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Old 04-06-2020, 10:21 AM
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Unfortunately, I think the media is setting up Trump for a big win on Hydroxychloroquine.


Iím just venting here a bit. Iíve been watching chloroquine phosphate (and bought some) back in mid Feb when the first article by Gao suggested CPís efficacy. The anecdotal evidence is pretty substantial at this point. Back in Feb, 10 hospitals in China had been using it, and CP was set to be standard treatment in the next guidelines. The only studies more flawed then the French one were those that found no benefit. IIRC, the last had an n of 11, all of which were already on oxygen, 3 of whom had solid cancer, 2 leukemia, an AIDS patient, etc. Since CP prevents entrance to the cell, giving it too late is like closing the barn door after the horses have run out.

Trump was grossly irresponsible in his announcement - even causing deaths as a result- but the media backlash cast a little too much doubt on the likely efficacy of CP itself. I think doctors really need to be more careful when they say ďthere is no evidence that X works,Ē because, true or not, most people assume that means they donít believe the drug works. Some clarify that this is not the case, but many doctors and journalists Iíve seen on CNN this week seem to weave their distaste for Trumpís actions into their skepticism about CP and Hydroxychloroquine.

Iím not here to debate the research studies at this point. Iím just kind of bummed that I think ultimately Trump is gonna look like he alone led the fight against the evil Dems in getting the panacea into the hands of the people.
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:57 AM
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The media? Did I hear right, did a reporter actually ask trump why grocery store are open? Is that plan, have people only allowed food if government approves?
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:02 AM
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I would be very happy is this drug works. Politics do not enter into it.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:03 AM
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There won't be any "win."

Even in terms of what it's designed to do, it's only moderately effective as prophylaxis against mosquito-borne parasites, so the idea that this is going to be a goldmine cure for COVID-19 is horse shit. The side effects alone are such that it would likely only be used when patients really start to go downhill, and when patients go downhill with COVID-19 they go down fast.

It's too late to manufacture the quantity of this drug that would in any meaningful way produce a noticeable benefit in the aggregate anytime soon. The first tsunami of COVID-19 death is upon our shores and there is nothing that will stop it -- too fucking late for that.

If you want to entertain the idea that this drug could be manufactured in sufficient quantities domestically (India owns most production and is currently banning export), and that we might be better prepared for tsunami wave #2, I might go along with that. But by that point, there will be at minimum tens of thousands dead, and literally millions of lives ruined by this.

I honestly don't see the upset, but then again I confess to being repeatedly naive and oblivious to the amount of kool aid that Trump supporters will guzzle in order to have their America restored.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:10 AM
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Iím just venting here a bit. Iíve been watching chloroquine phosphate (and bought some) back in mid Feb when the first article by Gao suggested CPís efficacy. The anecdotal evidence is pretty substantial at this point. Back in Feb, 10 hospitals in China had been using it, and CP was set to be standard treatment in the next guidelines. The only studies more flawed then the French one were those that found no benefit. IIRC, the last had an n of 11, all of which were already on oxygen, 3 of whom had solid cancer, 2 leukemia, an AIDS patient, etc. Since CP prevents entrance to the cell, giving it too late is like closing the barn door after the horses have run out.

Trump was grossly irresponsible in his announcement - even causing deaths as a result- but the media backlash cast a little too much doubt on the likely efficacy of CP itself. I think doctors really need to be more careful when they say ďthere is no evidence that X works,Ē because, true or not, most people assume that means they donít believe the drug works. Some clarify that this is not the case, but many doctors and journalists Iíve seen on CNN this week seem to weave their distaste for Trumpís actions into their skepticism about CP and Hydroxychloroquine.

Iím not here to debate the research studies at this point. Iím just kind of bummed that I think ultimately Trump is gonna look like he alone led the fight against the evil Dems in getting the panacea into the hands of the people.
I am betting prophylactic hydrochloroquine + zinc is going to be the key to everyone resuming normal life. I think we need to start cranking it out. Someone told me the underlying source of hydrochloroquine, Cinchona bark, grows like a weed, which if true makes it seem easy. Yes, it will be a huge win for Trump. I actually blame hydrochloroquine underestimation, fueled by anti-Trump sentiment, for some of the deaths in the early period (which may not be over yet).
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:11 AM
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The OP is right, even if the drug is only barely helpful, it sets up Trump for a huge PR win that will be perceived as "Trump said the drug was right, the libs and media said it was wrong, it turned out Trump was right." Even if the narrative is only half-true, it would be dynamite in terms of revving up his political base. They absolutely eat up the "Trump is standing alone, brave and stout, against an onslaught" narrative.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:12 AM
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This hydroxychloroquine stuff is the aspect of this epidemic that’s pissing me off more than anything else, and it’s being driven by the right wing media and fueled by the colloidal silver cure everything BIG PHARMA is suppressing the CURE conspiracy theory factions.

There is very little chance this will work. And even when I’m posting in this forum, I’m hesitate to say “Not a chance in hell”, even though that’s how I really feel. And I’m sure the unbiased medical professionals probably feel the same way. There’s a hesitancy to be too negative.

While testing these drugs against COVID is a new thing, they have been tested against other viruses such as the flu and some other SARS types virus and shown to be clinically ineffective. The idea that these anti-malaria’s could double as anti-virals is 40 years old. It has never panned out and I don’t expect it to start panning out now.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...089-8/fulltext

Over the past few days, they have reported on some recent trial successes. There is some selective reporting going on as there are lots of small “observational” trials going on right now, with active and control groups of 20-40 people. In some of those trials a handful of patients in the active group did better. This is being breathlessly reported by the right wing media. But other trials show no difference .

https://theconversation.com/a-small-...navirus-135484

Remember, this isn’t like cancer. Most people are going to recover anyway without an effective treatment. This means that increased scientific rigor is required.

The scary part is that the reason they are painting this picture of the miracle cure is that they think they can give the drug to everyone and “get everyone back to work”.

But I don’t share your concern that this is going to make Trump look good. He is in his element here, he’s a con artist and a huckster and selling miracles is what he does. He’s doing a great job - he even has his biggest haters and skeptics thinking “Maybe he’s right. Maybe this magic bean will work”. He’s a really really good con artist. But this is either going to fizzle or backfire bigly.

Because this drug has never had an in vivo effect against any virus, and I don’t expect this one to be different.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:22 AM
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The OP is right, even if the drug is only barely helpful, it sets up Trump for a huge PR win that will be perceived as "Trump said the drug was right, the libs and media said it was wrong, it turned out Trump was right." Even if the narrative is only half-true, it would be dynamite in terms of revving up his political base. They absolutely eat up the "Trump is standing alone, brave and stout, against an onslaught" narrative.
What if it's not barely useful? Or what if a few people die using it? These are certainly as likely. And personally, I don't think "barely useful" will cut the mustard for the hype that's gone on.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:26 AM
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I am betting prophylactic hydrochloroquine + zinc is going to be the key to everyone resuming normal life.
Based on what, exactly?
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:28 AM
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But I donít share your concern that this is going to make Trump look good. He is in his element here, heís a con artist and a huckster and selling miracles is what he does. Heís doing a great job - he even has his biggest haters and skeptics thinking ďMaybe heís right. Maybe this magic bean will workĒ. Heís a really really good con artist...
A good con artist can put a spin on everything and anything to pretend the outcome is in his favor. A really good con artist can fool most of the people most of the time. These are both attributes Trump has shown he has in abundance. For his base (the conned), he will always look good, and come out of this smelling like a rose. For rational thinkers, not so much.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:31 AM
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Trump is too old to think critically. At this point in his life, he is effectively running on a lifetime of habits and instincts that he has developed.

He will always double-down on anything you tell him he's being stupid about and if you continue to call him stupid, he'll triple and quadruple down on it.

CNN gave Trump billions of dollars of free advertising to get elected and they're helping to boost hydroxychloroquine. In theory, they have a choice about stopping. They're not a single old moron who has fried out his brain with sudafed, the media has thousands of people working, most of whom are young and capable of change.

Except, of course, that you can't choose to not be stupid.

Hydroxychloroquine is here to stay, no matter how you cut it. Personally, I'd suggest being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Ignore the stupid and move on.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:32 AM
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Yeah, if this doesn't pan out he can just "yeah, that didn't work out but I was the only guy pushing to try new things! Everyone else wanted to hide out until the disease - and our economy by the way - died. This country wasn't made to wait, it was made to work!"
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:34 AM
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Based on what, exactly?
You don't want to know where it got that from.

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Old 04-06-2020, 11:45 AM
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It has appeared to me to be the best collective wisdom of doctors on the front lines for weeks now. Here is a Youtube video uploaded today which appears to be a report from such a doctor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OKZbrk8Y7Q
There isn't time for a definitive study, and I know many responses will protest there is none yet. I regret a lot of the opposition is fueled by "Orange Man Bad" sentiment. I recommend people put politics aside and start thinking about how to mobilize to crank out hydrochloroquine + zinc.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:47 AM
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I know what doesn't play well: The president not letting his top expert to speak. If last evening's performance continues, Dr. Fauci might just be emboldened to snatch the microphone. It might be a move that gets him fired. But a fired Dr. Fauci is a dangerous Dr. Fauci for Mr. Trump.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:49 AM
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I am betting prophylactic hydrochloroquine + zinc is going to be the key to everyone resuming normal life. I think we need to start cranking it out.
Even though Researchers Warn Possible Coronavirus Treatment Hydroxychloroquine May Be Toxic When Combined With Diabetes Drug?
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:56 AM
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It has appeared to me to be the best collective wisdom of doctors on the front lines for weeks now. Here is a Youtube video uploaded today which appears to be a report from such a doctor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OKZbrk8Y7Q
There isn't time for a definitive study, and I know many responses will protest there is none yet. I regret a lot of the opposition is fueled by "Orange Man Bad" sentiment. I recommend people put politics aside and start thinking about how to mobilize to crank out hydrochloroquine + zinc.
The orange man is bad. He has recommended Remdesivir and it has shown promise as a possibility. He has recommended hydrochloroquine and there's genuinely no strong reason to put much faith into it - and particularly not as compared to some other options. For example, in regards to the French study that was conducted:

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Outside experts have heavily criticized the French study, however. Infectious disease geneticist Gaetan Burgio of the Australian National University noted that statistically, weighing national responses to a pandemic on a study of 20 people was unwise, that the French study was not conducted with doctors and patients blind to the treatment, and that only a quarter of the placebo patients had their viral load measured. [...] Even worse, six patients dropped out of the trial from the group receiving the drug, and three of them ended up in intensive care and one died.
Orange man doesn't make things right or wrong. Reality is still reality and reality wins over all. If something he says is true and correct, then it is true and correct despite that he said it and even if he had no intention of telling the truth. And likewise, something which he says that is wrong, is still wrong regardless that he said it and regardless of whether he intended to lie or tell the truth. Reality wins.

But one feature of the orange man is that, while he was never very good in his preferred vocation of real estate, he was a genuine success in Hollywood and had a similar outlook on life as everyon there - jumping into the same business as everyone there and licensing his name out while selling junk to morons.

If you want to find a fruitbat doctor who will shill for anything he can take a cut on, LA is a good place to look. As for me, I wouldn't help him to shill for zinc, unless I was in for a cut as well.

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Old 04-06-2020, 11:56 AM
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It has appeared to me to be the best collective wisdom of doctors on the front lines for weeks now. Here is a Youtube video uploaded today which appears to be a report from such a doctor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OKZbrk8Y7Q
There isn't time for a definitive study, and I know many responses will protest there is none yet. I regret a lot of the opposition is fueled by "Orange Man Bad" sentiment. I recommend people put politics aside and start thinking about how to mobilize to crank out hydrochloroquine + zinc.
Fueled by "Orange Man Super Good And Wise and All Knowing".

Put aside politics and stop posting stupid shit.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:57 AM
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I am betting prophylactic hydrochloroquine + zinc is going to be the key to everyone resuming normal life. I think we need to start cranking it out. Someone told me the underlying source of hydrochloroquine, Cinchona bark, grows like a weed, which if true makes it seem easy. Yes, it will be a huge win for Trump. I actually blame hydrochloroquine underestimation, fueled by anti-Trump sentiment, for some of the deaths in the early period (which may not be over yet).
I'll take that bet.
How much you want to wager?
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:58 AM
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The OP is right, even if the drug is only barely helpful, it sets up Trump for a huge PR win that will be perceived as "Trump said the drug was right, the libs and media said it was wrong, it turned out Trump was right." Even if the narrative is only half-true, it would be dynamite in terms of revving up his political base. They absolutely eat up the "Trump is standing alone, brave and stout, against an onslaught" narrative.
I think his supporters and some ignoramuses might see it that way, but it's not going to cause a seismic political shift. This magic drug can't change the totality of the circumstances.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:04 PM
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I know what doesn't play well: The president not letting his top expert to speak. If last evening's performance continues, Dr. Fauci might just be emboldened to snatch the microphone. It might be a move that gets him fired. But a fired Dr. Fauci is a dangerous Dr. Fauci for Mr. Trump.
You know what really doesn't play well? Refrigerated trucks full of dead bodies leaving hospitals in mid-sized and small towns across the South and Midwest.

I think Trump Land can tune out Dr. Fauci - seems like they're already doing just that. But they can't tune out corpses of their neighbors. That's when it hits home.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:12 PM
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Even in terms of what it's designed to do, it's only moderately effective as prophylaxis against mosquito-borne parasites
WD-40 was designed to be an anti-rust coat for rocket missiles, like a varnish. Ergo, it won't be effective in any other role in the world?

If you want to use the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against SARS as a comparison point, that's probably fair since it's a related disease with similar properties.

While I'm not a doctor, I'm skeptical that there's a large reason to think that the effectiveness of a thing against parasites would be relevant to its effectiveness against viruses.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 04-06-2020 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:13 PM
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I personally donít think hydroxychloroquine is going to do very much for coronavirus patients. I donít think it is responsible for the president to recommend it. He does so because it makes him look like a medical expert and that he is physically capable of sitting down, reading and evaluating the research and forming a considered opinion.

Is it a win? I donít follow political bubbles and prefer my news as unfiltered as possible. Whatever he does will be perceived as a win by much of the right, as he has stated all of the opinions so some of them are right. Whatever he does will be perceived as ineffectual by the left and by the sensible moderate. Neither side will do a reasoned review of his advice once we know more about the efficacy of these treatments.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:13 PM
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Apparently, the hydroxychloroquine treatment is supposed to be administered in conjunction with azithromycin. Leave aside the question of whether it works or not for a second - what's the theoretical benefit? What possible benefit can an antibiotic have against a virus?
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:15 PM
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Apparently, the hydroxychloroquine treatment is supposed to be administered in conjunction with azithromycin. Leave aside the question of whether it works or not for a second - what's the theoretical benefit? What possible benefit can an antibiotic have against a virus?
It's more to prevent opportunistic bacterial infections.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:16 PM
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You know what really doesn't play well? Refrigerated trucks full of dead bodies leaving hospitals in mid-sized and small towns across the South and Midwest.



I think Trump Land can tune out Dr. Fauci - seems like they're already doing just that. But they can't tune out corpses of their neighbors. That's when it hits home.
No, that's when they'll blame the media et al because they stopped Trump from giving them the miracle cure.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:18 PM
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Apparently, the hydroxychloroquine treatment is supposed to be administered in conjunction with azithromycin. Leave aside the question of whether it works or not for a second - what's the theoretical benefit? What possible benefit can an antibiotic have against a virus?
Apparently it has some anti-inflammatory properties.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:27 PM
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I’m not down on hydroxychloroquine because of Trump.

I’m down on it because IT HAS BEEN STUDIED AS A POTENTIAL ANTI-VIRAL FOR OVER 40 YEARS AND IT HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY AND REPEATEDLY SHOWN TO BE COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNEFFECTIVE. Sorry for yelling.

I spent several years trying to save people like you from themselves - People that ran through their life savings in pursuit of miracle cures and left their families destitute. People that left their families in the last days of their lives to live in a crappy motel in Mexico or a rundown 3rd world clinic because they believed a few sketchy preliminary studies.

VIRAL DISEASES IN GENERAL ARE STILL UNCURABLE. That is why we place so much emphasis on prevention and vaccine.

There is no cure for the common cold. There is no cure for the flu. The best available treatments might sometimes make the symptoms less severe, that’s all. I’ll concede that it’s possible that a proven anti-viral might mitigate coronavirus symptoms. At least there’s a proven mechanism of action that makes sense.

But Hydroxychloroquine isn’t even an anti-viral.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:30 PM
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I'm seeing "there isn't time for studies!" elsewhere as well. It's frightening and frustrating.

Let's see... what else might work, since there isn't time for studies?

Quick, give everyone Viagra!

Let's shoot 'em full of insulin!

I think mega doses of penicillin will help!

(All of which would kill a bunch of people, but hey, there isn't time to think!)
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:37 PM
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I'm seeing "there isn't time for studies!" elsewhere as well. It's frightening and frustrating.

Let's see... what else might work, since there isn't time for studies?

Quick, give everyone Viagra!

Let's shoot 'em full of insulin!

I think mega doses of penicillin will help!

(All of which would kill a bunch of people, but hey, there isn't time to think!)
I say we all take forsythia. It's growing all over the place right now. WHAT DO WE HAVE TO LOSE, PEOPLE!!
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:50 PM
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No, that's when they'll blame the media et al because they stopped Trump from giving them the miracle cure.
They already are. Millions of Trumpists are totally convinced it's a legitimate and proven medical cure, and that the media and Deep State are conspiring against it to an effort to impose socialism. I am not in any way exaggerating.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:50 PM
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I say we all take forsythia. It's growing all over the place right now. WHAT DO WE HAVE TO LOSE, PEOPLE!!
Holistic micro-dosing is key.
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Old 04-06-2020, 01:13 PM
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It has appeared to me to be the best collective wisdom of doctors on the front lines for weeks now. Here is a Youtube video uploaded today which appears to be a report from such a doctor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OKZbrk8Y7Q
There isn't time for a definitive study, and I know many responses will protest there is none yet. I regret a lot of the opposition is fueled by "Orange Man Bad" sentiment. I recommend people put politics aside and start thinking about how to mobilize to crank out hydrochloroquine + zinc.
Abating symptoms is not a cure nor a preventive. And there had sure as shit better be a study, or millions could die. Also, despite what is being said and printed, chloroquine is NOT the most effective malaria prophylactic. People are confusing chloroquine with mefloquine, which is what is usually issued to people traveling or living in malarial areas, as it is effective across most varieties of malaria, including those resistant to quinine and chloroquine. I was unable to take it, so took doxycyline for three years, which was also an effective prophylactic.
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Old 04-06-2020, 01:17 PM
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They already are. Millions of Trumpists are totally convinced it's a legitimate and proven medical cure, and that the media and Deep State are conspiring against it to an effort to impose socialism. I am not in any way exaggerating.
Itís maddening. Itís frightening. Itís just not an effective anti-viral. Itís not a new idea, itís an old idea that resurfaces every so often and it has never panned out.

But there will continue to be anecdotal reports of success because in most cases the disease is self-limited. Most untreated patients will start getting better at some point. And if they are taking that drug, they will attribute it to that drug.

What is frightening is not the idea of widespread use. It does seem to be reasonably safe for most people and the retinal side effects that can cause blindness seem to be a side effect of long term use in most cases.

Whatís frightening is they are looking to fast track a thumbs up on this drug in order to end social distancing rules and reopen the economy. I cannot finish this paragraph without breaking the rules of this forum.
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Old 04-06-2020, 01:29 PM
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I'm not a doctor or epidemiologist or anyone useful, and I hate Trump with the fire of a thousand suns. But have skimmed through the first page of Google results on hydroxychloroquine, and I took doxycycline for a year, and I like vodka tonics. So now that I've stated my qualifications: it sounds like there is some very thin, anecdotal evidence that it has helped some people who have taken it, there are lab studies that it can prevent the virus from attacking cells, it is used by people suffering from auto-immune disorders to quiet their own immune auto-response (which does seem to be a problem with covid-19), and there are decades of evidence on safety with people taking it for malaria prophylaxis, though that is no longer recommended due to malaria-resistance.

So while Ann Hedonia's nightmare scenario of everyone taking it and going back to work and baseball games seems ... premature, to say the least, it does seem like there's enough reason to ramp up production enough to distribute the drug widely and start to actually gather real data. Am I wrong?
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Old 04-06-2020, 01:52 PM
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So while Ann Hedonia's nightmare scenario of everyone taking it and going back to work and baseball games seems ... premature, to say the least, it does seem like there's enough reason to ramp up production enough to distribute the drug widely and start to actually gather real data. Am I wrong?
As a non-doctor but as a person who does have a grasp on how poor people are at working with statistics and probabilities, I would say that it makes sense to perform testing on novel cures and treatments in some cases and for some possible therapies.

Whether a composite of hydroxychloroquine paired with some other medication has hit a high enough bar that it should be part of any sizable study, when you could use those same patients to test alternative potentials, I couldn't say. You shouldn't put all of your eggs in a single basket. But you also need to ensure that you're including enough patients in each study that you can actually get real numbers out of the result. Where the correct trade-off point is, I don't know. But the way to find that answer is to crunch numbers, not to blare one thing or another on the media.

There are people who can do math who are involved in the medical industry. I don't need to have an opinion and nor do you need to have one. The math will turn out a relatively objective answer on it, and that should be the only thing that matters in terms of what gets included in national testing and how many people are put under the study.
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Old 04-06-2020, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Do Not Taunt View Post
I'm not a doctor or epidemiologist or anyone useful...it does seem like there's enough reason to ramp up production enough to distribute the drug widely and start to actually gather real data. Am I wrong?
Yes.
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Old 04-06-2020, 02:04 PM
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Holistic micro-dosing is key.
Poster/username combo.
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Old 04-06-2020, 02:17 PM
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I would be very happy is this drug works. Politics do not enter into it.
Indeed.
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Old 04-06-2020, 02:19 PM
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Yes.
Based on what evidence?

I'm not trying to be flippant or dismiss the possibility of a useful thing, but jumping into broad clinical trials because a moron on TV heard about a thing one guy said he did doesn't strike me as being an effective use of limited resources.

Drug companies ARE looking into this... in limited early phase work, as they should be.
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Old 04-06-2020, 02:31 PM
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Based on what evidence?
Based on lack of evidence. All we have so far is wishful thinking. If that worked, homeopathy would be mainstream science and astrology would be used instead of DNA tests.

Perhaps you didn't read these posts, #28 & 34, so I will repeat them here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia View Post
Iím down on it because IT HAS BEEN STUDIED AS A POTENTIAL ANTI-VIRAL FOR OVER 40 YEARS AND IT HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY AND REPEATEDLY SHOWN TO BE COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNEFFECTIVE.
<snip>
VIRAL DISEASES IN GENERAL ARE STILL UNCURABLE. That is why we place so much emphasis on prevention and vaccine.
<snip>
Hydroxychloroquine isnít even an anti-viral.
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Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia View Post
...Itís just not an effective anti-viral. Itís not a new idea, itís an old idea that resurfaces every so often and it has never panned out.

But there will continue to be anecdotal reports of success because in most cases the disease is self-limited. Most untreated patients will start getting better at some point. And if they are taking that drug, they will attribute it to that drug.
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Old 04-06-2020, 02:32 PM
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Based on what evidence?

I'm not trying to be flippant or dismiss the possibility of a useful thing, but jumping into broad clinical trials because a moron on TV heard about a thing one guy said he did doesn't strike me as being an effective use of limited resources.

Drug companies ARE looking into this... in limited early phase work, as they should be.
Drug companies HAVE been looking at this drug as a potential anti-viral. For years and years. It has been consistently found to be ineffective.

Even the ďpositiveĒ results are contradictory. That YouTube video* posted by a Jim Peebles, contradicts a bunch of the other allegedly positive results. That doctor claims the treatment ( that other doctors claimed success with) is totally ineffective unless you add another magic ingredient- in this case, zinc.

Which contradicts most of the other anecdotes.

Hereís an example of an earlier study, properly conducted, that showed that it is completely ineffective in preventing flu. Not a YouTube video.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21550310

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 04-06-2020 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 04-06-2020, 02:34 PM
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Am I the only person on the SDMB who's been on hydroxychloroquine? I keep hoping someone else will chime in. I was on it for six years for lupus. I can state unequivocally that it does NOT prevent or cure viral infections. I had the flu while I was on it as well as a couple of colds.
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Old 04-06-2020, 02:43 PM
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As it happens with the climate change issue, the issue really is about Trump willfully ignoring expert advice.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...loroquine.html
Quote:
But against the scientists stand a collection of pseudoscientists who have gained the president’s ear. “Dr. Oz,” a celebrity doctor whose views have been denounced by medical authorities, has gained Trump’s attention with a flurry of Fox News appearances touting hydroxychloroquine. Trump “made a point of telling aides that he was interested in what Oz had to say and that he wished to speak to the much-maligned television personality,” reports the Daily Beast.

Trump’s lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, has repeatedly lobbied Trump to adopt hydroxychloroquine, which he has falsely described as “100 percent effective.” Giuliani told the Washington Post that he hasn’t discussed his views with Fauci, “I’m sure he thinks I am an ignoramus,” he concedes. Upon realizing that one of the country’s most prestigious scientists considers them an ignoramus, most laypeople would begin to question their own views, but Giuliani operates at a level of self-confidence that few people can fathom. Trump’s trade adviser, Peter Navarro, has enlisted in the cause. In a bizarre episode, he confronted Fauci at a Saturday White House meeting, denouncing his caution.

Whether Giuliani and Navarro are even qualified to advise the president in their stated areas of expertise — law and economics, respectively — is a matter of serious dispute. For both to emerge as self-styled medical authorities during a pandemic is beyond unnerving.
Even the best anecdotes about how effective this is (Not really a cure, but at best a tool to lower the symptoms so as to allow other solutions to work), like one I noticed, had a doctor that reported that this medicine needed Zinc to make a significant difference. Now, I noticed that Zinc is not usually mentioned in the previous incomplete studies made before, meaning that there is a lot of wishful thinking is going into this.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 04-06-2020 at 02:46 PM.
  #45  
Old 04-06-2020, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
As a non-doctor but as a person who does have a grasp on how poor people are at working with statistics and probabilities, I would say that it makes sense to perform testing on novel cures and treatments in some cases and for some possible therapies.

Whether a composite of hydroxychloroquine paired with some other medication has hit a high enough bar that it should be part of any sizable study, when you could use those same patients to test alternative potentials, I couldn't say. You shouldn't put all of your eggs in a single basket. But you also need to ensure that you're including enough patients in each study that you can actually get real numbers out of the result. Where the correct trade-off point is, I don't know. But the way to find that answer is to crunch numbers, not to blare one thing or another on the media.

There are people who can do math who are involved in the medical industry. I don't need to have an opinion and nor do you need to have one. The math will turn out a relatively objective answer on it, and that should be the only thing that matters in terms of what gets included in national testing and how many people are put under the study.
Sure, and I'd love to see some good cites from people who actually do know what they're talking about (specific to COVID-19 and addressing some of the anecdotal evidence that it does work.) And for a mass audience, not journal articles. I know I'm asking for a unicorn given how busy everyone who knows anything must be, but the fact that I didn't find anything like that is why I'm posting here.

I'm also unwilling to accept that I don't need to have an opinion. I'm not saying I'm going to second-guess experts, but that a) I have natural curiosity and want to understand, b) it's part of being an informed citizen, and c) health experts' expertise doesn't extend to other realms. They can tell us the facts, the risks, and the likely outcomes, but they are not the people who get to decide if those risks are worth taking, or how to trade off economic pain against public health.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Am I the only person on the SDMB who's been on hydroxychloroquine? I keep hoping someone else will chime in. I was on it for six years for lupus. I can state unequivocally that it does NOT prevent or cure viral infections. I had the flu while I was on it as well as a couple of colds.
But presumably you didn't get COVID-19. QED. [I'm kidding, for the sarcasm-impaired.]
  #46  
Old 04-06-2020, 03:00 PM
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You know what really doesn't play well? Refrigerated trucks full of dead bodies leaving hospitals in mid-sized and small towns across the South and Midwest.

I think Trump Land can tune out Dr. Fauci - seems like they're already doing just that. But they can't tune out corpses of their neighbors. That's when it hits home.
I'm not so sure about that. Short of actually being one of those dead, I think Trump's base will tune out even the deaths of their neighbors and family.
  #47  
Old 04-06-2020, 03:05 PM
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I say we all take forsythia. It's growing all over the place right now. WHAT DO WE HAVE TO LOSE, PEOPLE!!
Forsythia is my go-to argument for this kind of situation as well.
  #48  
Old 04-06-2020, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Musicat View Post
Based on lack of evidence. All we have so far is wishful thinking. If that worked, homeopathy would be mainstream science
That might look like this: Homeopathic Accident & Emergency, courtesy of That Mitchell and Webb Look (2:33 video).

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 04-06-2020 at 03:14 PM.
  #49  
Old 04-06-2020, 03:13 PM
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I would like to add that a good family friend is an emergency care doctor. She points out that hydroxychloroquine carries risks and should not be used without active case management, including a heart monitor. Even if you discard all of the medical evidence and decide to give it a try, it's not a drug that should be used outside of the hospital, especially with patients that are already in critical condition.


It's magical thinking and attention should be spent elsewhere.
  #50  
Old 04-06-2020, 03:15 PM
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Am I the only person on the SDMB who's been on hydroxychloroquine? I keep hoping someone else will chime in. I was on it for six years for lupus. I can state unequivocally that it does NOT prevent or cure viral infections. I had the flu while I was on it as well as a couple of colds.
Raises hand. I did, for Malaria when I was younger or at least per my mother.
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