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  #151  
Old 05-22-2020, 05:58 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is offline
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Originally Posted by Linty Fresh View Post
Tell me how you plan to win this election with a candidate who said what he said to that radio host. Tell me how you plan to win this election with a guy with a reputation for being handsy in an era that simply doesn't accept that any more from anyone. Tell me that an old, out-of-touch, morally bankrupt boomer can beat an incumbent president who pretty much lives to fight
AFAIK, heís too old to be a boomer.
  #152  
Old 05-22-2020, 06:06 PM
Linty Fresh is offline
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
AFAIK, heís too old to be a boomer.
You know, I believe you're right.

Funny, isn't it? Nobody wants to hear how you would solve the problem until they fuck it up. No, you're in the way of progress, you just don't understand the situation, you're too naive, too privileged, too white, too old, too different. Stand aside and let the grown-ups handle it.

When it all goes to shit? THEN people want to ask you what you'd do. Suddenly, when you express dissatisfaction with the status quo, THEN people are interested in what you'd do differently. Right then. About a month after it's too late to do anything. THAT'S when it starts being your fault. But not theirs, right?
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Last edited by Linty Fresh; 05-22-2020 at 06:08 PM.
  #153  
Old 05-22-2020, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
That's not an example of institutional decay; it's a joke.

Joe Biden supported expanding healthcare to millions; Trump and McConnell have repeatedly tried to take it away.

Joe Biden has been on record as arguing in favor of protecting the institutions that uphold democracy - perhaps to a fault. Trump is trying to dismantle the checks on his power.
If Trump had said it, no one would say it was a joke. Enough for me, I'll be voting Libertarian again.
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  #154  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:05 PM
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If Trump had said it, no one would say it was a joke.
Because his Department of Justice is reviewing and enforcing the fewest civil rights cases in 2 decades. And maybe that's because he's part of a party that frequently engages in race baiting.
  #155  
Old 05-23-2020, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Linty Fresh View Post
You know, I believe you're right.

Funny, isn't it? Nobody wants to hear how you would solve the problem until they fuck it up. No, you're in the way of progress, you just don't understand the situation, you're too naive, too privileged, too white, too old, too different. Stand aside and let the grown-ups handle it.

When it all goes to shit? THEN people want to ask you what you'd do. Suddenly, when you express dissatisfaction with the status quo, THEN people are interested in what you'd do differently. Right then. About a month after it's too late to do anything. THAT'S when it starts being your fault. But not theirs, right?
I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
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  #156  
Old 05-23-2020, 03:43 AM
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Politics and economics are certainly about achieving better outcomes for human society, but don't think for a moment that doesn't involve morality on some level.
Apparently my point was unclear. Of course moral issues can be an important part of our goals for improving society. That has nothing to do with my point.

I object to viewing one's vote as an act in a "morality play" ó what's a better phrasing of my point? We have posters in this thread who write, in effect, "Of course the U.S. will follow a more moral course under Biden than under Trump, but Biden didn't EARN my vote, he doesn't DESERVE my vote."

Get it? They understand that we, as a nation, want Biden to win ó or at least the well-informed humanitarians among us do ó but won't vote for him anyway if he doesn't DESERVE their vote. I'm sure there's a better way to characterize their position than "acting as though they're a character in a morality play" ó what is the better way to express the idea?
  #157  
Old 05-23-2020, 05:10 AM
Linty Fresh is offline
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I object to viewing one's vote as an act in a "morality play" ó what's a better phrasing of my point? We have posters in this thread who write, in effect, "Of course the U.S. will follow a more moral course under Biden than under Trump, but Biden didn't EARN my vote, he doesn't DESERVE my vote."

Get it? They understand that we, as a nation, want Biden to win ó or at least the well-informed humanitarians among us do ó but won't vote for him anyway if he doesn't DESERVE their vote. I'm sure there's a better way to characterize their position than "acting as though they're a character in a morality play" ó what is the better way to express the idea?
Apologies for misunderstanding your post, but my point still stands.

You are complaining about getting wet when it rains. This is how elections have always worked, and it's part of the reason we have Trump in the White House to begin with. Do you honestly believe that a black voter who tuned into that show and heard Biden say that thought to himself, "Well . . . that was a racist and condescending thing to hear, especially from some old white guy, but for the good of the country, I will still cast my vote for him and then go out and hang some signs and man the phones for this idiot, because he's better than Trump." How many people do you think are going to say that? They might not vote for Trump, septimus, but they're certainly not going to fight for Biden. Hell, they might very well just stay home on election day, which is pretty much what happened not four years ago.

And I've got to say that I see the wisdom in it. Do you understand how a voter in a free society might resent your sense of entitlement? The hubris? The implication that Biden or any other Democrat shouldn't have to work for you to vote for him, and that the mere fact he's not the other guy compels you in some abstract way to vote for him? My question stands: If it were that easy, what would be the motivation to change the game plan at all, never mind improve the candidate?

I have NO obligation to vote for Biden. If I vote for Biden, it's because I want to, and that goes for every other voter in the nation. I'm not going to have to get absolved after this election if I vote third party. I don't share in some collective guilt. I didn't do anything wrong. At all. Your candidate sucked, and in this nation, suck candidates tend to lose. I didn't write that rule. But you know something? I'd vote for the guy who did.
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Last edited by Linty Fresh; 05-23-2020 at 05:11 AM.
  #158  
Old 05-23-2020, 07:09 AM
Unreconstructed Man is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I don't know, someone who, in our very first interaction, before I ever said anything at all to you, called me an "unrepentant cunt"
Actually, I called you a disingenuous cunt. Iíd forgotten about it, but I looked back over that thread and I stand by it as an accurate description of your behaviour at the time. If you donít like salty language, stay out of the Pit. You clearly bear a grudge, and you brought that into this thread a year later. Poor show.

Quote:
The fact that what Joe said wasn't racist, much less really fucking racist aside, it took me all of 15 seconds to find that quote from Trump.
And old white man says that black people who donít toe his line are race traitors. If you donít think thatís racist then... well, all I get from that is you don't understand what racism is.

Also, I donít believe for a moment youíd be taking this line if anyone with an R after their name, even a moderate like Mitt Romney, had said what Joe said.

And well done for finding that quote from Trump. Truly, your google skills are better than mine. That doesnít prove I was asking in bad faith.

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I thought that, given that you believed that Trump wouldn't have said anything racist against blacks...
I never said Trump wouldnít have said anything racist against blacks. I said that Iíd not heard Trump say anything so racist against blacks, and at the time I wrote that I hadnít. And I even qualified it by saying I genuinely didnít know. Now I know otherwise.

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...would have heard at lest some of the racist comments that he has made, and had some reason to defend them. You would not have been the first on this board to do exactly that.
Well, you were wrong about that.

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Tell you what, I'll answer what questions, and respond to what comments that interest me.
Okay, well Iíve blocked you now so you can answer whatever you like.
  #159  
Old 05-23-2020, 07:20 AM
Jonathan Chance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Actually, I called you a disingenuous cunt. Iíd forgotten about it, but I looked back over that thread and I stand by it as an accurate description of your behaviour at the time. If you donít like salty language, stay out of the Pit. You clearly bear a grudge, and you brought that into this thread a year later. Poor show.



And old white man says that black people who donít toe his line are race traitors. If you donít think thatís racist then... well, all I get from that is you don't understand what racism is.

Also, I donít believe for a moment youíd be taking this line if anyone with an R after their name, even a moderate like Mitt Romney, had said what Joe said.

And well done for finding that quote from Trump. Truly, your google skills are better than mine. That doesnít prove I was asking in bad faith.



I never said Trump wouldnít have said anything racist against blacks. I said that Iíd not heard Trump say anything so racist against blacks, and at the time I wrote that I hadnít. And I even qualified it by saying I genuinely didnít know. Now I know otherwise.



Well, you were wrong about that.



Okay, well Iíve blocked you now so you can answer whatever you like.
Thatíll earn you a warning. Both for insults and for telling someone theyíre blocked.

Never do it again.
  #160  
Old 05-23-2020, 07:51 AM
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I have NO obligation to vote for Biden. If I vote for Biden, it's because I want to, and that goes for every other voter in the nation. I'm not going to have to get absolved after this election if I vote third party. I don't share in some collective guilt. I didn't do anything wrong. At all. Your candidate sucked, and in this nation, suck candidates tend to lose. I didn't write that rule. But you know something? I'd vote for the guy who did.
You have no obligation to vote for Biden, but you have an obligation to be an informed and conscientious voter, and as one, you have an obligation to consider the political candidates (plural, not singular) who will effect the better policies of the two major parties.

As I've said before, when you vote for Biden or Trump, you're voting for the party and their policies, not just the individual. If we were voting for a king, who had broad unilateral authority, then you'd have a point about Biden. But a president has advisors and secretaries, and he hires a cabinet to run a multi-million employee and trillion dollar bureaucracy - he doesn't do it alone. At democracy's best, you're voting for the guy or gal who will effect the policies that you're more likely (though not guaranteed) to benefit from, but even when it's functioning less well, at minimum, you're voting for the person who will harm you the least. If you're really progressive, then I think you'd agree that Biden checks those boxes.

I understand the frustration, and you're not wrong for feeling that other voters have let you down in some sense. I feel that way myself a lot these days. But politics is about what's still possible. Democracies slide into the political abyss when ordinary people start psychologically checking out, which is what a lot of Trump's most fervent supporters really want. They want you to be angry -so angry at the system that you stop believing in the ability of the system to produce a fair or credible result.
  #161  
Old 05-23-2020, 08:24 AM
Manwich is offline
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So who are you all phone banking for?

I get international phone credit that I have no other use for so I've been calling up Americans talking about politics. It's interesting, people off-board have very different perspectives about whether to hitch their wagon to proven failure for poorer Americans Joe Biden. They seem embarrassed about Trump except for the day I called boat sales people. I did my best but from who I am speaking to, Biden isn't lighting many fires of passion for a fairer shake of the capitalist pepper grinder.
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