Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 04-16-2020, 01:47 PM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 37,535
The whole idea that there is a "Middle America" that is the basis for Trump's support is a misnomer. It's White America. White conservatives like to claim descriptors like "real America" or "Middle America" or "Working-Class America," but it's nothing of the kind. The only thing they broadly have in common is that they're white and they resent the threat of loss of white privilege (while denying that there is any white privilege)
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.
  #102  
Old 04-16-2020, 02:55 PM
Nonsuch is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Posts: 5,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
I find the last part hard to believe. If conservatives really believed that hard physical work should be rewarded, then why do they keep voting for those who want to reward the wealthy who rely on the hard physical work of others and do very little to no work (physical or otherwise) themselves?
Because that's part and parcel of being the boss: you pay your dues, and pretty soon it's you making bank off the labor of others. Conservatives fight to preserve this order because many of them see themselves as one day being rewarded by it.
  #103  
Old 04-16-2020, 07:01 PM
msmith537 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
Y'know, part if it is that to many in the lower and middle classes of the MAGAverse it IS existential, in this very visceral sense: as a liberal, to that other person I sound like I am saying the only hope for his son's future, is for that son to grow up to think and speak and be like ME, not like him.

I would not be surprised if that man takes offense at that and throws his support behind someone who he believes can shut me up.


No, but he embodies what they think are values of being "tough" and "not taking shit from anyone" (that was Ted Cruz's mistake when he spoke of DT embodying "New York Values" -- he thought he was dogwhistling "cosmopolitanism and sexual decadence". The voters heard "hustling and taking no shit from anyone").

Just as often you have heard that his public image is a poor person's caricature of what being rich must be like, his image is also a disempowered person's caricature of what is being powerful. Which means being intimidating and able to hurt others with impunity. And from some people's POV that is not bullying, it's asserting dominance, and from their life experience the observation is that it works and just is the way the world is.
I'd say that's fair. To me, Trump comes across like an ill-informed blowhard who is used to running his own family business he inherited. IOW, someone who is used to telling people to do what he wants, when and how he wants or you get fired. Politics doesn't work like that. Heck, most successful companies don't work like that (let's not pretend that The Trump Organization is in the same level as the Johnson & Johnsons and Goldman Sachs of the world). Most of the time it requires a lot of compromise across many stakeholders.

But I can see how if you are a conservative, Trumps uncompromising nature fighting for your particular ideology is appealing. Sort of like a demanding drill sergeant or football coach. You do it the RIGHT way or GET THE FUCK OUT!

And it seems to me that conservatives have an almost pathological aversion to being "told what to do". Also any implication that their success has been achieved through anything but their own efforts (and conversely that anyone less fortunate is deserving of a "helping hand"). Like they loose their fucking minds. I read these posts by people complaining about "martial law" locking us down because of the virus. And I'm like "Your profile says you were in the FUCKING AIR FORCE! You should a) know what martial law is and is not and b) if you are so "anti-government" or whatever, why did you work for them for so many years?"



Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintly Loser
Well, sure, if you count Staten Island and some of the Brooklyn Hasidic groups and other ultra-orthodox groups.

But seriously, this city doesn't have a single Republican in its Congressional delegation. There are three (of 51) in the City Council, and two of them are from Staten Island.

I know that "Republican" does not necessarily equal "Trump Supporter," but the near total lack of Republicans in the city's government, and in legislative bodies elected from the city, should tell you that the number of Trump supporters in the city probably isn't all that significant.
You know New York had two Republican mayors in my lifetime who were relatively popular-ish (Giuliani and Bloomberg)?

Plus there are plenty of Republicans in New York and the surrounding area. My wife never shuts off Fox News. I don't know if they are considered "Middle America" as opposed to "Wall Street elite". Most of them sound like what leahcim described. Libertarian types who don't want regulations or tone-deaf analytical quant types whos analysis leads them to "everyone but me can fuck themselves". Some are actual Wall Street guys bemoaning the fact that they are being treated like the Jamie Dimons and David Solomons of the world while struggling to get by on a couple hundred thousand a year.
  #104  
Old 04-16-2020, 09:57 PM
Settimo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Exactly. Such threads usually last about 10-20 posts on topic before it devolves into arguing as to why someone shouldn't support Trump, rather than the original question (asking why people do support Trump.) The nature of the question completely shifts.


Asking - in a non-heated, objective, rational way - why some people support the KKK, or Nazis, or ISIS, is entirely different than a finger-pointing shouting match over why people shouldn't support those ideologies.
IMHO, threads like this could be separated into two branches. The first branch is to vent the collective spleen, and the other is for more concerted answers to the question. Here's an article on someone who's actually gone around the country interviewing Trump supporters and lived to tell the tale (2017 blog post reprinted in Business Insider, which slants a bit left of center). Some highlights:

Top three things they liked about POTUS:
Quote:
He's not politically correct.
He's anti-abortion.
He will preserve our culture. [may be translated into anti-immigration]
general comments (the interviews include a fair amount of nose-holding / negative views of Trump):
Quote:
He's crazy, but it's a tactic to get other nations not to mess with us.
I hate that he discredits the press all the time. That seems to forebode great evil.
The left is more intolerant than the right.
...the demonization of Trump by calling him and his supporters Nazis, KKK, white supremacists, fascists, etc., works very well in entrenching Trump supporters on his side.
multiple pleas for listening:
Quote:
Stop calling us racists. Stop calling us idiots. We aren't. Listen to us when we try to tell you why we aren't.
You all can defeat Trump next time, but not if you keep mocking us, refusing to listen to us, and cutting us out.
  #105  
Old 04-16-2020, 10:13 PM
msmith537 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,141
[QUOTE=sps49sd;22251534]No shit, you're living in a bubble.
NYC has significant Trump supporters; it is not the bubble you portray. This "Middle America" of yours, which sure looks like a synonym for "Flyover States", is not as monolithic as most posters in this thread are treating it.
[QUOTE=sps49sd;22251534]

I'm actually talking about people I know who live an hour or so from Manhattan. People who live in typical suburban towns in Connecticut, New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. I don't need to travel to Iowa or Kansas to meet Republicans.




Quote:
Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
"But Trump-"! Yeah, some of it, but there is a lot of overstatement and histrionics. Biden- again, in my opinion- is still worse.

"Worse" how? The knee-jerk hatred of Liberals and Democrats by the Right is not self-evident to me. Other than that they make associations with "socialism" or "political correctness", which are apparently so offensive to their sensibilities it drives them out of their minds.
  #106  
Old 04-18-2020, 08:11 AM
running coach's Avatar
running coach is online now
Arms of Steel, Leg of Jello
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Riding my handcycle
Posts: 38,244
Spam reported. (not4eyess)
  #107  
Old 04-18-2020, 09:24 AM
enipla is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 15,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
"But Trump-"! Yeah, some of it, but there is a lot of overstatement and histrionics. Biden- again, in my opinion- is still worse.
I'll try. In what way is Biden worse than Trump?
__________________
I don't live in the middle of nowhere, but I can see it from here.
  #108  
Old 05-09-2020, 11:26 AM
Sdowiat is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 61

Really....?


Right at HALF the people in America voted for him... Including the vast majority who live in "Middle America", and yet you don't understand why they would have done that?

You need to get out of the bubble that you live in and mingle a bit with the backbone of America. There's going to be a LOT MORE than just this that you will become enlightened to. Seriously.
  #109  
Old 05-09-2020, 12:12 PM
HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,350
I have some acquaintances who are poorly informed in general about politics. They don't like to admit this, so they retreat to anodyne observations that neither side is perfect, we ought to be talking to each other, and it's good to give the other side a shot once in a while.

These people are always white, but they don't hate minorities. They are just exercising the white privilege of disengaging from politics knowing they'll probably come out OK either way.
  #110  
Old 05-09-2020, 12:22 PM
pjacks is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
Right at HALF the people in America voted for him... Including the vast majority who live in "Middle America", and yet you don't understand why they would have done that?

You need to get out of the bubble that you live in and mingle a bit with the backbone of America. There's going to be a LOT MORE than just this that you will become enlightened to. Seriously.
27% of voting eligible adults voted for him.
I feel fine dismissing them & their beliefs. What's more concerning is why the Democrats can't cobble together enough votes to beat a quarter of the population who backed an obvious con man. Watch Joe fail to do it again this yet, with help from our brilliant Electoral College.
  #111  
Old 05-09-2020, 12:36 PM
pjacks is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
I have some acquaintances who are poorly informed in general about politics. They don't like to admit this, so they retreat to anodyne observations that neither side is perfect, we ought to be talking to each other, and it's good to give the other side a shot once in a while.

These people are always white, but they don't hate minorities. They are just exercising the white privilege of disengaging from politics knowing they'll probably come out OK either way.
White Americans have higher rates of voting than non-white Americans. They're not the ones disengaging from politics. But keep lecturing white people about their privilege- Trump could use a few more white working class voters switching sides in the Midwest before November.
  #112  
Old 05-09-2020, 01:27 PM
HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,350
I have some acquaintances who are poorly informed in general about politics. They don't like to admit this, so they retreat to anodyne observations that neither side is perfect, we ought to be talking to each other, and it's good to give the other side a shot once in a while.

These people are always white, but they don't hate minorities. They are just exercising the white privilege of disengaging from politics knowing they'll probably come out OK either way.
  #113  
Old 05-09-2020, 01:34 PM
Skywatcher's Avatar
Skywatcher is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Somewhere in the Potomac
Posts: 36,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjacks View Post
White Americans have higher rates of voting than non-white Americans. They're not the ones disengaging from politics. But keep lecturing white people about their privilege- Trump could use a few more white working class voters switching sides in the Midwest before November.
Seems to me HMS is referring to a specific set of acquaintances rather than voters in general.
  #114  
Old 05-09-2020, 01:52 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
Right at HALF the people in America voted for him... Including the vast majority who live in "Middle America", and yet you don't understand why they would have done that?

You need to get out of the bubble that you live in and mingle a bit with the backbone of America. There's going to be a LOT MORE than just this that you will become enlightened to. Seriously.
I've spent a little time in the "backbone" of America. They strike me as pretty dismissive of the "liberal elites". So how about you drop this hard-done-by Middle America bullshit pretense? Seriously.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.

Last edited by QuickSilver; 05-09-2020 at 01:55 PM.
  #115  
Old 05-09-2020, 02:38 PM
HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
Seems to me HMS is referring to a specific set of acquaintances rather than voters in general.
Right, I'm speaking of a pattern I've observed in people I know personally. But I don't think those people are super-rare or unique.

I know Trump has a certain type of base, and a certain type of fringe, and a certain type of nose-holding wedge voter.

The people I'm attempting to describe are white people who deliberately avoid self-labeling, and consume little information about politics and current events at all. They seem to prioritize the idea that everybody has a piece of the truth, nobody is as bad as they seem, and anything's worth trying once. Plus maybe their dad owns a gun or worked in a steel mill or something.

I think that perspective got a lot of people to a neutral or experimentally supportive position on Trump. Then Trump did a bunch of stupid and horrendous shit, which they missed because they aren't actively seeking out that kind of information. The left is very angry, which is impossible to miss. Because this underengaged middle is missing the information explaining why everybody is mad at their guy, they dig even deeper into their worldview. They're not radicalizing, but they're more skeptical than ever of the left.

All of it hinges on being underinformed and being firmly committed to the principle that people are mostly good and partially right.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 05-09-2020 at 02:39 PM.
  #116  
Old 05-09-2020, 08:03 PM
Sdowiat is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 61

This is who voted for him....


Quote:
Originally Posted by pjacks View Post
27% of voting eligible adults voted for him.
I feel fine dismissing them & their beliefs. What's more concerning is why the Democrats can't cobble together enough votes to beat a quarter of the population who backed an obvious con man. Watch Joe fail to do it again this yet, with help from our brilliant Electoral College.
It's fine to dismiss someones beliefs.... Once you know what they are and understand them if you disagree with what you find.... But the area in RED covers the VAST majority of the country. If you can't understand why they would then you are very out of touch with reality and common working class people.



https://brilliantmaps.com/2016-county-election-map/
  #117  
Old 05-09-2020, 08:15 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
It's fine to dismiss someones beliefs.... Once you know what they are and understand them if you disagree with what you find.... But the area in RED covers the VAST majority of the country. If you can't understand why they would then you are very out of touch with reality and common working class people.
What is your understanding of "common working class people"?

ETA: And population density, while we're at it.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.

Last edited by QuickSilver; 05-09-2020 at 08:17 PM.
  #118  
Old 05-09-2020, 09:06 PM
jayjay is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 37,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
It's fine to dismiss someones beliefs.... Once you know what they are and understand them if you disagree with what you find.... But the area in RED covers the VAST majority of the country. If you can't understand why they would then you are very out of touch with reality and common working class people.



https://brilliantmaps.com/2016-county-election-map/
Acreage doesn't vote.
  #119  
Old 05-09-2020, 09:22 PM
Wolf333 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
It's fine to dismiss someones beliefs.... Once you know what they are and understand them if you disagree with what you find.... But the area in RED covers the VAST majority of the country. If you can't understand why they would then you are very out of touch with reality and common working class people.



https://brilliantmaps.com/2016-county-election-map/
The area in BLUE covers the vast majority of actual people.

Last edited by Wolf333; 05-09-2020 at 09:22 PM.
  #120  
Old 05-09-2020, 09:48 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 13,224
Apologies if it's been posted, but Nate Silver covered this back in 2016: educated people drove up support for Clinton and uneducated people drove up support for Trump.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...ote-for-trump/

Last edited by asahi; 05-09-2020 at 09:48 PM.
  #121  
Old 05-09-2020, 10:24 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 8,501
Ok, I'll bite.

I voted from Trump and will so again.

Not because I like him, but because I didnt like Hillary and I dont like Biden.

I wish we had a 3rd choice like a new Ross Perot (Yes, I voted for him).
  #122  
Old 05-10-2020, 01:51 AM
Kimstu is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 23,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I voted from Trump and will so again.

Not because I like him, but because I didnt like Hillary and I dont like Biden.
How is that a reason? Personally, I don't particularly like Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden either. But it's obvious on well-documented empirical grounds that Trump is far more ignorant, mendacious, destructive, irresponsible, malicious, delusional, incompetent and unethical than either of them. So if it's a choice between one of them and Trump, it would obviously be thoroughly stupid and reckless to choose Trump.

I can't fathom the mindset behind the attitude "Because I just don't like these people, I'm going to support a candidate who is a far worse leader and human being than either of them". How can you let your personal feelings of dislike dominate your sense of responsibility as a citizen to that extent?
  #123  
Old 05-10-2020, 02:15 AM
Skywatcher's Avatar
Skywatcher is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Somewhere in the Potomac
Posts: 36,352
Trump violates his own definition of "leadership" every chance he gets. He's no leader and he doesn't give a shit about anyone other than himself. He does give a shit about your vote, though, although you as a citizen are expendable. Which he has clearly demonstrated by his mishandling of this entire virus situation.
  #124  
Old 05-10-2020, 02:33 AM
Skywatcher's Avatar
Skywatcher is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Somewhere in the Potomac
Posts: 36,352
Congrats on helping elect the anti-JFK, I guess.

"Who cares what I can do for the country? What's in it for me?"
  #125  
Old 05-10-2020, 05:44 AM
GoodOmens is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjacks View Post
White Americans have higher rates of voting than non-white Americans. They're not the ones disengaging from politics. But keep lecturing white people about their privilege- Trump could use a few more white working class voters switching sides in the Midwest before November.
Yes, and White Americans are more likely to have access to resources (transportation, time off from work, child care, etc.) which allows us the option to vote. The fact that White Americans vote in larger numbers than other groups doesn't automatically indicate that they are more politically engaged in any meaningful way.
  #126  
Old 05-10-2020, 10:05 AM
msmith537 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by doreen View Post
You have been living in a bubble too long - and it's a bubble even within NYC. Don't feel to bad- most people do. But I'm going to guess you don't spend a lot of time talking to 50-70 year old white guys who didn't go to college. From here on, I'm speaking about the ones I know, who may not be a representative sample. They're Archie Bunker transported to 2020 , although they've learned not to say (or sometimes even think) the most offensive things Archie said. But what "MAGA" means to them is bringing back a world where a loading dock foreman can own a single-family house * and support a wife who doesn't work outside the home and a daughter and later an unemployed son-in-law. They aren't exactly racist - they wouldn't have a problem if a black foreman could do the same but at the same time they aren't exactly not racist because every time a black guy gets the foreman position they will blame it on affirmative action. They feel like Trump is one of them, because for all his money, he still has lower-middle class tastes in a lot of ways. And for some reason that's not clear to me, they seem to think they are going to become very rich one day - I've had a couple go on to me about the "death tax", and when I asked if they expected to leave a multi-million dollar estate, their reply was essentially "It could happen". They're very authoritarian when they agree with the authority but dismiss authorities with whom they disagree . This is how you get people who said " Not my president" about Obama but believe that everyone in the US should respect Trump personally simply because he is the president. I even know a number of allegedly devout Catholics who basically said the Pope needed to stay in his lane when he criticized the wall and had the deer in the headlights look when I asked " Isn't everything in the Pope's lane?".

Yes, I'm familiar with the type. Proud "Backbone of America" types with no education who have rarely been more than 60 miles from where they grew up (unless it was part of military service). They don't know anything but they have strong opinions and resist any change as an "attack on their freedoms".
  #127  
Old 05-10-2020, 10:23 AM
guizot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: An East Hollywood dingbat
Posts: 9,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
How can you let your personal feelings of dislike dominate your sense of responsibility as a citizen to that extent?
A large percentage of the population does this. They do it for the same reason they buy some bullshit piece of crap thing advertised on an infomercial at 2:00 am. For the same reason they think "The Apprentice" is real. For the same reason they believe bullshit posts that the Facebook and YouTube algorithms send to their screens. The have low critical thinking skills and are susceptible to propaganda.

That's the whole basis of Trump's political survival.
  #128  
Old 05-10-2020, 11:23 AM
Wesley Clark's Avatar
Wesley Clark is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 23,841
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOmens View Post
Yes, and White Americans are more likely to have access to resources (transportation, time off from work, child care, etc.) which allows us the option to vote. The fact that White Americans vote in larger numbers than other groups doesn't automatically indicate that they are more politically engaged in any meaningful way.
Black turnout is almost as high as white turnout. Probably because black people realize politics affects them deeply (slavery, Jim crow, police brutality, affordable health care, good jobs etc are very political in nature)

Asian and Latino turnout is low though.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pr...O3NiACoKdUcM_5
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #129  
Old 05-10-2020, 12:05 PM
Skywatcher's Avatar
Skywatcher is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Somewhere in the Potomac
Posts: 36,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
He's no leader and he doesn't give a shit about anyone other than himself. He does give a shit about your vote, though, although you as a citizen are expendable. Which he has clearly demonstrated by his mishandling of this entire virus situation.
As I was saying...
  #130  
Old 05-11-2020, 06:54 AM
Sdowiat is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
I've spent a little time in the "backbone" of America. They strike me as pretty dismissive of the "liberal elites". So how about you drop this hard-done-by Middle America bullshit pretense? Seriously.
The question was "What has Trump done for MIDDLE America. It wasn't about liberal elites.

Those people in red ARE the backbone of America. Most recently, while most people in the blue have been holed up hiding from infection, most of the people in Red have been working. And a LOT of that work has been simply to supply the people in Blue with gasoline, electricity, food and basic supplies so that the necessaries of life can continue instead of the whole system crashing into Anarchy.

Seriously... If you want the votes from the people in Red ( which you obviously need ) a really good first step would be to stop viewing them with such disdain. Would YOU vote for someone who you know views you that way?
  #131  
Old 05-11-2020, 09:14 AM
crowmanyclouds's Avatar
crowmanyclouds is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: ... hiding in my room ...
Posts: 5,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
{...} Those people in red ARE the backbone of America. Most recently, while most people in the blue have been holed up hiding from infection, most of the people in Red have been working. And a LOT of that work has been simply to supply the people in Blue with gasoline, electricity, food and basic supplies so that the necessaries of life can continue instead of the whole system crashing into Anarchy.

Seriously... If you want the votes from the people in Red ( which you obviously need ) a really good first step would be to stop viewing them with such disdain. Would YOU vote for someone who you know views you that way?
A really good first step would be to stop viewing 'them' with such disdain. You first.

CMC fnord!
  #132  
Old 05-11-2020, 09:45 AM
madmonk28 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 13,018
According to 538, Trump’s approval rate is at about 43%, after all of his catastrophic Handling of this crisis and his constantly denying that he said and did things that are well documented, 43% still approve. I think we need to forget about reaching these people, or pretending we don’t understand them. We understand them perfectly well, their motivations are exactly what we were afraid they were.

We need to defeat them, not win them over. Nominating an old white man that talks in old school platitudes helps, maybe we can get some of them to flip, maybe more will stay home if there’s not a person of color to vote against and then when we get control of the government, we need to dismantle the voter suppression mechanisms they established.

Last edited by madmonk28; 05-11-2020 at 09:47 AM.
  #133  
Old 05-11-2020, 10:52 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
The question was "What has Trump done for MIDDLE America. It wasn't about liberal elites.

Those people in red ARE the backbone of America. Most recently, while most people in the blue have been holed up hiding from infection, most of the people in Red have been working. And a LOT of that work has been simply to supply the people in Blue with gasoline, electricity, food and basic supplies so that the necessaries of life can continue instead of the whole system crashing into Anarchy.

Seriously... If you want the votes from the people in Red ( which you obviously need ) a really good first step would be to stop viewing them with such disdain. Would YOU vote for someone who you know views you that way?
I asked you to explain your definition of "common working class people" and what differentiates the working classes in the middle from the working classes on the coasts. I also asked you if you understood that geographical size of an area is not an indication of population size. I guess you don't want to address that.

Okay, maybe you can explain to everyone "what Trump has done for MIDDLE America". Has he created more coal mining jobs? Has he brought back manufacturing? Has he provided healthcare? Higher incomes? Has he done a damn thing for MIDDLE America except to appeal to their sense of insecurity and encouraged their disdain for minorities and liberals? Sure, he threw them a pittance of a tax break. Benefits of which most low income Americans never saw.

Trump has rabble roused the Reds. But in no way has he improved their lives in any meaningful way. He's done the opposite, in fact. He's made them a laughing stock, nationally and internationally.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #134  
Old 05-11-2020, 10:54 AM
bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 19,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonsuch View Post
Because that's part and parcel of being the boss: you pay your dues, and pretty soon it's you making bank off the labor of others. Conservatives fight to preserve this order because many of them see themselves as one day being rewarded by it.
(note- this isn't how I feel, but I do know a lot of conservative types, and have grown up in a conservative area)

I think this is part of it- a lot of conservative types are, or aspire to be small business owners, and maybe if the dice roll well, medium or large business owners. Like maybe starting out as a one-man plumbing business, and ending up with a dozen or more plumbers under you in your company. Or owning some dry cleaning shops, or maybe a general contracting business.

So they tend to view policies that increase taxes, regulation, or other burdens on businesses as a direct threat to their future prosperity- at best, things like increased environmental regulations are viewed as making it a little bit harder to achieve their goals, and at worst, as a direct attack on their livelihoods.

The government is generally viewed as an antagonistic force- one that takes tax money, isn't perceived as providing services/benefits in proportion to that tax money that was taken, and that tends to levy unnecessary or disproportionate regulations on all sorts of stuff that isn't their business (in their perception).

So when they hear about people in the inner city needing MORE welfare, or more social programs, or anything like that, they severely bridle at it. They feel like they're already paying a lot in taxes and getting little in return, while the inner city crowd (who also happens to have a different skin color) sucks up the difference, wants more, and cries about their treatment.

Now it's all a matter of perspective- we know that the last paragraph isn't true, or isn't true in the way that the conservatives are perceiving it. But they don't necessarily have any way of knowing- from their perspective, they (conservatives in the suburbs or rural areas) are working hard, trying to provide for their families, and become prosperous, all while the government keeps siphoning off a large proportion of their income as tax, and outside of police, fire and essential services, doesn't really do much in return. They don't get WIC, they don't get Medicaid, they don't get food stamps, they don't get electricity or water assistance either. Their children aren't getting free lunches at school or free school supplies either.

All they see themselves getting is the essential shared services that everyone gets, and feeling like they're getting a raw deal on that, because there's a large chunk of people who use that and don't pay taxes, and suck up resources for other stuff like medicaid, free lunches, etc... And on top of it, they have higher crime rates, higher teen pregnancies, etc... all of which is viewed as both symptoms and causes of the problem.

It's not so much a lack of compassion, as it's a feeling of unfairness that then mutates into hostility and disdain/condescension. It's almost always as a group conception- not individual racism in most cases.

So when Trump shows up and basically says "Fuck those people" in so many ways, they're all on board- he's basically saying he agrees with them, and is doing things to remedy this.

The reason they're so hostile toward (white middle class) liberals, is because they view liberals as enabling this behavior and actively working against their prosperity in favor of this other crowd (blacks, mexicans, white trash) who don't act like they should. There does seem to be an element of racism here- I definitely perceive a bit of a betrayal feeling, like white liberals are not sticking up for their own somehow.
  #135  
Old 05-11-2020, 11:03 AM
tim314 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Ok, I'll bite.

I voted from Trump and will so again.

Not because I like him, but because I didnt like Hillary and I dont like Biden.

I wish we had a 3rd choice like a new Ross Perot (Yes, I voted for him).
I can understand that sometimes an election is about who you dislike the least, not who you like the most.

But in terms of what you find less bad about Trump -- are you talking (primarily) about policies? Personality / temperament? Party identity? Cultural identity? Something else?
  #136  
Old 05-11-2020, 11:39 AM
Wesley Clark's Avatar
Wesley Clark is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 23,841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
The question was "What has Trump done for MIDDLE America. It wasn't about liberal elites.

Those people in red ARE the backbone of America. Most recently, while most people in the blue have been holed up hiding from infection, most of the people in Red have been working. And a LOT of that work has been simply to supply the people in Blue with gasoline, electricity, food and basic supplies so that the necessaries of life can continue instead of the whole system crashing into Anarchy.

Seriously... If you want the votes from the people in Red ( which you obviously need ) a really good first step would be to stop viewing them with such disdain. Would YOU vote for someone who you know views you that way?
The issue is that it is fundamentally about race.

There are minority-majority rural counties. They aren't everwhere but there are counties that are very rural where the majority of citizens are black, latino, asian, indian, etc. Those counties all lean blue.

Its not just rural counties, its particularly white rural counties.

We're engaging in all these mental gymnastics to avoid occams razor.

Lots of white christians feel America is 'theirs' and they don't like the fact that America is rapidly become more multicultural, multiracial, egalitarian and diverse.

Even the issue of immigration is probably to a large degree about race. Like when Trump said he wanted immigrants from Sweden. He seemed more comfortable with white immigrants with European backgrounds rather than brown skinned ones from latin America.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 05-11-2020 at 11:44 AM.
  #137  
Old 05-11-2020, 12:54 PM
madmonk28 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 13,018
Nitpick: it was Norway that he wanted people from.

It's all about race, what his supporters get from Trump is permission to be overtly racist without having to feel bad about it.
  #138  
Old 05-11-2020, 02:12 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
Nitpick: it was Norway that he wanted people from.

It's all about race, what his supporters get from Trump is permission to be overtly racist without having to feel bad about it.
Sweden, Norway... they all look the same to them.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #139  
Old 05-11-2020, 02:23 PM
Wesley Clark's Avatar
Wesley Clark is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 23,841
I have friends from Norway so I can't be nativist.

They even let me call them Fjellabes. They said I'm allowed to use that word because I'm one of the good ones.

Yes, I don't agree with their culture and I think a lot of their problems are self imposed by their own value system.If they focused more on hard work and less on their music I think it could be a beautiful culture. But its not for me to judge.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #140  
Old 05-11-2020, 02:29 PM
madmonk28 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 13,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
Sweden, Norway... they all look the same to them.
It's relevant because Trump had just met with the prime minister of Norway shortly before he made the comment, that's how his brain works, it fixates on the last thing he saw. The Norway immigrants comment was part of his "shithole countries" rant and it's all you need to know about Trump or his supporters.
  #141  
Old 05-12-2020, 02:55 AM
msmith537 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
The question was "What has Trump done for MIDDLE America. It wasn't about liberal elites.

Those people in red ARE the backbone of America. Most recently, while most people in the blue have been holed up hiding from infection, most of the people in Red have been working. And a LOT of that work has been simply to supply the people in Blue with gasoline, electricity, food and basic supplies so that the necessaries of life can continue instead of the whole system crashing into Anarchy.

Seriously... If you want the votes from the people in Red ( which you obviously need ) a really good first step would be to stop viewing them with such disdain. Would YOU vote for someone who you know views you that way?

But again, that still doesn't explain how those Backbone of America people identify with Donald Trump, a trust fund billionaire from New York City.

It's like there is this tautology in conservative's minds - That Liberals and Democrats are everything that is "wrong" with America. Regardless of what they do or say or what data shows or how their policies align with regular people. Therefore, conservatives will vote for whoever is the most "anti-Democrats". And no one is more hated by Democrats than Donald Trump.

I mean even your statement is completely absurd. That there is some hard "red/blue" line between who is working "essential jobs" vs who is holed up in their suburban homes? Ridiculous.
  #142  
Old 05-12-2020, 03:54 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 8,501
See the libs always want to label everyone who opposes immigration from the 3rd world as "racist".

Look, many poor countries like Haiti need our help but we cant just open up our doors and let them all move here. We have problems of our own and we already take in millions of immigrants each year. We are full.

Look, I know there are stories like how if there is no more room at the table one should build a bigger table to accommodate the poor and hungry but sometimes there is no more room left to build a table.

Obama did try and limit immigration but his party demanded open borders. If we elect Biden he will tear down what little border protections there are and just allow everyone in.

It is democrats who push for sanctuary cities and open borders and support giving benefits to illegals no matter what.
  #143  
Old 05-12-2020, 04:06 AM
galen ubal is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Central VIC Australia
Posts: 2,993
You are giving a wonderful example of the "fallacy of the excluded middle", Urbanredneck. I'd explain further, but I've found that explaining things to the conservative elements gets one labelled as an elitist, and one who looks down on others, rather than one who is honestly trying to explain our point of view.
Anyway.
Please point out which Democratic politicians are advocating completely open borders.
  #144  
Old 05-12-2020, 06:01 AM
The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by galen ubal View Post
You are giving a wonderful example of the "fallacy of the excluded middle", Urbanredneck. I'd explain further, but I've found that explaining things to the conservative elements gets one labelled as an elitist, and one who looks down on others, rather than one who is honestly trying to explain our point of view.
Anyway.
Please point out which Democratic politicians are advocating completely open borders.
Some politicians lie.

Put it this way. Let’s say that some folks do advocate for what you’re talking about; we’ll call them “Type 1” enthusiasts. And let’s say that some enthusiasts — we’ll call them “Type 2” — have that same open-borders goal but keep from saying so, instead talking up nuance and complexity while advocating for mere decriminalization and a path to citizenship, but all while pretty much thinking like “Type 1” folks.

And let’s briefly skip the “Type 3” and “Type 4” to note that some folks — “Type 5”, as it were — in fact mean what they say about nuance and complexity and so on, and aren’t out for open borders or something trivially different from open borders; might they vote for a “Type 2” politician, a guy who pretty much just has “Type 1” goals but who pretty much just talks like a “Type 5” voter?
  #145  
Old 05-12-2020, 06:10 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 37,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
See the libs always want to label everyone who opposes immigration from the 3rd world as "racist".
No, just the ones who say racist things -- like Trump, Bannon, etc.

Quote:
Look, many poor countries like Haiti need our help but we cant just open up our doors and let them all move here. We have problems of our own and we already take in millions of immigrants each year. We are full.

Look, I know there are stories like how if there is no more room at the table one should build a bigger table to accommodate the poor and hungry but sometimes there is no more room left to build a table.
We're not even close to full, but no prominent Democrat is advocating to literally "open up our doors".

There's an enormous amount of room in the country -- "we are full" is the bullshit and laughably counterfactual justification used by Hitler and many more for monstrous policies.

Quote:
It is democrats who push for sanctuary cities and open borders and support giving benefits to illegals no matter what.
Sanctuary cities are good policy for law enforcement because it's important that all residents, even undocumented ones, see police as allies when they are in trouble rather than enemies to be feared. If undocumented immigrants are unwilling to cooperate with police when investigating rapes, murders, etc., then our cities will become less safe because the police will have much more difficulty solving crimes. Since the vast majority of undocumented immigrants are peaceful and hard-working residents, this makes logical sense and opposition to these policies is based on misunderstanding and ignorance. As to "benefits to illegals", that's mostly nonsense, as undocumented immigrants generally contribute significantly more money to the economy than they take from taxpayers, since they have to pay many taxes but take very few benefits.

Wherever you're getting your information on this issue is failing you. Blaming immigrants is a tried and true rhetorical practice in history for justifying bad behavior and shifting blame from the powerful to the powerless. Hundreds of millions have fallen for this bullshit through history over hundreds of years, but it's still bullshit propaganda. The powerless are not your enemy. The powerless are not to be feared. And they're not harming our society by any means. By the numbers, they're helping, and most of these folks would make wonderful American citizens -- hard working, decent, honest, etc., and we should welcome the vast majority.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-12-2020 at 06:13 AM.
  #146  
Old 05-12-2020, 06:22 AM
Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 24,598
I saw a right-wing Facebook meme recently that boiled down to:

1) Democrats want open borders.
2) Here is a video of Joe Biden calling for greater border controls.
3) This proves that Democrats are hypocrites.

Whereas the reality was:

1) Right-wingers make up the false narrative that Democrats want open borders.
2) Right-wingers find evidence that Democrats don't want open borders.
3) Right-wingers irrationally blame Democrats for the inconsistency.
  #147  
Old 05-12-2020, 08:02 AM
manson1972's Avatar
manson1972 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Sanctuary cities are good policy for law enforcement because it's important that all residents, even undocumented ones, see police as allies when they are in trouble rather than enemies to be feared. If undocumented immigrants are unwilling to cooperate with police when investigating rapes, murders, etc., then our cities will become less safe because the police will have much more difficulty solving crimes.
You are looking at this from a stance of "compassion for human beings regardless of what country they were born in"

The Anti-"Sanctuary City" crowd answers like this: The cities become less safe for illegal immigrants. Maybe they should go back to their own country then.

Similar to "we shouldn't lock people up in cages" - ASC crowd: "Then don't come here if they don't like it"

Almost any question you have about why people do something is "They don't care about the people who this negatively affects"

Also, I'm personally baffled by someone who would vote/not vote for someone simply based on "liking" or "not liking" them. Ridiculous.
  #148  
Old 05-12-2020, 08:08 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
You are looking at this from a stance of "compassion for human beings regardless of what country they were born in"

The Anti-"Sanctuary City" crowd answers like this: The cities become less safe for illegal immigrants. Maybe they should go back to their own country then.

Similar to "we shouldn't lock people up in cages" - ASC crowd: "Then don't come here if they don't like it"

Almost any question you have about why people do something is "They don't care about the people who this negatively affects"
But don't call them racists!

QED:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck
See the libs always want to label everyone who opposes immigration from the 3rd world as "racist".

Look, many poor countries like Haiti need our help but we cant just open up our doors and let them all move here. We have problems of our own and we already take in millions of immigrants each year. We are full.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #149  
Old 05-12-2020, 08:16 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 37,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
The Anti-"Sanctuary City" crowd answers like this: The cities become less safe for illegal immigrants. Maybe they should go back to their own country then.
But that's false -- if rapists and murderers go free because police can't solve the crimes, then everyone is in more danger. Sanctuary cities = safer cities for everyone.
  #150  
Old 05-12-2020, 08:19 AM
manson1972's Avatar
manson1972 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
But that's false -- if rapists and murderers go free because police can't solve the crimes, then everyone is in more danger. Sanctuary cities = safer cities for everyone.
But if they are only raping and murdering illegal immigrants, then I don't care. If they don't want to be raped and murdered, then they should go back to their own country. We shouldn't even be wasting resources investigating crimes against illegal immigrants, we should just be deporting them.

And if the rapist and/or murderer IS an illegal immigrant, then that just proves my point.

(obviously not MY personal opinion)
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:23 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017