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  #251  
Old 04-11-2020, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
His tweets often have this weird aspect of Trump seemingly yelling at the TV about what his government's doing, even though he's in charge of it.
"Very sad! We are getting killed by this Wuhan Virus PLUS unbelievable numbers of Americans out of work! POTUS very incompetent and a big LOSER! Buck stops with HIM! USA deserves better!
#ImpeachPOTUS NOW!"
  #252  
Old 04-11-2020, 08:06 AM
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Fascinating, and disturbing...but this has to do with “Bernie withdraws” because...??
  #253  
Old 04-11-2020, 08:22 AM
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Because Sanders' own "ruthlessly efficient steamroll-the-opposition mentality" has been so effective in advancing his goals over his decades-long Senate career.
This
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
A week ago the GOP wanted to pass a stimulus. Democrats blocked them until democratic agenda items were added.

Extra oversight was added (which Trump is already trying to get around, but it was added)
UI was expanded beyond the GOP senate bill
Extra funding was added for minority groups
Extra funding for health care frontliners
etc

Yes, that is ruthlessly efficient. Did the democrats get everything they wanted? No, but they stood up for themselves and fought for what they believe in...
and Sander's role in that was? He has nice ideals. He's never felt like a practical, get stuff done guy, though. Not that i think Biden is the strongest, either, I just don't think Sanders would be any better. They'd fail in different way. Sanders would yell, Biden would smile. But neither seems super to me.

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We've got 4-8 years of that to look forward to. Biden encouraging the democrats to abandon their voters and abandon their principles until the GOP realize they've won and don't put up as much of a fight...
God, I hope so. I'm anticipating trump wins the election and i think there's a nontrivial chance he makes himself dictator for life. At least he's old and unhealthy.
  #254  
Old 04-11-2020, 10:24 AM
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Matt Yglesias made a very interesting point on the latest Vox podcast. He said he met with people close to the Sanders campaign back in February 2019 and suggested that Bernie actually formally join the Democratic Party. He says they laughed that off and in fact said it was so absurd they werenít even going to bring the idea to Bernie.

Yglesias goes on to say that he doesnít want to claim that Bernie would have won if they would have just listened to him, but that it is a remarkable thing in a candidacy that (unlike 2016) did not start out as a protest candidacy but was really aimed at winning the nomination, that they were so dismissive of doing ďliterally the simplest thing you could do to make yourself seem more acceptable to a mainstream political party.Ē And I agree that this was a big mistake and a strange form of hubris. It would not have required him to change a single substantive position. There is just some sort of stubborn point of pride about not actually joining the party.

But then it shouldnít surprise anyone if the party instead chooses a guy who keeps pointing out at every televised rally that heís a proud lifelong Democrat. So are most Democratic primary voters! You can set all questions of policy and electability aside and even then, people are going to be reluctant to warm to someone who acts disdainful of joining their club. Thatís basic human psychology, and the left is going to have to learn from that mistake and not make this unforced error in the future if they want to gain power.
  #255  
Old 04-11-2020, 11:45 AM
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Fascinating, and disturbing...but this has to do with ďBernie withdrawsĒ because...??
It doesnít. Itís just irrelevant* ranting.


* ó irrelevant to Bernie Withdraws
  #256  
Old 04-11-2020, 03:02 PM
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Matt Yglesias made a very interesting point on the latest Vox podcast. He said he met with people close to the Sanders campaign back in February 2019 and suggested that Bernie actually formally join the Democratic Party. He says they laughed that off and in fact said it was so absurd they weren’t even going to bring the idea to Bernie.

Yglesias goes on to say that he doesn’t want to claim that Bernie would have won if they would have just listened to him, but that it is a remarkable thing in a candidacy that (unlike 2016) did not start out as a protest candidacy but was really aimed at winning the nomination, that they were so dismissive of doing “literally the simplest thing you could do to make yourself seem more acceptable to a mainstream political party.” And I agree that this was a big mistake and a strange form of hubris. It would not have required him to change a single substantive position. There is just some sort of stubborn point of pride about not actually joining the party.
Other things Bernie should have done: abandoned the "Democratic Socialist" label. In addition to scaring people away, it's also not technically accurate. Democratic Socialism is about abolishing capitalism. But Bernie's policies don't do that, they merely add a stronger safety net and more regulation to our capitalist system. The "revolution" talk may have excited the younger people, but it scared the older folk. In reality, despite the way he branded himself, he's a reformer, not a revolutionary. A Social Democrat, not a Democratic Socialist.

Last edited by Blalron; 04-11-2020 at 03:03 PM.
  #257  
Old 04-11-2020, 05:34 PM
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“All the scariness, half the policies!”
  #258  
Old 04-11-2020, 07:04 PM
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I continue to not buy that you have to do all that much to undo what Trump has actually done, because what Trump has done is mostly "Don't do the things a president should do," and "do things any president would not do." Simply having him replaced means the unstaffing goes away, and that the organizations that were crippled come back. Then all you need from there is to stop the stupid trade wars and stop saying stupid, hostile shit.

I'm not after some huge change in how government functions. Not yet, anyways. You have to first have a foundation that is working, then you can experiment with making things better. you don't go from dysfunctional to "never tried this before" and expect it to work without harming people.

The main issue I have with Biden is the lack of enthusiasm, and the unfortunate fact that enthusiasm (rather than just rational thought ) is so important in winning elections. It shouldn't matter how enthused you are for a candidate, as long as they are the better choice (i.e. the lesser of two evils--concepts that mean the exact same thing in a two person race). But, for some reason, it does.

It's winning the election, not what happens afterwards, that concerns me much more. That's been a concern since Biden would clearly win. Given that, I care about Bernie dropping out only in terms of how well it will help Trump lose the election, not what happens afterwards.

Last edited by BigT; 04-11-2020 at 07:06 PM.
  #259  
Old 04-11-2020, 07:23 PM
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It’s this big trope that there is no enthusiasm for Biden, but the record turnout of people coming out to vote for him would suggest otherwise. It’s just that those people are not on social media.
  #260  
Old 04-11-2020, 07:29 PM
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...The main issue I have with Biden is the lack of enthusiasm, and the unfortunate fact that enthusiasm (rather than just rational thought ) is so important in winning elections. It shouldn't matter how enthused you are for a candidate, as long as they are the better choice (i.e. the lesser of two evils--concepts that mean the exact same thing in a two person race). But, for some reason, it does.
...
Does it, though? When the alternative to Biden is not Romney or Jeb Bush, but TRUMP?

This emphasis on "enthusiasm" seems a relic of a time when the two major-party candidates were both basically sound and sane. But that's not the situation we're looking at, this particular November.

Is the talk about 'not inspiring enough' a way forward for fans of Sanders to excuse a failure to vote? As if the non-Trump candidate owed it to them to get them excited?

Because that's not what voting is. It is not an obligation of the candidate to make voters feel any particular way. A vote is not a magical device that ensures the voter is happy and satisfied and feels Seen by the candidate. A vote is a tool you use to get as close as possible to what you want.

In this case, what millions want is for Donald Trump to GO AWAY.
  #261  
Old 04-11-2020, 07:48 PM
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A vote is a tool you use to get as close as possible to what you want.
"Voting is a chess move, not a valentine." -Rebecca Solnit
  #262  
Old 04-11-2020, 08:12 PM
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Is the talk about 'not inspiring enough' a way forward for fans of Sanders to excuse a failure to vote? As if the non-Trump candidate owed it to them to get them excited?

Because that's not what voting is. It is not an obligation of the candidate to make voters feel any particular way. A vote is not a magical device that ensures the voter is happy and satisfied and feels Seen by the candidate. A vote is a tool you use to get as close as possible to what you want.
Here's the counterargument to that. If progressive votes are taken for granted, if they always "vote blue no matter who", why the hell should the democratic establishment bother to listen to them? By strategically threatening to withhold their votes if they aren't catered to, progressives could possibly shift Biden leftward on policy.
  #263  
Old 04-11-2020, 08:26 PM
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In the real world, Biden is already reaching out to Sanders about picking up some of his policies.

I will put on my Carnac cap and predict that reality will make no difference in anything the Bernie Bros say for the next six months.
  #264  
Old 04-11-2020, 09:54 PM
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Here's the counterargument to that. If progressive votes are taken for granted, if they always "vote blue no matter who", why the hell should the democratic establishment bother to listen to them? By strategically threatening to withhold their votes if they aren't catered to, progressives could possibly shift Biden leftward on policy.

Yes, you could try to drive a hard bargain as it were. But you play a dangerous game there as you might find yourselves getting traded out for center right business types who donít like the populist rednecks who have taken over the GOP. And I honestly would not like to see that, even if part of me would feel "it serves you right". I will go along with that if it is what is needed to win, but I would prefer the left stay aboard and pull the center of gravity of the party to the center-left rather than to the center or center-right.

Just keep in mind that grabbing one center-right voter is worth as much as two left-wing voters because I donít believe for a second that your side is going to swing to actually voting Republican.

I think you are getting compromise from Biden already (several old Washington hands have observed that this is the first time they have seen a Democrat pivot left after wrapping up the nomination), and you might be surprised by how much you lose if you bail out. It makes me think of the 1990s negotiations over a Palestinian state. Is there any doubt that Palestinians would now take the deal they turned their nose up at in a heartbeat if they were offered it again?

The game you are talking about playing is similar. You are trying to drive a hard bargain for a better deal, but if you just get replaced by center right voters, you may find you have lost all your leverage and I will be sad about it too because I will be on the left edge of the party at that point and have less leverage than if you were in it further to my left.

It's also a dangerous gambit because as we saw in Wisconsin, the GOP is seriously eroding democracy, and are such a clear and present danger you might not get the free and fair election you need later to trade in the "cred" you built by playing electoral hardball now. If Biden were running against a McCain or Romney type nominee, then sure: you could teach the Dems a lesson and then maybe they'd come hat in hand four years later. In the meantime you'd have a GOP president who respected small-d democratic norms. But if we let Trump win this, there may still superficially be elections but they might become a total farce.
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  #265  
Old 04-11-2020, 11:16 PM
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The main issue I have with Biden is the lack of enthusiasm, and the unfortunate fact that enthusiasm (rather than just rational thought ) is so important in winning elections.
Sure. But, the thing is, Biden actually had far more people turn up and vote for him than Sanders did. So it's hard to bemoan Biden's inability to inflame passion when the alternative was a guy who could only get people mad on Twitter or to show up for a concert rally but who provably stay home on election day.
  #266  
Old 04-12-2020, 01:12 AM
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... I would prefer the left stay aboard and pull the center of gravity of the party to the center-left rather than to the center or center-right.
...
The game you are talking about playing is similar. You are trying to drive a hard bargain for a better deal, but if you just get replaced by center right voters, you may find you have lost all your leverage and I will be sad about it too because I will be on the left edge of the party at that point and have less leverage than if you were in it further to my left.

It's also a dangerous gambit because as we saw in Wisconsin, the GOP is seriously eroding democracy, and are such a clear and present danger you might not get the free and fair election you need later to trade in the "cred" you built by playing electoral hardball now. If Biden were running against a McCain or Romney type nominee, then sure: you could teach the Dems a lesson and then maybe they'd come hat in hand four years later. In the meantime you'd have a GOP president who respected small-d democratic norms. But if we let Trump win this, there may still superficially be elections but they might become a total farce.
I agree with this. I am not as radical as Sanders or Warren, but we NEED you radicals ó not just for your votes, but to keep pulling us in the right direction.

The radical agenda was never going to get passed in 2021 in any event. But with hope and unity among the anti-Republican camp, progress may come sooner rather than later.

GOP cheating will make victory in November difficult. This is the hurdle we must focus on now.
  #267  
Old 04-12-2020, 01:22 AM
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I continue to not buy that you have to do all that much to undo what Trump has actually done, because what Trump has done is mostly "Don't do the things a president should do," and "do things any president would not do." Simply having him replaced means the unstaffing goes away, and that the organizations that were crippled come back. Then all you need from there is to stop the stupid trade wars and stop saying stupid, hostile shit. ...
I'm afraid you underestimate the damage Trump has done.

The tax code has been changed radically, to favor corporations and the rich, and against blue-voting urban dwellers. Tax codes aren't easy to change back.

The institutional damage at Dept. of State, Dept. of Energy and other important agencies has been brutal. Scientists and experienced personnel have been fired or have quit in droves. Many of these fine people have moved on and won't be eager to try a government job again. Some long-term scientific experiments were abandoned; they are completely lost. Scientists were ordered to destroy records ó we're dependent on some of them disobeying orders.

Intelligence assets planted in Russia have been outed. The national debt has ballooned for no good reason (exacerbating the necessary debt we incur due to the virus). Countries no longer respect the U.S.A. The partisan divide grows worse. American people now have less faith in government than ever.

The damage caused by Trump is huge, and will dominate America's grieving process for years.
  #268  
Old 04-12-2020, 11:56 AM
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Deja voted


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May I be the first to say, "Trump and Biden, how did we end up with those two?"
Yes, and I will the second.

But talk about a sense of deja vu. We said the same thing just four years ago.
  #269  
Old 04-12-2020, 11:56 AM
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Here's the counterargument to that. If progressive votes are taken for granted, if they always "vote blue no matter who", why the hell should the democratic establishment bother to listen to them? By strategically threatening to withhold their votes if they aren't catered to, progressives could possibly shift Biden leftward on policy.
From Joe Bidenís Platform Is More Progressive Than You Think by Jonathan Chait, New York Daily Intelligencer (3/12/2020)
Quote:
...last week the Tax Policy Center published its analysis of Bidenís plan to increase taxes on the rich. The plan would raise $4 trillion over a decade, making it ó if enacted ó one of the largest wealth transfers in American history.

Now, as Biden promised, that still wouldnít be a ďfundamentalĒ change in [wealthy people's] lives. They would still have a lot of money ó more, in most cases, than they enjoyed a decade ago. But it is still a very sizable change, one that would likely meet with bitter and even hysterical resistance from the rich when introduced in Congress.

There is plenty more liberal meat on the bones of Bidenís program. He is proposing more generous subsidies and medicaid funding along with a public option in order to achieve universal health care; a combination of $17 trillion in clean energy investment and a suite of tighter regulation to bring emissions to zero by 2050; a combined $2 trillion in new spending on early education, post-secondary education, and housing, a $1.3 trillion infrastructure plan, and a $15 minimum wage.
  #270  
Old 04-12-2020, 05:34 PM
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"Voting is a chess move, not a valentine." -Rebecca Solnit
I like that.

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Originally Posted by Blalron View Post
Here's the counterargument to that. If progressive votes are taken for granted, if they always "vote blue no matter who", why the hell should the democratic establishment bother to listen to them? By strategically threatening to withhold their votes if they aren't catered to, progressives could possibly shift Biden leftward on policy.
As SlackerInc (quoted below) and others have said, this strategy makes no sense in the face of a GOP that is intent on ending free and fair elections---and that has made substantial progress toward that end.

There are still leftists saying 'let Trump stay in until 2024 and then the American people will see that their best bet is to vote in a true progressive' (or democratic socialist or what-have-you).

This is purest folly. Leave Trump in until 2024 and "voting" will be what it is in Russia: 90% for our glorious leader! What a landslide!

And, again,

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...If Biden were running against a McCain or Romney type nominee, then sure: you could teach the Dems a lesson and then maybe they'd come hat in hand four years later. In the meantime you'd have a GOP president who respected small-d democratic norms. But if we let Trump win this, there may still superficially be elections but they might become a total farce.
The leftist theory that we should 'let the people suffer more from Trumpism and then they will rally to the far left' is delusional. And massively irresponsible to boot.


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...I will put on my Carnac cap and predict that reality will make no difference in anything the Bernie Bros say for the next six months.
I wish I didn't agree with this prediction, but I do.
  #271  
Old 04-13-2020, 12:28 PM
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Itís this big trope that there is no enthusiasm for Biden, but the record turnout of people coming out to vote for him would suggest otherwise. Itís just that those people are not on social media.
They are on social media, they're just not on tiktok making headlines for threatening to burn down cities.
  #272  
Old 04-13-2020, 12:30 PM
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I agree with this. I am not as radical as Sanders or Warren, but we NEED you radicals ó not just for your votes, but to keep pulling us in the right direction.
You mean like how the right needs its radicals too keep pulling them further to the right?
  #273  
Old 04-13-2020, 12:33 PM
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I'm afraid you underestimate the damage Trump has done.

The tax code has been changed radically, to favor corporations and the rich, and against blue-voting urban dwellers. Tax codes aren't easy to change back.
The tax code is one of the most malleable laws in the country. No law has been amended more than the tax code.

And yes, Trump radically changed the tax code as you described and moneyed interests try to hold onto all their bought and paid for tax cuts but every Democratic administration since Clinton has rolled back tax cuts to some extent.

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The institutional damage at Dept. of State, Dept. of Energy and other important agencies has been brutal. Scientists and experienced personnel have been fired or have quit in droves. Many of these fine people have moved on and won't be eager to try a government job again. Some long-term scientific experiments were abandoned; they are completely lost. Scientists were ordered to destroy records ó we're dependent on some of them disobeying orders.
A lot of them will come back if they think they can make a positive difference. There is a reason they were there in the first place.

Quote:
Intelligence assets planted in Russia have been outed. The national debt has ballooned for no good reason (exacerbating the necessary debt we incur due to the virus). Countries no longer respect the U.S.A. The partisan divide grows worse. American people now have less faith in government than ever.

The damage caused by Trump is huge, and will dominate America's grieving process for years.
Generations.
  #274  
Old 04-13-2020, 12:52 PM
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Itís this big trope that there is no enthusiasm for Biden, but the record turnout of people coming out to vote for him would suggest otherwise. Itís just that those people are not on social media.
I was an election judge for the Minnesota primary. Biden won handily - even with Minnesota's easy vote ahead of time rules and Amy still in the election for most of those absentee voters.

My job was checking people in and determining if they needed a Republican or Democratic ballot.

Most people would simply check the party on the iPad, get the receipt and move over to the table to exchange their receipt for the ballot.

There were three exceptions

1) People who would make faces as they picked the Democratic ballot in a disgusted sort of "I can't believe I'm doing this" sort of way. (i.e. Republicans trying to spoil the Democratic outcome)

2) People who wanted to "vote for Trump" and needed to make that known verbally

3) And people who were "here for Joe" and needed to make that known verbally.

There weren't many of the second - Trump was the only person on the Republican Ballot - although I was surprised how many people came out and bothered to vote for Trump. The first I might have been reading into, there were a fair amount of them, though. The third type - there were actually a lot of them. I was shocked. Absolutely no one announced that they were there for Bernie (or Warren who was still in the race at that point - as was Tulsi, but she didn't get any votes in my precinct at all).

If one day and one precinct is any indication - definitely not a generalized sample - people are far more fired up about Biden than I would have imagined - and not at all interested in Sanders.
  #275  
Old 04-13-2020, 01:24 PM
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The AP is reporting that Bernie Sanders has now publicly endorsed Joe Biden for POTUS.
  #276  
Old 04-13-2020, 01:41 PM
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Is Sanders getting Secretary of State? Or maybe Treasury? Those are the 2 he would probably want.
  #277  
Old 04-13-2020, 02:53 PM
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I doubt Sanders is getting any position in a Biden Administration and he likely wouldn't want to be.
  #278  
Old 04-13-2020, 03:15 PM
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Sanders as SoS? God help us. I'm hard pressed to think of a less-qualified candidate.

He'd rather stick to his principles from the sidelines, where he never has to compromise. Leave him there until he retires.
  #279  
Old 04-13-2020, 03:35 PM
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I doubt Sanders is getting any position in a Biden Administration and he likely wouldn't want to be.
The place where Bernie can speak about his ideals is on the Senate floor not working for someone.

Good for him to come out now and say we need Biden in the White House. Thatís the unambiguous message that needed to be said as soon as possible. Iím glad he didnít wait until the convention.

Iím not even going to guess what a convention is going to look like this year. At least it wonít be contested and on Zoom.
  #280  
Old 04-13-2020, 04:17 PM
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He probably needs to at least ask Sanders if he wants a job with Biden. Same for others who ran who are not picked as VP, Booker, Harris, mayor Pete, etc.
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Old 04-13-2020, 04:51 PM
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Yeah, that's likely not going to happen either. It's not super common to do so.

IIRC, in 2008 it was massive shock to both Hillary Clinton and other Democrats that President Obama asked her to be his Secretary of State.

Now there is probably a better chance that Beto and Pete get some sort of position (ambassadorships?) because they currently aren't working. Senators are likely not going to be asked - unless Biden really likes them.

Last edited by ISiddiqui; 04-13-2020 at 04:53 PM.
  #282  
Old 04-13-2020, 05:55 PM
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A cabinet secretary is an at-will employee of POTUS, Sanders will not want that.

For the former contenders who are sitting Senators it's the easy call to stay Senators. Keep the seniority and visibility, the 6 year term that enables you to run for the top spot while still keeping your job every 2 out of 3 presidential elections, and the identity as an entity separate from the last President.
  #283  
Old 04-13-2020, 06:21 PM
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Is Sanders getting Secretary of State? Or maybe Treasury? Those are the 2 he would probably want.
I don't think Sanders wants a cabinet position. He probably wants Biden and the democratic platform to incorporate some of his ideas.
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  #284  
Old 04-13-2020, 06:27 PM
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If one day and one precinct is any indication - definitely not a generalized sample - people are far more fired up about Biden than I would have imagined - and not at all interested in Sanders.
I am pretty enthusiastic about Biden. Not to the point where I am a die hard ďJoe BroĒ (is that a thing?), Iím not putting Biden 2020 bumper stickers on my car or anything. He is very much a flawed candidate and is gaffe prone, has said many things I disagree with (or even facepalm about). But he was the only candidate I felt like I could vote for rather than just voting against Trump. Very early in the primaries when it looked like Biden would finish a distant 3rd, 4th, or lower I was resigned to rationalizing other candidates. (Except Sanders, if the election was Sanders/Trump Iíd probably vote 3rd party.)

Now that Biden is the presumptive nominee I have zero reservations about my vote. Iím happy to vote for him. Or at least relieved.
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Old 04-13-2020, 07:04 PM
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AOC has never talked to Biden but I assume she will soon

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/u...joe-biden.html
  #286  
Old 04-13-2020, 07:07 PM
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As a historical footnote, after a week's delay, Biden has won the Wisconsin primary.
  #287  
Old 04-13-2020, 07:35 PM
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Dear Bernie, thanks for playing. Maybe join the Democratic party if you'd like to use their resources for your next run. Or run as an independent, if you're feeling independent.

Last edited by bobot; 04-13-2020 at 07:36 PM.
  #288  
Old 04-13-2020, 07:39 PM
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Dear Bernie, thanks for playing. Maybe join the Democratic party if you'd like to use their resources for your next run. Or run as an independent, if you're feeling independent.
No we really don't want that. It'd dilute the voting body.
  #289  
Old 04-14-2020, 02:45 AM
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It’s been an interesting last couple of days for Bernie. He appears to have fired or seriously cracked down on two of his most extreme staff: Sirota and Briahna Gray. Both were going absolutely batshit crazy on Twitter. As of Sunday, both had changed their twitter to indicate they were former Bernie staffers which they didn’t do for the first few days after Bernie dropped.

I despise Bernie, but I think we can all agree he’s not a details guy and I doubt he regularly checks Twitter. But, someone must have brought it to his attention that his paid staff had gone off the rails on social media and it just wasn’t a few bros.

I hope he’s accepted that he’s never running for President again and that even the big rallies are over forever for him. Bernie has seen that Trump isn’t a joke, he won and could win again. I think his endorsement today is a sign that he doesn’t want to spend the twilight of his career in a senate minority and best known for a dwindling Twitter mob that becomes more detached from reality daily.
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  #290  
Old 04-14-2020, 02:11 PM
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Itís been an interesting last couple of days for Bernie. He appears to have fired or seriously cracked down on two of his most extreme staff: Sirota and Briahna Gray. Both were going absolutely batshit crazy on Twitter. As of Sunday, both had changed their twitter to indicate they were former Bernie staffers which they didnít do for the first few days after Bernie dropped.
That's good. Briahna Gray was the worst (and still is but can do less damage now).
  #291  
Old 04-14-2020, 03:53 PM
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Yes, and I will the second.

But talk about a sense of deja vu. We said the same thing just four years ago.
Yeah, I remember all the "Giant Meteor 2016" bumper stickers and whatnot.

It still leaves me shaking my head.

Yes, I'm disappointed that Biden's the nominee, and I'll probably be disappointed by his Presidency. But it's one thing to wish for a better quality of Democrat as President, and another thing entirely to be hoping and praying that democracy itself survives a second term of Trump, and be hoping that we're able to pick up the pieces afterward.
  #292  
Old 04-14-2020, 05:30 PM
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That's good. Briahna Gray was the worst (and still is but can do less damage now).
Bernie tossed her in front of a double decker extended bus
https://twitter.com/isaacdovere/stat...639173132?s=21
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  #293  
Old 04-14-2020, 06:07 PM
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Have to say I agree with Bernie and Briahna. Despite Biden's lying about his civil rights record, the rape allegation, his history of unwanted touching of girls and adult women and the Burisma debacle, we need to support Biden. That's why I am shifting my efforts towards getting Biden over the line against Trump.

Even foreigners can phone bank, non Americans can google for ideas.
  #294  
Old 04-14-2020, 06:15 PM
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I'm not sure if you made a typo there, but Gray still refuses to endorse Biden.
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  #295  
Old 04-14-2020, 06:29 PM
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I'm not sure if you made a typo there, but Gray still refuses to endorse Biden.
No I think that's good. We still need people to speak truth and hold the powerful accountable for their actions. We can't let it happen again that someone like Biden is the best that the entire nation of America has to offer against Trump.

And Sanders can't help being decent and supporting Biden, we need people like him too.
  #296  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:30 PM
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Dear Bernie, thanks for playing. Maybe join the Democratic party if you'd like to use their resources for your next run.
This is so silly. If the Democratic Party has set up rules for running as a Democrat, and he's following the rules, why the hell is it his fault if you think the rules should exclude him? He's not the one who set those rules up.

If you don't like how he followed the rules to run as a Democrat, direct your snark at the party officials who failed to change the rules in 2017, and who likely won't change the rules now.

Politics isn't a team sport. He used the mechanisms of power by the rules those mechanisms set up to try to change the balance of power. You can't ask for fairer than that.
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Old 04-14-2020, 07:37 PM
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Here's the counterargument to that. If progressive votes are taken for granted, if they always "vote blue no matter who", why the hell should the democratic establishment bother to listen to them? By strategically threatening to withhold their votes if they aren't catered to, progressives could possibly shift Biden leftward on policy.
Because people who vote are catered to and people who don't vote don't matter. That's how it works for every other group, that's how it's always worked. We are not speaking theoretically here.
  #298  
Old 04-14-2020, 09:25 PM
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Politics isn't a team sport. He used the mechanisms of power by the rules those mechanisms set up to try to change the balance of power. You can't ask for fairer than that.
This is so entirely wrong that it make shake the Earth.

Politics - running for office and influencing policy when in office - is so entirely a team sport that to deny it is the equivalent of denying the Earth is round or the sky is blue.

One wins elections and governs as a team. You form coalitions, you work together is shared best interests.

Do you think Mayor Pete and Klobuchar dropped out for the hell of it? No, they were part of a team - the one called moderate Democrats - and decided they could best help by dropping out. Would they have preferred to win? I feel pretty certain. But they felt it would be in the best interests of the team for them to leave the race at that point. It would be hard, at this point, to say they were wrong.

I have been involved in Democratic politics for decades now. I've fundraised, held events, given speeches and even run once. However, it's rare I've seen a successful candidate who wasn't a team player. The newbies help local candidates and help the state and national candidates as needed. Local candidates help prepare events and plan rallies when the congress people come to town. The flip side of that is that the people in positions of power help identify and help elect the newbie candidates by giving money and loaning expertise and staff when needed.
  #299  
Old 04-14-2020, 09:31 PM
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Because people who vote are catered to and people who don't vote don't matter. That's how it works for every other group, that's how it's always worked. We are not speaking theoretically here.
That's a perfect response.

Remember how some Bernie supporters were convinced that letting Trump win would be the best thing for progressives? Susan Sarandon voiced this in 2016:
Quote:
Some people feel that Donald Trump will bring the revolution immediately, if he gets in. Then things will really, you know, explode.
What actually happened was easily predictable: All those things that Bernie wanted were pushed aside. $15 minimum wage? When was that a discussion? Oh yeah, it hasn't been since Trump won. Medicare for All? How can that be implemented when all our energy is stopping Republicans from removing people from what insurance they currently have? It's hard to play offense when you're always playing defense.

Bill Clinton was moderate, but even his leftward nemesis Barney Frank admitted in his memoirs that after twelve years of Reagan and Bush I that Bill was probably the most leftward someone could be to win the White House in that era. "Triangulation" was better than four more years of Poppy.

If you don't show up to vote, don't be shocked if you don't have any voice in what the winner does. And if you don't show up to vote and the person who is the least progressive candidate on the ballot wins instead, don't be shocked that it doesn't inspire revolution. It never, ever does.
  #300  
Old 04-14-2020, 10:04 PM
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This is so entirely wrong that it make shake the Earth.

Politics - running for office and influencing policy when in office - is so entirely a team sport that to deny it is the equivalent of denying the Earth is round or the sky is blue.

One wins elections and governs as a team. You form coalitions, you work together is shared best interests.
You're 100% focused on the word "team" and 0% focused on the word "sport" and so 100% missed my point.

That said, a more developed criticism of Sanders than bobot's throwaway line might be that he didn't play nice with the people in power--that he tried to build a team of outsiders, rather than a team of fellow power-brokers--and that this team wasn't able to win. That's fair.

But regarding his choices as somehow unethical to the team is nonsense, treats the whole thing like a game, which I reject.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 04-14-2020 at 10:06 PM.
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