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  #101  
Old 04-17-2020, 01:07 PM
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  #102  
Old 04-17-2020, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
. At no time was choice allowed and I guess 14 year olds can get away with buying liquor now due to the threat of the pandemic, but two weeks ago it was better to let disease spread than allow 14 years old to buy liquor.
Oh, come on. Do you expect anyone to take your point here seriously?
  #103  
Old 04-17-2020, 01:19 PM
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Oh, come on. Do you expect anyone to take your point here seriously?
Okay, 14 years old was a little much, but two weeks ago restricting access based upon age was so important that people could not voluntarily wear masks even with the health concerns. Today, the health concerns are so important that people cannot choose NOT to wear masks even if it lets some (again, not 14) underaged people buy booze.

Where was the middle ground where the mask restriction was lifted?
  #104  
Old 04-17-2020, 03:38 PM
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I'm generally a big fan of the constitution; but I am personally having a bit of a hard time thinking if gun shops are essential. If we treat the first amendment and the second amendment equally, I would say gun shops are just as essential as newspapers (note I'm not saying internet news sources....just newspapers).
First Amendment guarantees FREEDOM (its only occurrence in the Constitution) of speech and the press. Internet news sources emit "speech" so they're covered. Yes, speech has repercussions and limits. Some don't take kindly to insults.

Second Amendment, authorizing a well-regulated militia for national security, grants citizens the right to bear arms in that militia. Our standing military renders the 2nd obsolete. And it doesn't say WHICH arms. Laws limit personal possession of much weaponry - spring switchblades and stilettos, Claymore mines, nukes, poison darts.

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But I really am having a hard time saying we need to have gun shops open at this time....
Are archery shops open? Bows & arrows are arms, too. So are squirtguns if loaded with gasoline. Is that legal? Anyway, sellers of knives, swords, clubs, tasers, mace, bear repellent, slingshots, and armed aerial drones are just as essential, right?

But of COURSE firearm sales are essential! Shoot them viroids! Shoot bacteria, too! It's them or us! But when they kill us, they eat us. That should be a requirement for people, too. Kill what you eat. Eat what you kill. It's only right.
  #105  
Old 04-17-2020, 03:53 PM
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Yes, most farmers will have a gun to shoot a dying animal, or dogs chasing livestock, or crows in the cornfield. But they already have them if they use them at all. The only reason to get all enraged over closing gunshops is OUR SECOND AMENDMENTS RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which is to say, only that part of the US which is violentcrazystupid is disturbed by such an edict. Of course that's at least a quarter.
I know you enjoy building up and attacking strawmen so much you had to break it up over two posts but the obvious answer you never even thought to consider is buying ammo. A lot of people only keep a few boxes of ammo at most, and in states like California where the only place you can legally buy ammo is a gun shop (selling or even giving ammo to a friend is actually illegal) if you shut down a gun shop you now no longer have access to ammo for your gun.
  #106  
Old 04-17-2020, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by russian heel View Post
...

Towns in New York and New Jersey banning leaf blowers because they are getting on peopleís nerves:

https://dnyuz.com/2020/04/09/meanwhi...-blower-drama/

California sheriff threatens to arrest and fine $1000 for not wearing a face mask:

https://www.the-sun.com/news/654495/...fines-arrests/..
1. Leafblowers do nothing but damage peoples hearing and the environment. I think they shoudl be banned everywhere, at all times.

2. No, he did not. Read your own cite. He just told people what the law was.
  #107  
Old 04-17-2020, 05:57 PM
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If anyone ever needs a handgun, and they havenít purchased one in the prior whatever years of their life since they were 21, their next option is to call the police... not take a drive down to the gun store and tell the assailant to hang on a few hours.
...
The police will not protect you. That is not their job. If you have a abusive ex that has now found you and you fear for your life- the police will do nothing to protect you. They will arrest the guy afterwards.

So there are quite a few instances where you might think you are in danger- not RIGHT NOW but soon. Death threats for example.

Wife moves into sisters house after abusive spouse beats her. He is now out on bail.
  #108  
Old 04-17-2020, 06:01 PM
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I've wondered how these rules and laws can ultimately pass muster with the first amendment with the right to peaceably assemble.
...
You do have that right. But they can demand you get a permit for a demonstration. Or put in a "free speech zone" or other reasonable infringements.

No right is absolute. You cant own kiddy porn. You cant spread nude pictures of people on the internet without their permission. You cant violate copyright.

You cant own a atomic bomb or a machine gun or a howitzer. You can't take your gun into a designated school zone. Etc.
  #109  
Old 04-17-2020, 06:09 PM
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....
Also, restrictions on public gatherings that are genuinely motivated by attempts to stop the spread of the virus--and only to stop the spread of the virus--might warrant restrictions on gun shops--along with everything else--though there might be ways to accommodate people's needs and desires short of closing down gun ships completely, like rules restricting (even sharply restricting) the number of customers who can be in the store at any moment. That could make gun purchases inconvenient and even difficult, especially if general demand is spiking, but at least it's not making them impossible.

But as Asuka alluded to, at least some of the desire to close down gun shops seems to be motivated by agendas unrelated to the need to combat the pandemic. (As are, of course, many if not most of the restrictions on abortion clinics.) From the Slate article "Why Some Democratic Governors Are Avoiding Closing Gun Stores During the Pandemic" from a few days ago:...".
Yeah, in Los Angeles that order to close gun stores was blatantly political.

Mind you, I worked in a sporting good store that sold fishing tackle and guns. The gun counter was never crowded. Easy to maintain social distancing. The customers had to stand on the other side of a counter, well away from the clerk and the guns.

Of course, I think people wanting to buy guns now, because of "the apocalypse" are stupid. But if you have a otherwise legit need for one, then you should be able to buy one. Keeping social distancing, etc. And if the PD said "No more than X number of people in the store at a time" that would be very reasonable.
  #110  
Old 04-17-2020, 06:14 PM
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nm

Last edited by DrDeth; 04-17-2020 at 06:17 PM.
  #111  
Old 04-17-2020, 06:15 PM
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They already have 'em. Don't most departments have stock to issue to new officers or replacements?
No. Some do, but most require you buy your own.
  #112  
Old 04-17-2020, 06:34 PM
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{...} You cant own {...} a machine gun {...}
For definitions of; 'you', 'own', and 'machine gun' that include the private ownership of machine guns.
YouTube gun Jesus isn't lying about the transferable, fully automatic, guns being regularly sold at auction.

CMC fnord!
  #113  
Old 04-17-2020, 06:38 PM
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Oh, come on. Do you expect anyone to take your point here seriously?
I do...since his point was that we live in crazy times and no one really seems to know what they are doing. Kind of like the DMV but nationwide.
  #114  
Old 04-17-2020, 06:43 PM
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A lot of people only keep a few boxes of ammo at most, and in states like California where the only place you can legally buy ammo is a gun shop (selling or even giving ammo to a friend is actually illegal) if you shut down a gun shop you now no longer have access to ammo for your gun.
Not that the stock of some of the most popular ammunition types is less cleaned out than that of toilet paper and sanitizer over the last three weeks... but yes, that is an issue if you already are not allowed to get it some other way.
  #115  
Old 04-17-2020, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by crowmanyclouds View Post
For definitions of; 'you', 'own', and 'machine gun' that include the private ownership of machine guns.
YouTube gun Jesus isn't lying about the transferable, fully automatic, guns being regularly sold at auction.

CMC fnord!
It is possible, in some states- but not CA*- and only after a special federal registration.

And due to the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986, which basically OUTLAWED any sale, to any civilian, of new automatic weapons. No license, no tax stamp, no nothing. Just BANNED new automatic firearms to civilians.



* nor in Washington, Illinois, Minnesota, Iowa, New York, Rhode Island, and Delaware.
  #116  
Old 04-18-2020, 07:37 AM
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Two weeks ago there was a sign on the door stating that no masks could be worn in the store because state law required them to verify the age of all purchasers and even with ID they could not do that with part of the face covered.

Today there was a different sign mandating that masks be worn pursuant to Gov. Hogan's order requiring face masks in all public stores still open. (Although it noted that the policy was not effective until tomorrow 4/18).
That's awesome!! That's the model around which science works as well. With new information we respond by modifying what we're doing.

This novel Coronavirus is not something we have experience with. I expect to see even more changes each time our understanding improves.
  #117  
Old 04-18-2020, 03:35 PM
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How about a link to an actual story with details.?

So he was violating an order and trespassing.
Wait, what? He did no such thing. He simply engaged in his First Amendment right (we still have the free speech part of it in effect, right?) to question the officers' actions. He didn't pull a gun or throw a punch or try to run away. He was fully within his rights to remonstrate with the officers about what they were doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Houston v. Hill, 482 U.S. 451 (1987)
The freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principal characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state.
When he did that, they got all Barney Fifey and demanded his identification and threatened him with being arrested if he refused to provide it, something that they have no right to do under any circumstances.

Notice that others were in the park and they were allowed to leave. This guy got arrested for contempt of cop, and the police department apologized for what happened.

Last edited by UltraVires; 04-18-2020 at 03:36 PM.
  #118  
Old 04-19-2020, 07:35 PM
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1. Leafblowers do nothing but damage peoples hearing and the environment. I think they shoudl be banned everywhere, at all times.

2. No, he did not. Read your own cite. He just told people what the law was.
Actually it does appear a resident got hit with the $1000 fine, but ironically I'm on the governments side on this one. A Los Angeles area paddleboarder or surfer was asked to get out of the water by lifeguards because the beach was closed. He stayed out there and a half hour later the police came out by boat, got him out and fined him $1000.

Sorry not only did you not listen, but put the cops at risk. The $1000 fine is more than fair.
  #119  
Old 04-20-2020, 05:45 PM
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I need a fucking hair cut! I live in a county that is up to a whopping 6 confirmed positives for covid-19, none have died or even spent time in the hospital. I will park outside and give you my phone number. Send me a text when my turn comes. I am not going to get sick because the barber touched my hair.

It feels to me like the Ms Grundys of the world finally have the power to regulate our behavior and are abusing it. I go to work 40 hours a week still. I go to the mini mart, the grocery store, Home Depot, auto parts store, fishing supply store. But I can't go get a fucking hair cut.
An Italian mayor was talking about residents who were breaking quarantine to get their hair done, and pointed out that it didn't matter what your hair looked like, as your funeral was going to be closed casket anyway.

You don't NEED a fucking hair cut, you WANT a fucking hair cut. Your desire to look pretty doesn't entitle you to risk others' health.
  #120  
Old 04-20-2020, 08:42 PM
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I need a fucking hair cut!
Why? Do you have a lice infestation?
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  #121  
Old 04-21-2020, 02:35 AM
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To those needing haircuts: MrsRico scissors mine but not yours. I'm due for another soon to avoid the Bozo look.

Sacrificing a full beard for face masks, I did my own close shave with an Aldis electric hair trimmer, half the price of dog trimmers at Walmart. I stood on the back porch looking into a mirror as a breeze wafted my trimmings into the forest. With wraparound mirrors and MrsRico not available, I could have done my scalp for that punk vibe.
  #122  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:44 AM
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Agreed. Declaring gunshops non-essential is the same thing as Texas declaring abortion clinics' work as non-essential. Same totalitarian bullshit, just slightly different versions.
If they close the bookstores they can close the gunshops. ALL AMENDMENTS MATTER!!!!!
  #123  
Old 04-22-2020, 04:12 AM
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If they close the bookstores they can close the gunshops. ALL AMENDMENTS MATTER!!!!!
Let's see, Trimp has broken all fifteen (smash!) ten commandments, exhausted all seven deadly sins, and is now working at violating provisions in all constitutional articles. Some amendments are easy pickings. Expect troops quartered in your home any time now.
  #124  
Old 04-22-2020, 07:18 AM
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Wait, what? He did no such thing. He simply engaged in his First Amendment right (we still have the free speech part of it in effect, right?) to question the officers' actions. He didn't pull a gun or throw a punch or try to run away. He was fully within his rights to remonstrate with the officers about what they were doing.



When he did that, they got all Barney Fifey and demanded his identification and threatened him with being arrested if he refused to provide it, something that they have no right to do under any circumstances.

Notice that others were in the park and they were allowed to leave. This guy got arrested for contempt of cop, and the police department apologized for what happened.
What a bizarre analysis.

I'm a cop, and I see a bunch of people breaking the law. My goal is to get people to stop breaking the law, and I have a bunch of tools at my disposal, including:
1) Tell them to knock it off.
2) Issue a written citation.
3) Arrest.

I tell them to knock it off, and most of them do so. Great! I'm persuaded that they'll stop breaking the law.

One of them insists he's not breaking the law and argues with me. I'm not persuaded he's gonna stop, obviously.

So I decide to issue a citation. That's going to require knowing who he is. But he refuses to show me ID. I can't do that one.

That's where the cuffs come in.

His crime was trespass. He refused to let milder remedies work, so the cop escalated to more severe remedies.
  #125  
Old 04-22-2020, 07:38 AM
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And I see you said pretty much the same thing earlier in the thread:
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I've read several stories of people getting fined for violating these executive orders, but when you read the articles, without fail, the police attempted to warn the people and let them go on their way, but the people they warned basically told the officer to go get fucked that this was the United States of America and that they would do whatever they damned well pleased and the officer was pretty much forced to issue a citation.
What changed?
  #126  
Old 04-22-2020, 09:41 AM
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And I see you said pretty much the same thing earlier in the thread:

What changed?
I'm not UV but there's arguably a difference between playing barracks lawyer with a cop and outright telling him to pound sand.
  #127  
Old 04-22-2020, 11:35 AM
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I'm not UV but there's arguably a difference between playing barracks lawyer with a cop and outright telling him to pound sand.
Well, yes. But if a cop has the right to arrest me and chooses not to do so, and then changes his mind because it looks like I'm not going to comply with a lesser means of persuasion, I'm not sure it matters whether I am standing there trying to persuade the cop that I'm right, or standing there saying I'm right without trying to persuade the cop.
  #128  
Old 04-22-2020, 12:36 PM
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Expect troops quartered in your home any time now.
Fucking Hessians!
  #129  
Old 04-22-2020, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
So I decide to issue a citation. That's going to require knowing who he is. But he refuses to show me ID. I can't do that one.

That's where the cuffs come in.
No police officer was ever able to issue a citation from the beginnings of the common law until the mid-20th century because of the lack of photo ID?

What you are saying is that if I leave my wallet in my house to walk over the park, I face an increased chance of arrest, that is unless I be a good little boy and surrender my free speech rights.

But to your other point, if he takes it so far as to say "I'm not trespassing. I don't believe you, and I'm not leaving so fuck you and that your little citation too" then he does leave the officer with no other option but to arrest him. He has engaged in his free speech right yet he continues to violate the law.

That is not what happened here. The officer just asked for ID. He is not required to show ID, nor is there a suggestion that the officer wanted to issue him a citation, but the undisputed facts are that this guy was doing the same thing a lot of others were. He was detained for exercising his right to question the police officer's actions. They made an unlawful demand of him and arrested him in front of his six year old daughter for not complying with their unlawful demand and for playing ball with his daughter in a public park.

None of that disturbs you?
  #130  
Old 04-22-2020, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
...

So I decide to issue a citation. That's going to require knowing who he is. But he refuses to show me ID. I can't do that one.
..
He has to identify himself. But not show 'his papers".

Note that the PD in question apologized and said they were wrong.

Last edited by DrDeth; 04-22-2020 at 05:08 PM.
  #131  
Old 04-22-2020, 05:11 PM
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Note also that the Dept in question apologized, and admitted "over-reaching".
  #132  
Old 04-23-2020, 03:15 AM
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OP asked for MOST BLATANT government overreach. If this is the worst it gets, I'll not work myself into a frenzy.

The PD apologized for the officer's "overreach". But was it? The news story says, "Police arrived soon after, Mooney said, telling him and others in the area to leave because the park was closed." The park was closed. That is trespass.

It continues, "Mooney said he told officers that he was familiar with the posted rules and believed he and his family were in compliance and practicing proper social distancing. He said he refused to provide his identification when officers asked for it because he had not broken any law." He argued over a police order. I have found it very unwise to argue with police when ordered to act, even if obeying causes damage, as I have experienced. Refusing a legitimate police order is a sure path to handcuffs.

Numerous morons have gathered in defiance of emergency proclamations and failed to disperse when ordered. Shooting those contagious scofflaws would likely be overreach. Would a blast from a firehose be more reasonable?
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