Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 04-14-2020, 06:47 PM
Saintly Loser is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatterdemalion View Post
Are you saying you disagree with me?

If idiots want to vote against the only people who are actually trying to help them, because they are also trying to help people who aren't white, then to hell with them. They deserve everything they get.
Yes. We must cast the less educated, the less well-informed, out of the Party. And we righteous few will bask in our superiority and our purity.

Yeah, that'll work.
  #52  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:00 PM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 17,518
In addition, one huge contributor to Trump's vote was/is that many conservatives are convinced that they, not liberals, are the ones who have been "taking the high road" for the longest time, and that it is time for them to stop taking the high road.

Read this Town Hall post (it's full of invective, and the writing can be quite inane or juvenile, but it gives a sense of the mindset of people who feel this way.)

Quote:
What about when they hit conservatives with a lock in a sock and the liberal media didn’t care? Yeah, what about that? Where was the sackcloth and ashes act from Schumer, Pelosi, and Felonia von Pantsuit when our side was being bloodied and beaten? There wasn’t one, because the left supports us getting bloodied and beaten. It likes the zesty zing of violence. It makes them feel big and tough and edgy, except that it starts being a heck of a lot less fun when we right-wingers start adopting the same rules and punching back.

The left is shocked that the right has now stopped caring about the old rules, since for so long the left relied on the right to subordinate its human instincts and conform to those rules even when the left ignored them. We refused to stoop to their level, and for a long time, we were “better than that.” But you can only have one side being “better than that” for so long before people get sick of being the butt of the hypocrisy.
  #53  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:15 PM
Tatterdemalion is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintly Loser View Post
Yes. We must cast the less educated, the less well-informed, out of the Party. And we righteous few will bask in our superiority and our purity.

Yeah, that'll work.
We righteous few have actually been the majority in the last 2 national elections.
  #54  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:25 PM
Saintly Loser is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatterdemalion View Post
We righteous few have actually been the majority in the last 2 national elections.
So what? That's not how presidential elections work. It doesn't matter.

We righteous few lost the last election to those on whom you look down. Obviously, we're not doing it right.
  #55  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:46 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
Yes, that's what I keep hearing. But I don't see how that translates to Donald Trump. He share's middle class American values of being a billionaire?

"Racism" is too easy an explanation. Plenty of old white guys ran in 2016.
You're right about there being 16 other old white guys running in 2016 GOP. Some of them quite wealthy or backed by wealthy influential conservative PACs. So what differentiated Trump? If memory serves he introduced himself as the most bigoted, most loudmouthed, most anti-intellectual, candidate. Everybody, including the GOP said he wasn't a serious candidate, too divisive, too inexperienced, couldn't possibly win. The rest is history.

He captured the hearts and minds of right wing voters by appealing to their most base instincts of fear, bias nativity, greed and insecurity. "Racism" may sound like too easy of an explanation, but the right answer is not always complicated. Especially when you look at history and recall how most authoritarians gain and maintain power.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #56  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:55 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintly Loser View Post
We righteous few lost the last election to those on whom you look down. Obviously, we're not doing it right.
What does "doing it right" look like?

Because most progressives/liberals/moderate democrats don't advocate for the denial of human rights to republicans/right-wing/conservatives. We don't say they can't prey how they want, vote, love who they want, be denied social & health benefits. Many of us call them ignorant or stupid for wanting to deny that to others and themselves, but we don't say they are not entitled to the same rights we seek for all.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #57  
Old 04-14-2020, 08:02 PM
Wesley Clark's Avatar
Wesley Clark is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 23,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
Yeah, its a one-way street. Liberals leaders and media are urging their members to seek out an understanding of what drives the heartland conservative, but there isn't a push on the other side to try to understand the liberal point of view.

The reason for this imbalance is that the notion of trying to understand your oppositions point of view in order to reach an understanding with them is itself a liberal idea. Its just another layer of multiculturalism. To ask conservatives to understand where minorities, immigrants, gays and inner city residents are coming from is basically asking them to become liberal. The culture war is fundamentally about their insistence that they not be forced to understand and tolerate alternative points of view, and arguments drawn form the desire to come to an understanding have as much chance of succeeding with conservatives, as would an argument to atheists that they should oppose abortion because it says so in the bible.
People hold onto political power by any means necessary. Thats why we have dictatorships, because the people in charge of the dictatorship enjoy the status, privilege and wealth that comes from it. And people will do a lot of cruel, inhumane things to protect status and privilege.

On a much more subtle level, thats what being part of an in-group is all about. As the in-group, you are considered the default. Thats why for the longest time we defaulted to using 'he' as a generic gender pronoun, and why crayons used to call peach colored crayons 'flesh colored'. Or for the longest time in teh US if you said you were religious people just assumed you were christian.There is a psychological benefit of being the in-group, as well as various material benefits (better jobs, politicians care about your problems more, more wealth, cops are more respectful, etc). People desperately want to hold onto those benefits.

The idea that a white man can commit a mass atrocity and its just written off as a mental health issue while everytime a black person, muslim or illegal immigrant does it is used to paint everyone with that attribute in a bad light is part of the whole thing.

Point being, there are certain privileges to being the in-group (white, male, christian, native born) and the people who enjoy and identify with those benefits are not giving those up to have to live in a multicultural society where they lose that status.

I think its entirely possible for the left to understand the right, its just that we aren't going to like what we find. There is no Bernie Sanders esqe economic argument we can make to Trumps base that will appeal to them despite what some on the left want to believe. We can't promise these people better jobs, better benefits and better wages since they are motivated by maintaining the status and power of their in-groups, not by economics. They want to live in a society where cops, business owners, the media and politicians treat white people and christians better than black people and muslims. No economic argument can change that.

Then on top of that, a lot of people on the right are ashamed of their own beliefs and engage in double think, so if you ask them directly they won't give you a direct answer. These same people who think Trump is the most honest politician around or who believe ABC is biased but fox news is unbiased aren't going to say defending in-group status is what motivates their support for him. They'll find some more socially acceptable answer, and most don't have the insight into sociology to even understand their own motivations anyway.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 04-14-2020 at 08:05 PM.
  #58  
Old 04-14-2020, 08:44 PM
guizot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: An East Hollywood dingbat
Posts: 9,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Clark View Post
He's a tough guy who won't put up with America being pushed around by foreign countries, illegal immigrants, socialists, social justice warriors, and anti-Christians, to name a few. And all those ostentatious displays of wealth are just signs that American capitalism works.
That's what he would like to believe, but of course it's a total bullshit act. He's a total fraud and a fake. A bullshit reality TV show. But he knows how to pull one over on dupes who watch too much reality TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gytalf2000 View Post
Excellent analysis. I think you pegged it pretty well.
No -- it's a waste of empathy. LET ME REPEAT: it's a total bullshit act. He's a total fraud and a fake. A bullshit reality TV show. But he knows how to pull one over on dupes who watch too much reality TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
His words are typically unapologetically nationalistic and since the last time I looked at a globe it was divided into nations I can see how that resonates with those who donít want to live in a world with no borders and free everything.
Do I have to say it again???? OK--LET ME REPEAT: He's a total bullshit act. He's a total fraud and a fake. A bullshit reality TV show. But he knows how to pull one over on dupes who watch too much reality TV.

That's all there is to it.
  #59  
Old 04-14-2020, 09:29 PM
MaxTheVool is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 12,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by leahcim View Post
People keep telling me about city people who talk about "flyover country", but I've never actually heard the term used except by rural people talking about what what they think city people think of them.

In my experience, real "city mice" don't think about rural people at all, or if they do they have the same agrarian fantasy about what it's like that country music does.
This is absolutely my experience as well. The number of times I've heard anyone refer to flyover country non-ironically is either zero or very close to it. It's basically a hoax, a joke, a straw man at this point. "Hey, look at dem coastal people, they think they're better than you, they refer to your state as 'flyover country' ". I mean, we don't, but of course they don't believe us...

(Of course the situation is more complicated now, because I do, in fact, feel contempt for Trump voters. But not all rural people in the middle of the country voted for Trump.)
__________________
This post is merely corroborative detail, intended to add artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative
  #60  
Old 04-14-2020, 09:46 PM
guizot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: An East Hollywood dingbat
Posts: 9,119
Of course. All this nonsense about the urban/rural divide, or the forgotten white working class, is just the bullshit narrative that the Republican Party has been spinning to survive, and which has set the stage for Trump.

It's not that complicated, folks. We are a nation that is nearly half made up of mentally lazy, gullible dupes, who got that way by sitting on their ass watching too much bullshit TV.

Trump doesn't know much, but he knows that there is a sucker born every minute.
  #61  
Old 04-14-2020, 09:57 PM
Tatterdemalion is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintly Loser View Post
So what? That's not how presidential elections work. It doesn't matter.

We righteous few lost the last election to those on whom you look down. Obviously, we're not doing it right.
Actually, I think it does matter.

About half of America are self-righteous welfare leeches. Mostly they live in rural America, because they don't have what it takes to make it in real life.

Too many people here have had it too good for too long. That is about to change, I infuriates me that they will take the rest of us with them.

Rural America needs to wake up and discover what it means to work for a living. Instead of living on government handouts.
  #62  
Old 04-14-2020, 09:58 PM
sitchensis is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: revillagigedo
Posts: 2,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by leahcim View Post
People keep telling me about city people who talk about "flyover country", but I've never actually heard the term used except by rural people talking about what what they think city people think of them.

In my experience, real "city mice" don't think about rural people at all, or if they do they have the same agrarian fantasy about what it's like that country music does.
This is my point. Real "city mice" weren't thinking about rural people at all when they donated money to environmental groups that shut down logging operations and killed many small towns. Now the forests are burning up, but the same groups are making it so you can't even salvage dead trees.

Real "city mice" aren't thinking of rural people at all when they push for no coal exports, or no coal on the railways that pass through town.

The Mom and Pop trucking company that can't operate in California because their trucks are a little to old.

The back hoe operator that now needs a million dollar bond to get a contract with the county. He loses out to the big city operator, who can come in take all the profit and leave. The big city guy doesn't do day-to-day small jobs everybody needs but aren't as profitable. The whole community loses with no one to blame.

It's little things but they add up.

I personally know a small automotive salvage yard that had to spend 80k to buy a parking lot cleaner. The State would send in a guy to test the dust in the parking lot and they kept failing for heavy metals. Never mind the public roads next to the parking lot with 10,000 times more traffic.

There is an incredible amount of frustration with bureaucracy and government. They see one side wanting more rules and one side wanting less. They also feel that hard physical work should be rewarded and that is increasingly not the case.
  #63  
Old 04-14-2020, 10:28 PM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 37,558
If they think it's "city people" who are changing the rules to favor big business then they need to look into which city people it is. It's the Republicans they keep voting for.
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.
  #64  
Old 04-15-2020, 07:06 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatterdemalion View Post
Actually, I think it does matter.

About half of America are self-righteous welfare leeches. Mostly they live in rural America, because they don't have what it takes to make it in real life.

Too many people here have had it too good for too long. That is about to change, I infuriates me that they will take the rest of us with them.

Rural America needs to wake up and discover what it means to work for a living. Instead of living on government handouts.
This is all kinds of wrong. Rural America puts food on our tables. They deserve our appreciation for their hard work. We can question their politics but not their work ethic. You should take this back or at least never say this again.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #65  
Old 04-15-2020, 09:44 AM
Dark Sponge's Avatar
Dark Sponge is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 138
It really doesn't have anything to do with racism or sexism or any type of discrimination. That's what those on the left spew when they want to degrade and don't want to understand. There is a small minority of racists on both the right and left. On the left this is usually more benign; like using simpler words when talking with a person of color, etc but it does exist and it is racism.

What unites the right is hatred for the policies of the left. Trump is seen as a lesser evil.

Last edited by Dark Sponge; 04-15-2020 at 09:48 AM.
  #66  
Old 04-15-2020, 09:47 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Sponge View Post
What unites the right is hatred for the policies of left.
Policies such as?...
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #67  
Old 04-15-2020, 09:52 AM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 17,518
IMHO, a lot of liberals do not grasp that people don't just want to be policy-represented, they want to be viewpoint-represented.

Many Democrats say things like, "Rural Americans vote against their own interest by voting for the GOP which cuts Social Security and benefits, deports illegal immigrants, limits women's access to abortion, etc."..............not realizing that for voters, such things are only a small slice of the bigger picture. People want someone who they feel airs their views and makes them feel good and respected. And they won't vote for someone who demeans them ("rural folk are ignorant hillbillies who need to submit to their educated superiors") no matter how much that person's policy stance may help them.
  #68  
Old 04-15-2020, 10:00 AM
Dark Sponge's Avatar
Dark Sponge is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
Policies such as?...
Abortion is a good example. Most of them are pro-birth control but vehemently anti-abortion. They believe babies are dying every day and it really pisses them off. The motivation isn't to hurt women or to control anyone; just to stop the babies from dying.

They find it very difficult to understand the other side of the argument and, like their left-wing counterparts, are quick to dismiss and label those who disagree with them.
  #69  
Old 04-15-2020, 10:03 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
IMHO, a lot of liberals do not grasp that people don't just want to be policy-represented, they want to be viewpoint-represented.

Many Democrats say things like, "Rural Americans vote against their own interest by voting for the GOP which cuts Social Security and benefits, deports illegal immigrants, limits women's access to abortion, etc."..............not realizing that for voters, such things are only a small slice of the bigger picture. People want someone who they feel airs their views and makes them feel good and respected. And they won't vote for someone who demeans them ("rural folk are ignorant hillbillies who need to submit to their educated superiors") no matter how much that person's policy stance may help them.
With all due respect, we are living with the consequences of the 2016 election when their views were respected and they were made to feel good.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #70  
Old 04-15-2020, 10:11 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Sponge View Post
Abortion is a good example. Most of them are pro-birth control but vehemently anti-abortion. They believe babies are dying every day and it really pisses them off. The motivation isn't to hurt women or to control anyone; just to stop the babies from dying.

They find it very difficult to understand the other side of the argument and, like their left-wing counterparts, are quick to dismiss and label those who disagree with them.
It's a well traveled road, the abortion topic. Each side knows quite well what the other is going to say with respect to when life begins and where pro-life interests end. We don't need another guided tour.

I'll just add that it is possible to feel passionately about a position and yet be completely wrong. For Pro-Life, this is one of those times.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #71  
Old 04-15-2020, 10:21 AM
Dark Sponge's Avatar
Dark Sponge is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
I'll just add that it is possible to feel passionately about a position and yet be completely wrong. For Pro-Life, this is one of those times.
Alas, that is what the Pro-Slavery party thought as well. I see a great deal of similarity between the fight over slavery and the fight over abortion.

Today we look back and wonder how anyone could think having dark skin would make someone less human. I personally think in 200 years those in 2220 will look back and wonder why anyone would think very young humans weren't human.
  #72  
Old 04-15-2020, 10:42 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Sponge View Post
Alas, that is what the Pro-Slavery party thought as well. I see a great deal of similarity between the fight over slavery and the fight over abortion.
I must remind you, it was the most conservative who held pro-slavery views well past the time that the rest of the world moved on. It is again the conservatives who want to put limits women's reproductive rights. So you're right, there are similarities to be sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Sponge View Post
Today we look back and wonder how anyone could think having dark skin would make someone less human. I personally think in 200 years those in 2220 will look back and wonder why anyone would think very young humans weren't human.
That is demonstrably not where science, medicine and society is headed.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #73  
Old 04-15-2020, 11:03 AM
Tatterdemalion is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 871
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
This is all kinds of wrong. Rural America puts food on our tables. They deserve our appreciation for their hard work. We can question their politics but not their work ethic. You should take this back or at least never say this again.
I get really tired of this shit. Food growers are every much a replaceable resource as I am to my employer.

Rural people either need to shut up and take it like the rest of us, or quit shitting all over the people who are trying to make things better for the rest of us. They can either quit sucking off the federal teat, or give some gratitude to the people who feed them.

The precepts of the sainted Thomas Jefferson notwithstanding, rural people are any more privileged than the rest of us who are trying to make a living. The "yeoman farmer" is about equivalent to the "noble savage" as a concept that deserves any respect.

They're equivalent in a lot of ways actually.
  #74  
Old 04-15-2020, 11:28 AM
BobLibDem is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Home 07 NCAA HockeyChamps
Posts: 22,356
If you want to see what they see in the Orange Toddler in Chief, just look at your Facebook feed. The MAGAbots are hateful, fearful, bigoted, and xenophobic. DJT plays on their fears. Here are some samples from my Facebook feed:

Quote:
Here is all I want: Obama: GONE! Borders: CLOSED! Language: ENGLISH! Culture: US CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS! Drug Free: MANDATORY SCREENING BEFORE WELFARE!
They're STILL posting shit like this with Obama gone for 3+ years. This post has been around since Obama took office and still circulates today, spreading its hate for those who aren't straight white male Christian Americans.


Quote:
Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept, 11, hurricanes and earthquakes. Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?" In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school .... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK. Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide - [meant Grandson]). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK. Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."
This gem has been around for a long long time with various attribution. They're STILL pissed that they can't FORCE children to say THEIR prayers in school. They're STILL pissed at Benjamin Spock as if everybody in the US was bound to follow his advice. They want the good old days where everybody had to praise Jesus in church and parents could beat the shit out of their kids and brag about it.

Quote:
Boy, wouldn't it be nice if we had that money blown on the impeachment to help Americans now?
Wouldn't it be nicer if we didn't have a president who boasted about committing extortion and didn't have to be impeached?

Nothing but fear and hatred wrapped up in lies. People have learned to exploit them by getting them all riled up about stuff that isn't true. If you read Facebook news feeds, you learn that:
  • Congressmen can retire with full pay after one term
  • Congress voted against raises in Social Security and gave themselves a big raise
  • Congress stole trillions from the Social Security Trust Fund
  • "Illegals" get health care and Social Security benefits for free
  • The H1N1 virus was much worse than Corona and was entirely Obama's fault
  • Obama gave $150 billion of taxpayer money to Iran

You have a bunch of people all pissed off about stuff that isn't even true, hate anyone who doesn't look like them and pray like them. It is no surprise that they support a guy who gets all pissed off about stuff that isn't even true and hates anyone that doesn't look like him?
  #75  
Old 04-15-2020, 11:32 AM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 37,558
It's a class of people -- white, straight, Christian, etc. -- who are desperate to preserve their privileged status but desperate to deny that they have any privilege.

All this stuff about "the people who make our food" is irrelevant. Being a farmer doesn't require you to cling to privilege based on bigotry and inequality.
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.
  #76  
Old 04-15-2020, 11:36 AM
songsearch is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
Maybe I've been living in a "NYC bubble" too long, but I still can't figure out what Middle America sees in Donald Trump. It's been explained to me by conservative and Republican friends, but their explanations don't really lend any insight.

What I mean is this. I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that Trump is the personification of "big business" and overt displays of wealth. But these don't seem to be values that Middle Americans seem to share. I would think they would be turned off by someone like Trump, as they would those "fat cats on Wall Street".

John McCain or any of the George Bushes I understand. But the appeal of Trump to anyone outside of people who follow hedge funds and real estate development still continues to elude me.
I believe he's popular with his base because he's not a professional, life-long politician. Face it, most Americans are average people and don't feel a connection to the elites in DC. An outsider with rough edges is appealing to rural America. He likely reminds them of someone they know, or at least someone they can understand. The profession politicians are masters of obsfuscation and Trump is blunt and doesn't mince words. We like that.
  #77  
Old 04-15-2020, 11:43 AM
Ashtura is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 2,974
A big component is he doesn't cast aspersions on them like the left does

If it comes down to picking between the side that calls you the best people on earth, and another side that calls you racist, sexist, xenophobic homophobes (and all the other stuff listed above), they'll pick the former. Every time. It doesn't matter if they are true or not.

Democratic pols may not personally say these things, but he represents the people that do. Trump is a pulsating middle finger against those people.
  #78  
Old 04-15-2020, 11:45 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by songsearch View Post
I believe he's popular with his base because he's not a professional, life-long politician. Face it, most Americans are average people and don't feel a connection to the elites in DC. An outsider with rough edges is appealing to rural America. He likely reminds them of someone they know, or at least someone they can understand. The profession politicians are masters of obsfuscation and Trump is blunt and doesn't mince words. We like that.
You like the fact that he is lying whenever his lips are moving? Unless of course he's shifting blame, insulting minorities, undermining federal agencies, and repeating incoherent babble. Is this the kind of "blunt" talk that you value?
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #79  
Old 04-15-2020, 11:59 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 64,066
Quote:
Originally Posted by songsearch View Post
I believe he's popular with his base because he's not a professional, life-long politician. Face it, most Americans are average people and don't feel a connection to the elites in DC. An outsider with rough edges is appealing to rural America. He likely reminds them of someone they know, or at least someone they can understand. The profession politicians are masters of obsfuscation and Trump is blunt and doesn't mince words. We like that.
I grew up in northern Idaho, but I never knew(let alone were friends with) any ignorant, bigoted con-men. Please explain why I should identify and/or support Trump.
  #80  
Old 04-15-2020, 12:09 PM
Buck Godot's Avatar
Buck Godot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: MD outside DC
Posts: 6,506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
All this stuff about "the people who make our food" is irrelevant. Being a farmer doesn't require you to cling to privilege based on bigotry and inequality.
Not to mention that the people who actually work hard, hands in the soil, to put food on the table, look to the migrant worker from south of the border. But that doesn't fit the narrative.
  #81  
Old 04-15-2020, 12:34 PM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 37,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by songsearch View Post
I believe he's popular with his base because he's not a professional, life-long politician. Face it, most Americans are average people and don't feel a connection to the elites in DC. An outsider with rough edges is appealing to rural America. He likely reminds them of someone they know, or at least someone they can understand. The profession politicians are masters of obsfuscation and Trump is blunt and doesn't mince words. We like that.
Trump isn't a master of obfuscation?

The only things that Trump is blunt about are his racism, narcissism, sexism, ignorance, incompetence, corruption, irresponsibility, and his complete disregard for anything and anyone but himself.

Sure, he doesn't mince words. If by that you mean he just says whatever he wants and then turns around and says exactly the opposite when it suits him.

That's what folks like you like?
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.
  #82  
Old 04-15-2020, 12:39 PM
Boycott is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 607
They're the people who constantly say they don't care about celebrity opinions until it's Jon Voight, James Woods and Roseanne Barr in which case they're all over those celebrity opinions.
  #83  
Old 04-15-2020, 01:45 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,920
To answer the OP: Why shouldn't they?

In the semi-recent past, a particular progressive Democrat was accused of nefarious things by the right-leaning media. To the extent that these allegations were mentioned in the left-leaning media, they simply said, "There's no evidence to support these allegations". I looked at the allegations, double-checked that the evidence which had been provided proved true and to the extent that I was able to do so, everything that had been said was independently verifiable.

Later, one left-leaning source did a follow-up article where they stated what their methodology was for ascertaining that everything was a lie created by a troll. That methodology was to perform a 5 second Google search and look at the page titles in the search results. All of those search results were angry progressives posting about the topic, from after the incident in question, calling the accuser a liar and troll. I changed the search range to exclude anything after the incident and read posts by and about the accuser and they seemed to be a respected, reasonable person.

Fast-forwarding to the impeachment of Donald Trump, the one thing that I called for the House managers to do was to build a full case against the man. I believed that they needed to start from the beginning and establish that Trump was a crook and conman and that it was reasonable and correct to assume, based on his past and basic character, that everyone's assumption that he had nefarious intent in his activities with Ukraine should be taken as fair and reasonable.

I've read enough about him to know that such a read is correct and that the assumptions made by everyone - Volkman, etc. - were just the obvious. But your average person reads the news and they never see any big attempt to prove anything, just to assert it, and it's not difficult to find examples where those assertions are clearly specious.

I mean, if I say that "there's no evidence" well...how did I determine that? Did I do a six second Google search? Did I go and sit in a dark closet for 5 minutes and shout, "No no no!" while covering my ears? Or did I go talk to all the interested parties, a few insiders, experts, etc.? Only one of those is authoritative in any way but from "there's no evidence" it's impossible for me, the reader, to ascertain what was actually done before the person came to that conclusion.

Reasonable people who read most media sources realize that those sources have some a priori assumptions that guide them. You don't need to prove that Trump is a conman. It's already "known". You don't need to defend a progressive Democrat, their innocence is implicit.

And, the important thing in all of this, is that there's no media source which says how they reached their conclusions. They never state their methodology. They rarely go back to cite older articles and, often, when they do the older articles don't really match what the new article says it said.

Basically, Middle America reads their media and buys into it because they have no reason to buy into anything else. Likewise, Coastal America reads their media and buys into it because they have no reason to buy into anything else. It's all surface layer only, whichever group you happen to be a part of. And both sides are largely just taking free material (when it comes to politics) from politicians and running with it, as a lazy way to make content day-to-day.

To get Middle America, the left-leaning media would need to present their work and that would mean, for one, to go back to the beginning and prove their a priori assumptions.

They should.

They won't. If Adam Schiff can't be talked into running Trump into the ground, in a reasonable and professional fashion, I hold no hope that the New York Times will.
  #84  
Old 04-15-2020, 01:50 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,293
This is going predictably the way all these discussions go:

Libtard: What is the deal with you and Trump?

MAGATS: We want to be heard and our views respected!

Libtard: Which views, for example?

MAGATS: Abortion kills babies! Protect our borders! LGBTQ makes baby Jesus cry! Respect our religion! Don't tread on us!

Libtard: Not this shit again. Do you see how that's bigoted?

MAGATS: See? You just called us racist again! TRUMP2020!
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #85  
Old 04-15-2020, 02:44 PM
msmith537 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,148
Quote:
Originally Posted by songsearch View Post
I believe he's popular with his base because he's not a professional, life-long politician. Face it, most Americans are average people and don't feel a connection to the elites in DC. An outsider with rough edges is appealing to rural America. He likely reminds them of someone they know, or at least someone they can understand. The profession politicians are masters of obsfuscation and Trump is blunt and doesn't mince words. We like that.
I think it's a mistake to assume that all conservatives and Republicans are farmers and hicks. A lot of the conservatives I know live in farm country only an hour or so outside of New York City, but they don't work on them. Many are dentists, lawyers, corporate managers and other professionals.

They are also very "ordinary" in the sense that, for the most part, there is not a lot that distinguishes them from each other. They all sort of dress alike, think alike, probably make around the same income range, live in similar suburban homes (maybe some smaller or larger than others), work the same sort of jobs, have the same sort of education background.

I think it is this "ordinariness" that gives the a sense of comfort and normalcy. They remind me of (and in some cases were) people in high school who place a high importance on "fitting in". Almost militantly so.

Middle America doesn't see themselves as "racist" or homophobic because they, by and large, aren't out there burning crosses and dressing up in vintage Nazi regalia. But they do view people who are different from them as "others", to be tolerated at best.

Middle America seems to have a great deal of respect for "following the rules". You follow the rules or you expect to be chewed out - your parents, teachers, coach, boss, the cops, God, whoever.

So I think what Middle America sees in Trump is some guy who is a well known celebrity businessman (therefore successful) telling them that their Middle America way is morally correct. And they appreciate his authoritative "tough talk" because he is chewing out anyone who isn't following "the rules".
  #86  
Old 04-15-2020, 02:49 PM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 17,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
This is going predictably the way all these discussions go:

Libtard: What is the deal with you and Trump?

MAGATS: We want to be heard and our views respected!

Libtard: Which views, for example?

MAGATS: Abortion kills babies! Protect our borders! LGBTQ makes baby Jesus cry! Respect our religion! Don't tread on us!

Libtard: Not this shit again. Do you see how that's bigoted?

MAGATS: See? You just called us racist again! TRUMP2020!

Exactly. Such threads usually last about 10-20 posts on topic before it devolves into arguing as to why someone shouldn't support Trump, rather than the original question (asking why people do support Trump.) The nature of the question completely shifts.


Asking - in a non-heated, objective, rational way - why some people support the KKK, or Nazis, or ISIS, is entirely different than a finger-pointing shouting match over why people shouldn't support those ideologies.
  #87  
Old 04-15-2020, 03:09 PM
bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 19,684
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
I think it's a mistake to assume that all conservatives and Republicans are farmers and hicks. A lot of the conservatives I know live in farm country only an hour or so outside of New York City, but they don't work on them. Many are dentists, lawyers, corporate managers and other professionals.

They are also very "ordinary" in the sense that, for the most part, there is not a lot that distinguishes them from each other. They all sort of dress alike, think alike, probably make around the same income range, live in similar suburban homes (maybe some smaller or larger than others), work the same sort of jobs, have the same sort of education background.
That's a good point; here in suburban NE Dallas, there's pretty wide range of political opinions- all the way from fairly left/progressive types to hardcore MAGA-hat wearing Trumpers.

And in general, ALL of us are:
  • White
  • Upper Middle-class
  • College educated
  • White collar
  • Parents
  • Homeowners

The distinguishing factors seems to be,as best I can tell, age and religious affiliation followed by something less definable- some kind of viewpoint difference on the world. Like the Trumpers seem to have a very threatened/insecure mentality, where their families and their associated community are viewed as under threat by everything from without, which would include poor people, black people, immigrants/foreigners, Hispanics, and all the combinations thereof.

The rest of us seem to have a less in-group/out-group mentality, can see the bigger picture, or are more pragmatic instead of dogmatic. But I'd guess most of it is a lack of fear- we're not afraid of poor black people from the south side of town, nor are we incensed that our city tax money might go to help homeless people instead of being spent on cops and firemen.

So it's a fair bet that most older, Baptist/Evangelical people in our area are going to be staunch Trumpers, while people under say... 50 are going to be less likely to fall into that group.
  #88  
Old 04-15-2020, 03:13 PM
msmith537 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,148
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
MAGATS: Abortion kills babies! Protect our borders! LGBTQ makes baby Jesus cry! Respect our religion! Don't tread on us!
Other than border, I haven't heard trump talk a lot about these other issues.

I feel like Trump is kind of like a Republican Rorschach blob. He paints himself up in the grotesque MAGA caricature of a Republican but says nothing and people see what they want to see.
  #89  
Old 04-15-2020, 03:15 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
Other than border, I haven't heard trump talk a lot about these other issues.

I feel like Trump is kind of like a Republican Rorschach blob. He paints himself up in the grotesque MAGA caricature of a Republican but says nothing and people see what they want to see.
Would you characterize, say, his Supreme Court picks as Rorschach blobs?
  #90  
Old 04-15-2020, 03:17 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
Middle America seems to have a great deal of respect for "following the rules". You follow the rules or you expect to be chewed out - your parents, teachers, coach, boss, the cops, God, whoever.

So I think what Middle America sees in Trump is some guy who is a well known celebrity businessman (therefore successful) telling them that their Middle America way is morally correct. And they appreciate his authoritative "tough talk" because he is chewing out anyone who isn't following "the rules".
Seems to me, they only enforce the rules they like and show disdain for the rest. Just like Trump who has made it a matter of his campaign promise to break all the standing rules of government.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #91  
Old 04-15-2020, 03:28 PM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 37,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post

The distinguishing factors seems to be,as best I can tell, age and religious affiliation followed by something less definable- some kind of viewpoint difference on the world.
Some studies suggest that American conservatives are more sensitive to things like fear and disgust than liberals are.

The following articles, I believe, are about the same set of studies, but phrase the ideas in different ways --

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...olitical-wars/

Quote:
Psychologists have found that conservatives are fundamentally more anxious than liberals, which may be why they typically desire stability, structure and clear answers even to complicated questions.

...

Liberals, he says, tend to value two of them: caring for people who are vulnerable and fairness, which for liberals tends to mean sharing resources equally. Conservatives care about those things, too, but for them fairness means proportionalityóthat people should get what they deserve based on the amount of effort they have put in. Conservatives also emphasize loyalty and authority, values helpful for maintaining a stable society.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...ical-attitudes

Quote:
1. Conservatives tend to focus on the negative.

...

2. Conservatives have a stronger physiological response to threats.

...

3. Conservatives fear new experiences.

...

4. Conservativesí brains are more reactive to fear.
https://www.businessinsider.com/psyc...conservative-1

Quote:
Being scared can make you more conservative.


...

A conservative brain is more active in different areas than a liberal one.

...

On the other hand, feeling safe and endowed with strength might make you lean a little more liberal than you otherwise would.

...

Liberals are less squeamish about looking at yucky stuff like vomit, feces, and blood.

...

Conservatives tend to display more ordered thinking patterns, whereas liberals have more "aha" moments.

...

This didn't mean that the liberals were any smarter than the conservatives. Rather, it showed that their brains had a tendency to reorganize their thoughts in more flexible ways, while the conservatives tended to take a more step-by-step approach. The researchers suggested this finding may indicate that liberals and conservatives prefer solving problems in different ways.

...

Liberals tend to follow the wandering gaze of others more often, while conservative eyes stay more focused on the original subject they're looking at.

...

Holding conservative views seems to make people more resistant to change and help them explain inequality.

...

"People embrace political conservatism (at least in part) because it serves to reduce fear, anxiety, and uncertainty; to avoid change, disruption, and ambiguity; and to explain, order, and justify inequality among groups and individuals," the researchers said.

...

Liberal and conservative tastes in music and art are different, too.

...

The finding fits with other research that indicates conservatives tend to avoid uncertainty and dislike ambiguity more than their liberal counterparts.

...

Liberals are more likely to describe themselves as compassionate and optimistic, while conservatives are more likely to say they're people of honor and religion.

...

Conservatives believe they have more self-control.

...

Liberals and conservatives extend feelings of compassion to different people.
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.
  #92  
Old 04-15-2020, 03:41 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
Would you characterize, say, his Supreme Court picks as Rorschach blobs?
Trump has no internal moral compass or philosophy outside of what furthers his interests and popularity.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #93  
Old 04-15-2020, 04:33 PM
sps49sd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
Maybe I've been living in a "NYC bubble" too long, but I still can't figure out what Middle America sees in Donald Trump. It's been explained to me by conservative and Republican friends, but their explanations don't really lend any insight.

What I mean is this. I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that Trump is the personification of "big business" and overt displays of wealth. But these don't seem to be values that Middle Americans seem to share. I would think they would be turned off by someone like Trump, as they would those "fat cats on Wall Street".

John McCain or any of the George Bushes I understand. But the appeal of Trump to anyone outside of people who follow hedge funds and real estate development still continues to elude me.
No shit, you're living in a bubble.

NYC has significant Trump supporters; it is not the bubble you portray. This "Middle America" of yours, which sure looks like a synonym for "Flyover States", is not as monolithic as most posters in this thread are treating it.

You can try instead asking Trump supporters what they see in him. Most of what I have read in this thread so far reads like projection from those so confident in their correctness that everyone who disagrees is demonized.

Me? I'm a CCSF employee and can see the Bay from my roof. I voted for Obama in 2012 (and would again, happily), but voted for Trump in 2016 and it appears I will vote for him again in 2020. Why? Because the Democratic Party's choices lately are, in my opinion, worse. My choices, as I see them, are Bad and Worse.

"But Trump-"! Yeah, some of it, but there is a lot of overstatement and histrionics. Biden- again, in my opinion- is still worse.
  #94  
Old 04-15-2020, 04:44 PM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 37,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
You can try instead asking Trump supporters what they see in him. Most of what I have read in this thread so far reads like projection from those so confident in their correctness that everyone who disagrees is demonized.

Me? I'm a CCSF employee and can see the Bay from my roof. I voted for Obama in 2012 (and would again, happily), but voted for Trump in 2016 and it appears I will vote for him again in 2020. Why? Because the Democratic Party's choices lately are, in my opinion, worse. My choices, as I see them, are Bad and Worse.

"But Trump-"! Yeah, some of it, but there is a lot of overstatement and histrionics. Biden- again, in my opinion- is still worse.
Yeah, there's no way someone making objective, rational judgements would come to that opinion. You're either not showing your hand, or you won't admit to yourself what it is.

Trump is a fascist and a would-be dictator, he has appointed incompetents and criminals to every office, he has systematically crippled every efficient organization he can get his hands on, he has risked the country's security in every way. He abuses and threatens the press. He lies about everything. He is clearly a self-absorbed moron whose only talent is to rile up an ignorant and bigoted mob, and he makes that crystal clear every single day.

And Biden is worse? No, you're no reliable spokesman for your choices.
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.

Last edited by Acsenray; 04-15-2020 at 04:47 PM.
  #95  
Old 04-15-2020, 05:39 PM
Saintly Loser is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
NYC has significant Trump supporters; it is not the bubble you portray.
Well, sure, if you count Staten Island and some of the Brooklyn Hasidic groups and other ultra-orthodox groups.

But seriously, this city doesn't have a single Republican in its Congressional delegation. There are three (of 51) in the City Council, and two of them are from Staten Island.

I know that "Republican" does not necessarily equal "Trump Supporter," but the near total lack of Republicans in the city's government, and in legislative bodies elected from the city, should tell you that the number of Trump supporters in the city probably isn't all that significant.
  #96  
Old 04-15-2020, 06:55 PM
JRDelirious is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Distanced
Posts: 16,472
Y'know, part if it is that to many in the lower and middle classes of the MAGAverse it IS existential, in this very visceral sense: as a liberal, to that other person I sound like I am saying the only hope for his son's future, is for that son to grow up to think and speak and be like ME, not like him.

I would not be surprised if that man takes offense at that and throws his support behind someone who he believes can shut me up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
Yes, that's what I keep hearing. But I don't see how that translates to Donald Trump. He share's middle class American values of being a billionaire?
No, but he embodies what they think are values of being "tough" and "not taking shit from anyone" (that was Ted Cruz's mistake when he spoke of DT embodying "New York Values" -- he thought he was dogwhistling "cosmopolitanism and sexual decadence". The voters heard "hustling and taking no shit from anyone").

Just as often you have heard that his public image is a poor person's caricature of what being rich must be like, his image is also a disempowered person's caricature of what is being powerful. Which means being intimidating and able to hurt others with impunity. And from some people's POV that is not bullying, it's asserting dominance, and from their life experience the observation is that it works and just is the way the world is.

His constant whingeing as to why he does not get more praise and about how unfairly he gets treated does not affect the following because, at heart, that is also how they feel about themselves: unappreciated and unjustly looked down on.


Quote:
Middle America seems to have a great deal of respect for "following the rules". You follow the rules or you expect to be chewed out - your parents, teachers, coach, boss, the cops, God, whoever.

So I think what Middle America sees in Trump is some guy who is a well known celebrity businessman (therefore successful) telling them that their Middle America way is morally correct. And they appreciate his authoritative "tough talk" because he is chewing out anyone who isn't following "the rules".
Indeed, to them, Trump's personal prickishness was not a disqualifier, but to the contrary, a sign that he would be "putting people in their place" and not giving a damn if others did not like it.
  #97  
Old 04-16-2020, 10:05 AM
sps49sd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintly Loser View Post
Well, sure, if you count Staten Island and some of the Brooklyn Hasidic groups and other ultra-orthodox groups.

But seriously, this city doesn't have a single Republican in its Congressional delegation. There are three (of 51) in the City Council, and two of them are from Staten Island.

I know that "Republican" does not necessarily equal "Trump Supporter," but the near total lack of Republicans in the city's government, and in legislative bodies elected from the city, should tell you that the number of Trump supporters in the city probably isn't all that significant.
I did not say 'in government'. Just because they are a minority does not mean they are not significant and not voting.

I also did not say 'numbers'. But I have the impression Wall Street and a lot of NY money has a worldview closer to DJT than Bernie.
  #98  
Old 04-16-2020, 12:48 PM
leahcim is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
I also did not say 'numbers'. But I have the impression Wall Street and a lot of NY money has a worldview closer to DJT than Bernie.
I can confirm, having worked in a fintech company in NYC at the time of the 2016 elections, that there was strong, outspoken, MAGA-hat wearing Trump support among almost all of the sales guys and senior executives, while most of the software engineers were not (a few libertarian types who vote straight 'R' even though they didn't like the guy at the top, but mostly quiet Obama/Hillary supporters).

Among the traders/bankers it was more, "we want the banking regulations enacted after 2008 lifted, and the Rs are the guys to do it".

But the thread is about "Middle America", not "Trump-supporting coastal elites". The latter category has much more plain motivations (and certainly the mythos of the Trump-o-sphere is that Trump support is 100% the former category).
  #99  
Old 04-16-2020, 01:04 PM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,166
Quote:
Originally Posted by sitchensis View Post
This is my point. Real "city mice" weren't thinking about rural people at all when they donated money to environmental groups that shut down logging operations and killed many small towns. Now the forests are burning up, but the same groups are making it so you can't even salvage dead trees.

Real "city mice" aren't thinking of rural people at all when they push for no coal exports, or no coal on the railways that pass through town.

The Mom and Pop trucking company that can't operate in California because their trucks are a little to old.

The back hoe operator that now needs a million dollar bond to get a contract with the county. He loses out to the big city operator, who can come in take all the profit and leave. The big city guy doesn't do day-to-day small jobs everybody needs but aren't as profitable. The whole community loses with no one to blame.

It's little things but they add up.

I personally know a small automotive salvage yard that had to spend 80k to buy a parking lot cleaner. The State would send in a guy to test the dust in the parking lot and they kept failing for heavy metals. Never mind the public roads next to the parking lot with 10,000 times more traffic.

There is an incredible amount of frustration with bureaucracy and government. They see one side wanting more rules and one side wanting less. They also feel that hard physical work should be rewarded and that is increasingly not the case.
I find the last part hard to believe. If conservatives really believed that hard physical work should be rewarded, then why do they keep voting for those who want to reward the wealthy who rely on the hard physical work of others and do very little to no work (physical or otherwise) themselves? If they believe hard physical work should be rewarded then why do they insist on screwing over the immigrants who pick crops, wash dishes, process meat, etc. while wanting to reward the owners of the mega farms who again personally do little to no work? Why do they complain about athletes making a lot of money but say nothing about the sport team owners?

Itís because saying they care about hard work is just a rationalization they use to avoid admitting to themselves that it itís really about bigotry.
  #100  
Old 04-16-2020, 01:05 PM
drad dog is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 7,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
I did not say 'in government'. Just because they are a minority does not mean they are not significant and not voting.

I also did not say 'numbers'. But I have the impression Wall Street and a lot of NY money has a worldview closer to DJT than Bernie.
Wall St and "NY money" = significant support for dt?

So your talking about $ and not people?

Money is fungible. It can move. In fact it might even not be where it says it is.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017