Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 05-20-2020, 05:24 PM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 60,108
When Trump dies, all flagpoles should be extended 50%.
__________________
Don't worry about the end of Inception. We have top men working on it right now. Top. Men.
I was once trolled by smoke signal. He said the holocough wasn't real.
  #52  
Old 05-20-2020, 06:21 PM
bengangmo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 9,825
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyGuy View Post
These two contradictory sentences nicely present the problem.

If Joe Biden wins, his administration is going to be under pressure to have Trump arrested. As much as it would be deserved, I think it would be a polarizing mistake.
It seems that this is going to be one of the most difficult issues post Trump,
Much of what he's doing looks to be illegal and damaging to democracy - but what if there are no consequences to it?

At some point, don't we have to say that this is NOT acceptable?

Trump is already threatening what looks to be one of the cleanest administrations in recent memory with prosecution, so I do see the danger in investigations of Trump post presidency...
  #53  
Old 05-20-2020, 06:44 PM
Ukulele Ike is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 18,777
We made that mistake 12 years ago with Obama and “Let’s move on” and no investigations/prosecutions of the criminal morons of the Dubya administration. I for one would be happier with the image of Cheney and Rumsfeld breaking rocks in some hellish southern penitentiary than picturing them living the fat life on their blood money. Let’s not make that mistake again.
__________________
Uke
  #54  
Old 05-20-2020, 07:02 PM
PhillyGuy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pennsylvania U.S.A.
Posts: 1,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike View Post
I for one would be happier with the image of Cheney and Rumsfeld breaking rocks in some hellish southern penitentiary . . .
I myself would be happy to live in a country with neither political prisoners nor hellish penitentiaries.

If what you fantasize had come to pass, I canít see myself having changed my registration from Republican to Democratic in 2016.

As for the political prisoners, Trump would have freed them years ago.

Now, drawing the line between political prisoners and ordinary criminals, who happen to be politicians, can be hard. But the way you do it is to err on the side of not prosecuting.
  #55  
Old 05-20-2020, 07:14 PM
The Tooth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 4,987
No, the way you do it is you prosecute and give the war criminals you supported until 2016 a chance to defend themselves.
  #56  
Old 05-20-2020, 07:19 PM
bengangmo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 9,825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike View Post
We made that mistake 12 years ago with Obama and ďLetís move onĒ and no investigations/prosecutions of the criminal morons of the Dubya administration. I for one would be happier with the image of Cheney and Rumsfeld breaking rocks in some hellish southern penitentiary than picturing them living the fat life on their blood money. Letís not make that mistake again.
Serious question -
If we HAD seen that happen, would it have made it easier for Trump to today be "prosecuting" Obama? Would we now be seeing people from the Obama administration under facing actual charges?

I think politicians need to be held to account for blatant factual lies - just not sure how to do it given the general cluelessness of the electorate
  #57  
Old 05-20-2020, 08:07 PM
PhillyGuy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pennsylvania U.S.A.
Posts: 1,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tooth View Post
No, the way you do it is you prosecute and give the war criminals you supported until 2016 a chance to defend themselves.
Alleged war criminals.

I think they had ample opportunity to defend themselves at news conferences while in office.

I have at least two contradictory ideas in my mind here.

One is that, in 2019 federal prosecutions, fewer than 1% went to trial and won their cases. This shows how hard it is to beat a federal charge, even without the massive prejudicial pretrial publicity that Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney would have faced. So there is a good chance they could have gone to prison until freed by Donald Trump.

On the other hand, the case you propose seems to have little jury appeal.

The prospect of living in a country where losing an election results in prosecution has little appeal to me. Whether it would make life better in Afghanistan is admittedly an open question. I think no.

As far the idea of living in a country where one party, the Democrats, locks up those they defeated, while the Republicans don't do it -- that sounds highly unlikely. But, if it does happen, I may change back to being a Republican.
  #58  
Old 05-20-2020, 08:11 PM
Chisquirrel is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyGuy View Post
Now, drawing the line between political prisoners and ordinary criminals, who happen to be politicians, can be hard. But the way you do it is to err on the side of not prosecuting.
"Let criminals go free if they ever held political office, either elected or appointed, because maybe someone somewhere thinks their prosecution might be politically motivated."


I'm gonna go with, "Nah."
  #59  
Old 05-20-2020, 08:16 PM
Chisquirrel is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyGuy View Post
One is that, in 2019 federal prosecutions, fewer than 1% went to trial and won their cases. This shows how hard it is to beat a federal charge, even without the massive prejudicial pretrial publicity that Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney would have faced. So there is a good chance they could have gone to prison until freed by Donald Trump.
That would totally make sense if the people charged with federal crimes was random. Instead, you might look at the data as "98% of people charged with federal crimes DID it." Are you arguing that federal prosecutors (and grand juries) are just flipping coins to see if someone's charged with a crime? Hell, according to your cite, almost half of states have similar trial rates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pew Research
ďIf anything,Ē a 2017 law journal article said, ďthere is even less likelihood of a case proceeding to trial in state court than in federal court.Ē
  #60  
Old 05-20-2020, 09:10 PM
PhillyGuy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pennsylvania U.S.A.
Posts: 1,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
Are you arguing that federal prosecutors (and grand juries) are just flipping coins to see if someone's charged with a crime?
No. I have every suspicion that indicted people have a higher incidence of actual criminality than the general population. I also have a strong suspicion that those convicted are more likely to be actual criminals than the acquitted.

However, there is a human tendency to, without significant additional evidence, jump from thinking something is probable to thinking it is certain. Prosecutors, judges, and juries are not exempt from this.

Another factor is the Three Felonies a Day problem. There are so many laws, and so many opportunities for a high administration appointee to break them, that every incoming administration can potentially lock up the one before.
  #61  
Old 05-20-2020, 10:48 PM
Chisquirrel is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyGuy View Post
Another factor is the Three Felonies a Day problem. There are so many laws, and so many opportunities for a high administration appointee to break them, that every incoming administration can potentially lock up the one before.
And so, instead of holding criminals responsible for their crimes, they should be excused.

I'm still going with, "Nah."
  #62  
Old 05-21-2020, 12:03 AM
Superdude's Avatar
Superdude is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Fortress of Solidude
Posts: 11,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuck20 View Post
This makes me wonder whether Biden, if he were elected, would invite Trump for an unveiling ceremony.

And speaking of which, just what would Trump's portrait look like? Would it depict him sitting on a throne or wearing an ermine robe?

Or would he go for something like this:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...icture-twitter
I think we all know what his portrait would be:

https://images.app.goo.gl/Pm9F3Ad3oujK2LQEA
__________________
It's chaos. Be kind.
  #63  
Old 05-21-2020, 01:23 AM
penultima thule is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
At some point, don't we have to say that this is NOT acceptable?
Yes, itís called an election.

Myself thought it was bleedingly obvious in 2016 but next available opportunity would do in a pinch.
  #64  
Old 05-21-2020, 08:23 AM
The Tooth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 4,987
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyGuy View Post
Alleged war criminals.
I didn't support them so I don't have to pretend. War criminals.

Quote:
I think they had ample opportunity to defend themselves at news conferences while in office.
And Republicans would never lie. Too moral, too upright.


Quote:
...so there is a good chance they could have gone to prison until freed by Donald Trump.
You just argued that they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions because they...might be held accountable for actions.

Quote:
On the other hand, the case you propose seems to have little jury appeal.
Unimportant.

Quote:
The prospect of living in a country where losing an election results in prosecution has little appeal to me.
First, I don't care what has little appeal to you. It's not about you. You do not matter. Second, it's not losing elections that should result in prosecution, it's committing crimes. I don't even understand why you jumped from "prosecuting war crimes" to "prosecuting political opposition". Is this projection on your part?

Quote:
Whether it would make life better in Afghanistan is admittedly an open question. I think no.
I think yes. Or maybe I think maybe. Or maybe I think that's not relevant.

Quote:
As far the idea of living in a country where one party, the Democrats, locks up those they defeated, while the Republicans don't do it -- that sounds highly unlikely. But, if it does happen, I may change back to being a Republican.
Okay.
  #65  
Old 05-21-2020, 09:48 AM
Buck Godot's Avatar
Buck Godot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: MD outside DC
Posts: 6,506
nm (wrong thread)

Last edited by Buck Godot; 05-21-2020 at 09:48 AM.
  #66  
Old 05-21-2020, 02:09 PM
TimfromNapa is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobot View Post
"Obama would also not be interested in attending such an event, according to the report, which cited people familiar with the matter." ...because Trump is an unprecedented piece of shit. This situation has arisen with no other so-called President than Trump, because Trump is a piece of shit.
Trump is not a piece of shit. He is an entire shit. He is the grand daddy of all shit.
  #67  
Old 05-21-2020, 06:44 PM
Siam Sam is offline
Elephant Whisperer
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Posts: 42,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyGuy View Post
I myself would be happy to live in a country with neither political prisoners nor hellish penitentiaries.

If what you fantasize had come to pass, I canít see myself having changed my registration from Republican to Democratic in 2016.
No one said anything about political prisoners. They're talking about criminals convicted of crimes in a court of law serving their time.
__________________
"Hell is other people." -- Jean-Paul Sartre
  #68  
Old 05-21-2020, 06:58 PM
PhillyGuy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pennsylvania U.S.A.
Posts: 1,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siam Sam View Post
They're talking about criminals convicted of crimes in a court of law serving their time.
I made a mistake in bringing this up. If locking up Trump becomes a big internet theme, Trump will get hundreds of thousands of votes from people who donít like Donald but donít want him jailed.

I am nostalgic for no drama Obama.
  #69  
Old 05-21-2020, 07:02 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 13,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Winston OBoogie View Post
I have great respect for the office of the President of the United States. There are a lot of Trumpanistas that think he is mistreated and that the office should be respected. However, this whole episode shows that HE DOESN'T EVEN RESPECT THE OFFICE HIMSELF.
Their respect for the office is highly dependent on who the occupant is. They don't respect the presidency equally. Trump voters see the world through a tribal lens. James Carville said it right on election night 2016: the people who voted for Trump don't want to be united; they want the world to live by its terms. Part of their contempt for Obama, beyond his ethnicity, was his worldview of inclusion - a worldview that embraces the idea that America's not just a country for white Christians, but also Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Muslims, gays, immigrants, women, and others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Winston OBoogie View Post
I would hope that the next president would again return respect to the office. I do not like the man, but he was legally elected and has held the office. He will get a portrait, and it will be revealed with respect. After that, I hope some kid draws a mustache on it with a sharpie.
Respecting the office means prosecuting all of the criminals who are part of this corrupt cabal. Otherwise, the message going forward will be that criminals who occupy the white house will invariably be exonerated by virtue of political tradition which says "We don't prosecute our political rivals." That's the sticky wicket we're in now. We're forced to confront the assault on our democracy, but confronting that assault means prosecuting political rivals. The apolitical among us might assume that Democrats are just trying to get even.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Last edited by asahi; 05-21-2020 at 07:03 PM.
  #70  
Old 05-22-2020, 04:55 AM
Pardel-Lux's Avatar
Pardel-Lux is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Berlin
Posts: 456
I can only hope his successor unveils his protrait and lets me paint it. Like that, if I may attempt to be so tasteless as he is.
__________________
When I was younger I could remember anything, whether it had happened or not; but my faculties are decaying now and soon I shall be so I cannot remember any but the things that never happened. It is sad to go to pieces like this but we all have to do it.
Mark Twain
  #71  
Old 05-22-2020, 03:39 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 10,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimfromNapa View Post
Trump is not a piece of shit. He is an entire shit. He is the grand daddy of all shit.
This hard to argue with. But he's also smaller pieces. "Donald Trump: Piece Of Shit" is a true statement, as well as your's is, too.
  #72  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:33 PM
Mike Mabes is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 809
This got me looking at past portraits of Presidents. For Bush I, it is below. Looked at several sites, trying to find out who those generals are, I assume they are generals, in the background painting. One would think that would be part of the description of an offical portrait of a President.

In any case, was not a big fan of Obama's portrait, just seemed a little too cutting edge. Not serious enough. But after seeing some of the other President's portraits, Obama's portrait is, sorry, growing on me.


https://www.whitehousehistory.org/ph...eorge-h-w-bush
  #73  
Old 05-23-2020, 06:53 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 13,259
I was not a fan of Obama's portrait either -- agreed that it was too edgy.
  #74  
Old 05-23-2020, 11:10 AM
SingleMalt is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Colorado Coast
Posts: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Mabes View Post
This got me looking at past portraits of Presidents. For Bush I, it is below. Looked at several sites, trying to find out who those generals are, I assume they are generals, in the background painting. One would think that would be part of the description of an offical portrait of a President.

In any case, was not a big fan of Obama's portrait, just seemed a little too cutting edge. Not serious enough. But after seeing some of the other President's portraits, Obama's portrait is, sorry, growing on me.


https://www.whitehousehistory.org/ph...eorge-h-w-bush
The painting in the background is The Peacemakers by George P.A. Healy.
  #75  
Old 05-23-2020, 01:33 PM
kayaker's Avatar
kayaker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rural Western PA
Posts: 34,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
I was not a fan of Obama's portrait either -- agreed that it was too edgy.
Looks just like him, though. I'd hang it in my home.


ETA: assuming he'd sign it.

Last edited by kayaker; 05-23-2020 at 01:33 PM.
  #76  
Old 05-23-2020, 03:55 PM
Mike Mabes is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 809
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingleMalt View Post
The painting in the background is The Peacemakers by George P.A. Healy.
Thanks. I thought it was Grant. You would think in the official sites about the portrait there would be an explanation. Just like the official description of Obama's portrait should be- "No, he is not sitting in the outfield of Wrigley Field."
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:32 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017