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Old 05-17-2020, 02:32 PM
Dale Sams is offline
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So I watched the first 15 minutes of The Rise of Skywalker....


....and I've come to the groundbreaking, never before seen hot take of:

People take Star Wars too seriously.

I know i know...thats terribly original.

But I don't mean just the fans, I mean EVERYONE. Directors, writers....everyone.

From the first 15 minutes (and maybe the rest of the movie) I would think that Star Wars is supposed to be an homage to serial sci-fi films but with a lot of graphic violence. And yeah...thats what Star Wars (ep 4) was.

So yes....Rise of Skywalker is stupid with Palpatine back, and wayfinders and mega-fleets with mega weapons.

But if Abrams intended RoS to be what the original film was, then hellll yeahhhhhh that works!! "The dead talk!!" "Kylo Ren is campy!" "The music is over the top!" "Palpatine is back!!

Am i wrong? If they made a Star Wars series cut into 15 minute serial films, I'd watch the hell out of that.


Edit: Unfortunatly the last two Skywalker films can't be looked at through this prism. The first one just doesn't have a consistent tone and Rian Johnsons film is too self-serious

Last edited by Dale Sams; 05-17-2020 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 05-17-2020, 03:15 PM
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Well, they were modelled on the Saturday afternoon matinee serial films of the 40’s and 50’s, so I can see where you’d make the connection. I agree that when people turned Star Wars from escapist cinema into a quasi-religion they sort of sucked the fun out of it. George Lucas is just as guilty as anyone else of doing that with the three prequels. But if you take them as escapist space drama, they’re all pretty fun. Oddly enough, the Rose of Skywalker is the one I remember the least of all of them.
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Old 05-17-2020, 03:48 PM
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Can somebody point out to me a dozen stupid contrivances in the original Star Wars?

It might be corny, it might be basic, it might be shallow, but at least it didn't rely on insulting contrivances to get its characters from A to B.

Show me in Star Wars the sort of contrivances we see in RoS and then I'll entertain the idea that RoS is what the original film was.
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Old 05-17-2020, 03:56 PM
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But that moron George Lucas was not involved!!! To be fair, I guess he only became a moron starting in 1999
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Old 05-17-2020, 04:01 PM
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To me, the real problem is that the last 3 didn't really have a plan. The first 3 were the story of Luke & Darth Vader, the second 3 (the prequels) were the story of how Darth Vader and the Empire came to be, and the latter 3 were what... how a junk planet kid became the last Jedi?

Even outside of the angry neckbeard nonsense, that's the fundamental problem. Everything in the third trilogy seemed very contrived- The Force Awakens was a rehash of Star Wars (A New Hope), but why? There are any number of ways they could have taken whatever happens after the Battle of Endor (what happened in Return of the Jedi), but for unfathomable reasons, they chose to just skip ahead 20 or so years, gin up another Empire out of nowhere (First Order), another Emperor (Snoke), another Death Star (Starkiller Base) and another Darth Vader (Kylo Ren). And another Luke (Rey), Han (Finn/Poe), another Yoda (Luke) and no Obi Wan character (maybe Leia, but not really). And just for grins, include all the oldsters they could (Luke, Leia, Han, Chewbacca, Wedge, Nien Nunb, Lando, etc...).

But outside of the rather self-contained first movie, there was no plan. So Rian Johnson's second movie and JJ Abrams third were not coupled so securely to the first one or each other as they should have been. There wasn't a coherent plot line, unlike the other two trilogies. What WAS Rey doing? What was the Resistance doing? What about the First Order? There wasn't a point that continued through all 3 movies, and that was the big problem. Was it the defeat of the First Order? Was it some sort of nonsense with Palpatine? If so, why wasn't there ANY foreshadowing in the first couple of movies? (answer: because they made that shit up out of whole cloth for the 3rd movie)

Each was fine in its own right as an individual movie, but as a trilogy, they sucked as there was no coherent trilogistic(?) plot or storytelling goal that made sense.
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Old 05-17-2020, 04:11 PM
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well, apparently the last 3 movies had nothing to do with what Lucas had planned for them to the point he's publicly said he should have gotten the agreement that Disney would use his last 3 scripts on paper as promised ......
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Old 05-17-2020, 04:55 PM
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well, apparently the last 3 movies had nothing to do with what Lucas had planned for them to the point he's publicly said he should have gotten the agreement that Disney would use his last 3 scripts on paper as promised ......
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Old 05-17-2020, 05:10 PM
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I'm not *quite* sure what you all mean by 'contrived'...but the old serial movies were very contrived.

"HOW will our heroes escape!! WILL the evil Mongo succeed???"

Flash got blown up good at the end of the last flick...and lo and behold in the next flick there was an escape pod that we definitely didn't see at the end of the last one.

Was A New Hope contrived? Well there's a bit of coincidence going on for sure, but that's the nature of film and certainly with shit like The Force and Destiny going on it can be excused. There's also an emotional disconnect going on cause the film has no time to explore things. The people who raised Luke get skelotenized, Alderaan gets blown up. The casualty rate at the battle of Yavin is 96%


At the end of the day, I'm just saying what little I saw of RoS works if I just pretend I'm watching a very graphic serial film.

But connected to the last gazillion years of Star Wars....yeah its dumb AF and shot its wad crazy early by showing us the Megafleet and Palpatine in the first 15 minutes.

Last edited by Dale Sams; 05-17-2020 at 05:10 PM.
  #9  
Old 05-17-2020, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
I'm not *quite* sure what you all mean by 'contrived'...
Our heroes are in the desert when they get caught in a patch of quicksand. Somehow in defiance of physics they sink through this quicksand into a cave. In this cave they find the body of the guy they were searching for. This guy has a dagger on him which they decide to take. The dead guy wasn't able to escape the cave but our heroes are ok because a big snake shows up, Mary Sue shows a never before seen healing power to heal the snake and it helpfully leaves a big exit for them. They take the dagger, follow some breadcrumbs and discover that actually it shows the location of the wayfinder they want.

It shows the location if you stand in a very specific spot on a planet, hold the dagger the right way up and point it at some wreckage that has been sitting in dangerously violent and powerful waves for quite a long time. How our hero knows where to stand is not mentioned.

Our hero from the desert planet sails out through the dangerous waves because her flying ship happened to crash and will take slightly too long to fix. She finds herself, has a fight and then flies away. The wayfinder she found never gets used.

A whole bunch of improbable and unnecessary contrivances and that is only scratching the surface.
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Old 05-17-2020, 05:42 PM
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My problem with the return of Palpatine in the Rise of Skywalker is that they just blew through the whole thing in one film. It should have been the focus of a whole trilogy.

If they had planned it better:

1. The first film: people become Palpatine is alive and launches an attack in which Han Solo is killed(since Ford wanted the character to die). Heroes search for Luke Skywalker to counter-act it.

2. The second film: Luke trains new heroes to confront Palpatine and Palpatine launches an pre-emptive attack on them in which Luke sacrifices himself so his students can live to fight another battle.

3. The third film: The new Jedi re-group and finally are able to get Palpatine into a confrontation in which he is defeated.

It's not that hard.

Last edited by dorvann; 05-17-2020 at 05:42 PM.
  #11  
Old 05-17-2020, 05:48 PM
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A whole bunch of improbable and unnecessary contrivances and that is only scratching the surface.
Anytime you see something like that, it is because a wizard The Force did it.
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Old 05-17-2020, 06:10 PM
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Anytime you see something like that, it is because a wizard The Force did it.
A crack squad of stormtroopers missing with every shot is the force. A shot hitting a small exhaust port is the force. The hero going somewhere because they got a gut feeling about it would be the force.

Fetch quests for macguffins that weren't even needed aren't the force, they are the writers.
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Old 05-17-2020, 06:25 PM
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A crack squad of stormtroopers missing with every shot is the force. A shot hitting a small exhaust port is the force. The hero going somewhere because they got a gut feeling about it would be the force.
The Force.
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Old 05-18-2020, 03:51 PM
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The consensus here, which I completely agree with, is that as individual movies they were entertaining watchable space fantasy flicks with Star Wars theming/characters that did what Disney wanted them to do, make money.
And what they were not was a planned trilogy with a complete story arc complete with cliffhangers, mysteries, developments, and resolutions. A three part story. Pretty much the definition of what a proper trilogy should be.
And how/why that was let to happen is truly mind boggling. 30 years since the Return of the Jedi to come up with a “what happens next” 3 movie story for the largest franchise ever, with a completely empty slate, freedom to take it anywhere, and this is what they come up with? It’s not like they tried and failed. They didn’t even try. Seriously, what was the point?
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Old 05-18-2020, 04:37 PM
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From what I understand, it's not just that there wasn't a planned trilogy--the same can be said of the original movie. It's that the second one was going one direction, and then the third one came back and went a different way. The big example given is how it was a big reveal that there was no special familial connection for Rey, to have that undone in the next part.

Last edited by BigT; 05-18-2020 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 05-18-2020, 05:03 PM
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To make it worse, the company in charge of all of this had examples sitting right in front of them of how to do it right. The Marvel movies have been so successful, in large part, because they do have a plan spanning multiple movies (even if some of those movies look at very different aspects of their shared universe), and directors are given freedom to make their own movies within the constraints of the overall series.
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Old 05-18-2020, 06:21 PM
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To make it worse, the company in charge of all of this had examples sitting right in front of them of how to do it right. The Marvel movies have been so successful, in large part, because they do have a plan spanning multiple movies (even if some of those movies look at very different aspects of their shared universe), and directors are given freedom to make their own movies within the constraints of the overall series.
New Line made the Lord of the Rings for a lot less money by filming them all at the same time. It provided consistency as well.

The new trilogy of Star Wars should have been written by Lawrence Kasden, directed by JJ Abrams, and filmed in one very large block of 400 days or so. You do post-production on the first movie while wrapping up the others(pick up shooting) and you work on the edit and release of each movie in order of release.

How they did not do this is beyond me.
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Old 05-18-2020, 08:26 PM
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From what I understand, it's not just that there wasn't a planned trilogy--the same can be said of the original movie. It's that the second one was going one direction, and then the third one came back and went a different way. The big example given is how it was a big reveal that there was no special familial connection for Rey, to have that undone in the next part.
It’s even worse than that; the movies actively contract one another thematically despite the fact that they map pretty closely to the original trilogy in their actual structure and story beats. The Force Awakens was essentially all a lead up to the unforgivable betrayal by Kylo Ren, while Rey followed the map that Luke Skywalker left behind in fragments to seek a mentor. The Last Jedi opens with Luke violently rejecting his role as a mentor (if he wanted to be left alone, why leave a map) and Rey ultimately seeking to redeem Ren. And the last film...was basically trying to jam a trilogy worth of story development into one film because there was no chance of making any sense of the previous two movies.

In the original trilogy there were obvious right turns that the writers didn’t really think about before hand, but there was challenge and failure, character development and change, and when you suddenly got a plot twist like Vader being Luke’s father, Leia falling in love with Han, or Lando betraying his friend and then changing his mind, it wasn’t planned out with foreshadowing in the previous movie but it felt like a plausible consequence. (Leia being Luke’s brother was much more of a contrivance that made it feel like a much smaller world but whatever.) And while it is a testament to the writers to recognize those organic turns in the character arcs, it also didn’t feel like the characters were just jumping from scene to scene with random motivations that did nothing but serve the plot. Even the more mature Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi is still impetuous and arrogant, and it is in that part of his character that he seeks to rescue Vader from the Dark Side.

There is none of this in the sequel trilogy. Shit just happens because it is time for something to blow up, characters are introduced, spout some random dialogue, and then disappear ignominiously if they receive any recognition at all, and the main characters just do whatever is required for the plot even if it makes no sense whatsoever and completely contradicts their previous motivations and beliefs.

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The new trilogy of Star Wars should have been written by Lawrence Kasden, directed by JJ Abrams, and filmed in one very large block of 400 days or so.
It is very popular to put the blame on the failure of the sequel trilogy on Rian Johnson, or Kathleen Kennedy, or “Disney” as a whole, all of whom are probably due their share of criticism, but let’s be frank; these movies are exactly the kind of meandering, thematically-void, fan-pandering, appeal-to-nostalgia-for-its-own-sake crapotainment that J.J. Abrams has been sluicing out of his “reimagining” creative juicer machine since the beginning of his directorial/production career. Lacking any original creative talent of his own, he looks at the works of other, better directors and tries to emulate it, which wouldn’t be bad if he actually understood what makes films like ET, or Raiders of the Lost Ark or Star Wars work, but he doesn’t. What he does is like finger-painting with fine oils. The Force Awakens at least had the advantage of looking sounding like an actual Star Wars movie instead of whatever random CGI backdrop George Lucas could come up with for the prequels but literally all it did was mine the original trilogy for action sequences and cameos with some new merchandizing and a couple of JJ’s famous “mystery boxes” thrown in because who doesn’t like a plot hook that has no resolution?

Lawrence Kasdan was once a talented writer/director for whom The Empire Strikes Back was first in a long line of acclaimed screenplays and critically liked films across genres, but he was also primarily responsible for The Force Awakens and the pointless cash grab that was Solo: A Star Wars Story, so it is pretty clear that he gave up on doing anything original in the mid-‘Ninties. If he couldn’t score a decent screenplay between those two movies (although Solo was such an obviously play at nostalgia padded out by backfilling with every minor detail about the life of Han Solo prior to hanging out in a low rent bar on a backwater desert planet) then he certainly wasn’t up to scripting an entire trilogy that wasn’t just giving Disney and the producers exactly what their money-printing hearts desired whether it was creatively bankrupt or not.

It isn’t as if this is the only franchise that has ever crashed and burned; the James Bond movies are essentially a periodic function of rebirth, ascendence, decline, and then hard crash (I can’t wait for No Time To Die just because I guarantee that every other movie critic is going to make the same ironically pithy comment about how it is time for Bond films to die), and Disney isn’t going to keep making Star Wars films and shows because they’re not just going to wipe their ass with the $4B receipt from buying Lucasfilm, but let’s not pretend that schlockmeister J.J. Abrams, who produced and was ‘creatively’ involved in the entire trilogy, would have done a better job “if just”.

Stranger

Last edited by Stranger On A Train; 05-18-2020 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 05-19-2020, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dorvann View Post
My problem with the return of Palpatine in the Rise of Skywalker is that they just blew through the whole thing in one film. It should have been the focus of a whole trilogy.

If they had planned it better:

1. The first film: people become Palpatine is alive and launches an attack in which Han Solo is killed(since Ford wanted the character to die). Heroes search for Luke Skywalker to counter-act it.

2. The second film: Luke trains new heroes to confront Palpatine and Palpatine launches an pre-emptive attack on them in which Luke sacrifices himself so his students can live to fight another battle.

3. The third film: The new Jedi re-group and finally are able to get Palpatine into a confrontation in which he is defeated.

It's not that hard.

Yep that is much better than what we got. That would be a worthy new trilogy. I did enjoy The Force Awakens for what it was, a remake of episode 4. And Rise of the Skywalker had decent action, like a Fast and Furious movie in space. But The Last Jedi was an unfortunate speed bump in the middle, and Rise of Skywalker spent too much time trying to fix it.

Last edited by control-z; 05-19-2020 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 05-20-2020, 10:46 AM
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well, apparently the last 3 movies had nothing to do with what Lucas had planned for them to the point he's publicly said he should have gotten the agreement that Disney would use his last 3 scripts on paper as promised ......
Well, for $7 billion, I think he got a hell of a deal. With that sort of stipulation, he would have gotten much less.
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