're still crying about it over three years later. You're looking at any decision or action taken by Trump or his administration and automatically hating it, because "Trump". If you want to debate Trump's cabinet appointments, open a new thread. But I seriously doubt you'll be able to discuss the topic objectively because you'll see the word "Trump", your vision will go red, and steam will start hissing out of your ears. And people on the other side of the political divide will look at your biliousness and treat it with the disdain it deserves.

Last edited by Wrenching Spanners; 04-14-2020 at 07:24 AM.
  #258  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:57 AM
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Hey Wrenching Spanners - will you please, PLEASE opine on Trump's incessant lying? These are not "mis-statements" or "alternate facts". They are, demonstrably, outright lies about serious issues. The big question had been, "How will Trump react in a real crisis?" We now have the predictable answer. Lying, finger pointing, denial of responsibility (while, at the same, time taking credit) and blaming the media. His is concerned about one thing - himself. He is a charlatan and a con-man and has been his whole life. You and a minority of other Americans are the marks. And easy ones, at that. Trump isn't just 100% id. He is 100% idiot.
  #259  
Old 04-14-2020, 08:03 AM
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There's no such thing as Trump Derangement Syndrome. It's something Trump supporters made up so they don't have to address criticism of Trump, similar to how news can be ignored because it's Fake News. Trump supporters support Trump, but cannot defend Trump.
  #260  
Old 04-14-2020, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
Right at 50% of the country voted for the guy but you somehow can't understand why any of them would support him? Where have you been living... in some kind of New York urban bubble echo chamber?

You need to get out more. The vast majority of land in this country is inhabited by good people, the backbone of this great country, who picked Trump, and yet you can't understand how that could be... Hillary had the same type of problem, and it's looking like Biden and the rest of the Democrats do as well.

You can't go "looking down on" and showing contempt for the very people you need support from ( at least not so that they can tell! ) and expect to win many elections.

What I want to know is HOW the Democrats, not long ago, the supporters of these "Common People" came to be in league against them and all focused on transgender bathroom stuff. Plan you a vacation to the heartland. Get out there and spend time in what ya'll call "Flyover Country" and get to know some common, normal folks and come to understand what THEY VALUE.
You know… morons.


Look, I spend plenty of time with my conservative inlaws in Northern New Jersey and Western Pennsylvania and listen to them talk with their conservative neighbors. And I hear what Fox News tells them because my wife throws it on in the background all day. AND even in New York City, I know plenty of Trump supporting conservatives and I read what they post online.

I stand by my opinion that by and large conservatives willfully ignore facts and data that contradicts their ideology. And I'm not even particularly progressive or liberal. I'm just sick of listening to dumb-ass conservatives backsplain how well Trump is handling the COVID-19 pandemic and their fantasies about how terribly Democrats would have done this, that and the other thing, based on their weird conspiracy fantasies.

Trump supporters support Trump because, like any good marketer, he tells people what they want to hear so they can feel good about doing what they want to do.

Last edited by msmith537; 04-14-2020 at 08:04 AM.
  #261  
Old 04-14-2020, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
Well I'm certainly missing the point of this post. I can't figure out what the hell you're going on about, or how it relates to the OP. Apparently you think that I'm judging liberal partisanship based on a single poster "making the nutty statements as if all the left and liberals are like that."
Yes, you can get it.

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Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
For the record, I don't think that all liberals are ideological sociopaths, just the worst ones. However, I do believe that a solid majority of liberals are emotionally overinvested in their hatred of Trump, and they're irrationally aiming their hatred in a scattershot at all Republicans and pretty much anyone who isn't on their liberal bandwagon. The OP wants to know why there isn't universal condemnation of Donald Trump. Part of the issue is that people who voted for Trump because he was the Republican candidate for president are looking at the state of liberal American politics, turning up their noses at it, and staying away from that midden.
Oh, you mean like when even many conservatives agree with liberals when 82 percent of Americans think wealthy people have too much power and influence in Washington, 82 percent of Americans think economic inequality is a “very big”, 96 percent of Americans—including 96 percent of Republicans—believe money in politics is to blame for the dysfunction of the U.S. political system, 80 percent of Americans think some corporations don’t pay their fair share of taxes, 74 percent of registered voters—including 71 percent of Republicans—support requiring employers to offer paid parental and medical leave, 60 percent of Americans believe “it is the federal government’s responsibility to make sure all Americans have healthcare coverage.”?

https://prospect.org/power/americans-liberal-even-know/

As for still insisting that hatred for Trump is irrational, you really just show that you are willing to ignore a lot of information that does not fit your views.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ilures/609532/

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/13/83279...onavirus_daily
  #262  
Old 04-14-2020, 11:31 AM
HMS Irruncible is offline
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You and all the other sufferers of Trump derangement syndrome are so devastated that you lost the 2016 election that you're still crying about it over three years later.
I am just pointing out that 3 million more Americans voted for Hillary than Trump. He isn't liked by most Americans and nothing is going to make that fact go disappear.

Quote:
You're looking at any decision or action taken by Trump or his administration and automatically hating it, because "Trump".
I think you're doing a bit of projecting here, and I think you're obviously unfamiliar with my posting history because I'm (among) the first to fairly credit Trump when he says or does something right. For example he's consistently right about interest rates being too high (though for corrupt reasons) and he was correct to engage North Korea without a bunch of ceremonial dick-waving (though, half marks on that, he executed poorly and didn't follow through). He's been decisively right on some other things. These things are difficult to recall because they're fairly minor and easily overwhelmed by the copious stream of criminal bullshit emanating from him and his racket.

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If you want to debate Trump's cabinet appointments, open a new thread.
You're really in no position to demand that I not respond to your dreck wherever I see it.

Quote:
But I seriously doubt you'll be able to discuss the topic objectively because you'll see the word "Trump", your vision will go red, and steam will start hissing out of your ears.
I always know I've won when someone resorts to lurid imaginative mind-reading. Thanks for failing, enjoy being whatever miserable thing that entails.
  #263  
Old 04-16-2020, 09:07 AM
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"I am just pointing out that 3 million more Americans voted for Hillary than Trump. He isn't liked by most Americans and nothing is going to make that fact go disappear.'

Wait. Are you sure about that? Weren't there millions of votes fraudulently cast during the 2016 election, all in favor of Clinton? And wasn't there some sort of commission formed that investigated this, found and then presented the evidence of this and rampant voter fraud throughout the country? I'm certain that I heard this somewhere. Fox?
  #264  
Old 04-17-2020, 08:15 AM
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I hate to beat a dead horse but... fifteen days since I first asked anyone (generally) and Wrenching Spanners (specifically) to defend Trump's non-stop lying. Not a peep. I can only conclude that no one is defending Trumpnoccio because he is, in fact, indefensible in this regard and any attempt to do so will be met with logic, truth and actual facts with citations. I will go my grave not understanding how people can be O.K. with his inarticulate, babbling lies and bullshit because "Look at the economy!" or "I like what he's doing". BTW, I'm equally puzzled by the Democrats inability to come with a candidate that isn't a shoe-in for 2020. It was said that only Trump could beat Hillary and only Hillary could lose to Trump. We will never know about the first part of that but the second part?
  #265  
Old 04-17-2020, 09:36 AM
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The explanation is that, in Trump's mind, he is not lying. Trump was raised in the ministry of Norman Vincent Peale. He was taught to only deal with the world as he wants it to be and the world will bend to his will. It's the Power of Positive Thinking. It kind of works for a billionaire with dependent minions.

In the world of positive thinking there is no past and there are no objective facts, only the world as you imagine it to be. If your faith is strong enough the world will conform to your view.

Much was made of the views of Barrack Obama's minister. Views that had nothing to do with Obama's actions. It is odd that the ministry that defines Trump is ignored by the press and his critics.

https://www.businessinsider.com/infl...d-trump-2017-1
  #266  
Old 04-17-2020, 10:10 AM
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I will go my grave not understanding how people can be O.K. with his inarticulate, babbling lies and bullshit because "Look at the economy!" or "I like what he's doing".
I'm not a Trump voter myself, but I don't see why this is hard to understand. Plenty of people are perfectly willing to tolerate (not like, but tolerate) something bad on the side if they get a main course of what they want. Patriots fans may not be thrilled about their team's cheating, but they'd never trade in those 6 Belichick-won championships for "honor's" sake. Patton was an SOB to many people in World War II, but all the Allies cared about was a general who could win. Steelers fans may acknowledge the refs were biased in Super Bowl XL, but they sure aren't giving back that championship. Etc. etc.

As long as the benefits of whatever Trump is doing (in the eyes of his voters) outweigh his inarticulate babbling lies, they'll happily turn a deaf ear to the latter.
  #267  
Old 04-17-2020, 11:34 AM
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Correction... the vast majority of land in this country is inhabited by NO PEOPLE. As in, unpopulated. As a result, the votes of people living in those states count more than the more popular states. That's why more people voted for Hillary, but Trump still won.
I think it's a mistake that each state gets two extra electoral votes for its "Senators"; however Trump would have won the electoral college without this. A big reason the popular vote was circumvented in 2016 is that Clinton won California by almost 4,300,000 votes but 4,299,000 of these votes were just "wasted" surplus. Trump won Michigan by only (almost) 11,000 votes and only 10,999 of these were "wasted" surplus.

However it is true that the extra 2 ev's per state gave Bush victory over Gore in 2000. Without those evs the 2004 election would have been much closer, but Kerry still would have lost. (I think you have to go back to 1916 for another election where the extra 2 evs made a difference. The incumbent Woodrow Wilson would have lost in a squeaker, if the states voted the same way!)


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Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
... What I want to know is HOW the Democrats, not long ago, the supporters of these "Common People" came to be in league against them and all focused on transgender bathroom stuff.
I'm afraid it is you who is desperately "in a bubble." Where do you get your news from, BTW?

Not only aren't ALL Democrats focused on "transgender bathroom stuff", VERY few of them even care about this issue. It is right-wing liars like Sean Hannity or Alex Jones who focus on such stuff, hoping to confuse and anger Common People who don't access competent news sources. I'm afraid we see yet more evidence that they succeed.
  #268  
Old 04-17-2020, 12:03 PM
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Well, according to this poll, a full 90.51% of responders said they're definitely not voting for Trump, so I'm thinking maybe this isn't the best place on the internet to ask this sort of question. A vast majority of answers are going to come from extremely hostile Trump opponents, thereby suppressing any honest discussion, so I don't see the point. Perhaps prefacing it with "Trump supporters ONLY" might help, but I doubt it.
  #269  
Old 04-18-2020, 10:42 AM
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I'm not a Trump voter myself, but I don't see why this is hard to understand. Plenty of people are perfectly willing to tolerate (not like, but tolerate) something bad on the side if they get a main course of what they want. Patriots fans may not be thrilled about their team's cheating, but they'd never trade in those 6 Belichick-won championships for "honor's" sake. Patton was an SOB to many people in World War II, but all the Allies cared about was a general who could win. Steelers fans may acknowledge the refs were biased in Super Bowl XL, but they sure aren't giving back that championship. Etc. etc.

As long as the benefits of whatever Trump is doing (in the eyes of his voters) outweigh his inarticulate babbling lies, they'll happily turn a deaf ear to the latter.
I do understand that sort of thinking when it comes to things like football teams. In other words, things that don't really matter. As far as your Patton example goes - did he lack credibility or was he just a prick? When it comes to national leadership, don't Trumpers ever take pause and think "Well, if he is lying about THAT what else might he be lying about? My economic future, maybe?" or "My health?". The inability to think critically is a hallmark of true Trumpers.
  #270  
Old 04-19-2020, 09:08 AM
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My oldest son is a die hard Trump supporter. His views and logic are cultural - Louisiana good old boy. He understands why I believe as I do, but my well meaning liberalism is just an artifact of another time. He thinks critically in a different frame of reference from mine. He has insight into the vast conspiracies of the deep state. Trump is the instrument of needed change. Trump will restore the Constitution. My generation, and it's values, will soon be gone.
  #271  
Old 04-19-2020, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Crane View Post
The explanation is that, in Trump's mind, he is not lying. Trump was raised in the ministry of Norman Vincent Peale. He was taught to only deal with the world as he wants it to be and the world will bend to his will. It's the Power of Positive Thinking. It kind of works for a billionaire with dependent minions.

In the world of positive thinking there is no past and there are no objective facts, only the world as you imagine it to be. If your faith is strong enough the world will conform to your view.
Y'know I used to not give this much importance but looking it over with the passing of time, there may be something to that.

He knows what he's saying is contrary to reality, but to him it's not "lying", it's declaring what should be. Name It and Claim It, the more recent Prosperity Gospel calls it.
Quote:
Much was made of the views of Barrack Obama's minister. Views that had nothing to do with Obama's actions. It is odd that the ministry that defines Trump is ignored by the press and his critics.
Probably because NVP is seen as an artifact of another time and a lot of the mainstream see nothing wrong or dangerous with his preaching (unlike a scary black-church firebrand) -- and also because they do not want to be countered with both-sidesism.

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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Not only aren't ALL Democrats focused on "transgender bathroom stuff", VERY few of them even care about this issue. It is right-wing liars like Sean Hannity or Alex Jones who focus on such stuff, hoping to confuse and anger Common People who don't access competent news sources. I'm afraid we see yet more evidence that they succeed.
Right. The Democrats never "turned" on the common folk. But they did decide that people other than their old popular base ALSO deserved to be taken care of, and that's where things began going downhill.

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Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
I do understand that sort of thinking when it comes to things like football teams. In other words, things that don't really matter. As far as your Patton example goes - did he lack credibility or was he just a prick? When it comes to national leadership, don't Trumpers ever take pause and think "Well, if he is lying about THAT what else might he be lying about? My economic future, maybe?" or "My health?".
Again, to them he is not lying. To them, he's saying how things should be. And yes, to them is IS something at the level of winning a football championship. Don't underestimate the effect that to a lot of that hardcore "base", they already see that their chances at a good economic future or the security of their health are already done deals. What counts now is affirmation that the way they feel and the values they hold matter and are not wrong or deserving of eradication. As I said that elsewhere, many of them hear us liberals make our points and what they hear is "the path for your children's future is for them to grow up to be, act, and talk like US, NOT like you". To them, having their children foreswear their ways is a fate worse than economic ruin or ill health. They'll happily chose a prick who prevents that.


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Originally Posted by Crane View Post
My oldest son is a die hard Trump supporter. His views and logic are cultural - Louisiana good old boy. He understands why I believe as I do, but my well meaning liberalism is just an artifact of another time. He thinks critically in a different frame of reference from mine. He has insight into the vast conspiracies of the deep state. Trump is the instrument of needed change. Trump will restore the Constitution. My generation, and it's values, will soon be gone.
Interesting... so, pretty much the same POV we get from progressives, that the establishment position is doomed to pass away, displaced by the new? With the notable variant of a higher degree of personalization.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 04-19-2020 at 11:21 AM.
  #272  
Old 04-19-2020, 12:42 PM
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My oldest son is a die hard Trump supporter. His views and logic are cultural - Louisiana good old boy. He understands why I believe as I do, but my well meaning liberalism is just an artifact of another time. He thinks critically in a different frame of reference from mine. He has insight into the vast conspiracies of the deep state. Trump is the instrument of needed change. Trump will restore the Constitution. My generation, and it's values, will soon be gone.

If "good old boy" and "insight into the vast conspiracies of the deep state" mean what I think you mean, then it sounds like logic based off of cherry picked and made up "facts" in a culture that actively rejects education, science, or the concept of caring how their actions may impact other people.


It's like Trump supporters explaining Trump constantly advocating hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for COVID-19. Their argument is "if you are dying, isn't trying anything better than nothing at all?" Sure, but that doesn't mean it WORKS. Maybe some anecdotal evidence exists that some people treated with hydroxychloroquine got better. But maybe they would have gotten better anyway. Until they actually do formal, scientifically-based trial tests, we won't know if it actually works. And there is a cost associated with using those drugs if they don't work, both in depriving people who actually need hydroxychloroquine and wasting time that would be better spent on other treatments.

It's an argument not based on science or logic. If Trump happens to be right about hydroxychloroquine, it would be by accident, not because he actually knows what he is talking about. But that doesn't matter to his supporters.
  #273  
Old 04-19-2020, 07:47 PM
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The explanation is that, in Trump's mind, he is not lying. Trump was raised in the ministry of Norman Vincent Peale. He was taught to only deal with the world as he wants it to be and the world will bend to his will. It's the Power of Positive Thinking. It kind of works for a billionaire with dependent minions.
In the world of positive thinking there is no past and there are no objective facts, only the world as you imagine it to be. If your faith is strong enough the world will conform to your view.
...It is odd that the ministry that defines Trump is ignored by the press and his critics.
https://www.businessinsider.com/infl...d-trump-2017-1
This is a claim that has no logical or evidentiary support.

It's extremely popular among Trump apologists, of course, because it makes Trump look sane and normal. But it's easily disproved by the fact that the vast majority of Trump's lies are negative rather than positive.

Here's a link that's a good starting place for verifying the negative--not positive--slant of most of Trump's lies. Wikipedia, yes,but it compiles a very large number of sources that catalog and classify Trump's lies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veraci...y_Donald_Trump

Anyone attempting to sell the 'Trump is following the tradition of Norman Vincent Peale' theory must explain Trump's most famous lies, such as:


TRUMP'S HERITAGE:
Quote:
Fearing that anti-German sentiments during and after World War II would negatively affect his business, Fred Trump began claiming Swedish descent. The falsehood was repeated by Fred's son Donald to the press and in The Art of the Deal, where he claimed that his grandfather, Friedrich Trump, "came here from Sweden as a child". In the same book, Donald also said his father was born in New Jersey. Trump later said, "My father is German. Right? Was German. And born in a very wonderful place in Germany, and so I have a great feeling for Germany." Trump's father was born in the Bronx, New York.
(ibid)
-----How is being born in Sweden rather than Germany "positive thinking"? How is Trump's later lie, about his father being born in Germany (rather than in the Bronx), "positive thinking"?

TRUMP'S 9-11 LIES: Famously Trump claimed
Quote:
...on November 21, 2015 in comments during a speech:
"I watched in Jersey City, N.J., where thousands and thousands of people were cheering" as the World Trade Center collapsed.

The next day, ABC This Week host George Stephanopoulos asked Trump if he misspoke, noting that "the police say that didn't happen."

Trump -- who has said he was in his Manhattan apartment the morning of the attack -- doubled down. "It was on television. I saw it," Trump said. "It was well covered at the time, George. Now, I know they don't like to talk about it, but it was well covered at the time. There were people over in New Jersey that were watching it, a heavy Arab population, that were cheering as the buildings came down. Not good."

We looked back at the record to see what we could find about American Muslim celebrations in New Jersey on 9/11. While we found widely broadcast video of people in the Palestinian territories celebrating, we found no evidence to back up Trump’s description of events on American soil. ...
https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...new-jersey-ch/
Politifact awarded Trump's claim their "pants on fire" designation.

In what way is a false claim that "thousands and thousands" of Muslims in New Jersey cheered the results of the 9-11 attacks, an example of "positive thinking"? How does such a claim reflect the ministry of Norman Vincent Peale?


TRUMP'S HURRICANE DORIAN LIES:
Quote:
President Trump continues to defend his now four-day old assertion that Alabama was once in the projected path of Hurricane Dorian. In a new tweet Thursday morning, the President insisted "Alabama was going to be hit or grazed, and then Hurricane Dorian took a different path." ... On Wednesday, during an Oval Office briefing on Hurricane Dorian, President Trump displayed what appeared to be an official National Weather Service map from last Thursday, in which the storm's projected path was extended to Alabama by someone using a black marker. ...
Though he said the map shows "almost all models predicted it to go through Florida also hitting Georgia and Alabama," the paths drawn out on the map mostly miss Alabama. The map also notes at the bottom: "[National Hurricane Center] Advisories and County Emergency Management statements supersede this product."
...
https://www.npr.org/2019/09/04/75758...nclude-alabama
How does a lie that a particular state would be hit by a hurricane, represent "positive thinking"? How is being hit by a hurricane a 'positive' outcome? How does lying about it demonstrate having been "raised in the ministry of Norman Vincent Peale," as you claim in your post (quoted above)?

This abbreviated list merely scratches the surface of the many "negative thinking" lies Trump has been documented to have told.

The claim that Trump's conduct somehow is shielded by religion or exemplifies religious principles is, frankly, offensive to actually-religious people.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
...He knows what he's saying is contrary to reality, but to him it's not "lying", it's declaring what should be. Name It and Claim It, the more recent Prosperity Gospel calls it.

...Again, to them he is not lying. To them, he's saying how things should be.
...
Well, no. What Trump is saying is nothing to do with positive thinking. It's about aggrandizing himself---making himself look good, via the use of false claims.

There's no way a person of integrity can interpret such naked self-interest as being something holy or pious or even merely 'admirable.'

The pretense that Trump lying to make himself look good is a positive trait, stains the character of the person doing the pretending.

Last edited by Sherrerd; 04-19-2020 at 07:49 PM.
  #274  
Old 04-19-2020, 10:59 PM
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It's like Trump supporters explaining Trump constantly advocating hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for COVID-19. Their argument is "if you are dying, isn't trying anything better than nothing at all?" Sure, but that doesn't mean it WORKS. Maybe some anecdotal evidence exists that some people treated with hydroxychloroquine got better. But maybe they would have gotten better anyway. Until they actually do formal, scientifically-based trial tests, we won't know if it actually works. And there is a cost associated with using those drugs if they don't work, both in depriving people who actually need hydroxychloroquine and wasting time that would be better spent on other treatments.
Not to mention some very serious side effects, which children seem especially susceptible to.
  #275  
Old 04-20-2020, 09:22 AM
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Sherred,

Thanks for the comments.

Your post examines the phrase 'Positive Thinking' as normal English syntax, but in this case it is a term of art coined by Norman Vincent Peale. A practitioner of 'Positive Thinking' believes his thoughts can change reality:

"When you want something to happen, you first pray about it and then picture it as if it’s already happened. Hold the picture firmly in your mind. Release it into God’s hands, and do whatever work you need to do to make it happen.

….. When you hold the picturization firmly in mind, the picture can actualize; it comes to be because you’ve invoked God’s power and released creative energy." NVP

If the practitioner wants to have been born in Sweden, or wants Obama to have been born in Kenya, he treats it as though it has already happened. To him it has. A 70 year old lifelong practitioner does it without thinking. It's automatic. Perhaps even psychotic.

Trump was given enough money to allow him to exist only in his fantasy world that he learned in Peale's church. The backlog of false hoods, that you correctly refer to as lies, are history to Trump. To Trump reality is a lie.

I don't see this as justification for Trump. I am curious why it does not get closer scrutiny.

Last edited by Crane; 04-20-2020 at 09:23 AM.
  #276  
Old 04-20-2020, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Crane View Post
I don't see this as justification for Trump. I am curious why it does not get closer scrutiny.
Because there are insufficient provisions in government against a Kakistocracy. Volumes of books will be written about how government bureaucracy, checks & balances, co-equal branches, norms and regulations utterly failed, or were proven to be entirely inadequate in protecting America's democracy from the rise of a dangerous autocratic sociopath.

p.s.: Which may end up being somewhat good news to the Founding Fathers because they can finally get some rest from their burden of virtual infallibility, and modern America can finally take responsibility for it's future without constantly looking to the past.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 04-20-2020 at 10:04 AM.
  #277  
Old 04-22-2020, 07:45 AM
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Hey Wrenching Spanners - will you please, PLEASE opine on Trump's incessant lying? These are not "mis-statements" or "alternate facts". They are, demonstrably, outright lies about serious issues. The big question had been, "How will Trump react in a real crisis?" We now have the predictable answer. Lying, finger pointing, denial of responsibility (while, at the same, time taking credit) and blaming the media. His is concerned about one thing - himself. He is a charlatan and a con-man and has been his whole life. You and a minority of other Americans are the marks. And easy ones, at that. Trump isn't just 100% id. He is 100% idiot.
You want me to agree that lying is bad? Okay, I agree that lying is bad. I think politicians should be upfront and honest and I don't think that Trump is either of those things. I'm hardly going to defend Trump's character, much less his honesty. I'm actually not defending Trump at all. To the extent I'm defending anyone, it's Trump supporters. The OP asks how anyone could continue to support Trump in spite of his bad actions. My answer is the polarisation of American politics, tribalism, and dislike of the agenda of the hard-left. If someone identifies as a Republican or a conservative, they may well decide to vote for Joe Biden based on the character issue, even if they don't like some of his policies. But for a lot of those people, there's no way in Hell they would vote for Bernie Sanders, and they view the position of the American left as essentially Sanders' version of the Green New Deal. Others are firmly Republican and will simply vote the party line, same as many Democrats.
  #278  
Old 04-22-2020, 08:49 AM
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The explanation is that, in Trump's mind, he is not lying. Trump was raised in the ministry of Norman Vincent Peale. He was taught to only deal with the world as he wants it to be and the world will bend to his will. It's the Power of Positive Thinking. It kind of works for a billionaire with dependent minions.
I agree that Trump believes that reality bends to his will. I agree he doesn't understand the difference between lies and truth.

I disagree that this was Peale indoctrination. Magical thinking is inherent to the human condition. It may be that his family's detachment from reality, combined with oodles and oodles of money to back it up, allowed this part of his mind to run rampant and take over. But Trump is not following any sort of doctrine.
  #279  
Old 04-22-2020, 08:53 AM
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Oh, you mean like when even many conservatives agree with liberals when 82 percent of Americans think wealthy people have too much power and influence in Washington, 82 percent of Americans think economic inequality is a “very big”, 96 percent of Americans—including 96 percent of Republicans—believe money in politics is to blame for the dysfunction of the U.S. political system, 80 percent of Americans think some corporations don’t pay their fair share of taxes, 74 percent of registered voters—including 71 percent of Republicans—support requiring employers to offer paid parental and medical leave, 60 percent of Americans believe “it is the federal government’s responsibility to make sure all Americans have healthcare coverage.”?

https://prospect.org/power/americans-liberal-even-know/

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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
As for still insisting that hatred for Trump is irrational, you really just show that you are willing to ignore a lot of information that does not fit your views.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ilures/609532/

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/13/83279...onavirus_daily
What is irrational is the people who were trying to impeach Trump before he even took office. https://time.com/4641233/donald-trum...ation-impeach/ Note that their effort was supported by the ACLU. I also think it was irrational for the House of Representatives to impeach Trump when there was zero chance he was going to be removed from office. It was political grandstanding and a waste of time. It was also a message to Trump supporters that their vote wouldn't be respected. Which is yet another reason they're rejecting the politics of the left.
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Old 04-22-2020, 09:00 AM
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May be so, QuickSilver. The founders either could not conceive of a world where personal honor and virtue would be irrelevant, or else deluded themselves about it. Their initial writings warned heavily against the influences of political parties, and against unfettered popular democracy. But by the time they were themselves getting elected to offices, they were founding parties and happily enlisting popular support.

It's a government of laws, not of men... but laws don't enforce themselves, it takes people to make them worth anything.



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Originally Posted by Crane View Post
Trump was given enough money to allow him to exist only in his fantasy world that he learned in Peale's church. The backlog of false hoods, that you correctly refer to as lies, are history to Trump. To Trump reality is a lie.

I don't see this as justification for Trump. I am curious why it does not get closer scrutiny.
Because as Sherrerd points out, here in America we presume religious influences (well, some of them...) are privileged from critical scrutiny. And as HMSIrruncible states, it does not necessarily follow, since NVP was not unique about this world view.

There is a phrase I've often used and thought about turning into my signature:

Explanation is NOT justification.

And that applies whether the explanation holds water or not.

Notice these statements:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherrerd
The claim that Trump's conduct somehow is shielded by religion or exemplifies religious principles is, frankly, offensive to actually-religious people.
[...]
There's no way a person of integrity can interpret such naked self-interest as being something holy or pious or even merely 'admirable.'

The pretense that Trump lying to make himself look good is a positive trait, stains the character of the person doing the pretending.
I have no idea where the Hell Sherrerd drew that any of us was saying this was a positive or admirable trait of Trump.

I get it: for many of us here, there is NO other answer than "TRUMP IS EVIL AND STUPID, full stop, end of discussion". Well, he IS. But "full stop end of discussion?", not necessarily.

The President is observed to speak and act like reality is supposed to be whatever's in his head: A world where it is a fact that teen models are willing to let rich men grab them by the p***y; that he is a very stable genius; that foreign leaders love him; only "nasty" women talk back; 3,000 dead in Puerto Rico were made up to make him look bad; tariffs are paid by the country of origin; phone calls and conversations that went disastrously were "perfect"; his inauguration crowd filled the Mall; he never said what you have him on tape saying just last week; etc.

Whether this is plain and simple general assholery, or a deliberate policy to gaslight the world for profit (in which case he is--or his handlers are-- not stupid), or a psychopathology, or a sign of neurological degeneration, or a delusion planted by a pop preacher decades ago that by now he has turned into a cult of himself, it's just as destructive and harmful. But speculating on the "why" is not out of place.

Crane's theory may fail upon further examination since though it may seek to explain something about Donald J. Trump it does not explain the entire apparatus of his administration, campaign, satellites and enablers. There are a whole range of people with a trajectory of until now normal-seeming careers, plus reasonably savvy opportunists, who cannot possibly argue they do not see what's happening, but are enabling it because they figure they might as well become rich or powerful enough to ride out the cataclysm. THERE is where the evil lies.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 04-22-2020 at 09:03 AM.
  #281  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
What is irrational is the people who were trying to impeach Trump before he even took office. https://time.com/4641233/donald-trum...ation-impeach/ Note that their effort was supported by the ACLU.
It's irrational to imply people had no reason to expect Trump would be a manifestly unfit president prior to taking office. The evidence was obvious, experience has borne it out.
  #282  
Old 04-22-2020, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
What is irrational is the people who were trying to impeach Trump before he even took office. https://time.com/4641233/donald-trum...ation-impeach/ Note that their effort was supported by the ACLU. I also think it was irrational for the House of Representatives to impeach Trump when there was zero chance he was going to be removed from office. It was political grandstanding and a waste of time. It was also a message to Trump supporters that their vote wouldn't be respected. Which is yet another reason they're rejecting the politics of the left.
One notices that there was no reply to the points made so those stand then.

So whataboutism you are talking here that does not take away what was noticed early?

Those where civil right groups that already had grievances noted by them about Trump trough the years, they had the freedom to notice what a cad the president was before, but regardless of how important the right wing thought those grandstands were (not really as no impeachment vote was made of those items in congress about that issue as they where people with little government power) the point here is that you still want to ignore that the points made before deal with what the current administration in power is doing. Grossly failing in his promises to the American people and lying about them too.

You are still "nutpicking" here.
  #283  
Old 04-22-2020, 10:44 AM
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I think you're doing a bit of projecting here, and I think you're obviously unfamiliar with my posting history because I'm (among) the first to fairly credit Trump when he says or does something right. For example he's consistently right about interest rates being too high (though for corrupt reasons) and he was correct to engage North Korea without a bunch of ceremonial dick-waving (though, half marks on that, he executed poorly and didn't follow through). He's been decisively right on some other things. These things are difficult to recall because they're fairly minor and easily overwhelmed by the copious stream of criminal bullshit emanating from him and his racket.


You're really in no position to demand that I not respond to your dreck wherever I see it.


I always know I've won when someone resorts to lurid imaginative mind-reading. Thanks for failing, enjoy being whatever miserable thing that entails.
The only thing you’re trying to win is an insults contest, and as usual you’re getting it wrong. Here’s your own words from your first post in this thread:
Quote:
Now, 3 years into the Trump presidency, many Democrats indeed have categorically written off Republicans. But it's not, as you seem to think, because they're Republicans. It's because they've marched in lockstep to all the crazy, cruel, and delusional bullshit Trump has dished out over the past 4 years. They have proven themselves to be bad-faith governing partners because they are uninterested in governing society as a whole. They have shown themselves a pirate crew determined to loot wealth and power in the interest of preserving their own supremacy. This isn't something I'd have said in the pre-Trump era, but it's something they've demonstrated through complicity with the Trump crime racket.
Nothing in there polarising at all right? You’re describing Trump’s policies as “crazy, cruel, and delusional bullshit.” You’re describing Trump’s government as “a pirate crew determined to loot wealth” and his presidency as a “crime racket”. No flagrant antipathy there at all is there?

What’s miserable is your feeble attempt to back off from your position by saying in effect that you’ve supported a few of Trump’s actions. But you can’t even pull it off because you’re instantly back to repeating yourself. And, in my opinion, that dreck is the same output as what comes from the majority of Trump haters that make up the American left. I use the word hate with intent. Although my earlier language may have been flowerly, I don’t believe it’s projection to state that you and much of the left hate Trump and that that hatred spills over to your attitudes towards Trump supporters. Guess how people respond to hatred? It’s not by taking up the positions of the haters.

By the way, if you want to decline to debate a point of discussion, simply politely decline or ignore the request. Dismissing the discussion with insults makes you look like a juvenile coward.
  #284  
Old 04-22-2020, 11:01 AM
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It's irrational to imply people had no reason to expect Trump would be a manifestly unfit president prior to taking office. The evidence was obvious, experience has borne it out.
Short of declaring war, impeachment should be the most serious decision a legislative body can make. It's basically overturning the will of the people as expressed in a democratic election because the executive has committed trangressions so antagonistic to democracy there is no other recourse. Predicting that those transgressions would take place is not irrational. Presupposing them, and using those presuppositions as the basis for a call for impeachment is. Likewise, imposing the impeachment process when there's no chance of removing the president from office and turning the process into partisan grandstanding is demeaning to the legislature. The House of Representatives lowered its own standing when they chose to go forward with impeachment purely on party lines and with no bipartisan agreement of the seriousness of the transgressions. I view pointless self-harm as irrational.
  #285  
Old 04-22-2020, 11:17 AM
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Nothing in there polarising at all right? You’re describing Trump’s policies as “crazy, cruel, and delusional bullshit.” You’re describing Trump’s government as “a pirate crew determined to loot wealth” and his presidency as a “crime racket”. No flagrant antipathy there at all is there?
Bravo. You've discovered that flagrantly awful actions earn flagrant antipathy. Looking forward to your further obvious insights.

Quote:
Although my earlier language may have been flowerly, I don’t believe it’s projection to state that you and much of the left hate Trump and that that hatred spills over to your attitudes towards Trump supporters. Guess how people respond to hatred? It’s not by taking up the positions of the haters.
It's not my job to manage other people's feelings, especially when it's based on imaginary offenses.

Quote:
By the way, if you want to decline to debate a point of discussion, simply politely decline or ignore the request. Dismissing the discussion with insults makes you look like a juvenile coward.
You complain about insults and then immediately follow it with name-calling? This is precious and hilarious.
  #286  
Old 04-22-2020, 11:54 AM
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One notices that there was no reply to the points made so those stand then.

So whataboutism you are talking here that does not take away what was noticed early?

Those where civil right groups that already had grievances noted by them about Trump trough the years, they had the freedom to notice what a cad the president was before, but regardless of how important the right wing thought those grandstands were (not really as no impeachment vote was made of those items in congress about that issue as they where people with little government power) the point here is that you still want to ignore that the points made before deal with what the current administration in power is doing. Grossly failing in his promises to the American people and lying about them too.

You are still "nutpicking" here.
You're calling the ACLU nuts? Okay, but that one's on you. Or am I doing more nutpicking with the previous sentence?

I'm also discussing 2016 politics and you're trying to turn it into 2020 politics. I think in November American voters should objectively assess Trump's performance and judge him on it, and that judgment should see him removed from office via the election. Some voters won't do that objective assessment. On the left, it's because they had their minds made up four years ago and they're aching to avenge their loss. Similarly, on the right, it's because they had their minds made up four years ago and they're unwilling to change. The OP is about that unwillingness to change. Earlier in the thread, there was these posts:
Quote:
Many of the examples you give above are based on bigotry, hatred, xenophobia, or similar phenomena. Cultural grievance, in other words. Which was the motivating factor for Trump support, above everything else.
Quote:
It's clear that trumpism goes deeper than tribalism and deeper than bigotry. It partakes of a cult, in which the leader holds a kind of hypnotic hold over his followers, such that they will truly do anything he tells them to and believe anything he says even if it is the dead opposite of the last thing he said.

There are reasons to support a conservative platform (though they are arguable). There aren't reasons to worship trump. But worship is what he both demands and gets.
My position is that these attitudes are typical of the left. I disagree with them, but that’s not my point. My point is that anyone who supported Trump in 2016, when faced with those attitudes, will simply double-down. In other words, it’s all about tribalism and polarisation in American politics. The polarisation is caused by both sides. But the antipathy of the right towards the left isn’t some evil versus good dichotomy. It’s based on both sides entrenching and antagonising the other.

Was the point of your citing of that Prospect article to refute my point that American politics is polarised? I’m happy to discuss that point so long as it remains in context to the OP. My basic view is that in general, American politics is centre-right and it’s no surprise that Americans support centre-left policies when they’re expressed without political affiliation. I think that Americans generally reject far-left policies, and I think that’s expressed by the Democrats choice of Biden as their presidential candidate instead of Sanders. However, in a discussion of Trump supporters, I’m not sure if it’s useful to discuss centre-right or centre-left positions. I think most of the noise is coming from the far-right and far-left and any reasonableness from the centre is drowned out by the shouting from those two camps.
  #287  
Old 04-22-2020, 12:27 PM
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Short of declaring war, impeachment should be the most serious decision a legislative body can make. It's basically overturning the will of the people as expressed in a democratic election
Let me stop you right there.

First, the expressed will of the people is that 3 million more voted for Hillary Clinton. The reason she isn't currently president is because our presidential elections are not based on the will of the people. If you want to appeal to the will of the people, never forget that the people unambiguously chose Hillary Clinton in 2016.

As an aside, it baffles me that righties want to appeal to "the will of the people" when they are typically the first ones to dismiss the popular vote count by pointing out that the US is a republic, not a democracy. They depend on this situation to maintain power, so it's baffling how easily that fact slips their mind when the topic turns to Trump's impeachment.

Second, if you care to appeal to the will of the people, recall that the House of Representatives is the body of congress that actually does represent the democratic will of the people. In 2018 the people decided that Democrats should control the House rather than Republicans, reflecting that the people rejected Trump and supported his impeachment.

Finally, impeachment does not overturn the result of the election. Had impeachment succeeded, would we hold a new election? No. Would we reinstall Obama until the next election? No. Would Trump's remaining administration be dismissed and replaced with Hillary Clinton and her administration? None of those things would have happened, ergo impeachment does not overturn the previous election.

In short, it's completely indefensible and ludicrous to suggest that impeachment overturns the expressed will of the people, and we can put that silly idea to bed.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 04-22-2020 at 12:27 PM.
  #288  
Old 04-22-2020, 12:33 PM
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Nothing in there polarising at all right? You’re describing Trump’s policies as “crazy, cruel, and delusional bullshit.” You’re describing Trump’s government as “a pirate crew determined to loot wealth” and his presidency as a “crime racket”. No flagrant antipathy there at all is there?
This seems an insurmountable point of difference. I'll try anyway:

The Trump Administration IS IN FACT the most corrupt and incompetent administration in our lifetime. It may prove to be the most corrupt in the history of the US. It is in no way reasonable or moral to expect those who recognize this corruption and incompetence to try to be polite or diplomatic about pointing it out to those who refuse to see it.

I get that there are a large number of Trump supporters who disagree with that view. It does not make them right. And it is not in the interest of the country as a (w)hole to cater to their delusional view of reality. Trump & Co. have demonstrated time and time again that they are not fit to shovel shit from one place to another. The fact that every now and then they manage to get something right in no way absolves them, or obligates us to look the other way on the many ways in which he/they have failed in their capacity to govern.
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  #289  
Old 04-22-2020, 04:17 PM
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You're calling the ACLU nuts? Okay, but that one's on you. Or am I doing more nutpicking with the previous sentence?
Read it again, it was you who called them irrational. The point was that even if you think so, it was a very silly counter point.
  #290  
Old 04-22-2020, 07:26 PM
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I agree that Trump believes that reality bends to his will. I agree he doesn't understand the difference between lies and truth.

I disagree that this was Peale indoctrination. Magical thinking is inherent to the human condition. It may be that his family's detachment from reality, combined with oodles and oodles of money to back it up, allowed this part of his mind to run rampant and take over. But Trump is not following any sort of doctrine.
^This. The claim that Trump's conduct can be explained by supposed adherence to the doctrines of Norman Vincent Peale exists in order to lend Trump a veneer of legitimacy.

In American culture, Peale is generally looked on as a positive figure whose philosophy has been helpful to people; Americans have always gravitated toward optimistic views of life. Associating Trump with that sort of positive view--particularly one connected with Protestant Christianity--is intended to make Trump look better. It's intended to make him look respectable and even "normal."

It isn't working, as the claim is, frankly, not believable. Yes, Trump knew Peale and has claimed to operate according to Peale's principles. Peale's own son is skeptical:

Quote:
... One person who feels Trump has strayed from the fold is his son, John Peale, an ordained minister and self-described Democrat. He has stated the connection with Trump makes him “cringe”: “I don’t respect Mr. Trump very much. I don’t take him very seriously. I regret the publicity of the connection. This is a problem for the Peale family.” In particular, he feels Trump puts too much emphasis on “material success” and “doesn’t recognize the significant character of Dad’s ministry, which is a sincere desire to help people.”

How would Norman feel about Trump today? Obviously, he can’t speak for himself. But there are some undeniable divergences from his teachings. Peale is a link between Richard Nixon and Donald Trump. Of course, those presidents have another acquaintance in common: Roy Cohn. Trump had no illusions about that lacerating lawyer. The Art of the Deal notes: “I don’t kid myself about Roy. He was no Boy Scout. He once told me that he’d spent more than two-thirds of his adult life under indictment on one charge or another. That amazed me.”

It’s the Cohn influence and not the Peale that’s visible when Trump tweets: “When somebody challenges you unfairly, fight back – be brutal, be tough – don’t take it. It is always important to WIN!”

Whereas Norman Vincent Peale mused, “You will soon break the bow if you keep it always stretched.” Also: “Watch your manner of speech if you wish to develop a peaceful state of mind. Start each day by affirming peaceful, contented, and happy attitudes and your days will tend to be pleasant and successful.” ...
https://www.insidehook.com/article/h...itive-thinking

Peale's professed principles include nothing about lying to aggrandize oneself.

The results of Trump lying about things such as his Electoral College or inauguration numbers, are not 'making manifest things he wishes were true.' What those lies accomplished was to confirm to many that Trump is untrustworthy. 'How to be seen as untrustworthy' is not one of Peale's teachings.



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Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
...Notice these statements:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherrerd
The claim that Trump's conduct somehow is shielded by religion or exemplifies religious principles is, frankly, offensive to actually-religious people.
[...]
There's no way a person of integrity can interpret such naked self-interest as being something holy or pious or even merely 'admirable.'

The pretense that Trump lying to make himself look good is a positive trait, stains the character of the person doing the pretending.
I have no idea where the Hell Sherrerd drew that any of us was saying this was a positive or admirable trait of Trump.
It's generally true that those who talk about Trump saying non-factual things because he's (supposedly) following the teachings of Peale, are using that claim as a way of asserting that Trump's conduct is admirable. For example, well-known Trump apologist Scott Adams has said:

Quote:
So while other people were seeing President Trump saying just crazy stuff, what I saw was Norman Vincent Peale, what I saw was affirmations lived out loud.

...My view of reality is a reality that doesn't harden until it happens. Until then, everything is on the table. And even then, sometimes, it changes... So in my reality, the facts are very malleable.

...You're probably wondering why he says these things that don't seem to match what I, and all the other observers are seeing. ... He does it because he is creating the future. You think he is describing the way things are when he says the economy is better than ever before, and jobs are coming back. But the fact checkers say no... The fact checkers are missing the entire show. The show is the president is describing the future by pretending it is the president. That is the power of positive thinking. That is how it is done. It is right out of Norman Vincent Peale's playbook. You just simply think your way into a more positive world.

He's done it with his own career. He got out of these incredible bankruptcies, the scandals during the campaign. This man has escaped more fatal traps that anyone you've ever seen... and he walks through them like he is asbestos in fire...
(my emphasis) https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...ent_peale.html

Adams, of course, was writing before COVID-19. The pandemic is a fact that does not appear to be particularly "malleable."

This highlights one logical fallacy behind this defense of Trump's incessant lying: the idea that fact-free self-aggrandizing claims can bring about solutions to actual problems (such as a lethal virus).

The quoted bit displays another bit of motivated reasoning on Adams' part: the idea that Trump's continuing to appear solvent throughout his lifetime, with his record of losing money hand over fist, is attributable to Trump's supposed adherence to Peale's teachings. Of course the reality is that Trump was able to lose money for decades because he was bankrolled first by his father, and then by Putin. "Positive thinking" had not one single blessed thing to do with it.









Quote:
Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
Crane's theory may fail upon further examination since though it may seek to explain something about Donald J. Trump it does not explain the entire apparatus of his administration, campaign, satellites and enablers. There are a whole range of people with a trajectory of until now normal-seeming careers, plus reasonably savvy opportunists, who cannot possibly argue they do not see what's happening, but are enabling it because they figure they might as well become rich or powerful enough to ride out the cataclysm. THERE is where the evil lies.
(my emphasis)

I agree with you 100%.
  #291  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:14 PM
Sam Stone is offline
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I can understand why Trump's supporters don't care about his lying: Because everything is tribal now, and Trump is the leader of their tribe. In this era we no longer approach such things rationally. We pick our tribes first, based on which group we are more comfortable with, and then we use rationalization, selection bias, confirmation bias, and selective morality to justify why we did so. It's also why no one can change anyone's mind any more: you can't use reason to change an opinion that wasn't formed through reason in the first place.

And yes, both sides do it. Feminists managed to rationalize their way into supporting Bill Cljnton, a serial sexual predator. Small government conservatives rationalized their support for George Bush, a big government moderate (and Democrats rationalized their way into thinking he was the worst human around.) they managed to do the same with Mitt Romney, and are now supporting an old handsy, possibly senile politician who has been accused of sexual assault, forced his female secret service agents to watch him swim naked, and likes to sniff the hair and suck the fingers of strange women. #metoo.

So yes, you are right that Republicans will rationalize support for a leader who doesn't represent their values so long as he works for their goals. Your mistake is in thinking that the other side is any different.

But don't blame me: -I- voted for Kodos.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 04-22-2020 at 09:15 PM.
  #292  
Old 04-23-2020, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
I can understand why Trump's supporters don't care about his lying: Because everything is tribal now, and Trump is the leader of their tribe. In this era we no longer approach such things rationally. We pick our tribes first, based on which group we are more comfortable with, and then we use rationalization, selection bias, confirmation bias, and selective morality to justify why we did so. It's also why no one can change anyone's mind any more: you can't use reason to change an opinion that wasn't formed through reason in the first place.

And yes, both sides do it. Feminists managed to rationalize their way into supporting Bill Cljnton, a serial sexual predator. Small government conservatives rationalized their support for George Bush, a big government moderate (and Democrats rationalized their way into thinking he was the worst human around.) they managed to do the same with Mitt Romney, and are now supporting an old handsy, possibly senile politician who has been accused of sexual assault, forced his female secret service agents to watch him swim naked, and likes to sniff the hair and suck the fingers of strange women. #metoo.

So yes, you are right that Republicans will rationalize support for a leader who doesn't represent their values so long as he works for their goals. Your mistake is in thinking that the other side is any different.

But don't blame me: -I- voted for Kodos.
This both sides crap just doesn't cut it any more. Trump really is different. If you really think he's just the same, just another politician, then we live in such different realities that there's no possibility of mutual understanding.
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Last edited by iiandyiiii; 04-23-2020 at 05:06 AM.
  #293  
Old 04-23-2020, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
I can understand why Trump's supporters don't care about his lying: Because everything is tribal now, and Trump is the leader of their tribe. In this era we no longer approach such things rationally. We pick our tribes first, based on which group we are more comfortable with, and then we use rationalization, selection bias, confirmation bias, and selective morality to justify why we did so.
I would like to note here that political polarization doesn't require two sides to move away from one another. If you have one fairly integrated body politic, and a minority faction emerges and moves away from the other, then you now have de facto polarization even though the majority stayed cohesive and didn't change that much.

I'm not assigning blame here, though you can probably guess where I stand. I just want to reinforce the point that if we want to explain political tribalism and polarization, it doesn't require a "both sides" narrative. That narrative typically only serves one of two purposes. The high purpose is for well-intentioned individuals who want to believe every story has two reasonable sides that can be resolved via compromise and discussion. The low purpose is that the splinter faction wants to deflect responsibility by advancing the idea that they are not the only tribal extremists in the room, that the other side is just as extreme.

I'm sure we're going to do "both sides" for at least the next century, but it deserves some logical treatment when it comes up. If one faction forms a tribe and splinters off from the main body politic, this does not mean "both sides" lost their minds and went tribal.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 04-23-2020 at 07:50 AM.
  #294  
Old 04-23-2020, 08:28 AM
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Obviously Trump is not intelligent. His version of 'Positive Thinking' provides the crutch that enables him to simplify a complex world. He doesn't struggle with logic or noble thoughts. He doesn't agonize over responsibility being commensurate with authority. What he sees at the moment is all there is. Himself and other. His passel of camp followers well know that their only job is to support his current illusion.
  #295  
Old 04-23-2020, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Crane View Post
His passel of camp followers well know that their only job is to support his current illusion.
Well, that and attack everyone who dares point out that the emperor is wearing no clothes.
  #296  
Old 04-23-2020, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane View Post
Obviously Trump is not intelligent. His version of 'Positive Thinking' provides the crutch that enables him to simplify a complex world. He doesn't struggle with logic or noble thoughts. He doesn't agonize over responsibility being commensurate with authority. What he sees at the moment is all there is. Himself and other. His passel of camp followers well know that their only job is to support his current illusion.
Correct. They have given up trying to defend their position and have resorted to surviving the next 10 minutes without being forced to admit they've lost the argument, hoping someone changes the subject.
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  #297  
Old 04-23-2020, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Let me stop you right there.

First, the expressed will of the people is that 3 million more voted for Hillary Clinton.
Let me stop you right there.

The will of the people has been expressed by the people as embodied in the constitution of the United states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ctoral_College

Learn to recognize things you can't change in your life and stop wasting your energy on them. You personally can't change the constitution so stop......

time index 22:04 - 24:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4D4TcgppD8

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
the people rejected Trump and supported his impeachment
Oh, not true, not all democrats and certainly not all people supported impeachment.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/impeachment-polls/
The people voted in the polls basing their decision on false and fabricated information.
Another case of totally wasted energy.
  #298  
Old 04-23-2020, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by burrunderthe saddle View Post
Let me stop you right there.

The will of the people has been expressed by the people as embodied in the constitution of the United states.
You can either say that presidential elections reflect the will of the electoral college, or the democratic will of the people. It cannot be both.

Quote:
time index 22:04 - 24:00
I don't have 2 minutes to sit through what's probably a crap video. How about you invest 2 minutes explaining what you think it says?
  #299  
Old 04-23-2020, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chargerrich View Post
Yes all politicians lie, I get it...
To simply respond to the OP, I personally prefer republican/Trump lies more than democrat/Obama lies
https://freedomoutpost.com/1063-docu...isy-waste-etc/

To elaborate further I abhor democrats viral path to socialism!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCZjtQgSuMg
  #300  
Old 04-23-2020, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
You can either say that presidential elections reflect the will of the electoral college, or the democratic will of the people. It cannot be both.
The constitution is the outcome from the democratic will of the people!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
I don't have 2 minutes to sit through what's probably a crap video. How about you invest 2 minutes explaining what you think it says?
Closed minded much?
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