Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 04-13-2020, 03:54 AM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 25,526
It's like how I can't stand stealth missions that you have to restart if you're spotted. Because I WILL be spotted; there's absolutely no doubt that at some point I'll slip up and be discovered. As far as I'm concerned, stealth is what happens before the action starts.
  #52  
Old 04-13-2020, 05:21 AM
not what you'd expect is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,035
I played it ages ago and actually finished it. I remember enjoying it so I bought the Nintendo Switch version recently and I can't get past the very first section.
  #53  
Old 04-13-2020, 10:06 AM
MichaelEmouse's Avatar
MichaelEmouse is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
That's a distinction without a difference for some of us.

For me, the reality is that I can only be relied on to press the right button about 90% of the time. It's usually not a matter of not seeing what I need to do--just a matter of getting my fingers to input the right response.

With enough practice, I can increase this fraction slightly, though it's not that I'm actually getting better at the hand-eye coordination. It's just that I'm learning the pattern and getting enough of a head start that I can be a little more diligent at the inputs.

One consequence here is that when I beat the boss or whatever, it's always due to luck. It's not that I haven't improved at all--it's just that I'm still making mistakes (or potential mistakes) all over the place, and I just keep trying until my mistakes are unimportant or just few enough that I don't die.

And so actually beating the boss is immensely unsatisfying. It's like some slot machine where I theoretically have control over the wheels but the timing is so tight that it might as well be completely random. Increasing my odds a tiny bit through practice doesn't change this feeling.

I suspect that an easy mode isn't going to make the game enjoyable for me. The unforgiving nature is central to the game. I like hard games, but hard and unforgiving are not the same thing.

I wonder how much overlap there is between Dark Souls, Starcraft and Counterstrike players. They all seem to involve quick reflexes and rote memorization built through long practice. Minimize the delay between sensory input and motor output. That's one way for something to be hard.

Hard can also be like Kerbal Space Program where it can take 10 hours to even make it to orbit or Oxygen Not Included. But that doesn't at all rely on quick reflexes and rote memorization. There, it's more about throughput.
  #54  
Old 04-13-2020, 10:45 AM
orcenio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NCR
Posts: 2,466
Dark Souls isn't a game series that requires fast twitchy reflexes, most of the time during a skirmish you are waiting for your opponent to commit to an action so you can counter-respond. All you need to win an engagement is strategic positioning with well timed blocking/dodging and well timed attacks/ripostes.

Think of an old samurai duel from any Kurosawa film. Sparring involves periods of high-tension inaction/waiting, followed by crucial acts of slight deceptions in movement, a commitment to an attack, and finally/hopefully a well timed/placed counter to the attack. It really tests your patience and tolerance to stress.

The layers of deceptions can run pretty deep if you are PvPing too (playing against a computer algorithm is much more simple though).

Last edited by orcenio; 04-13-2020 at 10:48 AM.
  #55  
Old 04-13-2020, 11:17 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 19,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by orcenio View Post
Dark Souls isn't a game series that requires fast twitchy reflexes
Eh, debatable - it's true for 1 and 2 ; but IMO 3 was influenced quite a bit by Bloodbourne's more aggressive, twitchy gameplay. It's not *quite* Bayonetta-level yet ; but timing windows & reactivity have clearly tightened compared to DS1's ponderous and weighty "pressing the attack button is merely filing the first bit of paperwork that'll eventually allow you to swing your sword" combat style

(with apologies to Hbomb, whose admirable image I'm probably mangling)
  #56  
Old 04-13-2020, 11:20 AM
Dark Sponge's Avatar
Dark Sponge is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by orcenio View Post
...Those of us who are curious/attentive, discover bits of story for ourselves and that "legwork" (or mild internet sleuthing) makes the story so deliciously intriguing -like finding thematic connections in a loved book.
So true. The story of the fair lady touched my heart every playthrough. The other firekeepers were fair game but never her. I may have been invading as a Darkwraith but at heart I was always a Servant of Chaos.

Last edited by Dark Sponge; 04-13-2020 at 11:24 AM.
  #57  
Old 04-13-2020, 11:52 AM
orcenio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NCR
Posts: 2,466
Should Games Like Dark Souls Have Difficulty Settings? This escapist video popped up on my youtube feed a few minutes ago, not a very well done debate but seems relevant.

Apparently there's a better discussion here.

Last edited by orcenio; 04-13-2020 at 11:57 AM.
  #58  
Old 04-13-2020, 03:06 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
They all seem to involve quick reflexes and rote memorization built through long practice. Minimize the delay between sensory input and motor output. That's one way for something to be hard.
From little that I've seen of DS, I'd agree with orcenio--it's less twitchy and more about hitting the right timing and responding in the right way.

This doesn't help me at all, though. I've was playing a bit of Animal Crossing over the weekend, and there's a little fishing minigame. There's one button you have to press when you see the right kind of splash. You hear and feel the splash too. You just have to press that one button in a really sloppy timing window, maybe half a second after you see the splash.

At best, I can do that 96, 97% of the time. There's just something about my nerve wiring that prevents me from doing better. There are in-game bonuses for getting N catches in a row. 10 was no problem and I just barely managed 50. But 100 or more? Never gonna happen.

I can do a lot of stuff in KSP that some would consider hard--for instance, it's no problem for me to fly a manned mission to the Mun and then Minmus, by hand (no maneuver planner, etc.) and return them safely to Kerbin. But none of the timing requirements are less than a few seconds, and everything has minutes of lead-in, so you always know exactly what to expect. It has a working pause, too.
  #59  
Old 04-14-2020, 06:27 PM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 37,554
I have a slightly different way of looking at it (though the end result is about the same).I just see grinding as unfun, whether it is grinding to level up to be able to play something, or if it's just playing over and over to "level up" as a player.

It's not that you can't have a boss that takes a bit to figure out the strategy to beat. It's about having to play the same thing over and over to get better.

Dark Souls in theory avoids this, but, in practice, the amount of times you need to retry feels like grinding, since so much time is spend redoing the same thing.

The games that I think do it correctly just have so much content that you want to play again. Binding of Isaac isn't a game that I play a lot, but I do enjoy it when I do, because each retry is something different. I do wish it could be a bit easier, so I could get a feeling of accomplishment more often, but at least I enjoy going back every once in a while.
  #60  
Old 04-25-2020, 03:33 AM
jasonlee3071 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: North America
Posts: 26
I agree with you on this one. Which is why I never did purchase any of the DArk Souls games.
The only way I could accept dying over/over in a game is if it was a puzzle game where you have to work your way through a situation by using your wits or brains.
Learning by trial/error.
But then it's no longer a mere action/adventure game but a puzzle game.
__________________
I]Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school.[[/I]

Albert Einstein
  #61  
Old 04-25-2020, 06:04 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,928
DS is a landmark in gaming - any genre, any platform, it was innovative and has been hugely influential. Transcends its genre in a way few titles are able to do.
A surprising aspect to this, though, for a game with elite status in level design, is that the back third of the game is actually pretty bad. Two of the late levels (Demon Ruins and Izalith) are legit unfinished - the developers clearly had a rush on. The whole rep of the game rests on the first half.

I've been playing a lot of DS2 recently - the black sheep of the franchise, and starting that game is difficult for all the wrong reasons. Miyazaki stepped back from this one and it's clear the developers didn't understand the difference between hard and Dark Souls hard. Having played through it I think it's a great game in its own way (although shame about the bosses), but that is a fierce learning curve at the start - started it with 100s of hours under the belt on 1 and 3 and still found the early levels to be intensely aggravating. The OP's criticism of DS does not hold water, as has been clarified up thread, but it does to an extent for the sequel.

Invaded a guy in Sanctum City last night, easy work as he was swinging an ultra round like a naif. Messaged me a wave of invective so I offered to lay my sign down and help him through the level (facetiously, I admit, but he was pretty abusive). He ended up almost crying to me how getting invaded in DS2 was so unfair as he just wanted to enjoy his PvE game. Can see his point - hollowing doesn't protect you from the Red Game in DS2 like it does in the other titles.

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 04-25-2020 at 06:05 AM.
  #62  
Old 04-25-2020, 06:10 AM
Half Man Half Wit's Avatar
Half Man Half Wit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
That's why these games almost always finish up their tutorial sections with a fight against an "undefeatable" boss that one-hit kills you. It's also why once you've become good at the games, figured out the action economy and so on and start the game over, that "undefeatable" boss has become a piece of cake. Sure, he'll still kill you in one hit or two - but at this point he won't ever hit you, because you've now learned when and where to dodge (not just *against this particular boss*, just how it works in general), how far your weapon can swing & how fast etc...)
Congratulations : you've gitten gud. Enjoy the feeling. It gets addictive.
Except, well, to me... It doesn't. Perhaps, to get why I'm feeling this way (and I get that you feel differently, and that's perfectly valid), imagine watching a movie where, time and again, the protagonist dies, the film rewinds, and you get to sit to the previous couple of minutes again, till they get to the same point, die again, and so on.

First of all, it's just incredibly tedious. Boring. Repetitive. I, at least, would much rather watch the story where everything unfolds as if the final rewind had been the first run---a coherent narrative composed of the best-effort scenes, so to speak. This is the sort of thing I construct in my mind when playing most games. For instance, right now, I'm playing Just Cause 4, because it was free recently on the Epic store. Every now and then, I screw up, and faceplant into the terrain and die. This doesn't bother me at all: it's clear that this wouldn't have happened in the in-game reality, so to speak. There's still a consistent, unbroken narrative where Rico never jumps out of a helicopter, miscalculates the distance, and breaks his neck crashing into the foliage.

That narrative never really exists in a soulslike. There isn't---at least not to me---a way to suspend disbelief such as to pretend that the protagonist didn't actually die a gazillion of times, because to me, there's no realistic way that I could've gotten it right the first time, if I had just paid better attention, reacted quicker, whatever. Dying's a necessity, or feels like one, and that means the sort of narrative I look for in a game flat-out doesn't exist.

Now, of course, the Dark Souls franchise gets this better than other games like it, in that there's an in-game narrative around dying again and again. I do appreciate that---but then, it's still a game with a lot of boring repetition, and I, at least, never found myself caring enough about the resulting narrative to really bother engaging with it.

Other games in this vein then don't even bother with that. Darksiders III just has you inexplicably spawning again where you last met the demon merchant, with all the laboriously killed monsters back in place. With Jedi: Fallen Order, you get back up at the last place you meditated. In both games, it's simply an asshole mechanic, to pad their length and inflate their difficulty. A quicksave option, a little less reliance on overpowered boss enemies and gotcha moments wouldn't have spoiled anything regarding immersion, but would've made constructing a narrative much easier.

Sure. You couldn't brag online about how you just finished the game on ultra-nightmare difficulty without dying, but thought it was a little too easy. But nobody cares about people who think that's anything to brag about anyway.

Last edited by Half Man Half Wit; 04-25-2020 at 06:12 AM.
  #63  
Old 04-25-2020, 12:30 PM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 25,526
Everyone also says how these games need to be played a second time to really enjoy them, because only then are you good enough. But why would I play a game a second time if I didn't enjoy it the first time? I'd rather just play a game that's fun from the beginning.
  #64  
Old 04-25-2020, 02:44 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Man Half Wit View Post
Except, well, to me... It doesn't. Perhaps, to get why I'm feeling this way (and I get that you feel differently, and that's perfectly valid), imagine watching a movie where, time and again, the protagonist dies, the film rewinds, and you get to sit to the previous couple of minutes again, till they get to the same point, die again, and so on.
Edge of Tomorrow was pretty much that and a very decent movie. Groundhog Day too, for that matter.

But I agree that this "get gud" feeling does absolutely nothing for me. Certainly not in that stupid trope that Kobal2 mentions, because I have no idea if the game is cheating or not (and in my experience, it mostly is cheating: the unkillable monster is in fact unkillable). There was one of these at the beginning of Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice and it almost put me off the game right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
Invaded a guy in Sanctum City last night, easy work as he was swinging an ultra round like a naif. Messaged me a wave of invective so I offered to lay my sign down and help him through the level (facetiously, I admit, but he was pretty abusive). He ended up almost crying to me how getting invaded in DS2 was so unfair as he just wanted to enjoy his PvE game. Can see his point - hollowing doesn't protect you from the Red Game in DS2 like it does in the other titles.
Amazing that it took you hundreds of hours to figure out that for some players, getting invaded makes the game less fun. Here's some newbie, just trying to make it through the story, and you come in with hundreds of hours under your belt and kick his ass. You seemed to get some bizarre delight from doing so, too.
  #65  
Old 04-25-2020, 04:38 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post


Amazing that it took you hundreds of hours to figure out that for some players, getting invaded makes the game less fun. Here's some newbie, just trying to make it through the story, and you come in with hundreds of hours under your belt and kick his ass. You seemed to get some bizarre delight from doing so, too.
Nah, I take delight in spanking ganks and beating good players, and I take responsibility for waxing noobs trying to play DS on easy-mode - playing human so they can summon friends to help them through the level. It's the responsibility of all experienced players to uphold standards in the Burgh, IMHO, and play the Red Game every once in a while.

This was something different, I was genuinely surprised when he told me he was hollow as I'd forgotten DS2 allowed those invasions - I've never encountered it before, and I sympathise with his view. The game should allow you to get your head down and enjoy PvE without threat of invasion if that's your style.

[It actually does allow this, but it means burning a valuable consumable - DS2 is very quiet now with few invasions, so he probably felt it wasn't worth doing as no one will invade. An example of a game mechanic that has lost relevance as the player population dwindles].
  #66  
Old 04-25-2020, 05:26 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,548
Ahh, the ol' "people aren't playing the game the way I think they should be playing it, and it's my job to make them miserable until they do" schtick. So enticing.
  #67  
Old 04-25-2020, 05:46 PM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 25,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Edge of Tomorrow was pretty much that and a very decent movie. Groundhog Day too, for that matter.
Groundhog Day is an interesting example, because it actually exemplifies both of the approaches people are describing in this thread. What do I mean? The first way Bill Murray tries to "win the game" is through rote memorization, which is how us haters are describing DS-like games; the second way is by improving his skills. In the first method, he fails, and in the second, he succeeds, but what's important is that we barely see him grinding, because otherwise the movie would be boring as hell.
  #68  
Old 04-26-2020, 01:46 AM
Half Man Half Wit's Avatar
Half Man Half Wit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Edge of Tomorrow was pretty much that and a very decent movie. Groundhog Day too, for that matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
Groundhog Day is an interesting example, because it actually exemplifies both of the approaches people are describing in this thread. What do I mean? The first way Bill Murray tries to "win the game" is through rote memorization, which is how us haters are describing DS-like games; the second way is by improving his skills. In the first method, he fails, and in the second, he succeeds, but what's important is that we barely see him grinding, because otherwise the movie would be boring as hell.
Yes. Both Groundhog Day and Edge of Tomorrow are examples where the repetition is justified by the narrative, but the boring, aggravating bits are cut out, or at best, only hinted at, for either dramatic or comedic effect. In Dark Souls, there may be a dramatic justification for the repetition, but that doesn't mean the repetition itself is any less boring.
  #69  
Old 04-26-2020, 06:56 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 19,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
Everyone also says how these games need to be played a second time to really enjoy them, because only then are you good enough. But why would I play a game a second time if I didn't enjoy it the first time? I'd rather just play a game that's fun from the beginning.
Oh that's not what I'm saying - the games are also definitely great the first time ; for the rush of adrenaline when your forehead finally dislodges that one brick and you see the light on the other side of the wall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Man Half Wit
That narrative never really exists in a soulslike. There isn't---at least not to me---a way to suspend disbelief such as to pretend that the protagonist didn't actually die a gazillion of times, because to me, there's no realistic way that I could've gotten it right the first time, if I had just paid better attention, reacted quicker, whatever. Dying's a necessity, or feels like one, and that means the sort of narrative I look for in a game flat-out doesn't exist.
I mean, in DS (DS1 at least, the others are more hazy about it) you're explicitly an Undead due to some sort of curse (presumably brought onto the world by the shit the gods of the world have done to become gods) and branded with the Dark Sign, which is a circle on your chest that means you'll never, ever die and are doomed to rise again, forever (and, judging by the game's NPCs, losing a little bit of your self/mind/sanity every time until you go Hollow, which is what the mindless husks of decayed flesh that roam the world are called).
So, when you die, you... well, die. It's not a save/reload, it's not "you could have done it and let's pretend the narrative is uninterrupted from the protag's PoV", you died, period. Ceased to be, but got kicked out of the choir invisible because you couldn't sustain an E flat. Also all those husks you killed, they died... and then they came back because they're cursed, same as you. Only the bosses are spared from the respawn - because they're the aforementioned gods, or were otherwise actually alive.

There's even a point in the game where you *have* to die in order to progress, in a way instrumentalizing your own death (although not quite to the point The Nameless One can do so in Planescape:Torment).

So I'm not sure what suspension of disbelief is missing, plotwise ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove
But I agree that this "get gud" feeling does absolutely nothing for me. Certainly not in that stupid trope that Kobal2 mentions, because I have no idea if the game is cheating or not (and in my experience, it mostly is cheating: the unkillable monster is in fact unkillable).
Nothing's unkillable in DS - wait, I lie, I'm not sure you can kill the cat from the forest covenant ? Other than that, there are no tricks. Some enemies you need a Special Thing to be able to kill (for good), but that's it.
  #70  
Old 04-26-2020, 06:58 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 19,438
Oh, right, there is also *that* boss, the one that is supposed to kill you (and you can't touch him) that one time. But it's a one shot fuck you move, and you get to avenge yourself.
  #71  
Old 04-26-2020, 09:23 AM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 25,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Oh that's not what I'm saying - the games are also definitely great the first time ; for the rush of adrenaline when your forehead finally dislodges that one brick and you see the light on the other side of the wall
That's called a concussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
I mean, in DS (DS1 at least, the others are more hazy about it) you're explicitly an Undead due to some sort of curse (presumably brought onto the world by the shit the gods of the world have done to become gods) and branded with the Dark Sign, which is a circle on your chest that means you'll never, ever die and are doomed to rise again, forever (and, judging by the game's NPCs, losing a little bit of your self/mind/sanity every time until you go Hollow, which is what the mindless husks of decayed flesh that roam the world are called).
So, when you die, you... well, die. It's not a save/reload, it's not "you could have done it and let's pretend the narrative is uninterrupted from the protag's PoV", you died, period. Ceased to be, but got kicked out of the choir invisible because you couldn't sustain an E flat. Also all those husks you killed, they died... and then they came back because they're cursed, same as you. Only the bosses are spared from the respawn - because they're the aforementioned gods, or were otherwise actually alive.
So basically, your character is a loser.
  #72  
Old 04-26-2020, 11:52 AM
Half Man Half Wit's Avatar
Half Man Half Wit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
I mean, in DS (DS1 at least, the others are more hazy about it) you're explicitly an Undead due to some sort of curse (presumably brought onto the world by the shit the gods of the world have done to become gods) and branded with the Dark Sign, which is a circle on your chest that means you'll never, ever die and are doomed to rise again, forever (and, judging by the game's NPCs, losing a little bit of your self/mind/sanity every time until you go Hollow, which is what the mindless husks of decayed flesh that roam the world are called).
So, when you die, you... well, die. It's not a save/reload, it's not "you could have done it and let's pretend the narrative is uninterrupted from the protag's PoV", you died, period. Ceased to be, but got kicked out of the choir invisible because you couldn't sustain an E flat. Also all those husks you killed, they died... and then they came back because they're cursed, same as you. Only the bosses are spared from the respawn - because they're the aforementioned gods, or were otherwise actually alive.
Yes, I said that Dark Souls does have a narrative reason for the coming back again and again thing; still, it feels (or felt to me) mostly like window-dressing. After all, you could've had the same narrative effect without forcing you to grind again through the last ten minutes of goons you've cleared out thirteen times before. Just assume you've gone through that, and get to the point where you failed---that's what e. g. Edge of Tomorrow does: you're not shown everything up to the point where Tom Cruise died again and again, because there'd be no point to showing it. So why does Dark Souls insist on shoving the same stretch of game down my throat again and again? I've been there, done that; hence, it takes me out of the narrative.
  #73  
Old 04-26-2020, 01:28 PM
furryman's Avatar
furryman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Collinwood, Collinsport
Posts: 4,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atamasama View Post
I think the company will survive that loss.
On the other hand maybe if enough gamers object to ridiculously hard games they might stop making them.
  #74  
Old 04-26-2020, 01:38 PM
Telperion's Avatar
Telperion is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by furryman View Post
On the other hand maybe if enough gamers object to ridiculously hard games they might stop making them.
Dark Souls has sold millions of copies, which makes it an objective success by any measure. How bloody hard is it to grasp that other people can enjoy something you don't?
  #75  
Old 04-26-2020, 02:56 PM
orcenio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NCR
Posts: 2,466
I'll add that there are numerous ways to make Dark souls easier without cheating, nor grinding.

One can use the (now iconic) multiplayer mechanic to summon help -praise the sun- from NPCs or other PCs. There are items that drastically improve your base stats. If you do not like getting invaded you can play while hollowed OR just play in offline mode. You can cheese your way through the entire game using only ranged attacks at a safe distance.

While this is a strategic-fighting focused game, it is versatile enough to offer countless ways to progress. It is challenging, but not limiting. There's no brick wall, where if you can't do the exact button prompts at the right time you won't advance, a la some sort of fantasy themed Dance Dance Revolution.

It is also not everyone's cup of tea, but it's achievements are near unmatched in both influence and success.

Last edited by orcenio; 04-26-2020 at 02:56 PM.
  #76  
Old 04-26-2020, 10:09 PM
Palooka is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 2,610
Back in the day, Team NINJA responded to criticism about the difficulty of their Ninja Gaiden remake by adding an exploration mode to Ninja Gaiden Black. Probably would've been a nice thing for From to do. It's dumb that such a topic is basically verboten in its community because of the idea that the difficulty is what makes Dark Souls special.

It ain't. Difficult action games are a dime a dozen. There are also much harder games out there, like Ikaruga.
  #77  
Old 04-27-2020, 01:52 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 19,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
That's called a concussion.
The two are so often indistinguishable.

What ?

Quote:
So basically, your character is a loser.
Oh yeah. But then again, who ain't ?
  #78  
Old 04-27-2020, 04:00 AM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 25,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Oh yeah. But then again, who ain't ?
Not to be maudlin, but isn't pretending you aren't a loser the whole point of playing video games?
  #79  
Old 04-27-2020, 06:56 AM
Telperion's Avatar
Telperion is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
Not to be maudlin, but isn't pretending you aren't a loser the whole point of playing video games?
I guess some people see games as an opportunity for growth and rising to a challenge rather than a power fantasy. I'm not saying either is wrong, just that people are different and games probably need to be too. Personally I'm not into survival games. The whole gameplay loop of picking up sticks to build an axe so you can chop down trees and build a better axe...I'm just not feeling it. But I don't think they need to change those games to conform to my taste, or that they should stop making them. There are literally tens of thousands of games out there, I'll just play something else.

To be honest, I don't even have the time to play all the games I am interested in, so it seems odd to me that people put so much effort into harping on a game they don't like when there are so many alternatives. To me that's a bit like complaining that rom-coms don't have enough shootouts and car chases. I think everyone agrees that Dark Souls isn't a game for everybody, but some people like the idea of a bleak, undead world where even the ground can kill you and every step of progress is a victory in itself. They are who Dark Souls was made for.
  #80  
Old 04-27-2020, 07:41 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palooka View Post
Back in the day, Team NINJA responded to criticism about the difficulty of their Ninja Gaiden remake by adding an exploration mode to Ninja Gaiden Black. Probably would've been a nice thing for From to do. It's dumb that such a topic is basically verboten in its community because of the idea that the difficulty is what makes Dark Souls special.

It ain't. Difficult action games are a dime a dozen. There are also much harder games out there, like Ikaruga.
No one in the DS community thinks the game is difficult, by definition. If you play and like the game that much to consider yourself part of the community then you no longer find it difficult. But we (in the community) do all think it is special so why is that? It's an interesting and pretty deep question that gets to the heart of level design in gaming, immersion, story, lore - everything. Some great posts above articulating these ideas, plus a couple of good rebuttals.

What it is not about, though, is simple difficulty. DS2 suffered from this - we've got a good level here with these three mobs. But because it's Dark Souls let's make it 6 mobs becasue that's harder. That is not Dark Souls - DS2 is a great game but in a generic way, doesn't have the DS magic.

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 04-27-2020 at 07:43 AM.
  #81  
Old 04-27-2020, 08:12 AM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 37,554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
Nah, I take delight in spanking ganks and beating good players, and I take responsibility for waxing noobs trying to play DS on easy-mode - playing human so they can summon friends to help them through the level. It's the responsibility of all experienced players to uphold standards in the Burgh, IMHO, and play the Red Game every once in a while.
That definitely does not make the game look good, if this is a widespread belief among the players. Why the hell would it be up to you to force people to play the game the way you want them to? If it's in the game, the devs put it there for a reason, and it's not up to you to say it's "wrong."

I won't object to people liking a type of game I don't like or for enjoying things that are hard and frustrating. But I do object to what amounts to bullying. What you described is just bigger, stronger players beating up on the smaller, weaker ones to "keep them in line." And, outside the game world, that is called bullying.

PvP is not about dominating other people, pushing your will onto others. It's just an additional challenge.

And, on preview: Everyone who I've ever met who plays Dark Souls says it is hard. Hell, you just were arguing that it's okay for you to attack other players because they were playing it on "easy mode." You actively make the game harder for people--sure seems like you think the difficulty is important enough to even mistreat people.
  #82  
Old 04-27-2020, 08:38 AM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 37,554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telperion View Post
To be honest, I don't even have the time to play all the games I am interested in, so it seems odd to me that people put so much effort into harping on a game they don't like when there are so many alternatives. To me that's a bit like complaining that rom-coms don't have enough shootouts and car chases. I think everyone agrees that Dark Souls isn't a game for everybody, but some people like the idea of a bleak, undead world where even the ground can kill you and every step of progress is a victory in itself. They are who Dark Souls was made for.
Because it's an interesting discussion. The OP tried playing the game, got frustrated, and thought it might make for an interesting topic to discuss. And the number of replies suggests it has.

It's not like this thread is just some whinefest about the game. It's people discussing what fundamentally makes them not like this type of game--and then others saying what fundamentally appeals to them about the game.

I know I had never before even considered the idea that people found the game to break their suspension of disbelief as a problem. I just always assumed that it was people like me who don't like the repetition and frustration.

I even wonder if the people who enjoy the game actually have to do as much repetition. Maybe their frustration is lower because they're better at playing these types of games--that they mesh well with their brains. Or that maybe they've played so many more games than I have that they've built up skill.

And I never would have imagined that people in the online game were going around attacking noobs and forcing them to play in "hard" mode. I mean, that's just griefing. They literally have no chance of beating them. I figured people who like challenge would, you know, do things that are challenging, not stepping on the noobs.

I learned a lot from this thread, even though I normally barely even think about the Dark Souls games. The game that I lament being so hard is Cuphead. The whole concept is extremely cool, but I can't dodge that much stuff in boss fights, even with an easy mode.
  #83  
Old 04-27-2020, 09:48 AM
Palooka is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 2,610
Getting invaded by a twink build is the least of your problems. If you're unlucky, you get invaded by someone who corrupts your character and gets your save game banned, destroying all progress unless you had a backup.
  #84  
Old 04-27-2020, 10:09 AM
Half Man Half Wit's Avatar
Half Man Half Wit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telperion View Post
I guess some people see games as an opportunity for growth and rising to a challenge rather than a power fantasy.
I think, to me, a game is mostly about an experience---a narrative, a setting, a world, a bit of escapism, and yes, when crushing faceless minions of some dark whatever, a bit about power. The idea of gaming for a challenge is, to me, a bit like reading a novel for a challenge, or watching a movie for a challenge---it's just not the right category.

Perhaps a part of that is that I play pretty much exclusively single-player. Challenge, to the extent that this applies to the medium at all (to me), is something I could see myself enjoying against others---like the challenge of getting better at chess to beat opponents I couldn't beat before, and likewise for sports and such (not that I'm terribly much of a sports person, but I get the concept in a way I don't with video games). Even in these settings, I'm not hugely competitive, though.

So maybe the problem is just that, to me, games belong more to the category of novels, films, plays and the like---things to be experienced and enjoyed---than they do to the category of sports and such---things to improve at, beat others, and so on.

Quote:
But I don't think they need to change those games to conform to my taste, or that they should stop making them. There are literally tens of thousands of games out there, I'll just play something else.
I'm also not saying that games ought to change to better accommodate my own tastes. I do think that there are certain games that would've benefited from not incorporating a Dark Souls-like mechanic, or making it optional---mostly, the aforementioned Jedi: Fallen Order and Darksiders III. But again, to me, this is in the same region of discussion as examining the relative merits of films or novels---one can criticize without the demand that everything conform to one's own tastes (otherwise, Cafe Society would be a pretty empty forum).
  #85  
Old 04-27-2020, 10:59 AM
storyteller0910 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: New Jersey (it's not as bad as they tell you)
Posts: 4,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
That definitely does not make the game look good, if this is a widespread belief among the players. Why the hell would it be up to you to force people to play the game the way you want them to? If it's in the game, the devs put it there for a reason, and it's not up to you to say it's "wrong."
Well, except that this argument includes the multiplayer invasion mechanic! The devs put that in the game too, and they put it in there for a reason (actually, I'd argue they put it in for a lot of reasons). The people who made the game made it possible for powerful and skilled players to murder less powerful and less skilled players - that is an explicitly allowed part of the game design. Why do you think it's there?

Here's my half-assed theory. The From games are my favorite video games in the world, and it's not because they are difficult - but the difficulty is an essential component of the actual reason, which is this:

What I value in games, more than anything, is a sense of emergent gameplay - that I have many choices of how to proceed, and that each one will result in a different outcome. I want to feel like my experience of a game is different from anyone else's experience of that game - like I am having a truly unique adventure that no one else will ever have. It is the difficulty that enables this. The game is challenging enough that I have to explore different approaches, and find the ones that work best for me. The way that I experienced Ornstein and Smough (paired bosses in the first DS that are exceptionally difficult) is a unique and specific memory. And yeah, the time I got ganked by a much better player using a sword I had never found myself and dressed, for some reason, as the Joker - that's a unique experience and it hardly ruined the game. I just died. So what? I died a lot!

By way of contrast, right now I'm playing the Final Fantasy VII Remake, and it's fun enough and beautiful to look at. But it's basically easy, and at times it feels like I'm basically just tapping "X" to proceed. That's not the same level of fun for me, so I'll finish this game but I'll barely remember it down the line.
  #86  
Old 04-27-2020, 12:58 PM
Jragon's Avatar
Jragon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Miskatonic University
Posts: 10,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Man Half Wit View Post
I think, to me, a game is mostly about an experience---a narrative, a setting, a world, a bit of escapism, and yes, when crushing faceless minions of some dark whatever, a bit about power. The idea of gaming for a challenge is, to me, a bit like reading a novel for a challenge, or watching a movie for a challenge---it's just not the right category.

Perhaps a part of that is that I play pretty much exclusively single-player. Challenge, to the extent that this applies to the medium at all (to me), is something I could see myself enjoying against others---like the challenge of getting better at chess to beat opponents I couldn't beat before, and likewise for sports and such (not that I'm terribly much of a sports person, but I get the concept in a way I don't with video games). Even in these settings, I'm not hugely competitive, though.

So maybe the problem is just that, to me, games belong more to the category of novels, films, plays and the like---things to be experienced and enjoyed---than they do to the category of sports and such---things to improve at, beat others, and so on.
I think this ignores the fact that games as a participatory medium are simply able to use other devices than a novel to create a mood and tell a story. For instance, novels, films, and plays absolutely uses devices like this in their storytelling. If we want to stick to challenge, for instance, Finnegans Wake is a deliberately difficult book written in such a way to recreate a surreal experience. David Lynch's works do similar things -- it presents events in an obfuscated, disjointed style to heighten the surreal feeling. If you want a simpler example, works will sometimes present characters that are hard to understand as a joke, or write language that's hard to parse just to, well, give that feeling.

Games use difficulty for this purpose as well. For instance, the game Celeste is a game about overcoming anxiety and other mental illness, confronting your personal demons, and bettering yourself. It keeps a tally of every death you've had at the end of every level, but it uses this not to taunt you, but to cheer you on and show you how much you persevered, and this ties into the game's narrative about how determined Madeline is to climb the mountain and overcome her personal issues.

Now, Celeste also has something I wish Dark Souls had which is an Assist Mode. Which is a mode explicitly labelled as not the intended experience, and contains things like slowing the game speed down, so people with disabilities, declining reflexes, or simply lack of time can experience the game at a pace and difficulty that's appropriate for them. So they can still get that intended feeling of perseverance and, but tuned so you're actually physically able to complete it. It wouldn't work well with Online, but if they mandated offline only, it would be something in the Soulsborne games too I'd really support.

As is, Dark Souls also uses the difficulty in a similar way. The game is all about feelings of futility and hopelessness, and especially is concerned with the problems with immortality (whether it be of people, states, or ideologies), and it uses the difficulty in a very intentional way to set that mood and accent that. Now, again, it's fine if you don't like what Dark Souls does with this, but it is using its difficulty in the same way a film may use rapid editing to make a scene exciting, or a book may use a really long run-on sentence to simulate a character not shutting up.

Not all challenges in games do this, of course. Most very old arcade games don't have any themes like this (or if they do it's simply "the alien force is overwhelming!") and while you can read a narrative and themes into it based on the execution, it would be fair to call most of them just challenge for challenge's sake. And similarly, many games have optional superbosses that have no real narrative significance (again, beyond maybe "they're this tough cuz they're like, the strongest character in universe, man") and are just there for bragging rights. That's its own situation. But Dark Souls isn't that, not only at least. While From probably set out to make a difficult game because they thought that would be fun, first and foremost, it absolutely uses the challenge to support a narrative, themes, and an experience, so I don't think it's really right to say it's doing anything different from a film or book etc. It's just using devices to support its narrative that are unique to games being an interactive experience that aren't available to films or books or plays (though, again, see the first paragraph, both mediums have absolutely toyed with a concept of "difficulty").

E: While it's not execution difficulty. A good illustration of this is that Miyazaki (Dark Souls' lead designer) designed the games to be cryptic and difficult to figure out what to do and interpret the story, because he wanted to evoke the mystique he had felt when he was younger and reading and playing from untranslated Dungeons and Dragons source books while his English wasn't that good.

Last edited by Jragon; 04-27-2020 at 01:03 PM.
  #87  
Old 04-27-2020, 03:29 PM
GargoyleWB's Avatar
GargoyleWB is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Somewhere cold 'n squishy
Posts: 5,548
I love/hate the genre. I love the exploration, the small fights against the mobs, the pathfinding and puzzles, and the rpg gear experience. I loathe the boss fights.

My typical play is very enjoyable until I reach a boss gate. I immediately start webbing and youtube for shortcuts/strategies/playthroughs so that I can spend the absolute minimum amount of time in tedious frustration. If there is an ally summon, I use it every time possible.

I've played Dark Souls 2, Bloodbourne, and Nioh. My Nioh playthrough is stopped at, you guessed it, an annoying boss that even ally summons have failed to get me through. The game is now living on my shelf gathering dust.
__________________
"He was shortish. And oldish. And brownish. And mossy. And he spoke with a voice that was sharpish and bossy."
  #88  
Old 04-27-2020, 04:43 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by storyteller0910 View Post
What I value in games, more than anything, is a sense of emergent gameplay - that I have many choices of how to proceed, and that each one will result in a different outcome.
I like emergent gameplay too... but it has to not suck. KSP has emergent gameplay; it's not much more than a physics engine and a few pre-baked parts that you snap together, and yet it feels like you're running a space program. Everyone has a totally different experience. It's awesome.

On the other hand: in Fallout 76, mostly you're in PvE mode, but certain things transition you to PvP mode. A bit like getting invaded, I guess. One day I needed some fusion cores, and spent an hour or so clearing out a power plant that can produce these cores. This is a PvP-triggering event. When I finished, I was immediately shot in the back and died instantly. I didn't even see my attackers until after dying, but then saw they were using duped super-powerful items. So yay, I spent an hour hoping to gain some much-needed resources, and it was all for naught.

This was emergent gameplay, too. The game set up some basic rules about how PvP is triggered, the value of resources in the game, and so on, and out of it we get a situation where ganking noobs who have just opened up a workshop is strongly incentivized.

This was a memorable experience. It was also completely lame and a significant reason I put down the game for a while. Not because dying that one time was really that big a deal, but because the whole thing felt cheap and stupid. One of the worst crimes a game can make is to instill a sense of "why am I bothering"; after all, all games are ultimately pointless and so they need to earn their keep in that respect. I see no reason to think of emergent gameplay as a positive when it results in weaker players being made miserable.
  #89  
Old 04-27-2020, 04:56 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,548
And another memorable experience in F76, more recently: I was sneaking around the outskirts of some homestead that can been overrun with powerful creatures. They were tough, and I had died once already, but I was generally effective in waiting for one of the creatures to get far away from the group, then picking it off. Slowly I was making progress in my sneaky way.

But then some guy shows up with a legendary minigun and power armor and goes in blazing, mowing down the remaining baddies. I'm sure he thought he was doing me a favor, and in a sense he was. But it was lame from my perspective; I was hoping to do things my way and this guy disrupts the experience. Instead of erasing progress like the gankers, this guy erased part of the quest progression. Almost as bad in my experience.

This was also emergent. The map is big and so it was likely just luck that the guy ran across me. He may have thought of himself as some kind of paladin, saving the helpless--enhancing the role-play from his perspective. But that's not the kind of emergence that enhances my experience.
  #90  
Old 04-27-2020, 05:10 PM
Jophiel's Avatar
Jophiel is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Chicago suburbia
Posts: 20,040
Yeah, I just can't get into "forced" PvP in predominately PvE games. If I'm playing a game based around PvP then, cool, that's what I came for. It's not as though I'm trying to collect random winky-dinks in Battlefield and getting mad that someone shot me.

For a personal version (since I don't play Dark Souls), I play The Division 2, a shooter that is 95% PvE. There's a couple "Dark Zones" that have PvP but they can be mostly ignored. Unless you want one of the few items that drop exclusively in there. Then I gotta go in, kill NPCs (i.e. play the PvE game) until my drop comes around, grab it then pray no random PC comes along to kill me before I can safely extract it. It's not fun. I mean, the PvP advocates will spin a yarn about how it's a thrilling experience of anyone potentially being an ally or enemy, yadda yadda but really it's just an annoyance. I don't feel thrilled or some nerve pounding tension, just annoyed at the extra steps and more annoyed when some dude tries to gank me for the shit I just wasted an hour or two trying to get. I don't want the PvP and I don't feel it creates a unique story ("I got a thing and some dude with an min/max'd build one-shotted me" isn't really a story), I just want to go back to the PvE game play I loaded the game for.

Last edited by Jophiel; 04-27-2020 at 05:11 PM.
  #91  
Old 04-27-2020, 05:45 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,928
The DS1 PvP / PvE balance seems very well balanced to me - you can play the whole game PvE and never get invaded by another player (playing hollow). But, if you want to summon help (another player or an NPC) for a difficult level, or a hard boss then you must turn human and you can then be invaded.

Seems fair, and even then there is an invasion timer to stop you getting re-invaded in the near future. So if you're really not into PvP you can still summon no prob. Most players seem cool with it but there is a vocal minority of hatemail senders who want multi-player on their own terms, not the games, and feel invasion is somehow unfair if they are playing coop.

Anyhow was just thinking of this thread after a fun gravelord sesh in the Depths. Spread misery to lure phantoms?

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 04-27-2020 at 05:47 PM.
  #92  
Old 04-27-2020, 06:12 PM
Malden Capell is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: London
Posts: 2,422
Busy Scissors - what does 'play the red game' mean? I've never heard it before.

Sign me up as another not getting Dark Souls. I just couldn't get past the second boss, on the bridge, no matter how many walkthroughs I watched.

I may pick it up again someday soon just to give it one more go, but...I dunno.
  #93  
Old 04-27-2020, 06:59 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,928
I just meant it as playing invasions. Invaders appear as red phantoms in Dark Souls.

Ds3 has the way of blue covenant - if you're in it and get invaded by a red, 1 or 2 players in the Blue Sentinels covenant will be summoned to your aid. Cool mechanic when it works.
  #94  
Old 04-28-2020, 12:19 AM
Half Man Half Wit's Avatar
Half Man Half Wit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jragon View Post
If we want to stick to challenge, for instance, Finnegans Wake is a deliberately difficult book written in such a way to recreate a surreal experience. David Lynch's works do similar things -- it presents events in an obfuscated, disjointed style to heighten the surreal feeling.
This kinda equivocates on the notion of 'challenge', though. Sports and such are competitive challenges; a David Lynch movie isn't something you can win, or be best at. I'm fine with the challenge a difficult---in the sense of, requiring engagement to appreciate---work of art presents, but the challenge of 'gitting gud' at a video game simply does nothing to me---the incentive and reward just isn't a good fit for my personal predilections, I guess.

Quote:
As is, Dark Souls also uses the difficulty in a similar way. The game is all about feelings of futility and hopelessness, and especially is concerned with the problems with immortality (whether it be of people, states, or ideologies), and it uses the difficulty in a very intentional way to set that mood and accent that. Now, again, it's fine if you don't like what Dark Souls does with this, but it is using its difficulty in the same way a film may use rapid editing to make a scene exciting, or a book may use a really long run-on sentence to simulate a character not shutting up.
This kind of argument runs the danger of being able to justify anything, though. That something is intentional doesn't necessarily make it good. A three-hour recording of nails scratching on a chalkboard is annoying, but it doesn't become good just because it's intentionally annoying, aiming to create an atmosphere of annoyance, or what have you. On the other hand, if it's the point of Dark Souls to generate an air of frustration, then it's succeeded impressively, frustrating me right out of wanting to play it!

However, I should reiterate that my complaint isn't with Dark Souls, as such: it's a game I tried, found not to my tastes, and gave up on. My loss, if anyone's. I can't even claim to have formed a terribly sophisticated opinion on it.

It's rather that it seems now that every other game has some form of DS mechanics, without there being even a pretense of justification. Telperion above made the comparison to complaining about rom-coms not having enough car chases, but it's rather the other way around: imagine there was a hugely successful film revolving mostly around car chases, and now, every other film feels the need to inject lots of car chases. Whatever the merits of the original film, and whether or not you liked it, I think it's fair game to be annoyed by such tendencies.
  #95  
Old 04-28-2020, 05:50 AM
Asympotically fat is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,211
The Dark Souls games are difficult to get in to, when I plsyed DS1, I got as far as the the bridge in Undead Burg where the hollows lob firebombs at you and decided it wasn't for me. I cam eback about a year later played it a bit more and struggled through and beat the Taurus Demon after multiple attempts, after which point I got it. The game is about struggling to overcome seeminglt insurmountable odds by improving and not so much improving your character, becoming OP by levelling up is an incredibly slow wy to defeat the game, but by learning from your failures. It's not a game though that requires precise button presses or perfection, those games exist, it's a game that says look you can't expect to go in to a situation cold and suceed everytime, but with perservance what at first seems impossible can be overcome. The idea of rebirth is integral to the pplot, though the plot is obscure, whcih I do like about the games.

When I first got in to DS I used to play offline after being invaded a few times, but after a whiel a learned to lvoe the multiplayer mechanics, thoguh was never great at it. DS2 was okay, but I never got really in to despite perserving for a while. DS3 I completed and enjoyed, but after coming back to it a couple of years later I got in to massively, especially the multiplyer and i can beat most people one-on-one. I would rate DS3 as the best game of all time due to its improved graphics and mechnaics over the original.
  #96  
Old 04-28-2020, 06:14 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Man Half Wit View Post
This kinda equivocates on the notion of 'challenge', though. Sports and such are competitive challenges; a David Lynch movie isn't something you can win, or be best at. I'm fine with the challenge a difficult---in the sense of, requiring engagement to appreciate---work of art presents, but the challenge of 'gitting gud' at a video game simply does nothing to me---the incentive and reward just isn't a good fit for my personal predilections, I guess.

.
Wouldn't most people be in a similar boat there? Gitting gud at a video game does do something for me, but it isn't much. The challenge of reading a demanding book, say, can give you insights that last your whole life, even the emotional response on first read can resonate through the decades. But if I solo Sister Friede (v hard boss on Dark Souls 3) I've basically forgotten about it the next day to all intents and purposes.
It is sort of empty, at least the gitting gud part in isolation. If it's part of a big community or social interaction around the game then that's a different story, or there are wider aspects to the game. There are a lot of posts on the DS reddits saying how the game helped people through tough times, for example, or coping with mental illness, I guess due to the themes of perseverance and refusing to give up.

Good vid here of someone to which the above manifestly does not apply - not to amke any particular point, it's just an awesome example of someone who cares about gitting gud (loads of swearing so NSFWFH).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYmqJl4MoNI

It's interesting because the passion is so real. HAve you ever heard anyone say 'I am a legend' like that and so obviously mean it? Corporations would pay a billion dollars to learn how to bottle that real-ness and sell it. But he is doing something that literally less than 100 people on earth directly care about - speed-running one level on a 25 year old video game.

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 04-28-2020 at 06:19 AM.
  #97  
Old 04-28-2020, 10:25 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 19,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Man Half Wit View Post
The idea of gaming for a challenge is, to me, a bit like reading a novel for a challenge, or watching a movie for a challenge---it's just not the right category
Spoken like a man whose eyes have never lain on a single page from Finnegan's Wake *scoff*

  #98  
Old 04-28-2020, 04:09 PM
Lumpy's Avatar
Lumpy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota US
Posts: 16,944
There's challenging and there's challenging. I don't want the game equivalent of four schoolyard bullies two grades ahead of me beating me to a whimpering pulp, stealing my pants and laughing at me for what a loser I am.
  #99  
Old 04-28-2020, 04:38 PM
dzeiger is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Frisco, Tx
Posts: 1,759
Watching through runs of the various Souls games via Twitch or Youtube or whatever, I get the whole "try, fail, try again, fail a little better, keep improving until you succeed" bits in terms of the general gameplay, but it seems to go a little overboard with the "quest/storyline" stuff. Like if you want to complete Onion Bro's story, there's a point where he will die if you don't make some preparations ahead of time, and I don't think there's any real warning that you have to do something before you talk to him.

So, if you're not looking at a guide, you'll probably fail first time, but he won't reset if you die, you're just out of luck until your next playthrough. Running back through a group of mobs everytime you fail to kill a boss is one thing, running through 2/3 of the game to get to a certain quest point seems quite another.
  #100  
Old 04-28-2020, 04:49 PM
orcenio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NCR
Posts: 2,466
None of the NPCs respawn in playthroughs and most are fated to die tragically. Let Sir Onion go as the heroic knight of Caterina that he is. It's more tragic if he survives.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:40 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017