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  #351  
Old 04-25-2020, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
You are seeing this through your anti-Trump glasses. Let's simplify it.

When you ask someone to "look into" something so you can advise others, are you telling the others to do it and do it now? For anything in life? If you ask your wife to "look into" your finances to see if you can afford to buy a new car for your 16 year old son, are you telling your son to go out and buy a new car?

Give me one example of telling person A to look into something is a positive directive to person B to act on what person A is looking into?

How is this gibberish? It's English.
The President didn't ask anyone to "look into" this. He publicly spit out nonsense gibberish about maybe injecting disinfectant.

This is how a president would ask a doctor on his staff to look into something:

(in a private meeting) -- "Listen, maybe this sounds ridiculous, but if disinfectant kills the virus, is there some way we can get this disinfectant into the body to kill the virus?"

That's not what Trump did, because he's a clown with no self-control. He publicly spouted nonsense about maybe injecting disinfectant, and his fans will take that seriously because they think he's a genius. That's dangerous and indefensible.
  #352  
Old 04-25-2020, 05:31 PM
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Well, UltaVires continues to miss the point I made, one can make a point about Trump not really saying that thing about injecting cleanser (but many groups that do fact checking already reported that he did) but it is clear the intended targets do get the meaning that it is dear to them, and so they get validation from the Cheeto in Chief.

What he misses (and many others too) is that there is a mess of people that ignore the "correction" and continue with dangerous ignorance.


And in context, the excuse Trump came with later is indeed idiotic, there were already reports on where "his idea" likely came from.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...mp-coronavirus
Quote:
The leader of the most prominent group in the US peddling potentially lethal industrial bleach as a “miracle cure” for coronavirus wrote to Donald Trump at the White House this week.

In his letter, Mark Grenon told Trump that chlorine dioxide – a powerful bleach used in industrial processes such as textile manufacturing that can have fatal side-effects when drunk – is “a wonderful detox that can kill 99% of the pathogens in the body”. He added that it “can rid the body of Covid-19”.

A few days after Grenon dispatched his letter, Trump went on national TV at his daily coronavirus briefing at the White House on Thursday and promoted the idea that disinfectant could be used as a treatment for the virus. To the astonishment of medical experts, the US president said that disinfectant “knocks it out in a minute. One minute!”

He went on to say: “Is there a way we can do something, by an injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that.”

Trump did not specify where the idea of using disinfectant as a possible remedy for Covid-19 came from, and the source for his notion remains obscure. But the Guardian has learned that peddlers of chlorine dioxide – industrial bleach – have been making direct approaches to the White House in recent days.

Grenon styles himself as “archbishop” of Genesis II – a Florida-based outfit that claims to be a church but which in fact is the largest producer and distributor of chlorine dioxide bleach as a “miracle cure” in the US. He brands the chemical as MMS, “miracle mineral solution”, and claims fraudulently that it can cure 99% of all illnesses including cancer, malaria, HIV/Aids as well as autism.

Since the start of the pandemic, Genesis II has been marketing MMS as a cure to coronavirus. It advises users, including children, to mix three to six drops of bleach in water and drink it.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 04-25-2020 at 05:32 PM.
  #353  
Old 04-25-2020, 05:55 PM
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There is nothing in that article to suggest that one single person ingested household cleaners as a cure for the virus, then got sick and scared and called poison control. Nothing at all.
Thus disproving your argument that any bleach ingestions/exposures can be laid at the feet of the media.
  #354  
Old 04-25-2020, 06:07 PM
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The article implies a serious charge which it simply does not back up. 30 versus 13 in NYC is not exactly a scientific sample which supports the implication that people are enjoying a mason jar full of Clorox across the nation.
I'll go on record conceding that, although there's a risk someone will listen to Trump on this, it's unlikely anybody will actually do it. (I mean there's always one or two nutballs, but we can write those off ass flukes).

"Hydroxychloroquinine" is something most people haven't heard of, and hence are likely to give the benefit of being a miracle cure if sympathetic authority figures say so. That's why people rushed out to follow Trump's advice and poison themselves with fish tank additives, and are even now disputing the media saying "don't do that".

And this is what gives the lie to what (I think) is your core thesis. You need to concede that if anyone actually treats themselves with household cleaners, it's not because one or two media outlets took some license with ridicule. History shows that Trump supporters believe the media when it agrees with Trump, and they ignore the media when it contradicts Trump. Trump is solely to blame for the harm he causes; the media is only to blame because they should have stopped airing him long ago.

That's the honest debate that you should concede at this point.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 04-25-2020 at 06:08 PM.
  #355  
Old 04-25-2020, 06:17 PM
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The article implies a causal connection between Trump's comments and implies deliberate ingestion of household cleaners. The article utterly fails to support that.
The article supports the claim in the headline. It is not required to support claims that you inferred.
  #356  
Old 04-25-2020, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
If you ask your wife to "look into" your finances to see if you can afford to buy a new car for your 16 year old son, are you telling your son to go out and buy a new car? .
Are "you" the President of the United States?

Are "you" speaking at a nationally-televised briefing on a deadly pandemic currently gripping the globe?

If not, how is this analogy even remotely useful in elucidating the topic of whether Donald Trump should, or should not, say certain things in his press conferences?
  #357  
Old 04-26-2020, 07:09 AM
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The point is not that citizens may be resorting to injecting household cleaners. The point is that the President of the United States, in the midst of a crisis, is publicly babbling childish absurdities.
  #358  
Old 04-26-2020, 07:41 AM
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Illinois tops 40,000 coronavirus cases as more poison control calls reported

Quote:
“Some recent examples include the use of detergent for a sinus rinse and gargling with a bleach and mouthwash mixture in an attempt to kill coronavirus,” Dr. Ezike said.
Of course Illinois went to Clinton by 17 points. Therefore fake news or something.
  #359  
Old 04-26-2020, 08:01 AM
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I stand corrected. Folks really are using household cleaners!
  #360  
Old 04-26-2020, 08:16 AM
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I feel that I understand mad emperors in history a lot better now. Genuinely.
  #361  
Old 04-26-2020, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
And in context, the excuse Trump came with later is indeed idiotic, there were already reports on where "his idea" likely came from.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...mp-coronavirus
We cannot rid ourselves of this congenital idiot soon enough.
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  #362  
Old 04-26-2020, 04:57 PM
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I assume that the following comment is directed at the sarcastic attempt at syllogism we saw upthread:
  • MOST New Yorkers voted for Hillary.
  • Therefore ALL New Yorkers are smart enough not to drink bleach to prevent Covid-19.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
Illinois tops 40,000 coronavirus cases as more poison control calls reported

Of course Illinois went to Clinton by 17 points. Therefore fake news or something.
Trump collected over 2.1 Million votes in Illinois in 2016, behind only California, New York and six other states.
  #363  
Old 04-27-2020, 03:07 PM
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When you tell the medical powers that be to "look into" something, you are asking them to do research and to do trials and/or whatever else medical people normally do when they look into something.
Now that Trump has claimed his remarks were mere "sarcasm", how silly do you feel for bending over backward to find a reasonable explanation for unreasonable and insincere statements? Do you have any thoughts on how you might avoid such embarrassment in the future?

Trump will always hang you out to dry, will always embarrass anyone who grants him the favor of good faith. He never means or understands anything he says. The default position toward his utterances should always be skeptical derision.
  #364  
Old 04-27-2020, 11:51 PM
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The title of this thread is
Would A Conservative and/or Trump Supporter Rationally Explain This?

I'm really grateful that we have a thread where smart Conservatives show up to explain why they'd rather have Trump as President than Clinton or Biden.

But I'm still at a loss. (One conservative no longer with us defended Republican mischief and incompetence because it led to "liberal tears"! But surely that's not the key to Republican thought.)

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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Now that Trump has claimed his remarks were mere "sarcasm", how silly do you feel for bending over backward to find a reasonable explanation for unreasonable and insincere statements? Do you have any thoughts on how you might avoid such embarrassment in the future? ...
This latest episode — Trump suggests injecting Lysol, then claims that the suggestion was a sarcastic prank to get back at reporters — really does deserve some comment by our smart conservatives. Is appointing judges that help disenfranchise Democratic voters worthwhile if the price paid is a President like Trump? Are sarcastic pranks a good way to handle crises?

I think the "defense" for Trump in the latest episode is to claim that his second blathering — the blather that the first blather was a sarcastic prank — was itself a sarcastic prank. But is this really the defense that smart conservatives want to offer?

I await a serious discussion of this latest episode by Trump supporters and others who prefer a Trump Presidency to a Clinton or Biden. Thanks in advance.
  #365  
Old 04-28-2020, 07:20 AM
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The point is not that citizens may be resorting to injecting household cleaners. The point is that the President of the United States, in the midst of a crisis, is publicly babbling childish absurdities.
This. Exactly, this.
  #366  
Old 04-28-2020, 08:47 AM
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Would A Conservative and/or Trump Supporter Rationally Explain This?


I tend to be rather moderate, so let me put on my conservative hat here and respond to the Trump disinfectant mess.

Was Trump speaking out his ass about the disinfectant and UV lighting being a solution to the disease? Of course. He’s not a scientist, or even very smart, and he doesn’t realize it. But the media’s and the left’s reaction to what he said has been just as ridiculous as what he said in the first place.

Here’s what he did not do: he didn’t tell anyone to inject themselves, he didn’t tell anyone to drink bleach, and he didn’t tell anyone to shine light up their ass. But the left is acting like he’s making these recommendations directly to sick people and calling it a cure. The left is acting like Trump’s words are actually dangerous to people because he ASKED A DOCTOR if these were good ideas to investigate. Admittedly they are idiotic ideas, but this is how Trump brainstorms. He thinks it shows leadership to see the process, he is trying to demonstrate transparency and troubleshooting to the American people the best way he is able.

Again, he didn’t tell people to do this stuff, he just had his own ideas of things that MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS should investigate. He is a lay person asking questions to a doctor, his questions should NOT be viewed as medical advice and anyone who follows his hare-brained ideas just because he’s president is worthy of winning a Darwin Award.

Last edited by Sterling Archer; 04-28-2020 at 08:49 AM.
  #367  
Old 04-28-2020, 08:58 AM
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Again, a lot of words there only to ignore that Trump tossed that explanation under the bus. It was all a joke as he said later..

Just like his presidency.
  #368  
Old 04-28-2020, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Sterling Archer View Post
I tend to be rather moderate, so let me put on my conservative hat here and respond to the Trump disinfectant mess.

Was Trump speaking out his ass about the disinfectant and UV lighting being a solution to the disease? Of course. He’s not a scientist, or even very smart, and he doesn’t realize it. But the media’s and the left’s reaction to what he said has been just as ridiculous as what he said in the first place.

Here’s what he did not do: he didn’t tell anyone to inject themselves, he didn’t tell anyone to drink bleach, and he didn’t tell anyone to shine light up their ass. But the left is acting like he’s making these recommendations directly to sick people and calling it a cure. The left is acting like Trump’s words are actually dangerous to people because he ASKED A DOCTOR if these were good ideas to investigate. Admittedly they are idiotic ideas, but this is how Trump brainstorms. He thinks it shows leadership to see the process, he is trying to demonstrate transparency and troubleshooting to the American people the best way he is able.

Again, he didn’t tell people to do this stuff, he just had his own ideas of things that MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS should investigate. He is a lay person asking questions to a doctor, his questions should NOT be viewed as medical advice and anyone who follows his hare-brained ideas just because he’s president is worthy of winning a Darwin Award.
He's not just some guy, he's the President. There are people who take his words as gospel. Because of his stupid and dangerous words, some of those unfortunate folks may have harmed themselves. It's entirely appropriate to criticize him for this and place some of the blame on him.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 04-28-2020 at 09:48 AM.
  #369  
Old 04-28-2020, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Sterling Archer View Post
I tend to be rather moderate, so let me put on my conservative hat here and respond to the Trump disinfectant mess.

Was Trump speaking out his ass about the disinfectant and UV lighting being a solution to the disease? Of course. He’s not a scientist, or even very smart, and he doesn’t realize it. But the media’s and the left’s reaction to what he said has been just as ridiculous as what he said in the first place.

Here’s what he did not do: he didn’t tell anyone to inject themselves, he didn’t tell anyone to drink bleach, and he didn’t tell anyone to shine light up their ass. But the left is acting like he’s making these recommendations directly to sick people and calling it a cure. The left is acting like Trump’s words are actually dangerous to people because he ASKED A DOCTOR if these were good ideas to investigate. Admittedly they are idiotic ideas, but this is how Trump brainstorms. He thinks it shows leadership to see the process, he is trying to demonstrate transparency and troubleshooting to the American people the best way he is able.

Again, he didn’t tell people to do this stuff, he just had his own ideas of things that MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS should investigate. He is a lay person asking questions to a doctor, his questions should NOT be viewed as medical advice and anyone who follows his hare-brained ideas just because he’s president is worthy of winning a Darwin Award.
Do we apply that same standard to everything Trump says, and has said, during his presidency; or is it only a post hoc explanation to be trotted out when says something stupid. When he says he'll build a wall on the border with Mexico, that there was no Russian interference in the last election, or that there was no quid pro quo with Ukraine, does he really mean those things, or is it just brainstorming so we can see the process?

And when does President Trump stop spitballing ideas and actually lead?
  #370  
Old 04-28-2020, 12:00 PM
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And when does President Trump stop spitballing ideas and actually lead?
He doesn't. In his own words, a leader is someone who takes responsibility for anything that happens (or doesn't happen).

Last edited by Skywatcher; 04-28-2020 at 12:00 PM.
  #371  
Old 04-28-2020, 12:09 PM
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Again, he didn’t tell people to do this stuff, he just had his own ideas of things that MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS should investigate. He is a lay person asking questions to a doctor, his questions should NOT be viewed as medical advice ...
It must be embarrassing to go so far out on a limb defending Trump's candid brainstorming, only to have the rug pulled from under you when he declared it was all sarcastic bullshit.

Has this incident taught you to be more skeptical of what Trump says? Will you have more empathy for the people who drank bleach because they gave the President the benefit of the doubt?

After all, you're no different from them. They swallowed bleach, you swallowed his bullshit.
  #372  
Old 04-28-2020, 12:12 PM
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But it might be reasonable at some point to buy a car, depending on your needs and finances. It would never be reasonable to ingest cleaning products.
  #373  
Old 04-28-2020, 03:51 PM
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As Sterling Archer said, the media and left's overreactions to Trump's statements regarding Bill Bryan's briefing are ridiculous. Trump was just showing some optimism after hearing a briefing about killing the virus, and he naively make some remarks about potentially applying what was learned to treatment of patients.

What did Trump mean by "injection"? Did he mean using an IV, intramuscular, or nasal irrigation syringe? Being that Bryan's briefing used term "inject" three times in reference to light, maybe Trump just meant introducing light into he body. Later in the question and answers, Trump did clearly state that he wanted Bryan to look into the effects of light and heat on the infected.

There is plenty of material there to ridicule Trump's ideas and off the cuff brainstorming, but the media felt the need to twist it into a suggestion that American's ingest disinfectants, or chug bleach (as Amy Klobuchar said). Trump never mentioned ingestion or bleach. He did say, "you're going to have to use medical doctors" when mentioning these studies to Bryan. This was not telling citizens to go out and chug bleach, any more than suggesting researchers look into studying blood plasma transfusions is telling people to drink infected blood. There are many types of less toxic of disinfectants he could have meant: light, heat, salt water,... but the media decided he must have meant bleach straight from the Clorox bottle and fabricated the idea that Trump mentioned ingesting it.
  #374  
Old 04-28-2020, 03:56 PM
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He's a complete idiot and said something incredibly stupid (and even dangerous, considering his position). Why bother try defending or rationalizing it? It was colossally stupid.
  #375  
Old 04-28-2020, 05:55 PM
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The head of the FDA is "the media"?
  #376  
Old 04-28-2020, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Manlob View Post
As Sterling Archer said, the media and left's overreactions to Trump's statements regarding Bill Bryan's briefing are ridiculous. Trump was just showing some optimism after hearing a briefing about killing the virus, and he naively make some remarks about potentially applying what was learned to treatment of patients.
... the media felt the need to twist it into a suggestion that American's ingest disinfectants, or chug bleach (as Amy Klobuchar said). Trump never mentioned ingestion or bleach.....
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
He's a complete idiot and said something incredibly stupid (and even dangerous, considering his position). Why bother try defending or rationalizing it? ...
Why? Because a Trump-defender's ONLY recourse is to change the subject to 'IT'S ALL THE MEDIA'S FAULT. The REAL problem is the MEDIA!!!!11!!!'

This tired old bad-faith argument is no more effective now than it ever was.

But it is, quite literally, all they've got.

Last edited by Sherrerd; 04-28-2020 at 07:37 PM.
  #377  
Old 04-28-2020, 09:05 PM
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As Sterling Archer said, the media and left's overreactions to Trump's statements regarding Bill Bryan's briefing are ridiculous. Trump was just showing some optimism after hearing a briefing about killing the virus, and he naively make some remarks about potentially applying what was learned to treatment of patients.
No. He was bullshitting, he got caught, he admitted he was being "sarcastic".

How foolish do you feel for bending over backward to make excuses for a liar who was yanking our chain?
  #378  
Old 04-28-2020, 11:16 PM
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He's not just some guy, he's the President. There are people who take his words as gospel. Because of his stupid and dangerous words, some of those unfortunate folks may have harmed themselves. It's entirely appropriate to criticize him for this and place some of the blame on him.


And he's not just any president, he's the president who insists that he's the smartest guy ever, who knows more about any topic than the experts, the man who is always having people ask him, "Sir, how do you know so much about (things)?" And his followers believe this. Hook, line and sinker. Never before have we had a president of the United States who insists that he alone, knows what needs to be done.

He's created a cult of idiots who believe everything he says, and who are too stupid to parse out the subtleties of suggestions, proposals, hypotheticals, "sarcasm", or any other involved conversational style. They hear "inject disinfectant", and that's the only thing they take away from the discussion. They think their very stable genius told them it's a cure, and that's that.
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  #379  
Old 04-28-2020, 11:37 PM
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No. He was bullshitting, he got caught, he admitted he was being "sarcastic".
Now the Trump supporters have to rationally explain the President being sarcastic during a briefing about a pandemic that has claimed almost 60,000 American lives.
  #380  
Old 04-29-2020, 01:48 AM
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As Sterling Archer said, the media and left's overreactions to Trump's statements regarding Bill Bryan's briefing are ridiculous. Trump was just showing some optimism after hearing a briefing about killing the virus, and he naively make some remarks about potentially applying what was learned to treatment of patients.

What did Trump mean by "injection"? ...
Morons say moronic things. No problem. Many American voters are effectively on record as saying they want leaders at the same intellectual level as themselves. Happy voters. Yippee!

But you've completely ignored the 2nd Trump-chat, the chat that changed this from business-as-usual blather to a huge scandal. Don't you read the news? Or even this thread?

The real travesty — frightening in what it tells us about Trump's character and competence — came the NEXT day, the day AFTER the chat about injecting disinfectants. That was when Trump announced that the disinfectant-injection chat was sarcastic, a prank to get back at reporters. Did you miss that part of the story, Manlob?

This has nothing to do with a layman showing ignorance of science. It is a leader publicly confessing that his attention is not on the crisis, but on pranking reporters ... and pranking the nation. What this tells us about Trump makes the disinfectant-injection chat irrelevant, a 2 on a scale of 1-to-100 where 99 is what Trump told us the NEXT day.

Obviously Trump was lying about the "sarcastic prank." But what does that tell us? That lie was itself sort of a sarcastic prank. Like the fake game-show host he once was, Trump is concerned only with himself. A crisis killing a huge number of Americans is just backdrop for his sociopathic preening. Do you disagree?

The shameful behavior of this man in talking about pranking reporters should shock us all. Focus on whether or not the original disinfectant-injection chat was moronic, is misplaced.

Last edited by septimus; 04-29-2020 at 01:51 AM.
  #381  
Old 04-29-2020, 09:36 AM
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Most of our local folk remedies use garlic, jalapeno and desert plants. But, some Curanderas claim that dog shit is a magic ingredient.

Please don't tell Trump!

Last edited by Crane; 04-29-2020 at 09:37 AM.
  #382  
Old 04-29-2020, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
It must be embarrassing to go so far out on a limb defending Trump's candid brainstorming, only to have the rug pulled from under you when he declared it was all sarcastic bullshit.

Has this incident taught you to be more skeptical of what Trump says? Will you have more empathy for the people who drank bleach because they gave the President the benefit of the doubt?

After all, you're no different from them. They swallowed bleach, you swallowed his bullshit.

Heh you must have missed the part about my “conservative hat”... this was a devil’s advocate type post
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