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Old 05-10-2020, 12:50 AM
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My Biden Issue


Coming off 8 years of Ronald Reagan, I wanted to see the Democratic party field a decent competitor. I was more than pissed at Reagan, although had mostly myself to blame: I'd figured he'd be fiscally conservative and balance the budget and get responsible spending levels implemented; but I figured he was just giving lip service to shutting down abortion rights, doing a song and dance for those idiots silly enough to trust what he was peddlin' them. Welll, I'll be damned. Kickin' it on abortion restrictions for real but diving right down into deficit spending like a gambler with a bad habit.

I liked that 1988 vintage Biden. stood for the right stuff, had some personal presence, sounded like he knew what he was doing. Then the freaking idiot got nailed for plaigiarizing speeches that someone else already gave, bloody fucking hell what an unforced error, you can't get a goddam speech writer? And dropped out and gave us Michael Fucking Dukakis. Mikey Dukakis makes Hillary Clinton look warm and charismatic. He could make her seem down to earth and relatable. But no, he just tromped out there in his tank and gave a bad answer about how he'd feel if evil street riffraff did unmentionable things to his wife.

And all through it I wanted Biden back. Wanted to whack him upside the head for the stupid idiotic plaigiarism thing, but should have been him.

I ain't against him now. I want to hear him explain that the charges like Tara Reade's need to be taken seriously. I want to see him position himself as a person who is doing so, not dismissing them, not confirming them, but saying "we need to have this public conversation about what happened". He needs to say women need to be believed and show that that applies even when he's the alleged perp. He can say "Here is what my memory is of the event; memory is a limited and tricky thing, shaped by our own interests and concerns at the time". He can say "I believe she is telling the truth as best she understands it and recalls it, even though it doesn't match my own recollection. And experiences are real, and I want to apologize to Tara Reade for my behaviors and how they impacted her. I would never have violated her boundaries or overstepped her consent on purpose and I am sorry that she experienced those events in that way. I thank her for bringing this forward and celebrate her courage in doing so. The accusations are serious and should be addressed with great gravity. Before you all, I can only answer with my honest best recollection, but we all need to realize that people in situations like this don't always come back with the same story to tell, because we interpret things through the lens of our own experiences and understandings. The fact that I don't remember things the same way Tara Reade describes them does not make her wrong; I need to keep that in mind, as do you. Let's listen to her account and then see what can be done to make it right. For myself, I can only tell you that I don't at all regard it as okay to use coercion or to trespass across people's personal sexual boundaries. Sexual harassment is a real problem and it will be taken seriously"
  #2  
Old 05-10-2020, 01:42 AM
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(D) primary voters picked Biden, not another contender. Tara Reade's story changes and Russian propagandist link hurt her credibility. If you have an issue with Biden, would you prefer the current administration retain power?
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Old 05-10-2020, 05:39 AM
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Although in principle I agree, in the reality we have, I will gladly vote for Biden. He's a flawed old white guy with a past, but you'd have to dredge the nether regions of hell to find a more horrible candidate than trump.
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Old 05-10-2020, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
I ain't against him now. I want to hear him explain that the charges like Tara Reade's need to be taken seriously. I want to see him position himself as a person who is doing so, not dismissing them, not confirming them, but saying "we need to have this public conversation about what happened". He needs to say women need to be believed and show that that applies even when he's the alleged perp. He can say "Here is what my memory is of the event; memory is a limited and tricky thing, shaped by our own interests and concerns at the time". He can say "I believe she is telling the truth as best she understands it and recalls it, even though it doesn't match my own recollection. And experiences are real, and I want to apologize to Tara Reade for my behaviors and how they impacted her. I would never have violated her boundaries or overstepped her consent on purpose and I am sorry that she experienced those events in that way. I thank her for bringing this forward and celebrate her courage in doing so. The accusations are serious and should be addressed with great gravity. Before you all, I can only answer with my honest best recollection, but we all need to realize that people in situations like this don't always come back with the same story to tell, because we interpret things through the lens of our own experiences and understandings. The fact that I don't remember things the same way Tara Reade describes them does not make her wrong; I need to keep that in mind, as do you. Let's listen to her account and then see what can be done to make it right. For myself, I can only tell you that I don't at all regard it as okay to use coercion or to trespass across people's personal sexual boundaries. Sexual harassment is a real problem and it will be taken seriously"
Biden said two things:
- Reade has the right to say her peace and should be taken seriously
- It did not happen

Seems to me it addresses both your concerns. It would be stupid for him to use the specific language you would like him to use because it leaves him vulnerable to accusations for an event he claims never happened. Furthermore, Tara Reade's own words and actions make her less and less credible as more information is made public.

Frankly, Reade's emerging history should give you far greater pause than Biden's. That you need him to express some level of remorse or culpability for something he claims he didn't do is frankly your problem to work through.

The idea of #BelieveWomen is to take their allegations seriously, not dismiss them or blame them as has been done in the past. But it doesn't imply automatic unquestioning acceptance. And since you brought up Reagan, it behooves you to keep in mind a phrase he made famous, "Trust, but Verify".
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Old 05-10-2020, 11:25 AM
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The absolute last thing on earth that Biden needs to be doing right now is saying another goddamn word about the issue of sexual assault - whether it pertains to him or to anyone else. That is the very LAST THING ON EARTH he needs to do. There is NO possible reward for "addressing" it any further than he already as, and many, many, MANY MANY MANY possible ways to fuck things up for himself. So his best bet moving forward is to lean into the economy and the virus mitigation. JOBS. CORONAVIRUS. Not another goddamn thing more!
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Old 05-12-2020, 11:38 PM
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I said in the other thread that using such statement like "She has a right to say it" and those other deferential remarks are bizarre at minimum. When someone makes a false allegation against you, a regular person fires back and is indignant about it.

But Biden's hitching up to the #metoo movement has put him in an awkward position. His statement should be along the lines of: "When I say to believe women and take their accusations seriously, I am speaking as a third party judging the veracity of a claim. This does not apply to an accused because the accused is in a unique position to know the facts. I stand by my prior claim that women should be treated fairly, but I can tell you that as a target of this allegation, it is false, slanderous and she should be ashamed of falsely accusing me of it." And then let it go.

This is petard hoisting of Biden because of his untenable support for the #metoo movement and the chickens are roosting on him. It was an inevitable consequence of that silly standard, but I think he can still dodge it by saying something along the lines I suggested.
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Old 05-12-2020, 11:53 PM
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I can't find the Twitter post now that I agree with but it was, basically, this:

"Biden is not my first or second or even seventh choice but Trump is my 243,000,000th choice."

Sums it up for me.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 05-12-2020 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 05-13-2020, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
I can't find the Twitter post now that I agree with but it was, basically, this:

"Biden is not my first or second or even seventh choice but Trump is my 243,000,000th choice."

Sums it up for me.
Well, yeah, for me also.
  #9  
Old 05-13-2020, 09:39 AM
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I agree with those who say Biden doesn't need to say any more than he already has.

This part of the OP, however, I really disagree with.
Quote:
The fact that I don't remember things the same way Tara Reade describes them does not make her wrong;
Yes, memory can be tricky. But I can tell you with 100% certainty, I never pushed a woman against a wall and penetrated her with my fingers. If someone said that I did, I could, without hesitation, say "it didn't happen." Not "I don't remember things the same way." There are a ton of other things in my life I might have a flawed memory about, but I have no problem saying "I never shot a person," "I never hit my wife," or "I never jumped out of an airplane."

If Biden says it didn't happen it's either because 1) it didn't happen, or 2) he's lying. I don't buy the idea that he just remembers it differently.
  #10  
Old 05-13-2020, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I said in the other thread that using such statement like "She has a right to say it" and those other deferential remarks are bizarre at minimum. When someone makes a false allegation against you, a regular person fires back and is indignant about it.

But Biden's hitching up to the #metoo movement has put him in an awkward position. His statement should be along the lines of: "When I say to believe women and take their accusations seriously, I am speaking as a third party judging the veracity of a claim. This does not apply to an accused because the accused is in a unique position to know the facts. I stand by my prior claim that women should be treated fairly, but I can tell you that as a target of this allegation, it is false, slanderous and she should be ashamed of falsely accusing me of it." And then let it go.

This is petard hoisting of Biden because of his untenable support for the #metoo movement and the chickens are roosting on him. It was an inevitable consequence of that silly standard, but I think he can still dodge it by saying something along the lines I suggested.
I think that taking your advice as to how Biden should handle the situation is akin to taking the advice of the person sitting opposite of you at the poker table as to how you should play your cards.
  #11  
Old 05-13-2020, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
He can say "Here is what my memory is of the event; memory is a limited and tricky thing, shaped by our own interests and concerns at the time". He can say "I believe she is telling the truth as best she understands it and recalls it, even though it doesn't match my own recollection. And experiences are real, and I want to apologize to Tara Reade for my behaviors and how they impacted her.
Look, I'm no fan of Biden, but if she's lying, if he didn't reach under her skirt and stick his fingers in her genitals, I do not think he has ANY obligation to make it sound like that happened even in her wildest imagination, or apologize for her "experiences". Either he stuck his finger in her genitals or he didn't. There is no in between.

The only reason he should apologize is if he actually DID do it, or if he's so far gone mentally that he isn't sure if it happened or not (a credible possibility these days), or, if his faculties are okay and he's done so many inappropriate things, to so many women, that he can't remember if she was one of them (possible, but where are the other women?). Any of those (imo) being a disqualifier for running for President. I'm not gonna say wether this happened or not. I don't know. But this game of playing along with allegedly false accusations and humoring them is absolutely ridiculous. Yeah, Tara Reade has the right to make the accusation. She has the right to be heard. But she does NOT have the right to lie, and if she is, Biden is completely entitled to forcefully deny it.

And I would say about ANY sexual assault case.

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-13-2020 at 11:16 AM.
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