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  #151  
Old 05-12-2020, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by sitchensis View Post
A lot of rural people fed up with being told how to do things by people who don't understand them. People who don't believe in them or what they do has any value. People that like to make rules that barely impact their lives but significantly impact the live of the rural people.
Well, if the power structure that runs the Republican Right truly understands them better, then they must simply not give a damn about them. Possibly the biggest mass con job in human history is the Right convincing the rank and file that they are "one of them" while ceaselessly trying to cut medicare and social security while, at the same time, giving trillions of dollars to the rich and privileged.

It is the democrats who ceaselessly work to increase social programs and the betterment of the common American, certainly not the Republicans. Trump is the poster boy for the rich, corporate fueled Plutocracy that actually runs this country, not the champion of the common American.
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  #152  
Old 05-12-2020, 08:38 AM
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Well, if the power structure that runs the Republican Right truly understands them better, then they must simply not give a damn about them. Possibly the biggest mass con job in human history is the Right convincing the rank and file that they are "one of them" while ceaselessly trying to cut medicare and social security while, at the same time, giving trillions of dollars to the rich and privileged.

It is the democrats who ceaselessly work to increase social programs and the betterment of the common American, certainly not the Republicans. Trump is the poster boy for the rich, corporate fueled Plutocracy that actually runs this country, not the champion of the common American.
None of this matters as long as they can agree on who to blame and hate for the various negative outcomes and situations they find themselves in. Cue: immigrants, liberals, uppity women and minorities.
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  #153  
Old 05-12-2020, 08:44 AM
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None of this matters as long as they can agree on who to blame and hate for the various negative outcomes and situations they find themselves in. Cue: immigrants, liberals, uppity women and minorities.
This. Blaming a class or classes of people for your own misfortune isn't anything new.

For instance, ask the person who thinks our country is full WHY he thinks our country is full.
  #154  
Old 05-12-2020, 08:55 AM
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This. Blaming a class or classes of people for your own misfortune isn't anything new.

For instance, ask the person who thinks our country is full WHY he thinks our country is full.
Have you seen the traffic? D'uh!
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  #155  
Old 05-12-2020, 09:12 AM
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For instance, ask the person who thinks our country is full WHY he thinks our country is full.
Have you seen how much our country eats? I'm not surprised it's full.
  #156  
Old 05-12-2020, 09:13 AM
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Here's something Middle America should see in Donald Trump. Or maybe they don't ó this old video has only 99,000 views.
They should watch this old video too (Megan Kelly's in it). But again, only 90,000 views.

Spread these via Facebook etc. I'll check back in a week; if each doesn't have at least 5000 more views I'll be disappointed in Dopers.
  #157  
Old 05-12-2020, 09:14 AM
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We could easily handle -- and be improved by -- about a million immigrants a year, less than .3% of the nation's population. And if middle America doesn't like the country's continuing diversification, well then, fuck middle America.
  #158  
Old 05-12-2020, 09:22 AM
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Here's something Middle America should see in Donald Trump. Or maybe they don't ó this old video has only 99,000 views
Just a joke. This country is too PC nowadays, can't even make an innocent joke.

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They should watch this old video too (Megan Kelly's in it). But again, only 90,000 views
Fake news. And even if it wasn't, where is all the outcry about Biden? And what about Bill Clinton? Bunch of liberal hypocrites.

ANYTHING can be explained away by Fake News, hypocrisy, or "those" people.

Over three years into this Administration and people still ask "Why support Trump?"
  #159  
Old 05-12-2020, 10:33 AM
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But that's false -- if rapists and murderers go free because police can't solve the crimes, then everyone is in more danger. Sanctuary cities = safer cities for everyone.
Your calling Chicago and Detroit and Los Angeles, all sanctuary cities and all run by democrats - SAFE?

On immigration - I wish at least one of the parties would target the owners of the businesses like the meatpacking plants, which willingly hire illegals at lower wages than Americans. A friends Dad worked for years at a KC meatpacking plant until the company was bought out and they rehired all the old employees but only at half their old wages. When they didnt want to come back for so little pay they just brought in illegals.

Will Biden target the people putting Americans out of work and bringing in illegals? Times before I used to support democrats when I they used to support unions and American workers against wealthy business owners but they switched sides and could care less about workers now.

Oh, and its not just the illegals. Many software and tech companies bring in legal workers from places like India who work for less than Americans. Does Biden say anything about that?
  #160  
Old 05-12-2020, 10:37 AM
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This. Blaming a class or classes of people for your own misfortune isn't anything new.

For instance, ask the person who thinks our country is full WHY he thinks our country is full.
Well lets see... over crowded schools. Over crowded highways. Lack of affordable housing. Massive homeless problems. Rural and wilderness areas being overrun. I'm surprised our electrical, water, and sanitation systems can keep up.

But democrats will not be happy until we are as crowded as Japan.
  #161  
Old 05-12-2020, 10:49 AM
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Well lets see... over crowded schools. Over crowded highways. Lack of affordable housing. Massive homeless problems. Rural and wilderness areas being overrun. I'm surprised our electrical, water, and sanitation systems can keep up.

But democrats will not be happy until we are as crowded as Japan.
Well, those are symptoms of the "overcrowding" you claim. It doesn't answer WHY you think there is overcrowding.
  #162  
Old 05-12-2020, 10:58 AM
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Well lets see... over crowded schools. Over crowded highways. Lack of affordable housing. Massive homeless problems. Rural and wilderness areas being overrun. I'm surprised our electrical, water, and sanitation systems can keep up.

But democrats will not be happy until we are as crowded as Japan.
Has it occurred to you that what you're talking about is an infrastructure and social welfare problem, not a population problem?

Also, Japan has negative population growth with a disproportionately large aging population. Which is a problem for Japan on many levels, but not with respect to immigration levels.

Perhaps you had some other Asian country in mind as a better example of oppressive poverty, crumbling infrastructure and over population?
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  #163  
Old 05-12-2020, 11:17 AM
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On immigration - I wish at least one of the parties would target the owners of the businesses like the meatpacking plants, which willingly hire illegals at lower wages than Americans.
Or golf courses.
  #164  
Old 05-12-2020, 11:19 AM
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Your calling Chicago and Detroit and Los Angeles, all sanctuary cities and all run by democrats - SAFE?
Far safer than they used to be, and far safer than they would be without sanctuary policies.

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Will Biden target the people putting Americans out of work and bringing in illegals? Times before I used to support democrats when I they used to support unions and American workers against wealthy business owners but they switched sides and could care less about workers now.
They're certainly friendlier to unions, and offer much more to workers, than the Republicans. Higher minimum wage, better health care, more worker protections, etc. The Republicans are just as awful for workers as they have been for decades, if not worse -- they're trying to take away workers' healthcare!

Once again, you're allowing yourself to be manipulated. Immigrants aren't hurting you, any more than the Jews were hurting Germany in the 30s. This is what the rich and powerful want you to believe so that you blame immigrants instead of the rich and powerful. It's never immigrants who are the problem -- it's always the wealthy interests who try to manipulate us.
  #165  
Old 05-12-2020, 11:31 AM
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Well lets see... over crowded schools. Over crowded highways. Lack of affordable housing. Massive homeless problems. Rural and wilderness areas being overrun. I'm surprised our electrical, water, and sanitation systems can keep up.
The first four on your list are because we have not invested in our infrastructure. Our infrastructure will be overloaded with or without immigration if we don't pay for it. I live in "trumplandia", I went to one of the least diverse high schools in my state, and the population demographics around me is 80+% white, with recent immigrants making up only a couple percent at most.

Our schools are overcrowded, our highways are nearly impassible for about 6 hours a day (This covid thing has actually been great for traffic). Lack of affordable housing and homelessness are very related, and they are not due to a lack of space to put houses, but due to artificial scarcity created mostly by wealthy land owners.

Our water, electrical and sewer are also infrastructure that is being neglected, and it is not being neglected due to immigration, it is being neglected due to the "starve the beast" mentality that the same people who are against immigration also generally promote.
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But democrats will not be happy until we are as crowded as Japan.
So, you think that we should follow Japan's model, where they have virtually no immigration, negative population growth, and a crashing economy due to that?

I suppose that republicans will not be happy until we are as white as Norway.

ETA: kinda ninja'd by QuickSilver

Last edited by k9bfriender; 05-12-2020 at 11:32 AM.
  #166  
Old 05-12-2020, 11:41 AM
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See the libs always want to label everyone who opposes immigration from the 3rd world as "racist".

Look, many poor countries like Haiti need our help but we cant just open up our doors and let them all move here. We have problems of our own and we already take in millions of immigrants each year. We are full.

Look, I know there are stories like how if there is no more room at the table one should build a bigger table to accommodate the poor and hungry but sometimes there is no more room left to build a table.
Not me! But I would like to know how you're going to deal with a full country. Are you going to make abortion mandatory or just execute someone at random for every live birth?


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Obama did try and limit immigration but his party demanded open borders.
No it didn't. Open borders is not part of the Democratic Party platform.

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If we elect Biden he will tear down what little border protections there are and just allow everyone in.
I have my doubts about that.

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It is democrats who push for sanctuary cities and open borders and support giving benefits to illegals no matter what.
Sanctuary cities aren't something to be pushed for. Municipal governments aren't responsible for enforcing federal laws; is this not so?
  #167  
Old 05-12-2020, 12:38 PM
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The first four on your list are because we have not invested in our infrastructure. Our infrastructure will be overloaded with or without immigration if we don't pay for it. I live in "trumplandia", I went to one of the least diverse high schools in my state, and the population demographics around me is 80+% white, with recent immigrants making up only a couple percent at most.

Our schools are overcrowded, our highways are nearly impassible for about 6 hours a day (This covid thing has actually been great for traffic). Lack of affordable housing and homelessness are very related, and they are not due to a lack of space to put houses, but due to artificial scarcity created mostly by wealthy land owners.

Our water, electrical and sewer are also infrastructure that is being neglected, and it is not being neglected due to immigration, it is being neglected due to the "starve the beast" mentality that the same people who are against immigration also generally promote.
This seems like a complicated issue, one that requires education and critical analysis to derive a solution that may only solve 50 - 90 percent of the problem. That seems hard. Can I just blame poor brown people instead? That's easier.
  #168  
Old 05-12-2020, 12:51 PM
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@Urbanredneck:

We keep having this exact same conversation with you over and over in these discussions. You make the same unsupported claims, we respond with the same reasoned arguments, you rarely offer the courtesy of a response except to post another wildly unsupported claim. Rinse and repeat in the next thread. It gets us nowhere.

Is it that you're absolutely closed to taking in any new information that contradicts your existing world view? Do you think we're lying to you? Help me understand this unbending refusal to consider new information. If you could help us understand you, perhaps we'll all be a step closer to understanding, What Middle America sees in Donald Trump.
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  #169  
Old 05-12-2020, 12:52 PM
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They're certainly friendlier to unions, and offer much more to workers, than the Republicans. Higher minimum wage, better health care, more worker protections, etc. The Republicans are just as awful for workers as they have been for decades, if not worse -- they're trying to take away workers' healthcare!
.
I agree they are to public unions (Ex. NEA) but not private sector. I dont see democrats supporting unions at WalMart and Amazon.

Where were democrats when the meatpacking plants tossed out their American workers and replaced them with illegals who work for half the money?
  #170  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:02 PM
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I agree they are to public unions (Ex. NEA) but not private sector. I dont see democrats supporting unions at WalMart and Amazon.

Where were democrats when the meatpacking plants tossed out their American workers and replaced them with illegals who work for half the money?
So as a conservative/republican, you would like more big government intrusion into businesses? Is that a correct understanding?

On a less flippant note: Do you understand how the American economy is inexorably dependent on cheap goods and seasonal labor? I would love to see meat plant workers making a living wage. But the cost of the meat they produce will go up significantly. Are you and the American consumer prepared to pay 50% to 100% more for that ground beef?

Meatpacker wages by US Labor Stats Bureau
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 05-12-2020 at 01:06 PM.
  #171  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:13 PM
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So what will Biden do to stop the massive inrush at our southern borders? What will he do to deal with our messed up asylum laws like the 1997 Flores law which allow anyone to stay as long as they say they ask for asylum or they have a kid with them whether its theirs or not.

Look we had probably 1,000,000 show up at our southern border last year (they apprehended only 400,000). You can be the most lib, open minded person out there but even those have to say "enough is enough". Our sanctuary and asylum laws encourage people to come here. Will Biden fix that? Nope. Biden is for decriminalizing illegal border crossings, abolishing ICE, eliminating border fences, and will stop deportations. LINK

Democrats allow illegals to vote in local elections.

You say we are NOT crowded? Where will those million illegals go to live? Most likely in border states like California. How many homeless does LA already have? How many people already on welfare?
  #172  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:17 PM
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So as a conservative/republican, you would like more big government intrusion into businesses? Is that a correct understanding?

On a less flippant note: Do you understand how the American economy is inexorably dependent on cheap goods and seasonal labor? I would love to see meat plant workers making a living wage. But the cost of the meat they produce will go up significantly. Are you and the American consumer prepared to pay 50% to 100% more for that ground beef?

Meatpacker wages by US Labor Stats Bureau
Hell yes I want the government to step in and stop wealthy meatpacking plant owners from deliberately hiring illegals. Some of those places are owned by large multinational corporations. Dont you?

I dont think the cost of meat will rise too much because any costs saving from using half price illegals goes into the pockets of the owners, not passed on to consumers.
  #173  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:24 PM
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So what will Biden do to stop the massive inrush at our southern borders?
What could possibly be done? Mexico and Central America are largely non-functional, with little chance of a decent life for millions. So of course many of those folks are going to try and have a decent life, which may mean their only chance is to come here. The only way to fix this is to fix those countries. We could have something to do with that (by punishing those countries Trump is actually making this much, much worse, and thus increasing demand to cross the border), but as a general rule, we can't fix other countries.

But this isn't a cause for fear. These people aren't going to hurt you, by and large. The vast majority would make great Americans, and will do great work in a lot of difficult jobs that need to be done.

These powerless brown people are not the problem with America. The problem is wealthy and powerful interests trying to manipulate us to be afraid of each other, and afraid of brown people, rather than rightfully focusing our ire on them.

Right now you're fulfilling their plan -- you're more scared of brown foreigners than rich and powerful Americans who are making life far worse for working Americans than a hundred million immigrants ever could.
  #174  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:26 PM
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Hell yes I want the government to step in and stop wealthy meatpacking plant owners from deliberately hiring illegals. Some of those places are owned by large multinational corporations. Dont you?
Great I agree. I bet we can even find some common ground on HB1 visas. But that's a longer, much more complicated subject and I'm not even sure I am on the right side of it myself, for selfish reasons.

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I dont think the cost of meat will rise too much because any costs saving from using half price illegals goes into the pockets of the owners, not passed on to consumers.
I really don't think you understand economics or capitalism. That's not how any of it works.

Tysons Foods is not going to eat the costs of rising wages. They have investors and shareholders to whom they will need to answer for the a sudden loss of profitability due to a huge increase in expenses. They will pass on the cost to the consumer because the consumer is not going to stop eating meat. There may be some re-balancing of cost of meat vs sales of meat, but it sure as hell won't be covered by the corporations and shareholders.
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  #175  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:42 PM
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This is what I mean about you saying unsupported things and refusing to go beyond your current understanding of the world.

Nothing in that article says a goddamn thing about Democrats. It's a story about municipal officials talking about allowing non-citizens (1/3 of San Francisco is ethnically Asians) to vote for school board members.

Can you tell me why you chose to misrepresent the article that you linked to? Or did you simply not understand what you read and assumed it was those evil democrats at it again?
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  #176  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:45 PM
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So what will Biden do to stop the massive inrush at our southern borders? What will he do to deal with our messed up asylum laws like the 1997 Flores law which allow anyone to stay as long as they say they ask for asylum or they have a kid with them whether its theirs or not.
A good way to stop the massive inrush would be to improve the conditions of the countries from which they come. It's not as though we do not bear any responsibility for the state that they are in.

If people are looking for asylum, it is because they are coming from a bad situation, one that they have worked very hard to escape.

I actually find it rather sickening that there are those who go out of their way to make sure that someone who comes form such an environment is not allowed to try to find safety or security for themselves and their family.
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Look we had probably 1,000,000 show up at our southern border last year (they apprehended only 400,000). You can be the most lib, open minded person out there but even those have to say "enough is enough". Our sanctuary and asylum laws encourage people to come here. Will Biden fix that? Nope. Biden is for decriminalizing illegal border crossings, abolishing ICE, eliminating border fences, and will stop deportations. LINK
Yeah, there is a point where enough is enough. For you, that is any number greater than 0. For us "libs", that number is a bit higher. What that number is is an open question that I don't know that any two democrats would agree on, but lets just say that we are no where near our "limit".
In school board elections, to which their property taxes pay and their children attend. I take it that you are fine with taxation without representation?
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You say we are NOT crowded? Where will those million illegals go to live? Most likely in border states like California. How many homeless does LA already have? How many people already on welfare?
Well, they would not be "illegals" if we "get our way" and they are let in legally, but I'm sure you would still call them that.

Immigrants have a lower homelessness rate, as well as poverty and crime, than native born citizens. If you are concerned about LA having homeless, then you should be banning people from Mississippi from entering any more prosperous state.

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Hell yes I want the government to step in and stop wealthy meatpacking plant owners from deliberately hiring illegals. Some of those places are owned by large multinational corporations. Dont you?
Sure, if employers are breaking the law, then they should be penalized. However, it is not the fact that they are hiring non-citizens that protects them, it is their wealth. And wealthy people get away with quite a few things that they shouldn't. If you spent half the effort and time that you do on criticizing poor people fleeing violence and poverty on clamoring for the wealthy to play by the same rules as the rest, then your points could be taken seriously.

What penalty do you think should be leveled at the wealthy plant owners who break labor law? Fines, prison, death penalty? These are the consequences that you happily would put upon their workers.
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I dont think the cost of meat will rise too much because any costs saving from using half price illegals goes into the pockets of the owners, not passed on to consumers.
That's not actually how it works, not at all. But lets say that it does, for the sake of argument. Are you saying that these greedy wealthy owners who are willing to break the law in employing ineligible workers will eat the costs associated with taking on "full price legals"? And, are you actually under some sort of belief that, that if there were no immigrants, the same number of employees would be paid twice what the ineligible workers make now?
  #177  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:55 PM
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Can you tell me why you chose to misrepresent the article that you linked to? Or did you simply not understand what you read and assumed it was those evil democrats at it again?
That'll earn you a warning, QS. Do not accuse others of lying, even sort of.

Please don't do so again.
  #178  
Old 05-12-2020, 03:12 PM
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Right now you're fulfilling their plan -- you're more scared of brown foreigners than rich and powerful Americans who are making life far worse for working Americans than a hundred million immigrants ever could.
I find this to be extremely rude and not any bit of "discussion".

Maybe come up with a better argument than "oh, your just racist".

Look, every country in the world has immigration laws and has restrictions on who they let in. Why cant we do the same?
  #179  
Old 05-12-2020, 03:19 PM
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I find this to be extremely rude and not any bit of "discussion".

Maybe come up with a better argument than "oh, your just racist".
I haven't seen you post anything racist here. I've seen you post incorrect things, but I haven't seen any racist posts -- are you saying you are racist? If not, what are you objecting to?

You're accepting the manipulative propaganda of the wealthy and powerful, who want you to direct your ire at the powerless instead of the powerful. But it's the powerful and wealthy interests who are to blame, not the powerless. Immigrants are not a threat to Americans -- quite the opposite. Billionaires who want you to ignore their misbehavior are a threat, and they'll use anything they can to get you to focus on something else.

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Look, every country in the world has immigration laws and has restrictions on who they let in. Why cant we do the same?
We should and we do. The disagreement is about the specifics.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-12-2020 at 03:20 PM.
  #180  
Old 05-12-2020, 03:20 PM
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Look, every country in the world has immigration laws and has restrictions on who they let in. Why cant we do the same?
We absolutely can, do and will.

The discussion is not whether or not there will be restrictions, but on what they are. You seem to want to have 100% restrictions, not born here, not welcome here. Democrats have looser restrictions. Some on the far left even have restrictions loose enough that you could call them "open borders." I disagree with going that far in that direction either.

Personally, I do not see that our population is growing fast enough to maintain our way of life, and would like to see immigration greatly increased. It is not only a benefit to the immigrants who get to come here and live a better life, it is a benefit to the communities they live in as well.
  #181  
Old 05-12-2020, 03:41 PM
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Look we had probably 1,000,000 show up at our southern border last year (they apprehended only 400,000). You can be the most lib, open minded person out there but even those have to say "enough is enough". Our sanctuary and asylum laws encourage people to come here. Will Biden fix that? Nope. Biden is for decriminalizing illegal border crossings, abolishing ICE, eliminating border fences, and will stop deportations. LINK
At the link you provided, Bidens positions are contrary to your claims:

- Biden is opposed to eliminating criminal penalties for illegal border crossing.
- Biden is not on record for abolishing ICE
- Biden is not on record for eliminating border fencing
- Biden is for a temporary freeze on deportations, but not on eliminating all deportations.

Your own cites provides the answers to your concerns, however, your stated conclusions are in direct contrast to the very cite you provide.
Is it possible that your understanding of Biden's positions on immigration are uninformed and lead you to draw incorrect conclusions about Democratic party positions on key policy areas?
Do you still believe your political opinions are supported by facts?
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  #182  
Old 05-12-2020, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Biden is for decriminalizing illegal border crossings, abolishing ICE, eliminating border fences, and will stop deportations. LINK
Maybe it's just me, but did you just state "Biden is for decriminalizing illegal border crossings" and then link to a graphic that clearly shows Biden "oppose[s] eliminating criminal border crossing penalties"

  #183  
Old 05-12-2020, 04:28 PM
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This is why these conversations never go anywhere. There's no accountability shown for blatantly incorrect statements made nor responsibility taken for having made them.

Once again answering the question asked over and over in various ways, "What does Middle America see in Donald Trump?"

We keep wanting to know, refusing to accept that it's been answered, and has been staring us right in the face.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 05-12-2020 at 04:28 PM.
  #184  
Old 05-12-2020, 05:13 PM
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Maybe it's just me, but did you just state "Biden is for decriminalizing illegal border crossings" and then link to a graphic that clearly shows Biden "oppose[s] eliminating criminal border crossing penalties"

Ok, your right on that one. I misread the question and response. My apology.

The site had Biden listed as "unclear" on several categories.
  #185  
Old 05-12-2020, 06:23 PM
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But democrats will not be happy until we are as crowded as Japan.
Personally, I am a pro-natalist Democrat who highly values the third part of safe, legal, and rare.

However, that is NOT how typical Democrats think. The Democratic birth rate is, from my POV, pitiful. As my last link documents, it is you GOP guys who fill up the highways, while Democrats fret in their dorm rooms about alleged over-population.

And, most decades, Democrats, closely linked to labor unions. favor protecting American workers from low-wage immigrants. Bernie Sanders in 2007:

Quote:
I donít know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive waged down even lower than they are now.
Before the Tea Party, Republicans liked immigration, whether as matter of principle, or to help businesses find compliant low wage workers, you can decide. Google:

Trump golf undocumented

for examples. It's true that the parties have reversed on this, but if the GOP loses this year (as economic conditions indicate they probably will), we may see a decline of populism with a return to where the GOP is the party of employers.
  #186  
Old 05-13-2020, 05:47 AM
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So basically we've established that driving factors for middle America Trump support include strong jingoism and a view of what Democrats/liberals want and believe that owes far more to right-wing propaganda than to reality.
  #187  
Old 05-13-2020, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Ok, your right on that one. I misread the question and response. My apology.

The site had Biden listed as "unclear" on several categories.
Having been better informed about Biden's positions on key policy issues that obviously matter to you greatly, has your mind been changed in any way?
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  #188  
Old 05-13-2020, 07:43 AM
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So basically we've established that driving factors for middle America Trump support include strong jingoism and a view of what Democrats/liberals want and believe that owes far more to right-wing propaganda than to reality.
That's a majority of the people who voted for Trump. The minority (smart ones) are for "conservative judges" and "tax cut"
  #189  
Old 05-13-2020, 09:29 AM
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This is why these conversations never go anywhere. There's no accountability shown for blatantly incorrect statements made nor responsibility taken for having made them.

Once again answering the question asked over and over in various ways, "What does Middle America see in Donald Trump?"

We keep wanting to know, refusing to accept that it's been answered, and has been staring us right in the face.
Part of the problem is that we get multiple answers, from the useful and insightful, to frankly absurd ones like "they get to be their true racist selves under Trump."

I mean, I'm not saying that a lot of middle America isn't somewhat racist, albeit in a more casual/ignorant/unexposed kind of way, but nor do I think there's a massive hotbed of people who are... actively racist and looking to stick it to people of color. And even at that, it assumes that their desire to be racist trumps their desire to better their own lot in life and that of their communities, and that's a VERY hard sell for me.

I think at best, middle America views the problems of people of color as something that takes place in large urban areas, are things that happen to other people with different skin colors and cultures. And largely, those things are viewed as self-inflicted through poor spending habits, promiscuity, and a host of other behaviors that middle America does not agree with or condone. So it's terribly easy for them to write that whole group off as having done it to themselves and not want to "throw good money after bad" in social programs or other stuff like that, especially like it seems like their tax money is getting siphoned out of their pockets and to those other people to solve problems middle America perceives as self inflicted .

If that's directly racist, then so be it. But I think it's disingenuous and not helpful to imply that they're all a bunch of low-rent Exalted Cyclopses out in the boonies whose purpose in life is to screw people of color. The reality is a lot more complicated than that.
  #190  
Old 05-13-2020, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by bump View Post
Part of the problem is that we get multiple answers, from the useful and insightful, to frankly absurd ones like "they get to be their true racist selves under Trump."

I mean, I'm not saying that a lot of middle America isn't somewhat racist, albeit in a more casual/ignorant/unexposed kind of way, but nor do I think there's a massive hotbed of people who are... actively racist and looking to stick it to people of color. And even at that, it assumes that their desire to be racist trumps their desire to better their own lot in life and that of their communities, and that's a VERY hard sell for me.

I think at best, middle America views the problems of people of color as something that takes place in large urban areas, are things that happen to other people with different skin colors and cultures. And largely, those things are viewed as self-inflicted through poor spending habits, promiscuity, and a host of other behaviors that middle America does not agree with or condone. So it's terribly easy for them to write that whole group off as having done it to themselves and not want to "throw good money after bad" in social programs or other stuff like that, especially like it seems like their tax money is getting siphoned out of their pockets and to those other people to solve problems middle America perceives as self inflicted .

If that's directly racist, then so be it. But I think it's disingenuous and not helpful to imply that they're all a bunch of low-rent Exalted Cyclopses out in the boonies whose purpose in life is to screw people of color. The reality is a lot more complicated than that.
Yes and no. Middle America is plagued with the same afflictions that plague inner cities and poor suburbs: substance abuse, under employment, poor health and poor access to healthcare, poor education and poor access to good education. They suffer from the same afflictions. The difference seems to be that poor minorities don't blame or try to punish Middle America for their problems. Whereas...
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 05-13-2020 at 10:23 AM.
  #191  
Old 05-13-2020, 10:36 AM
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In my opinion, it isn't what they see, it's what they don't see.

He is not a polished career politician
  #192  
Old 05-13-2020, 10:44 AM
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Ok, your right on that one. I misread the question and response. My apology.

The site had Biden listed as "unclear" on several categories.
But you clearly ascribed to Biden a wish to abolish ICE - "Biden is for decriminalizing illegal border crossings, abolishing ICE"

And yet, your site says "UNCLEAR/NO RESPONSE"

Where are you getting your information that Biden is for "abolishing ICE"?
  #193  
Old 05-13-2020, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
In my opinion, it isn't what they see, it's what they don't see.

He is not a polished career politician
Nor a polished turd, despite the strenuous efforts of Fox News.
  #194  
Old 05-13-2020, 10:52 AM
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In my opinion, it isn't what they see, it's what they don't see.

He is not a polished career politician
No. It's what they refuse to see. Which is a different thing entirely.
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  #195  
Old 05-13-2020, 11:02 AM
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Another, on another thread I discussed a Harvard professor who wants to ban homeschooling.

Trump of course will work to stop this.

Will Biden?

Democrats get alot of support from public school unions and I'm guessing most of the people who want to ban homeschooling are on the left.

So does a person have to vote Trump in order to stop the government banning homeschooling?
  #196  
Old 05-13-2020, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Another, on another thread I discussed a Harvard professor who wants to ban homeschooling.

Trump of course will work to stop this.

Will Biden?

Democrats get alot of support from public school unions and I'm guessing most of the people who want to ban homeschooling are on the left.

So does a person have to vote Trump in order to stop the government banning homeschooling?
How about before bring up new topics, you answer the questions posed to you regarding your previous statements on what Biden's position is on certain issues?
  #197  
Old 05-13-2020, 12:30 PM
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Another, on another thread I discussed a Harvard professor who wants to ban homeschooling.

Trump of course will work to stop this.

Will Biden?
Trump, of course, will tweet nonsense about it. Betsy Devos, will continue her reign of incompetence.

Jill Biden, being an experienced educator, will advise her husband from a position of informed and educated opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Democrats get alot of support from public school unions and I'm guessing most of the people who want to ban homeschooling are on the left.
Maybe stop guessing. It hasn't gone well for you thus far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
So does a person have to vote Trump in order to stop the government banning homeschooling?
Let's get down to what this is really all about. Recently, plastic straws have been banned by many municipalities and counties. Does a person have to vote for Trump in order to stop the government banning plastic drinking straws? And who is tired of flushing toilets 10-15 times per use? And since you refuse to provide answers to the question we've already asked you, do you think we should be asking China?
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 05-13-2020 at 12:31 PM.
  #198  
Old 05-13-2020, 01:04 PM
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Now it's all a matter of perspective- we know that the last paragraph isn't true, or isn't true in the way that the conservatives are perceiving it. But they don't necessarily have any way of knowing- from their perspective, they (conservatives in the suburbs or rural areas) are working hard, trying to provide for their families, and become prosperous, all while the government keeps siphoning off a large proportion of their income as tax, and outside of police, fire and essential services, doesn't really do much in return. They don't get WIC, they don't get Medicaid, they don't get food stamps, they don't get electricity or water assistance either. Their children aren't getting free lunches at school or free school supplies either.
I get what you are saying, I just don't understand how they get that perception.

They *do* get WIC, they *do* get Medicaid and food stamps, along with utility assistance. Their children are on the meal assistance programs in schools.

Do they just see the assistance that they get as a reasonable assistance to someone down on their luck, and what other receive to be a handout siphoning off their tax dollars?

And sure, not everyone in rural or suburban areas is on assistance, just as not everyone in a city is on assistance. So do the working ruralites think as poorly about their neighbor using their EBT card as they do when it is used by an urbanite?

If they are against all assistance for the poor, at least they are consistent. But I have the feeling that they feel that not only are they superior to people who live in cities, but that their poor are superior to the poor in a city as well.
  #199  
Old 05-13-2020, 01:47 PM
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This isn't that deep. Magats are people who have been radicalized by social media. We are experiencing a world where extreme rightwing talking points are being mainstreamed and fed to boomers through Facebook & Youtube. These people were already basically time travelers who were completely ignorant to how the Internet works, so they were easy targets for propaganda campaigns. Fox News is a noble paragon of truth compared to what boomers are absorbing on the internet these days.

Check out these replies to Liz Cheney's uncharacteristically decent tweet about Fauci and weep.

Spend an evening scrolling through the comments section of a websites like Drudge, OAN, Infowars or Brietbart. Just go to YouTube and let the algorithms take you down some really dark paths and you will be shocked.

I was ignorant to all this until my own boomer parents fell victim to the cult. They began sending me bizarre videos and articles daily, as if they were in a panic after waking up to the Truth and they needed to spread the world to other sheeple. This is truly dark stuff- the federal government is run by pedophiless, your food & water is being poisoned, Israel secretly controls the world and they are gearing up to launch nukes at the Vatican, the works. QAnon is basically gospel. I can't even have a phone conversation with them anymore, because it always leads back to the delirious propaganda they are being fed. Of course, they believe COVID-19 is a vast conspiracy, and they threw away all their masks and gloves weeks ago and have given up on social distancing. They mock me for pushing back on their nonsense, so I don't bother. Like typical boomers, they are convinced they know everything, despite not having a clue about anything.

My parents are white working class. My mom was a waitress, my dad worked construction & sold used cars on the side. They are semi-retired now, but they never stop complaining about their lots in life despite living in middle class comfort. Both immigrants, but they've been here long enough that they resent other immigrants. They are Trump's base. Sad, but true, and there's nothing I can do about it. They are so deep in the cult that if Trump one day tweeted to everyone that people should disown their non-MAGA family members, I would probably never hear from them again.

These people number in the tens of millions. Whites without college degrees alone outnumber ALL minorities in this country. And they're not just in rural backwaters.

Last edited by pjacks; 05-13-2020 at 01:49 PM.
  #200  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:31 AM
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Another, on another thread I discussed a Harvard professor who wants to ban homeschooling.
Wrong. As repeatedly pointed out to you in that thread, you have misunderstood what the professor actually proposed.

As another poster explained, the professor advocated a "presumptive ban" on homeschooling in the same way that there exists a "presumptive ban" on driving a car. Namely, by default people aren't allowed to do it until they've met certain criteria indicating that they're qualified to do it.

Homeschooling would be "banned" under this proposal only in the sense that driving a car is "banned".
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