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Old 05-18-2020, 02:06 PM
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We need pro-lockdown protests to drown out the anti-lockdown protests


Right now, the anti-lockdown folks are completely dominating the protest narrative: All the media focus is on them protesting against lockdowns.

Meanwhile, the pro-lockdown crowd, despite being the statistical Silent Majority (68 percent fear reopening too soon), is dangerously quiet. If the pro-reopening crowd hogs all the headlines while the anti-reopening crowd stays silent, then politicians will feel more pressured to reopen than not, and the virus will come back with a vengeance.

Sure, this is the fault of the media for deliberately giving air and oxygen to the most dangerous/unreasonable of folks (as the media is wont to do,) but the pro-lockdown crowd ought to be felt and heard twice as much as the pro-reopening faction, due to outnumbering 2-to-1/
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Old 05-18-2020, 02:07 PM
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We'd have to hold the pro-lockdown protest over Zoom.
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Old 05-18-2020, 02:41 PM
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Health care workers have been holding counter-protests. Here are some holding up protester traffic in Denver.
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Old 05-18-2020, 03:10 PM
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So you're saying we need to get a large group of people together to show that we don't want large groups of people to gather? I think I see a flaw in your plan.
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Old 05-18-2020, 07:52 PM
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Health care workers have been holding counter-protests. Here are some holding up protester traffic in Denver.
I love how calm the HCWers are. Like, bitch, I get diseased pink lattes spewed on me on the daily. You think you scare me?
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Old 05-18-2020, 07:54 PM
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If anybody wants to take one for the team, they could move through the "FREEDOM!" crowd giving them big, sloppy kisses. Hell, if I were positive and ambulatory, I'd be tempted.
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Old 05-18-2020, 08:02 PM
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So you're saying we need to get a large group of people together to show that we don't want large groups of people to gather? I think I see a flaw in your plan.
This reminds me of Mitch Hedberg's joke: "I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it."
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Old 05-18-2020, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Meanwhile, the pro-lockdown crowd, despite being the statistical Silent Majority (68 percent fear reopening too soon), is dangerously quiet. If the pro-reopening crowd hogs all the headlines while the anti-reopening crowd stays silent, then politicians will feel more pressured to reopen than not, and the virus will come back with a vengeance.
I think this is the part that needs the closest scrutiny.

If it is true that more than 2/3 of the country fears re-opening too soon yet the narrative in the media is that we must re-open ask yourself why that is.

Are 2/3 of Americans just really quiet and mousy and not willing to speak up and, also, all of the 2/3 of quiet people are on one side in this?

Or, have you considered who runs most of the media in this country and the zeal with which moneyed interests want to get back to making money?

Occam's Razor.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 05-18-2020 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:48 AM
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If it is true that more than 2/3 of the country fears re-opening too soon yet the narrative in the media is that we must re-open ask yourself why that is.
Is that the narrative "in the media" though? The OP that you quotes says the protesters are dominating the headlines. That is not the same as the media presenting a "we must open" narrative.

Of course some media is on that bandwaggon, and we can easily guess which, but the OPs (fatally flawed) suggestion is meant to change the tone of "neutral reporting", which it could, if it wasn't for the difficulty in making a zoom parade as impactful as armed protestors in state capitols.
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Old 05-19-2020, 11:48 AM
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Man if the protesters were all way spaced out wearing masks I would be way less apprehensive about reopening. It’s the fact that they are all breathing all over everyone screaming and stuff without a mask spreading germs...
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Old 05-19-2020, 11:57 AM
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If anybody wants to take one for the team, they could move through the "FREEDOM!" crowd giving them big, sloppy kisses. Hell, if I were positive and ambulatory, I'd be tempted.
Obviously I realize you're joking, but just to emphasize that we should not enable any kind of narrative that it's just a "personal decision", the idea that people who want to maintain the lockdown should stay home if wish, while others should be free to do as they choose since they are only putting themselves at risk.

It's critically important that higher transmission puts everyone at risk, that a specific young and healthy person that you might infect probably won't come to great harm themselves, but that it increases the probability that any older or more vulnerable's person's life is at lost.

Last edited by Riemann; 05-19-2020 at 11:59 AM.
  #12  
Old 05-19-2020, 02:17 PM
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Politics and Covid-19


Someone should start a "Politics and Covid-19" thread. For now I'll just piggy-back onto this thread.

Trump and the GOP are painting a false narrative: that the shutdown is supported by elites happy to work from home, while blue-collar workers unable to work from home have been laid off and are angry.

This is Fake News. A recent Washington Post/Ipsos survey shows that "the U.S. should keep trying to slow the spread of the coronavirus, even if that means keeping many businesses closed" actually gets MORE agreement from respondents who'd been laid off or furloughed than from the general population!

Instead the reality is often the OPPOSITE of the GOP Fake version. It is big businesses -- big GOP donors -- who want to force workers back to the factories. Many of these workers are terrified of catching Covid-19 at such a factory but have to comply or they will lose unemployment benefits.

The NY Times has an opinion piece titled "The Phony Coronavirus Class War" and subtitled "Defiance of public health directives has become a mark of right-wing identity."

Quote:
Lately some commentators have suggested that the coronavirus lockdowns pit an affluent professional class comfortable staying home indefinitely against a working class more willing to take risks to do their jobs. [Pundits describe a conflict] with pro-lockdown experts on one side and those who work with their hands on the other. On Fox News, Steve Hilton decried a "37 percent work from home elite" punishing "real people" trying to earn a living. [And WSJ's Peggy Noonan echoed this message.]

Donald Trump and his allies have polarized the response to the coronavirus, turning defiance of public health directives into a mark of right-wing identity. Because a significant chunk of Trump's base is made up of whites without a college degree, there are naturally many such people among the lockdown protesters.

... [But] a waitress in Odessa, Texas spoke of her fear when she was called back to work at a restaurant that hadn't put adequate social distancing measures in place. "It scared me, so I left," she said. "Then I had to remember that if I do quit, I would have to lose my unemployment."

Meatpacking workers have been sickened with coronavirus at wildly disproportionate rates, and all over the country there have been protests outside of meatpacking plants demanding that they be temporarily closed, sometimes by the workers' own children. Perhaps because those demonstrators have been unarmed, they've received far less coverage than those opposed to lockdown orders.

Indeed, across America there's been a surge in labor activism as people made to work in unsafe conditions stage strikes, walkouts and sickouts. "It sounds corny, but we're moving towards a worker rebellion," Ron Herrera, president of the Los Angeles County Federation of Labor, told The Los Angeles Times.

Meanwhile, financial elites are eager for everyone else to resume powering the economy. "People Will Die. People Do Die. Wall Street Has Had Enough of the Lockdown," was the headline on a recent Vanity Fair article. It cited a banker calling for "broad legal indemnification for employers against claims related to the virus" so that employees can't sue if their workplace exposes them to illness. Here we see the real coronavirus class divide.

... when it comes to the coronavirus, willingness to ignore public health authorities isn't a sign of flinty working-class realism. Often it's the ultimate mark of privilege.
In the same newspaper, we read about unequal police response to violations of distancing and mask orders. Click here for a Youtube of NYPD arresting a black woman with a small baby. Both woman and baby were wearing masks but officers felt woman's mask was adjusted improperly.

Quote:
Of the 125 people arrested over offenses that law enforcement officials described as related to the coronavirus pandemic, 113 were black or Hispanic....

In [a video] posted to Facebook last week, a group of some six police officers are seen tackling a black woman in a subway station as her young child looks on. "She's got a baby with her!" a bystander shouts. Police officials told The Daily News the woman had refused to comply when officers directed her to put the mask she was wearing over her nose and mouth.

Contrast that with photographs across social media showing crowds of sun-seekers packed into parks in wealthy, whiter areas of the city, lounging undisturbed as police officers hand out masks.
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Old 05-19-2020, 04:18 PM
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When did the party that was saving us from Obama care because "death panels" become the party of "Mom and Dad have had a rich, full life, and isn't it time we learned to let go?" I must have missed the memo. Expecting consistency out of the modern Republican party is a thankless task, but the pivot was Orwellian in its speed.

The thought process is literally;"What we are doing is working, so let's stop doing it." How like Americans to bail on a winning strategy because of a little boredom. We're willing to make the big sacrifices, watch us send our sons and daughters to die in foreign wars at the drop of a flag, but keep your hands off my Denny's Grand Slam Breakfast.

The number of American dead in this is as if the 9-11 attacks occurred every day for a month, and the people in charge keep bearing down on the accelerator. They're like the elderly drivers who mistake the gas for the brake.
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Old 05-19-2020, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
I think this is the part that needs the closest scrutiny.

If it is true that more than 2/3 of the country fears re-opening too soon yet the narrative in the media is that we must re-open ask yourself why that is.

Are 2/3 of Americans just really quiet and mousy and not willing to speak up and, also, all of the 2/3 of quiet people are on one side in this?

Or, have you considered who runs most of the media in this country and the zeal with which moneyed interests want to get back to making money?

Occam's Razor.
Occam's Razor. Absolutely. Is it easier to believe a conspiracy between media giants to promote the "Back to Normal" agenda, or that the news media will show what is more sensational? "Millions prefer staying safe at home" is a much less interesting headline than "Dozens march on statehouse". "the media" is not left-biased, it is not right-biased, it is sensational-biased.
  #15  
Old 05-19-2020, 04:33 PM
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The pro-lockdown crowd are, um, locked down.

What does need to happen is lock up any armed anti-lockdown protester.
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Old 05-19-2020, 04:34 PM
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Duplicate. Stupid Board server.
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Last edited by Siam Sam; 05-19-2020 at 04:35 PM.
  #17  
Old 05-19-2020, 06:08 PM
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Someone should start a "Politics and Covid-19" thread. For now I'll just piggy-back onto this thread.

Trump and the GOP are painting a false narrative: that the shutdown is supported by elites happy to work from home, while blue-collar workers unable to work from home have been laid off and are angry.

This is Fake News. A recent Washington Post/Ipsos survey shows that "the U.S. should keep trying to slow the spread of the coronavirus, even if that means keeping many businesses closed" actually gets MORE agreement from respondents who'd been laid off or furloughed than from the general population!
Of course. if you are getting paid more on unemployment than you would by working, who wouldn't want to stay home?
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Old 05-19-2020, 06:14 PM
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Of course. if you are getting paid more on unemployment than you would by working, who wouldn't want to stay home?
That says more about the shitty jobs than about the unemployment. Why can someone make more on unemployment than by working full time? Good time to revisit that $15.00 an hour minimum wage.
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Old 05-19-2020, 06:21 PM
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That says more about the shitty jobs than about the unemployment. Why can someone make more on unemployment than by working full time? Good time to revisit that $15.00 an hour minimum wage.
Why would anyone work for $15/hr when you get $26-$30 on unemployment now through July 31 (extended to January 31 under the Dem proposal)? Makes Bernie look like an amatuer on the way to pure socialism.
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Old 05-19-2020, 06:28 PM
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Why would anyone work for $15/hr when you get $26-$30 on unemployment now through July 31 (extended to January 31 under the Dem proposal)? Makes Bernie look like an amatuer on the way to pure socialism.
Unemployment pays $30 and hour? Prove it.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:15 AM
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Unemployment pays $30 and hour? Prove it.
Maybe he's conflating the $1200 stimulus checks with part of "unemployment" despite that those checks go to all Americans, working or not.

What's interesting is that UltraVires focused on an arithmetic detail, right or wrong, and overlooks the key point of the NY Times article:
The Phony Coronavirus Class War
Defiance of public health directives has become a mark of right-wing identity.
Were the complaint about unemployment payments, whether arithmetically sound or not, to come from a Trump supporter, it would be at odds with the GOP's public propaganda.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:38 AM
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Let's take California. I am a good Bernie supporter, so I pay my employees a starting wage of $16.63/hr. The Covid-19 crisis hits and I am forced to lay them off.

https://edd.ca.gov/Disability/Calcul...nt_Amounts.htm

They have made $8650 in the last quarter so according to this chart, https://edd.ca.gov/pdf_pub_ctr/de2589.pdf, they get $400 per week unemployment PLUS the temporary $600 per week stipend from the feds.

They are now getting paid $1,000/wk for doing nothing, or $25/hr assuming a 40 hour work week. They have gotten a substantial raise from being laid off or furloughed so the statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Septimus
A recent Washington Post/Ipsos survey shows that "the U.S. should keep trying to slow the spread of the coronavirus, even if that means keeping many businesses closed" actually gets MORE agreement from respondents who'd been laid off or furloughed than from the general population!
is hardly surprising.
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Old 05-20-2020, 03:17 AM
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Of course. if you are getting paid more on unemployment than you would by working, who wouldn't want to stay home?
That's sort of the point. To incentivize people not to work so they don't spread the virus.


I do find it interesting how, once again, the Republican party has managed to spin the narrative to draw all "moronic assholes" to their cause. "Moronic" because they once again appeal to those who wish to disregard science and educated medical opinion. And "assholes" because they appeal to those who are largely in a position where they don't actually have to take risks themselves and can afford to not give a shit - business owners, people with more affluent jobs who can work from home and are mostly inconvenienced by having their kids home from school.

I wouldn't be surprised if Trump was reelected in November. By the time the elections roll around, conservatives will have had six months to spin the narrative that Democrats overreacted to the virus, caused the economy to tank, and are keeping it depressed by preventing people from going back to work. And conservatives will believe it, because they are stupid and they refuse to hold their leadership accountable for actual results.
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Old 05-20-2020, 03:46 AM
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That's sort of the point. To incentivize people not to work so they don't spread the virus.
Two things:

1) That statement was made to blunt the implied premise of Septimus' argument that unemployed people still wanted the economy shut down even if it meant personal sacrifice to them. The facts show that these unemployed people are not making any sacrifice, that they are being pay well in excess of their salary to stay home. So, no shit, they are happy with that.

2) It cannot possibly be the purpose of increased unemployment compensation to "incentivize people not to work so they don't spread the virus." If that was the case, why do you put these payments in a system where a person must work if offered a job or else he loses the benefits? That doesn't seem like much of an incentive not to work if you must when your old job comes calling.

Further it acts as a sledgehammer instead of a fly-swatter in that for however it would incentivize non-work it does so across the board whether it is a necessary job like in a meat packing plant or a non-essential job like a tattoo artist. We WANT people to keep working in grocery stores, meat packing plants, hospitals, gas stations, etc. It makes no sense to have a policy to incentivize non-work in these necessary industries.

This Dem plan would extend the incentive not to work until next January 31. You cannot sustain an economy if you don't want people to work for almost a year. That has never been the stated goal of anyone.
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Old 05-20-2020, 03:58 AM
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To follow up, this is very shrewd strategy by the Democrats. Matt Drudge has a headline on his website that says "Shock Poll: 82% Want Monthly Stimulus Checks"

You don't say.

When there is free shit being handed out, I want that too. If the state legislature proposes a "Let's give Ultravires $1 million" bill, then count me as its #1 supporter. I have abandoned conservatism you say? Guilty as charged. More than conservatism, I support me-a-tism.

So the Dems proposed this knowing that it was irresponsible and that the GOP would never go for it, but look at the line that has been teed up for Biden this fall: "The Republicans are okay with spending money for wars and for tax cuts for billionaires, but when it came to giving you, hardworking American out there, a measly $2,000 per month, they said no even though they were able to work from their homes and corporate boardrooms through Zoom conferences and the like. To the waitresses and the coal miners and the bartenders and those of you who work with your hands and cannot do your job on the internet, they said they didn't care about you."

Very shrewd.
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Old 05-20-2020, 04:09 AM
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Two things:
1) That statement was made to blunt the implied premise of Septimus' argument that unemployed people still wanted the economy shut down even if it meant personal sacrifice to them. The facts show that these unemployed people are not making any sacrifice, that they are being pay well in excess of their salary to stay home. So, no shit, they are happy with that.
I presume that the implication is that they would rather take a pay cut if they had to instead of risking infection. If temporarily paying people a bit more so they don't have to do the calculus of work vs health, I'm ok with that (in the short term).


Also, it is incorrect to say that unemployed people are "not making any sacrifice" simply because they are being compensated while not working. Some people actually like their jobs. Even people for who $600 a week on top of max unemployment is a pay increase.

Last edited by Jonathan Chance; 05-20-2020 at 06:27 AM. Reason: Fixed coding error.
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Old 05-20-2020, 04:49 AM
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You seem to have goobered up the quote function and put your own comments under a heading that says I said it. It is clear it was unintentional, but I did report it so maybe the mods can fix it.

To your first point, sure you are happy with that tradeoff, until maybe there is no food on the shelves and you are eating squirrels from your backyard. The economy, even the stripped down version needs workers and it is silly in the extreme to incentivize people not to work in needed industries.

Your second point is just beyond belief. Someone getting paid $16.60 to work versus $25 to stay at home is making a sacrifice? That is stunning. That person must have one hell of a sense of job satisfaction that he would want to take about $18k to $19k out of his pocket for that year, not counting clothing, eating out, and commute costs.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:35 PM
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You don't need to protest in the streets to let government know your position.

Write letters to the editor. Call your elected representatives. Go to virtual townhall meetings that many cities are having and state your position.
  #29  
Old 05-23-2020, 11:21 AM
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I've said that NO business should reopen until the CEO is willing to come down and shake hands with every employee as they walk in the door.
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Old 05-23-2020, 01:02 PM
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I think septimus touched on it, but a lot of the energy in these protests is coming from well-organized political groups. It's part protest and part Trump rally. They're protesting so that they can be visible. It's right wing political mobilization intended to take advantage of the absence of mobilized opposition.
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Old 05-23-2020, 03:09 PM
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I've said that NO business should reopen until the CEO is willing to come down and shake hands with every employee as they walk in the door.
Damnit, I thought we'd all settled on no more handshaking.

Besides, why would you want to do this to the poor employees?
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