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  #101  
Old 05-21-2020, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
You want the USA to be more like GB or Israel, then?

Multiple parties is no guarantee of a less sucky choice.
Coalition governments can certainly have their own problems.

But at least no one can bitch they have little choice at the polls.
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  #102  
Old 05-21-2020, 12:39 PM
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Okay, so let's test this. Let's say there are two Democratic candidates, and you get to choose one of them to go up against Trump.

Candidate A is going to fight for the issues you care about, and he's going to work hard to reverse the damage Trump has caused. You know (because it's a hypothetical and I say so) that he has a 75% chance of beating Trump.

Candidate B is going to do absolutely nothing. Like, he's going to put his feet up on the President's desk, crack open a beer, and just stay there like a barnacle for four years. Nothing will get any better, but nothing will get any worse either. But he's guaranteed to beat Trump.

Which candidate do you pick? Also, would your answer change if candidate A had a 99% chance of winning?
75% person every time. Easy.
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  #103  
Old 05-21-2020, 12:46 PM
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Be that as it may. Ratings don't put a candidate into office. Votes do, and once again, looking at history--another cold hard reality--the votes just don't come in for a guy like Biden running against an incumbent.
Uhh... what? No idea what that has to do with anything I was saying or arguing.
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  #104  
Old 05-21-2020, 01:01 PM
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(ellipses and bolding mine)

Leaving aside the practical consideration that no citizen would pack another sandbag in this situation if he or she had any other viable alternative, the whole reason we have free elections is to prevent this kind of leader from getting into the White House to begin with.
You're totally misinterpreting my analogy. Which is partly my fault, as it was somewhat unclear, because in my fictional village, there was an election, but then also a flood, and I'm trying to analogize the flood in the analogy to an election in the real world.

Let me rephrase things slightly. There's no mayor in the village at all. Rather, there was a random smart guy named Shmernie Shmanders in the village who tried to convince everyone that we should all work a little harder and build a stone wall. But most people didn't listen. For whatever reason. So there is no stone wall.

And flood season comes. And you were someone who really took Shmanders seriously, and you wanted to build the stone wall, and you canvassed for the stone wall. But now, it doesn't matter how sensible the stone wall idea was, it doesn't matter how right you were and how wrong everyone else is. There is no longer any time to build a stone wall.

The only two possible outcomes are flood kills everyone and sandbag wall.

You still have a civic responsibility to help build the sandbag wall. You owe it to yourself and to the village as a whole. And you might think "but if I don't carry a sandbag, then maybe 'they' will get the message and see how few sandbags there are, and realize that we really do need the stone wall next time". Sure, maybe. Did 'they' get the message the last 5 floods when we only barely had enough sandbags? No, of course not. Because there is no 'they'. And while you're dicking around with trying to decide whether messages will or not be received by mysterious theys, if we don't get enough sandbags this time the flood will KILL US ALL so get your damn sandbag.

If we don't get enough votes Trump will win a second term and appoint several more justices to the SC and continue his war on governmental checks and balances and McConnell will continue to appoint judges and suppress votes and democracy as we know it in the USA will be fatally wounded and no progressive policies will have a chance generations, if ever. So pick up the damn sandbag and vote for Biden.
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  #105  
Old 05-21-2020, 02:18 PM
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You're totally misinterpreting my analogy. Which is partly my fault, as it was somewhat unclear, because in my fictional village, there was an election, but then also a flood, and I'm trying to analogize the flood in the analogy to an election in the real world.

Let me rephrase things slightly. There's no mayor in the village at all. Rather, there was a random smart guy named Shmernie Shmanders in the village who tried to convince everyone that we should all work a little harder and build a stone wall. But most people didn't listen. For whatever reason. So there is no stone wall.

And flood season comes. And you were someone who really took Shmanders seriously, and you wanted to build the stone wall, and you canvassed for the stone wall. But now, it doesn't matter how sensible the stone wall idea was, it doesn't matter how right you were and how wrong everyone else is. There is no longer any time to build a stone wall.

The only two possible outcomes are flood kills everyone and sandbag wall.

You still have a civic responsibility to help build the sandbag wall. You owe it to yourself and to the village as a whole. And you might think "but if I don't carry a sandbag, then maybe 'they' will get the message and see how few sandbags there are, and realize that we really do need the stone wall next time". Sure, maybe. Did 'they' get the message the last 5 floods when we only barely had enough sandbags? No, of course not. Because there is no 'they'. And while you're dicking around with trying to decide whether messages will or not be received by mysterious theys, if we don't get enough sandbags this time the flood will KILL US ALL so get your damn sandbag.
I did not misrepresent your analogy at all. What you've given me here is an entirely new analogy.

I mean, if I were a third party voter, my response gets real simple real quickly.

No.

OK? No. No, I'm not going to pick up the sandbag. I did not create this situation. I am dealing with it. You are not my feudal lord, and I am not your serf. Unless we are living in anarchy already--in which case, the analogy is over before it begins, as there's nothing to vote for in an anarchy--SOMEONE is responsible for making sure the flood doesn't happen. That someone has screwed it up five times. Who's to say they won't screw it up six? The fact that you believe I'm going to pick up a sandbag just because you tell me to (not even saying "please," I might add) pretty much tells me the opposite.

So no. No, you don't get to just walk away from this one. No, I'm not going to enable your incompetence, short-sightedness, and lack of vision. This time, Dear Leader, you are on your own. This time, YOU pay the check.

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If we don't get enough votes Trump will win a second term and appoint several more justices to the SC and continue his war on governmental checks and balances and McConnell will continue to appoint judges and suppress votes and democracy as we know it in the USA will be fatally wounded and no progressive policies will have a chance generations, if ever.
And you know something? There have always been floods, OK? Crops have been ruined and people have drowned since before biblical times. It has rained on the just and the unjust. Supreme Court justices are no more immune to death than anyone else, and we will always have power-hungry people willing to suppress the rights of the less fortunate. Me picking up the sandbag, voting for a total zitbrain, or making excuses for why things just have to be the way they are isn't going to change that. Not one bit. The last I checked I lived in a free society where no one gets to tell me what I can and can't do within the boundaries of just law or for whom I can and can't vote. If I can't vote my conscience, if I have to follow the party line and excuse the party screw-ups, why even give me a vote to begin with? People speak of incrementalism. Show me one example, just one on the presidential level where incrementalism actually worked, and maybe I'll reconsider. Probably not, though.

If you want to play the game, if you want to chow down on the same poopsicle they've been feeding you since the Clinton years, be my guest. There's the sand, and there's the bag. I'm through being the patsy.

That's more or less what I would say if I were a third-party voter. That's more or less what I would say if the flood were threatening my village. Then I'd find a new village and a new game and a new candidate. You're welcome to come along. But I'm not playin' and I'm not stayin'. Not with the old guard.
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  #106  
Old 05-21-2020, 02:21 PM
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Coalition governments can certainly have their own problems.

But at least no one can bitch they have little choice at the polls.
You dont. Let us say you belong to the small Doper party. The platform of the Doper party matches what you want almost to a T. Yay!

But they then form a Coalition with the Asshole party, a party you despise and hate. The coalition picks the leader of the Asshole party for PM. You hate that guy.

You really have no choice. Yes, your Doper party, in forming that coalition will likely get a bone tossed to it- free coffee mugs for members or extra jackboot polish for the leaders. But 99% of what you joined the Doper party for isnt gonna get done.

Or you can join one of the two big partys- which are effectively like the USA Dems vs Repubs. And you might get 60% of what you want when they are in power.
  #107  
Old 05-21-2020, 03:21 PM
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Then it's our job and our responsibility to convince them to do otherwise, Jasmine, because while truth might have a liberal bias, cold hard reality has been swinging right these past few years.
If you're including yourself in that "our job" comment, then I'd suggest humbly that you join us in that exercise of responsibility to convince instead of incessantly repeating the arguments of those third party voters. As if "we" don't already understand their thinking... Yeah, we know they (and you) don't like the Dem nominees in 2016 and 2020. No shit. They (and you) were wrong about Clinton and you're wrong about Biden. Because it's not about committee votes from 20 or 30 years ago, or about campaign contributions from 1 percenters, or ties to powerful industries, or about rhetoric used in floor debates and speeches; it's about which sets of priorities, processes and philosophies are going to prevail in Congress and in the Executive branch.

Fuck any more analogies, let's go with a raw statement of the electoral reality. Right now we have an Executive branch determined to tear down the system and replace it with a dumbed down fascism borne of white resentment, greed and bone deep, proud ignorance. And those assholes are doing everything they can to suppress votes and to cheat the majority out of power. If that set of priorities and disdain for process and lack of coherent philosophy prevails, we may indeed not have another shot at fixing things until we're rebuilding what used to be our country after it all collapses. Assuming there's enough of us left.

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  #108  
Old 05-21-2020, 03:32 PM
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If you're including yourself in that "our job" comment, then I'd suggest humbly that you join us in that exercise of responsibility to convince instead of incessantly repeating the arguments of those third party voters. As if "we" don't already understand their thinking... Yeah, we know they (and you) don't like the Dem nominees in 2016 and 2020. No shit. They (and you) were wrong about Clinton and you're wrong about Biden. Because it's not about committee votes from 20 or 30 years ago, or about campaign contributions from 1 percenters, or ties to powerful industries, or about rhetoric used in floor debates and speeches; it's about which sets of priorities, processes and philosophies are going to prevail in Congress and in the Executive branch.
You were wrong in 1976, you were wrong in 1992, and you're wrong now.

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Fuck any more analogies, let's go with a raw statement of the electoral reality. Right now we have an Executive branch determined to tear down the system and replace it with a dumbed down fascism borne of white resentment, greed and bone deep, proud ignorance. And those assholes are doing everything they can to suppress votes and to cheat the majority out of power. If that set of priorities and disdain for process and lack of coherent philosophy prevails, we may indeed not have another shot at fixing things until we're rebuilding what used to be our country after it all collapses. Assuming there's enough of us left.
I've been listening to that since Reagan. Hell, how many posters in 2016 were wondering out loud if we were going to have elections in 2020? And yet, here we are. At some point, the barnyard animals are just going to tune Chicken Little out.

I'll most likely vote Biden. But I'm not going to blame anyone who doesn't, and xenophon, that includes Trump voters. I'm a dem, and I'm sick of Biden's shit.
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  #109  
Old 05-21-2020, 03:43 PM
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As a third-party voter, no, not unless the worse candidate wins by exactly 1 vote and my home state was the deciding swing state.
Yes, what you said.. But I wouldn't feel guilty, I'd feel.... powerful. Plus, its the only way to have leverage. If you keep voting for the evil of two lessers, they take your vote for granted and will never do shit for you.

I think the only wasted vote is voting for someone you can't stand, which is the case in this and the last election.

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  #110  
Old 05-21-2020, 03:51 PM
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I don't know what 1976, 1992 and Ronald Reagan have to do with what I said about priorities, etc. But hey, good for you for fearlessly facing the Trump years, Linty Fresh. This administration is exactly comparable to Reagan's, so what, me worry?
  #111  
Old 05-21-2020, 04:03 PM
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If only I hadn't expressed that regretful chicken littlism in 1976. I know I was only 3 years old but I was just repeating what my parents told me to.

Now, on the other hand, if I had never expressed opinions about the fragility of democracy in any of those other examples, then I guess we'd have to discuss this case on its merits instead of conflating me with what other people said previously.
  #112  
Old 05-21-2020, 04:08 PM
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I actually did say Carter would be a shitty president in 1976. (But I was young, politically ignorant and inexperienced at the time, so it was just a lucky guess.) -But what I didn't say was anything about fascism or antidemocratic conspiracies in the Republican party. Didn't start seeing the antidemocratic movement until Speaker Gingrich, and didn't start seeing the authoritarianism, shading into fascism until the Cheney administration. YMMV.

Last edited by xenophon41; 05-21-2020 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Reagan on the brain...
  #113  
Old 05-21-2020, 04:51 PM
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You dont. Let us say you belong to the small Doper party. The platform of the Doper party matches what you want almost to a T. Yay!

But they then form a Coalition with the Asshole party, a party you despise and hate. The coalition picks the leader of the Asshole party for PM. You hate that guy.

You really have no choice. Yes, your Doper party, in forming that coalition will likely get a bone tossed to it- free coffee mugs for members or extra jackboot polish for the leaders. But 99% of what you joined the Doper party for isnt gonna get done.

Or you can join one of the two big partys- which are effectively like the USA Dems vs Repubs. And you might get 60% of what you want when they are in power.
How do you think a democracy works?

Would I like it if I started a party that always got its way and won the election? Everything I ever wanted to happen would happen because no one could tell me otherwise?

Sounds great if I am running the show. Also sounds like a dictatorship.

Democracy is about making compromise. Something conservatives have almost completely forgotten about in the US.

Making deals and giving some and taking some is the bread-and-butter of a democracy. Also, your coalition will probably have a few BIG things it will not compromise on so it will compromise a little or a lot on a whole slew of other stuff.

Do I care about that other stuff? Sure! But that is part of the deal.

A dictatorship is way, way, way worse unless you are the one always getting his way.
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  #114  
Old 05-21-2020, 04:57 PM
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I actually did say Carter would be a shitty president in 1976. (But I was young, politically ignorant and inexperienced at the time, so it was just a lucky guess.) -But what I didn't say was anything about fascism or antidemocratic conspiracies in the Republican party. Didn't start seeing the antidemocratic movement until Speaker Gingrich, and didn't start seeing the authoritarianism, shading into fascism until the Cheney administration. YMMV.
You though Gerald Ford would be better?

But I would concede you are mostly right about how downhill the GOP has gotten and when.
  #115  
Old 05-21-2020, 04:59 PM
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Why shouldn't I vote for the person I think is the best candidate? Why shouln't I vote for the person who I think has the best policies? It's still a free country and I can vote for whoever I want. I wouldn't feel responsible if the worst option got in, it woud be the responsibility of whoever lost the election for not running a better campaign in the first place.
You can vote for whichever candidate you want. If you don't live in a swing state, your vote won't matter.

Why shouldn't you vote for the person you think is the best candidate [who is a third-party candidate]? In a swing state, your vote does count. It is a given that the third-party candidate will not win. Voting for the third-party candidate makes you a Morally Superior Voter. But the practical upshot is that you are actually voting for the person you least want to win.
  #116  
Old 05-21-2020, 05:09 PM
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....

Democracy is about making compromise. Something conservatives have almost completely forgotten about in the US.

Making deals and giving some and taking some is the bread-and-butter of a democracy. Also, your coalition will probably have a few BIG things it will not compromise on so it will compromise a little or a lot on a whole slew of other stuff.

.....
Sure, but you said "But at least no one can bitch they have little choice at the polls.". In a parliamentary system, they have only slightly more chance than the two party system. Both rely upon compromise.
  #117  
Old 05-21-2020, 05:11 PM
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You can vote for whichever candidate you want. If you don't live in a swing state, your vote won't matter.
....
As I pointed out before: Oddly, trump got very excited and claimed massive fraud when it was shown that he lost the Popular vote. The dems could claim a mild but not very relevant moral victory in winning the popular vote. So the popular vote mattered to both sides.

So, no, your vote is never irrelevant.
  #118  
Old 05-21-2020, 05:15 PM
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Sure, but you said "But at least no one can bitch they have little choice at the polls.". In a parliamentary system, they have only slightly more chance than the two party system. Both rely upon compromise.
I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

Many here are griping that they do not want to vote for the piece of shit Party A and B offer. I mentioned ranked choice so you can vote for whoever with a clear conscience.

You mentioned other countries that do that but still have problems. I said at least the person got to vote for who they wanted.

Then...not sure where you are going with this.
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  #119  
Old 05-21-2020, 07:47 PM
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You though Gerald Ford would be better?
Oh, no. I was angry at Ford for pardoning Nixon. I just thought Jimmy would be crappy because I thought Kennedy should've been nominated. (Again, I was young, ignorant and mostly sneered at 'politics.' I idolized the name Kennedy because of JFK and RFK, and knew next to nothing about Edward Kennedy or Jimmy Carter. I was eligible to vote for the first time in 1976, but I didn't. -That's how dumb I was.)

-By the way, I acknowledge that Carter's was not a successful administration by most measures, but I think he's been a national asset continuously as an ex POTUS.
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  #120  
Old 05-21-2020, 09:18 PM
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I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

Many here are griping that they do not want to vote for the piece of shit Party A and B offer. I mentioned ranked choice so you can vote for whoever with a clear conscience.

You mentioned other countries that do that but still have problems. I said at least the person got to vote for who they wanted.

Then...not sure where you are going with this.
Well, they get to vote for who they want here.

If you are saying in a parliamentary system, the ability to vote for a minor party means something, you are incorrect. No more than here.
  #121  
Old 05-21-2020, 09:19 PM
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...

-By the way, I acknowledge that Carter's was not a successful administration by most measures, but I think he's been a national asset continuously as an ex POTUS.
Best ex-president in memory, for sure.

Too bad Scoop Jackson didnt win the nom instead of Carter.
  #122  
Old 05-21-2020, 09:24 PM
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Well, they get to vote for who they want here.

If you are saying in a parliamentary system, the ability to vote for a minor party means something, you are incorrect. No more than here.
I really think we are talking about two different things.

I am not following your train of thought at all as regards this discussion.

It's probably me.
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  #123  
Old 05-22-2020, 05:00 AM
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... It's the tendency to talk in terms that imply that Biden is somehow deserving of our votes ...

Biden is not owed your vote any more than Trump is owed the votes of his base. Biden and Trump both have to EARN the votes.
There are some phrasings that seem to view politics and economics as morality plays.

"Billionaires are EVIL." Or, more commonly, "Liberals think billionaires are EVIL." "Are stock buybacks EVIL?" "Does that candidate DESERVE my vote? Did he EARN it?"

Politics and economics are NOT morality plays. They are the crafts of achieving better outcomes for human society. Please, let's not vote against society's interests because we don't like the way things are going in our fantasized soap-opera version of reality.
  #124  
Old 05-22-2020, 07:10 AM
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Politics and economics are NOT morality plays.
The philosopher William Munny put it best:
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Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it.
  #125  
Old 05-22-2020, 07:15 AM
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There are some phrasings that seem to view politics and economics as morality plays.

"Billionaires are EVIL." Or, more commonly, "Liberals think billionaires are EVIL." "Are stock buybacks EVIL?" "Does that candidate DESERVE my vote? Did he EARN it?"

Politics and economics are NOT morality plays. They are the crafts of achieving better outcomes for human society. Please, let's not vote against society's interests because we don't like the way things are going in our fantasized soap-opera version of reality.
I'd take this a whole lot more seriously if you weren't posting it on a board with a 900-page thread about how evil Trump is. Along with a good half of the front page of that particular page being about Trump in one capacity or another.

Politics and economics are certainly about achieving better outcomes for human society, but don't think for a moment that doesn't involve morality on some level. This goes beyond right and wrong; it's how politics and economics have always worked. Obama beat Romney not just because he was more charismatic: He beat Romney, because he was genuinely morally superior. When Clinton was caught with his pants down in a clear-cut case of sexual harassment, the Democrats suffered mightily in 2000 against a man who, regardless of his other faults, seemed like someone who knew how to keep it in his pants.

Economics works for or against morality, too. Economic sanctions against South Africa helped bring about the end of Apartheid. On the other hand, Roman Polanski isn't exactly starving, because people still go to see his movies. He might be morally shamed--or he would if he had a conscience--but economically, he's doing fine.

In other words, you're a little late with this sentiment, and even if you weren't, be careful what you wish for. Politics and economics have always been morality plays on one level or another. Maybe forgetting that is the reason we're in this situation to begin with.
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  #126  
Old 05-22-2020, 12:48 PM
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Okay, so let's test this. Let's say there are two Democratic candidates, and you get to choose one of them to go up against Trump.

Candidate A is going to fight for the issues you care about, and he's going to work hard to reverse the damage Trump has caused. You know (because it's a hypothetical and I say so) that he has a 75% chance of beating Trump.

Candidate B is going to do absolutely nothing. Like, he's going to put his feet up on the President's desk, crack open a beer, and just stay there like a barnacle for four years. Nothing will get any better, but nothing will get any worse either. But he's guaranteed to beat Trump.

Which candidate do you pick? Also, would your answer change if candidate A had a 99% chance of winning?
In your scenario, in the primary, I would pick A.

However, if the majority of people in my party did not agree with my impressions of candidate B, and voted for him even though they should know very well that I didn't like him, making him the nominee, I would not continue to fight about it.

And that's where we are at. The time to ask your question is during primaries. That's the time to vote for the person that inspires you the most. That's the time to make your preference known to the party.

We are past the primaries, now. Now you no longer have the choice of candidate A or B, now you have a a choice between candidate B and Trump.

As far as voting your conscience, voting for the person that best represents your views, you are not doing that either. Why are you choosing between A and B? There are a few hundred million people that are eligible for president, I'm sure one of them represents your views better than Sanders does. If you are eligible, why not run yourself? Who could possibly better represent your views than *you*?
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:33 PM
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Linty, I share your frustration about the obvious political decay within our system. I don't even know if I really disagree with you all that much, but I just ask you to reconsider your feelings about voting for Biden. You needn't feel like holding your nose or taking a shower.

If the upcoming general election were really a choice between a slow, incremental reformer and a bold progressive, you'd have an option that's better than Biden and you'd do well to vote for that option. But as it is, you're voting for a progressive coalition, of which Biden is a part, against a regressive coalition, which consists not only of Trump, but Mitch McConnell, the Supreme Court justices, Lindsey Graham, and many, many oligarch supporters.

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I've been listening to that since Reagan. Hell, how many posters in 2016 were wondering out loud if we were going to have elections in 2020? And yet, here we are. At some point, the barnyard animals are just going to tune Chicken Little out.
Institutional decay occurs gradually. We've had 4 inspectors general removed in just the past 6 weeks or so. Trump is weaponizing the Department of Justice. He is threatening to withhold money from states who are led by members of an opposition party. This is not the US tradition; this is what you see in former Soviet states.

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I'll most likely vote Biden. But I'm not going to blame anyone who doesn't, and xenophon, that includes Trump voters. I'm a dem, and I'm sick of Biden's shit.
Biden may have some bad votes to his record - I won't disagree. But he's also malleable, and that's not always bad. He can be pushed to the left. Maybe not as far as you'd like, maybe not to support Medicare for All or a national $15 minimum wage, but perhaps pushed enough to support a public health insurance option and a $10-12 minimum wage. I think it's realistic. But more than anything, Biden needs supporters. If Democrats as a party don't get enough support, then they won't encourage Biden to achieve those incremental goals.
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:39 PM
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Institutional decay occurs gradually.
You know what doesn't occur gradually? Aggressive dementia.

Biden tells black radio host that black voters ain't black if they consider voting for Trump.



Sorry to interrupt, asahi, you were busy telling me how in theory there could be an upside to this guy?
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  #129  
Old 05-22-2020, 01:50 PM
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Biden may have some bad votes to his record - I won't disagree. But he's also malleable, and that's not always bad. He can be pushed to the left. Maybe not as far as you'd like, maybe not to support Medicare for All or a national $15 minimum wage, but perhaps pushed enough to support a public health insurance option and a $10-12 minimum wage. I think it's realistic. But more than anything, Biden needs supporters. If Democrats as a party don't get enough support, then they won't encourage Biden to achieve those incremental goals.
Again, spot on. But I want to emphasize that even if a President Biden wouldn't support M4A or a $15+ minimum wage or a guaranteed basic income, which I only concede in the hypothetical here (I think he's incorporating quite a few Sanders-Warren-economic left ideas lately and is open to more), even if he didn't push for those things, he will sign the legislation a hypothetical Dem-controlled legislature sends to him. Give the Dems a larger House majority and give them the Senate and you'll see how false the "status quo Joe" meme actually is.

And we also have to take into account the actual nuts and bolts of government: Hypotheticals about Option B candidates who "will do absolutely nothing" to repair the damage from Trumpism don't apply here. That wouldn't have been true for Sanders and for most of the other several dozen Dem candidates we've gone through, and it won't be true for a President Biden, who will of course try and reverse the departmental chaos caused by President Trump's gang of sabot-wielding maniacs. Why anyone with any awareness or attention to American politics over the last quarter century would think differently, I can't imagine.
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:51 PM
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You know what doesn't occur gradually? Aggressive dementia.

Biden tells black radio host that black voters ain't black if they consider voting for Trump.



Sorry to interrupt, asahi, you were busy telling me how in theory there could be an upside to this guy?
Taken in context, that was meant in jest. And if you listen to the tape, it is very clear that Biden is quite sharp here.
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:56 PM
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OMG, Biden might have gaffed!


That's never happened before! Must be senile dementia...

Woe is us.


I'll wager twenty quatloos that remark doesn't cause a blip in support for Biden in any demographic, and especially not among POC.

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Old 05-22-2020, 01:59 PM
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Getting back to the OP, I am assuming he isn't asking about whether voting 3rd party makes electoral sense, but rather, is just asking for feelings/opinions - whether third party voters feel responsible if we let the bad guy win.

Personally, my answer is, no, I don't feel responsible.
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:59 PM
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Taken in context, that was meant in jest. And if you listen to the tape, it is very clear that Biden is quite sharp here.
Because as we all know, nothing said during an election year is ever taken out of context. And it's never a good sign when your adviser interrupts to tell the host that you're running out of time.

The hashtags have already started, DrDeth. The word is already out. And I challenge you to find one single unbanned poster on these boards that doesn't realize that you DON'T. JOKE. ABOUT. RACE!!!!! And that goes about quadruple if you're running for president of the US in the 21st century.

At least when Hillary called herself the Latino voters' abuela, she didn't go the extra mile and negate their entire heritage for not towing the goddamned Democrat line.
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  #134  
Old 05-22-2020, 02:04 PM
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Yes, that "abuela" remark was the killer comet to Hillary's presidential ambitions. To this day it remains a mark of infamy for dozens of 2016 voters.
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  #135  
Old 05-22-2020, 02:14 PM
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Yes, that "abuela" remark was the killer comet to Hillary's presidential ambitions. To this day it remains a mark of infamy for dozens of 2016 voters.
I know, right, xenophon? Remember when Hillary said that, and everyone laughed it off just like they did with all the other stupid stuff she said and did, and we all brushed it aside for the good of the country, and she won the election in a landslide? I don't know who the Republican challenger is in 2020, but man, I don't favor his odds. If VP Kaine doesn't win in '24, he's just not trying!
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  #136  
Old 05-22-2020, 02:42 PM
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Are those goalposts heavy, man? You keep trucking them all over the damned field. Need a handtruck or something?

Listen, pick a side. If you don't think people should vote for Biden, argue away. If you think it's better if they do vote for Biden, maybe stop listing reasons you think he sucks/

If you don't think the 2020 election outcome is important either way, maybe spend your energy on something you care about. I obviously can't convince you the current GOP is the existential threat to American democracy I believe it is, but maybe I can get you to reconsider this exercise in undercutting the better of the only two candidates with a shot and the political party he'll need to make any progress at all.
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:52 PM
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Are those goalposts heavy, man? You keep trucking them all over the damned field. Need a handtruck or something?

Listen, pick a side. If you don't think people should vote for Biden, argue away. If you think it's better if they do vote for Biden, maybe stop listing reasons you think he sucks/

If you don't think the 2020 election outcome is important either way, maybe spend your energy on something you care about. I obviously can't convince you the current GOP is the existential threat to American democracy I believe it is, but maybe I can get you to reconsider this exercise in undercutting the better of the only two candidates with a shot and the political party he'll need to make any progress at all.
When did I move the goalpost one inch? I've maintained the same standard since I came back on in March, certainly all the way through this thread.

You're right about one thing, though: I do not, in fact, think that the current GOP is an existential threat to American democracy. They're just a bunch of stupid old men doing the same stupid old thing. They're not wise, canny, insightful, or much more forward-thinking than we are. This year, we just happen to suck more, that's all.

And if you're so hot and bothered about me undercutting the current nominee and reminding everyone that he sucks, then put me on ignore. Just remember: It isn't going to get any nicer or any more easygoing than me. I am, after all, a Democrat. The people you're actually going to be fighting--assuming you do anything at all this election year--are going to be far, far worse, and if I don't hold back, they aren't even going to attempt to be fair.

Maybe you're mad at the wrong people, xenophon.
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  #138  
Old 05-22-2020, 03:14 PM
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You know what doesn't occur gradually? Aggressive dementia.

Biden tells black radio host that black voters ain't black if they consider voting for Trump.



Sorry to interrupt, asahi, you were busy telling me how in theory there could be an upside to this guy?
That's not an example of institutional decay; it's a joke.

Joe Biden supported expanding healthcare to millions; Trump and McConnell have repeatedly tried to take it away.

Joe Biden has been on record as arguing in favor of protecting the institutions that uphold democracy - perhaps to a fault. Trump is trying to dismantle the checks on his power.
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Old 05-22-2020, 03:41 PM
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Well thanks Linty Fresh. We seem to be back to your "Umadbro? I'm not as good at depressing voter turnout as the Republicans" argument, with an added dose of "they're just stupid old men doing the same stupid old thing" which tells me you are not the keen observer of politics you've been trying to portray.

(By the way, the "goal post moving" is when you've been shifting the focus of the remarks you get push back on (not just from me) from the specific to the general and vice versa in order to dodge the point of the rebuttal. If you stop doing that, you'll be less likely to derail good faith argumentation.)

Linty, the next part of this post is for anyone who might be swayed by your arguments, so you don't need to respond; I believe we're done. You may go now.

The US Executive branch of government, as led by Donald J. Trump, has abandoned the norms of governmental practice in a way and to a degree that no previous administration has ever done. This abandonment of executive norms, and the disregard for governmental ethics it is intended to obscure or assist, has been enabled and given cover by the President's party in the Congress. The volume and degree of the Republican skullduggery in providing that cover is almost unprecedented as well, but only insofar as it reflects the unusually virulent pathology of the Republican leader. The checks and balances built into our system of government require earnest adherence to the USC and good faith involvement on the part of all government actors; this no longer exists within the party currently in power.

You may take the above information as an opinion (as Linty certainly will), but it has a broad basis in fact and is an observation that has wide support even outside of US liberal or left politics. The current Presidential administration is not "bad" in a normal way; the practices of this administration and the perfidy of the Republican party are not "the same stupid old thing." This is not a drill and your chances to participate in the American experiment are not guaranteed to outlast this regime.

There is only one political party that has a chance of countering the antidemocratic, authoritarian path our federal government is now following, and only one Presidential candidate with a chance to displace the current occupant of the White House. You should vote for that party and that candidate.

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  #140  
Old 05-22-2020, 03:51 PM
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You know what doesn't occur gradually? Aggressive dementia.

Biden tells black radio host that black voters ain't black if they consider voting for Trump.



Sorry to interrupt, asahi, you were busy telling me how in theory there could be an upside to this guy?
I know Trump has said more racist things than that about Mexicans, and I know Trump has said more racist things than that about Muslims, but has Trump ever said anything that racist about Black Americans specifically? I mean, there's the birther stuff, of course, which is racist as hell. But at least with the birther stuff the racism was veiled by a fig leaf of (barely) plausible deniability, wherein Trump could say (untruthfully but still, he could say it) that he was legitimately "concerned" about Obama's heritage. What Joe said doesn't even have the fig leaf. It's just nakedly racist. In all seriousness, has Trump ever said anything that racist about Black Americans? I genuinely don't know.
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Old 05-22-2020, 04:09 PM
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Linty, the next part of this post is for anyone who might be swayed by your arguments, so you don't need to respond; I believe we're done. You may go now.
I can. But I won't. I don't need to. But I will.

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The US Executive branch of government, as led by Donald J. Trump, has abandoned the norms of governmental practice in a way and to a degree that no previous administration has ever done. This abandonment of executive norms, and the disregard for governmental ethics it is intended to obscure or assist, has been enabled and given cover by the President's party in the Congress. The volume and degree of the Republican skullduggery in providing that cover is almost unprecedented as well, but only insofar as it reflects the unusually virulent pathology of the Republican leader. The checks and balances built into our system of government require earnest adherence to the USC and good faith involvement on the part of all government actors; this no longer exists within the party currently in power.

You may take the above information as an opinion (as Linty certainly will), but it has a broad basis in fact and is an observation that has wide support even outside of US liberal or left politics. The current Presidential administration is not "bad" in a normal way; the practices of this administration and the perfidy of the Republican party are not "the same stupid old thing." This is not a drill and your chances to participate in the American experiment are not guaranteed to outlast this regime.

There is only one political party that has a chance of countering the antidemocratic, authoritarian path our federal government is now following, and only one Presidential candidate with a chance to displace the current occupant of the White House. You should vote for that party and that candidate.
xenophon, it IS an opinion. What you have typed here is an opinion. It might be a correct opinion. It might be a wrong opinion, but it is an opinion! And it is an opinion that, once again, I've heard since Reagan.

I mean, I heard it during the Dubya administration, and actually, in the Dubya administration, it was quite a bit closer to fact than it is now. I know it's not a drill. It's never a drill. It doesn't matter who is in the White House. It doesn't matter if it's a man or woman or whether he or she has a "D" or an "R" after the name. You never relax. You never stop holding the executive branch to account.

I'll say it again: Anti-democratic, authoritarian, and downright dangerous men have always been around. They were here before Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, and they will be here after.

The DIFFERENCE is how well you fight against them. So you think that Trump and his little cronies are going to take the constitution and shred it to use as confetti for their next victory parade in 2020? Then maybe it's time to get serious about whom you run against them. I will say it again and again: Learn the lesson from 2016. The way to beat a shitty candidate is not with a slightly less shitty candidate. I didn't write the rules, xenophon. These rules were written before either of us walked this earth, and they are right there waiting to be learned in the history books. Or the school of hard knocks. How you learn them is up to you, but never, not once have I lied to you or anyone else in this thread, nor have I said anything I didn't mean.

So tell me, xenophon. Tell me how you plan to win this election with a candidate who said what he said to that radio host. Tell me how you plan to win this election with a guy with a reputation for being handsy in an era that simply doesn't accept that any more from anyone. Tell me that an old, out-of-touch, morally bankrupt boomer can beat an incumbent president who pretty much lives to fight--AND who knows how to use the Internet. Show me how that's going to work, convince me that's going to work, and I will concede defeat, bow out of this thread, and not talk politics.

But until then, you need to hear it from somebody, so it might as well be me. Or you can put me on ignore. But I'm thinking you won't, will you?
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  #142  
Old 05-22-2020, 04:37 PM
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(By the way, the "goal post moving" is when you've been shifting the focus of the remarks you get push back on (not just from me) from the specific to the general and vice versa in order to dodge the point of the rebuttal. If you stop doing that, you'll be less likely to derail good faith argumentation.)
Oh, and quick correction: What you're describing here isn't moving the goalposts. "Moving the goalposts" refers to challenging the opponent to come up with an example of a counter-argument, and then when he or she does, immediately changing the requirements of the argument to something more specific--and thus harder to come up with. So if I challenged you to come up with an example of a four-legged animal with horns, and you come up with a horse, and then I say, "No, no, I mean a four-legged animal with a horn in the center of its forehead, and also it has to have wings," THAT'S moving the goalposts.

What you're describing here is called a shift in rhetorical focus.
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Last edited by Linty Fresh; 05-22-2020 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Also, we usually say "goalposts," the plural
  #143  
Old 05-22-2020, 04:45 PM
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I know Trump has said more racist things than that about Mexicans, and I know Trump has said more racist things than that about Muslims, but has Trump ever said anything that racist about Black Americans specifically? I mean, there's the birther stuff, of course, which is racist as hell. But at least with the birther stuff the racism was veiled by a fig leaf of (barely) plausible deniability, wherein Trump could say (untruthfully but still, he could say it) that he was legitimately "concerned" about Obama's heritage. What Joe said doesn't even have the fig leaf. It's just nakedly racist. In all seriousness, has Trump ever said anything that racist about Black Americans? I genuinely don't know.
All I get from this is that you don't understand what racism is.

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I can. But I won't. I don't need to. But I will.

xenophon, it IS an opinion. What you have typed here is an opinion. It might be a correct opinion. It might be a wrong opinion, but it is an opinion! And it is an opinion that, once again, I've heard since Reagan.

I mean, I heard it during the Dubya administration, and actually, in the Dubya administration, it was quite a bit closer to fact than it is now. I know it's not a drill. It's never a drill. It doesn't matter who is in the White House. It doesn't matter if it's a man or woman or whether he or she has a "D" or an "R" after the name. You never relax. You never stop holding the executive branch to account.
So, you don't think that Trump or the current republicans have done any damage to our norms and institutions?

I'm just not sure how credible a belief that is to hold, at this point.

Did even Bush ever take a sharpie to a map and threaten to fire anyone who contradicted him on it?
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I'll say it again: Anti-democratic, authoritarian, and downright dangerous men have always been around. They were here before Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, and they will be here after.
Absolutely, but this is the first time that we've elected them to the presidency.
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The DIFFERENCE is how well you fight against them. So you think that Trump and his little cronies are going to take the constitution and shred it to use as confetti for their next victory parade in 2020? Then maybe it's time to get serious about whom you run against them. I will say it again and again: Learn the lesson from 2016. The way to beat a shitty candidate is not with a slightly less shitty candidate. I didn't write the rules, xenophon. These rules were written before either of us walked this earth, and they are right there waiting to be learned in the history books. Or the school of hard knocks. How you learn them is up to you, but never, not once have I lied to you or anyone else in this thread, nor have I said anything I didn't mean.
And what do you want us to do? You are saying that you didn't write the rules, but you are also demonstrating that you do not understand them. Even if we suddenly had an epiphany and realized that you were absolutely correct, what could we do?

I didn't pick Biden. xenophon41 didn't pick Biden. But there he is. You can either vote for or against him at this point. All this constantly whining that you didn't get your way in the primaries has absolutely nothing to do with the pick that you currently have in front of you.

You think that he is a shitty candidate, that's great. The majority of democrats who bothered to go out and vote disagree with you. How do you think that we should pick candidates? Should we just ask you who to run, or is it okay if we perform some sort of democratic polling of those who he would represent?
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So tell me, xenophon. Tell me how you plan to win this election with a candidate who said what he said to that radio host. Tell me how you plan to win this election with a guy with a reputation for being handsy in an era that simply doesn't accept that any more from anyone. Tell me that an old, out-of-touch, morally bankrupt boomer can beat an incumbent president who pretty much lives to fight--AND who knows how to use the Internet. Show me how that's going to work, convince me that's going to work, and I will concede defeat, bow out of this thread, and not talk politics.
It really doesn't matter what they say. Sure, his comment was an unforced error, but republicans are just making themselves look foolish with their hyperbolism that it was the most racist thing that they have ever heard. They don't care about racism, they just see a dig, an attack that they can make. An opportunity to bring their opponent down, and they don't care how far down it takes them or the rest of the country, for that matter.

This gaffe will probably be repeated over and over and over till the election. Then probably over and over after that for good measure. Trump has an advantage here, you repeat Joe's gaffe over and over to remind people of it, but trying to pick which inane utterance is the most harmful and hateful just from what Trump has said today is actually a fair amount of work.

That tells me that they know that the accusation of racism is something that you can attack with, but that they don't actually understand what racism is.

He's not the ideal candidate, but no one is.
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But until then, you need to hear it from somebody, so it might as well be me. Or you can put me on ignore. But I'm thinking you won't, will you?
Okay, so I ask you again, why are you not voting for yourself? If you will only back the person who you think is the best option, who best represents your views, then you should be advocating for yourself to take the office of president.

You have already said that practical considerations don't matter, that the fact that you can't win is irrelevant, and that your duty is to vote your conscience. How can you, in good conscience, vote for someone who doesn't represent your interest 100%?

Why back Bernie, isn't there someone in the hundreds of millions of people that are eligible that would better represent your interests?

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  #144  
Old 05-22-2020, 04:55 PM
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All I get from this is that you don't understand what racism is.
I don’t care what you “get from this” if you can’t be bothered to actually answer the question.
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Old 05-22-2020, 05:01 PM
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I don’t care what you “get from this” if you can’t be bothered to actually answer the question.
Ah, it's that game. Where I point out something that Trump has said, and you say, "Oh, that's not racist."

Well, lets start here, shall we...

“I have black guys counting my money. … I hate it," Trump told John R. O'Donnell, the former president of Trump Plaza Hotel & Casino, according O'Donnell's account in his 1991 book "Trumped!" "The only guys I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes all day."

Trump, according to O'Donnell, went on to say, "'Laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that."

Now this is the part where you explain that that was not racist.

ETA: I will agree with you, however, that he has said far more racist things about Mexicans and Muslims, how you consider that to be a defense, I have no idea.

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  #146  
Old 05-22-2020, 05:01 PM
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All I get from this is that you don't understand what racism is.


So, you don't think that Trump or the current republicans have done any damage to our norms and institutions?

I'm just not sure how credible a belief that is to hold, at this point.

Did even Bush ever take a sharpie to a map and threaten to fire anyone who contradicted him on it?

Absolutely, but this is the first time that we've elected them to the presidency.

And what do you want us to do? You are saying that you didn't write the rules, but you are also demonstrating that you do not understand them. Even if we suddenly had an epiphany and realized that you were absolutely correct, what could we do?

I didn't pick Biden. xenophon41 didn't pick Biden. But there he is. You can either vote for or against him at this point. All this constantly whining that you didn't get your way in the primaries has absolutely nothing to do with the pick that you currently have in front of you.

You think that he is a shitty candidate, that's great. The majority of democrats who bothered to go out and vote disagree with you. How do you think that we should pick candidates? Should we just ask you who to run, or is it okay if we perform some sort of democratic polling of those who he would represent?

It really doesn't matter what they say. Sure, his comment was an unforced error, but republicans are just making themselves look foolish with their hyperbolism that it was the most racist thing that they have ever heard. They don't care about racism, they just see a dig, an attack that they can make. An opportunity to bring their opponent down, and they don't care how far down it takes them or the rest of the country, for that matter.

This gaffe will probably be repeated over and over and over till the election. Then probably over and over after that for good measure. Trump has an advantage here, you repeat Joe's gaffe over and over to remind people of it, but trying to pick which inane utterance is the most harmful and hateful just from what Trump has said today is actually a fair amount of work.

That tells me that they know that the accusation of racism is something that you can attack with, but that they don't actually understand what racism is.

He's not the ideal candidate, but no one is.


Okay, so I ask you again, why are you not voting for yourself? If you will only back the person who you think is the best option, who best represents your views, then you should be advocating for yourself to take the office of president.

You have already said that practical considerations don't matter, that the fact that you can't win is irrelevant, and that your duty is to vote your conscience. How can you, in good conscience, vote for someone who doesn't represent your interest 100%?

Why back Bernie, isn't there someone in the hundreds of millions of people that are eligible that would better represent your interests?
Where did I say that I wasn't going to vote for Biden? Where did I say that I don't think Trump has done any harm? Where in the name of Ned did I say that I do or ever did support Bernie. I haven't. I'll say it again: I am not and never have been a democratic socialist. Until the 2004 election, I voted straight Republican.

This is not the voting booth. This is not the debate stage. This is not a political rally. This is a message board. We're allowed and encouraged to think outside the box. This, k9 happens to be a thread about third party voters and why they might decide to vote third party. If ever there were a platform to vent about Biden, this is it, OK? How on Earth do you think I'm harming anyone? Do you think the few dozen people who still inhabit this board are going to read what I wrote and go, "Good golly, Linty makes a great point. I think I'll vote Green this year." I don't think you have to worry about that.

So where's the harm in my telling you where we screwed up? Especially when I take pains to include myself in that "we"? Even if I could sway someone (Sure!), I'll repeat: However bad I might come off to you, the real bad guys are going to be MUCH worse.

What do you want me to do? Congratulate you? Congratulate the party on nominating a seventy-something who grabs women's asses, mouths off to black radio show hosts and implies the black people who think for themselves to be race traitors (and remember, this guy makes Barry Manilow look like Huey Freeman), and doesn't even know how to use the Interwebz? What exactly do you want me to say? What do you want me to do? I'll vote for the guy, but damn, k9, don't ask me to fight for him.
__________________
It's money or time, so make up your mind.
--Grandmaster Flash

Last edited by Linty Fresh; 05-22-2020 at 05:03 PM.
  #147  
Old 05-22-2020, 05:23 PM
Unreconstructed Man is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Ah, it's that game. Where I point out something that Trump has said, and you say, "Oh, that's not racist."

Well, lets start here, shall we...

“I have black guys counting my money. … I hate it," Trump told John R. O'Donnell, the former president of Trump Plaza Hotel & Casino, according O'Donnell's account in his 1991 book "Trumped!" "The only guys I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes all day."

Trump, according to O'Donnell, went on to say, "'Laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that."

Now this is the part where you explain that that was not racist.

ETA: I will agree with you, however, that he has said far more racist things about Mexicans and Muslims, how you consider that to be a defense, I have no idea.
Who the fuck do you think you’re talking to? I pointed out that what Joe said was really fucking racist, and asked if Trump had ever said anything comparably racist about Black Americans. You’ll note (because you fucking quoted it) that I said “I genuinely don’t know.” You know why I said that? Because I didn’t fucking know! It wasn’t a rhetorical question. You’ll also note that I said was aware Trump had said more racist things about Mexicans and Muslims, implying I was certainly open to the possibility that Trump had said equally racist things about Black Americans.

And now you’re fucking goading me into justifying Trump’s “Laziness” comment? You think I was implying Trump couldn’t have said something more racist about Black Americans than what Joe said? Why? What, specifically, gave you that idea? Did you even once, for a moment, consider the possibility that I’m not aware of every single goddamn thing Trump has ever said, and that I simply didn’t know he’d said it? That I was actually asking in good faith?

You could’ve just said “Trump once said XYZ” and left it at that. That would’ve been fine. I would’ve thanked you for the information and that would’ve been the end of it. Instead, you went the other way for no good reason at all. Tell you what, next time I ask a question, any question, anywhere, please don’t answer it. We’ll both be happier if we each pretend the other doesn’t exist.
  #148  
Old 05-22-2020, 05:26 PM
k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Linty Fresh View Post
Where did I say that I wasn't going to vote for Biden? Where did I say that I don't think Trump has done any harm? Where in the name of Ned did I say that I do or ever did support Bernie. I haven't. I'll say it again: I am not and never have been a democratic socialist. Until the 2004 election, I voted straight Republican.
Where did I say that you were not going to vote for Biden?

You are certainly downplaying the dangers, with you talking about Bush being worse than Trump, that it doesn't matter who is in the white house.

If you are not supporting Bernie, then who is your hold out choice? Who is it that you would have had the democrats pick?
Quote:
This is not the voting booth. This is not the debate stage. This is not a political rally. This is a message board. We're allowed and encouraged to think outside the box. This, k9 happens to be a thread about third party voters and why they might decide to vote third party. If ever there were a platform to vent about Biden, this is it, OK? How on Earth do you think I'm harming anyone? Do you think the few dozen people who still inhabit this board are going to read what I wrote and go, "Good golly, Linty makes a great point. I think I'll vote Green this year." I don't think you have to worry about that.
I would assume that you do not confine all of your political advocacy to a message board that you claim only has a few dozen people, so I would assume that you are also spreading this same message eleswhere.

This is a debate stage, as that is what this forum is for.

This is a place for people to express why they will not vote for Biden. You have said that you are voting for Biden. So, you are not saying why you will not vote for Biden, you are saying why you *think* other people will not vote for Biden. This is not *your* platform to vent about Biden.
Quote:
So where's the harm in my telling you where we screwed up? Especially when I take pains to include myself in that "we"? Even if I could sway someone (Sure!), I'll repeat: However bad I might come off to you, the real bad guys are going to be MUCH worse.
Not all that much pains to include yourself. In your post to xenophon41 , you were very pointed and accusatory that it was all xenophon41'sfault that we have Biden. That he should have done something different to have a different nominee.
Quote:
What do you want me to do? Congratulate you?
Have a solution, rather than a complaint. Have a relevant answer as to why *you* will not vote for Biden, rather than simply sit back smarmy complaints that make you feel superior. Just a thought. Or you could keep doing what you are doing.
Quote:
Congratulate the party on nominating a seventy-something who grabs women's asses, mouths off to black radio show hosts and implies the black people who think for themselves to be race traitors (and remember, this guy makes Barry Manilow look like Huey Freeman), and doesn't even know how to use the Interwebz? What exactly do you want me to say? What do you want me to do? I'll vote for the guy, but damn, k9, don't ask me to fight for him.
What do you want me to do? Congratulate you?
  #149  
Old 05-22-2020, 05:34 PM
k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Who the fuck do you think you’re talking to?
I don't know, someone who, in our very first interaction, before I ever said anything at all to you, called me an "unrepentant cunt"
Quote:
I pointed out that what Joe said was really fucking racist, and asked if Trump had ever said anything comparably racist about Black Americans. You’ll note (because you fucking quoted it) that I said “I genuinely don’t know.” You know why I said that? Because I didn’t fucking know! It wasn’t a rhetorical question. You’ll also note that I said was aware Trump had said more racist things about Mexicans and Muslims, implying I was certainly open to the possibility that Trump had said equally racist things about Black Americans.
The fact that what Joe said wasn't racist, much less really fucking racist aside, it took me all of 15 seconds to find that quote from Trump.

Quote:
And now you’re fucking goading me into justifying Trump’s “Laziness” comment? You think I was implying Trump couldn’t have said something more racist about Black Americans than what Joe said? Why? What, specifically, gave you that idea? Did you even once, for a moment, consider the possibility that I’m not aware of every single goddamn thing Trump has ever said, and that I simply didn’t know he’d said it? That I was actually asking in good faith?
I am willing to defend Joe's "you ain't black" comment, and have done so over in the sliotd thread.

I thought that, given that you believed that Trump wouldn't have said anything racist against blacks, would have heard at lest some of the racist comments that he has made, and had some reason to defend them. You would not have been the first on this board to do exactly that.
Quote:
You could’ve just said “Trump once said XYZ” and left it at that. That would’ve been fine. I would’ve thanked you for the information and that would’ve been the end of it. Instead, you went the other way for no good reason at all. Tell you what, next time I ask a question, any question, anywhere, please don’t answer it. We’ll both be happier if we each pretend the other doesn’t exist.
Tell you what, I'll answer what questions, and respond to what comments that interest me.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 05-22-2020 at 05:36 PM.
  #150  
Old 05-22-2020, 05:46 PM
Linty Fresh is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
You are certainly downplaying the dangers, with you talking about Bush being worse than Trump, that it doesn't matter who is in the white house.
Mea maxima culpa. As I've pointed out already, I do not consider Trump to be as dangerous as Bush was.

Quote:
Have a solution, rather than a complaint. Have a relevant answer as to why *you* will not vote for Biden, rather than simply sit back smarmy complaints that make you feel superior. Just a thought. Or you could keep doing what you are doing.
A solution? You want me to come up with a solution? On a message board that has a 900-page diatribe against Trump without anyone managing to come up with a single idea? I'm a lowly archivist in a decent academic library, and you want a solution from me?. After the Democratic party basically fucked itself seven ways from Sunday? Why didn't anyone ask for my opinion before we nominated Biden? Why didn't I get consulted before the powers that be sat down and decided "Yeah, this guy represents us!" Well . . . OK. Here's my solution.

Could we try . . . ohhhhh, I don't know, growing the fuck up, stop whining about how that mean, awful, nasty, stupid, tiny-fingered man with the bad tan job had the brass BALLS to beat our annoying, incompetent candidate and then . . . gasp . . . actually do something that appealed to his base? Without even consulting us? After he kicked our miserable asses?

And . . . get this. Are you sitting down for this? He's going to do it again!! After we explicitly and consistently screamed about how much we didn't want him to do this, he is going to ignore us, and he's going to run the same campaign, and he's going to sound really, really stupid, and we're going to hate it, hate it, hate it, and maybe we'll come up with some new Pit threads and some new lame nicknames for him, and we're going to yell really, really loudly about how this is truly going to suck. And just because we nominated a Democratic candidate that was every bit as clumsy, uncharismatic, and gaffe-prone as Hillary.

Can you imagine that, k9? I mean, I'm pissed off. Imagine, losing for the second time, just because you didn't learn a damned thing the first time around and repeated the same mistakes. Can you actually believe that we're going to lose this election, just because we took the bait every time it was offered instead of learning how to play our own game and clean up our own house, and maybe run someone who wasn't well past mandatory retirement age who thinks that women's bodies are his personal playground and who can't seem to place his order at a McDonald's drive-thru without having to apologize for something stupid he said? The nerve of this world. It's almost as if reality doesn't vote along party lines.

Yes, yes, I know, four years from now, there's no way we're going to have an America left. It's going to be the Democratic People's Republic of Sitdownandshaddupistan, and if only the American people could see that. If only they could see what you see and think what you think and believe what you believe, we might have a shot. As it is, it's off to the orangey death camps for us.

The TLDR version? You know something? I'm actually starting to see the third-party voters' point.

Quote:
What do you want me to do? Congratulate you?
Actually . . . yes. That was a decent rant, if I do say so myself. And I should get bonus points for typing it on a Friday evening before I've even started drinking.
__________________
It's money or time, so make up your mind.
--Grandmaster Flash

Last edited by Linty Fresh; 05-22-2020 at 05:49 PM.
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