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  #251  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:16 AM
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How the HELL did RED SKULL get to a whole different planet, ALIVE, after I saw him DIE on Earth in WWII in the first Captain America movie?
Who said he's alive when he shows up in Infinity War?
  #252  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:38 AM
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My daughter and I just watched Infinity War to get a little idea what all the foofawraw was about.

When Thanos went to Vormir with Gamera to get the Soul Stone, frikkin’ RED SKULL was there to tell him how to get it!

How the HELL did RED SKULL get to a whole different planet, ALIVE, after I saw him DIE on Earth in WWII in the first Captain America movie?

Do these people have no respect for reality?
The Red Skull didn't die - he was sent away by the Tesseract at the end of the first Cap movie.
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Last edited by galen ubal; 04-30-2019 at 01:39 AM. Reason: change "taken" for "sent"
  #253  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:49 AM
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A good movie of course, but not great. Most of it was a comedic caper on the scale of Pink Panther, more comedy than drama, not congruent with the events and ending of Infinity War, which was a better movie.

Shouldn't Nebula have warned them that the Soul Stone required someone to die to get it? She said it in Infinity War: "They went to Vormir, he (Thanos) returned with the Soul Stone, she didn't"* So she sends Clint and Natasha off with a toodle-loo, like sending kids off to grade school with sack lunches. She even plotted the coordinates into their ship's navigation. There should have been a "So, how the hell do we get the Soul Stone" discussion.

Best part: When dozens of orange circles appeared in the sky. You knew what it was and it was awesome. Cap fighting himself (wish it would have lasted longer).

Funniest part: 2012 Cap: "I can do this all day." Endgame Cap: "I know, I know."

So Stormbreaker easily defeats a full Infinity Gauntlet and impales Thanos wearing it, but a weaker Thanos at the end of Endgame is now a match for Thor with Mjolnir and Stormbreaker?

How did the Avengers know snapping their fingers would undo everything and not half the universe again?
  #254  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:18 AM
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No he didn't.
Yes I did. There is nothing I didn't "get" about the scene, and there aren't enough in the world to accurately respond to your posts.
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Old 04-30-2019, 02:19 AM
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I don't think we're supposed to take the snapping as being a black box where it's a mechanical function that has no mental component.
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  #256  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:31 AM
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So I'm idly wondering whether changing Parker's line would have solved bucketybucks precipitation of disbelief, or whether it was the women all physically converging at one time that was the problem.
Probably not. The issue is that Captain Marvell has just flown through a hulking great lump of space metal like it was wet tissue, through millions of tons of spaceship without even slowing down and it has literally just happened before landing beside Spiderman. And he looks at her and looks at the bunch of mooks and says "I don't know how you are going to get through all that".

Really? I had a pretty good idea how she was probably going to do it.

I have no problem with the women all converging, none whatsoever. If they had all converged to back up Scarlett Witch or even Danvers go toe to toe with Thanos I wouldn't have passed any remarks. But they didn't, they ganged up to help Danvers go from A to B immediately after she had demonstrated how little help she ever would need to go from A to B.

Last edited by bucketybuck; 04-30-2019 at 02:33 AM.
  #257  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:51 AM
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Shouldn't Nebula have warned them that the Soul Stone required someone to die to get it? She said it in Infinity War: "They went to Vormir, he (Thanos) returned with the Soul Stone, she didn't"* So she sends Clint and Natasha off with a toodle-loo, like sending kids off to grade school with sack lunches. She even plotted the coordinates into their ship's navigation. There should have been a "So, how the hell do we get the Soul Stone" discussion.
She didn't know what happened there, only that Thanos left with Gamora but came back alone. They certainly knew Gamora died while getting the stone, but there was no reason for them to assume she had to die to get the stone. They probably just figured she died trying to stop Thanos getting it. I don't think there was any indication that the soul stone wasn't just there for the taking like the others.
  #258  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:55 AM
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She didn't know what happened there, only that Thanos left with Gamora but came back alone. They certainly knew Gamora died while getting the stone, but there was no reason for them to assume she had to die to get the stone. They probably just figured she died trying to stop Thanos getting it. I don't think there was any indication that the soul stone wasn't just there for the taking like the others.
When the two pairs split up, didn't Nebula say the line, "I hope they don't fall out..."

I can't decide if she meant physically fall out of the spaceship which was now on autopilot, or if it was a subtle nod at what was to come?

Last edited by bucketybuck; 04-30-2019 at 02:55 AM.
  #259  
Old 04-30-2019, 03:11 AM
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Yes I did. There is nothing I didn't "get" about the scene, and there aren't enough in the world to accurately respond to your posts.
...except for the bit where you claimed that Captain Marvel didn't need any help, yet she obviously did need help because ultimately she got taken down by Thanos. Your entire argument relied on this point.
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Old 04-30-2019, 03:28 AM
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...except for the bit where you claimed that Captain Marvel didn't need any help, yet she obviously did need help because ultimately she got taken down by Thanos. Your entire argument relied on this point.
No, it did not. I guess you just didn't get it.
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Old 04-30-2019, 03:42 AM
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No, it did not.
...yeah, it really did.

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I guess you just didn't get it.
I did get it, but I suspect that people are getting bored of this conversation now, so I'll leave it at that.
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Old 04-30-2019, 03:44 AM
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Re the Girl power scene.
The objection to it is that itís clear pandering and does not make sense in context. You have a bunch of fighters, who basically donít know each other assemble for one task. In the middle of fighting.
Which means that they abandoned whatever other task they were doing.

In the scheme of the storyline, its ridiculous. Compare and contrast with probably the best fight scene in Infiniti War, also all female, when Scarlett Witch, Nat and Okoye fight the presumably female Proxima Midnight. It was good because it developed organically.

There have been plenty of all male grouping which have been failed and been criticized for being pandering and servicey.
See for instance the Game of Thrones episode with the commando squad beyond the wall.
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Old 04-30-2019, 03:54 AM
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Again I feel I must add that this is a comic book movie, ripped directly from the pages of comic books, using comic book sensibilities to get across comic book themes in a comic book way. If this was a WWII movie, I'd be right with everybody screaming about logistics, but the simple answer to all these burning questions of 'how did they all come together at once' - 'why didn't Captain Marvel slice through everyone like she sliced through the ship' - 'how did Tony steal the stones' - 'why don't people rematerialize in the middle of rocks' - all of that has one simple answer: because comic books. How are you going to create a splash page of heroes if you don't get them to all come together in a non-logistical way in the middle of the ultimate chaos?
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Old 04-30-2019, 04:06 AM
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all of that has one simple answer: because comic books. How are you going to create a splash page of heroes if you don't get them to all come together in a non-logistical way in the middle of the ultimate chaos?
But you don't have to claim "comic books", they can have it both ways, they could easily have had their cake and eat it too. Have their splash page of heroes, just don't do it in such a hamfisted way.

There are lots of ways they could have done that scene. Here's another, after 10 minutes of the 3 lads fighting Thanos and being left beaten on the ground, Captain America is standing alone and then some portals open behind him. Who steps out first? All those same women, front and centre and ready to kick ass. You could even give them the same line, "Don't worry cap, you aren't alone".

They could have done that, they could have had them support Wanda against Thanos, they could have had it be exclusively women carrying the gauntlet across the battlefield, there are lots of ways they could have went for that hero shot. There was no need to do it so badly and it is a shame that they did.
  #265  
Old 04-30-2019, 04:14 AM
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But you don't have to claim "comic books", they can have it both ways, they could easily have had their cake and eat it too. Have their splash page of heroes, just don't do it in such a hamfisted way.
Welp. You're not going to sell me. "Hamfisted" may as well be a synonym for "because comic books."

My bottom line is, when you've got talking raccoons, anthropomorphic trees, quantum realms, fat Norse gods, ethereal beings who can manipulate time and all life in the universe because he's got five rocks in his glove, ... saying, "yeah, like that would ever happen," regarding anything else in the movie is a little short-sighted.
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Old 04-30-2019, 04:39 AM
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But you don't have to claim "comic books", they can have it both ways, they could easily have had their cake and eat it too. Have their splash page of heroes, just don't do it in such a hamfisted way.

There are lots of ways they could have done that scene. Here's another, after 10 minutes of the 3 lads fighting Thanos and being left beaten on the ground, Captain America is standing alone and then some portals open behind him. Who steps out first? All those same women, front and centre and ready to kick ass. You could even give them the same line, "Don't worry cap, you aren't alone".

They could have done that, they could have had them support Wanda against Thanos, they could have had it be exclusively women carrying the gauntlet across the battlefield, there are lots of ways they could have went for that hero shot. There was no need to do it so badly and it is a shame that they did.
You know that until I saw the discussion about it here, I had not even thought of that scene as anything special. The one thing that did pull me out of the moment, even though it was cool, was that without much preamble all of these people are ready to fight Thanos again after being restored. I mean did Bruce, in addition to restoring them make them aware a battle was going on? Of course not, he did not know they were about to be attacked.

Speaking of Bruce, I loved the call back to the scene in the first Secret Wars crossover series when he held up a mountain to keep the heroes alive. I am not the only one that noticed that, right?

//i\\
  #267  
Old 04-30-2019, 05:48 AM
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The one thing that did pull me out of the moment, even though it was cool, was that without much preamble all of these people are ready to fight Thanos again after being restored. I mean did Bruce, in addition to restoring them make them aware a battle was going on? Of course not, he did not know they were about to be attacked.
That was all Dr Strange as far as I see it. He knew what was going to happen and once he was restored immediately set about getting everybody where they needed to be.
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Old 04-30-2019, 05:57 AM
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How so? Strange was not sure this was the victorious time line until much later in the action.
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Old 04-30-2019, 06:34 AM
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My bottom line is, when you've got talking raccoons, anthropomorphic trees, quantum realms, fat Norse gods, ethereal beings who can manipulate time and all life in the universe because he's got five rocks in his glove, ... saying, "yeah, like that would ever happen," regarding anything else in the movie is a little short-sighted.
But it does happen. And it didn't happen because of some protracted internet debate or anything, it was people who were watching the film and that scene pulled them out of the moment and reminded them "Hey, this is just a movie and not something that's happening" and that's a failure for that scene at least with that audience member. I play roleplaying games and, in discussing them, the concept of verisimilitude comes up all the time. You can have elves and fireballs and dragons and dark gods but if you still need to maintain that illusion and convince people that it's a real world and not just randomly throw nonsense in and say "But there's elves, man!!" because that doesn't work as an excuse.

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How so? Strange was not sure this was the victorious time line until much later in the action.
Sure, but if he knew how that last time would play out, then he's going to work to get the pieces in place and not just sit on a stump and have a smoke (unless that was how the winning time shook out).
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Old 04-30-2019, 06:53 AM
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That was all Dr Strange as far as I see it. He knew what was going to happen and once he was restored immediately set about getting everybody where they needed to be.
I realize that, and I also realize that Dr. Strange knew that it was important that he boost the signal on the Falcon's communicator as well as perfectly place the first portal so that the Falcon could say "On your left" in a call back to Captain America: Winter Soldier before he even emerged from the portal.

It was a cool entrance and moment, but having it occur before he flew out of the portal did not make sense. It would have made more sense to have it happen as some creature was about to take out Captain America from his left, and give him the dramatic save rather than simply give Falcon the dramatic entrance.

//i\\

Last edited by icon; 04-30-2019 at 06:55 AM.
  #271  
Old 04-30-2019, 07:19 AM
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How so? Strange was not sure this was the victorious time line until much later in the action.
Well, Spiderman flat out said to Tony Stark when they met that he had passed out for a few minutes, then woke up to Dr Strange telling everybody that it had been 5 years and that they needed to get ready.

Thats my recollection anyway.
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Old 04-30-2019, 07:29 AM
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Well he saw 14 million scenarios. Presumably several were similar.
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Old 04-30-2019, 07:50 AM
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Well he saw 14 million scenarios. Presumably several were similar.
I'd assume he saw a bunch where Thanos just flat out decisively wins, some where they fail to figure out the quantum realm, some where they fail to get the stones, some where Thanos wins the final fight, some where just random shit happens, etc. But if he knows that the winning path includes a final battle then he's going to get that battle going.
  #274  
Old 04-30-2019, 08:33 AM
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How so? Strange was not sure this was the victorious time line until much later in the action.
Really? All I saw of Strange was meaningful looks at Stark.

And did anyone spot when they pulled the switcheroo on the gauntlet?
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Old 04-30-2019, 08:53 AM
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And did anyone spot when they pulled the switcheroo on the gauntlet?
When Stark tusseled with Thanos to get the gauntlet off of him. Since the new gauntlet was Stark's technology, he didn't really have to physically pull it off of Thanos's hands...he was able to just command it to re-form around his own hand, like all of his Iron Man armor since about IM3.
  #276  
Old 04-30-2019, 09:09 AM
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Speaking of Bruce, I loved the call back to the scene in the first Secret Wars crossover series when he held up a mountain to keep the heroes alive. I am not the only one that noticed that, right?

//i\\
I noticed that as well and I wondered if they were going to lean a little harder into it. Push Hulk a bit to make him angrier and then work their way out of the rubble but it didn't play out that way.

I did call out Captain America wielding Mjlonir but I wasn't thinking about it until right as it was about to happen. Great callback.

Did anyone see Howard the Duck in the final battle? Per a few sites on the Internet, he was there but I missed him.

Last edited by Intergalactic Gladiator; 04-30-2019 at 09:10 AM.
  #277  
Old 04-30-2019, 09:26 AM
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I'd assume he saw a bunch where Thanos just flat out decisively wins, some where they fail to figure out the quantum realm, some where they fail to get the stones, some where Thanos wins the final fight, some where just random shit happens, etc. But if he knows that the winning path includes a final battle then he's going to get that battle going.
Exactly. So while he knows at the start that the winning scenario includes a battle, which he gets going he does not know the senario he is in, is it.
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Really? All I saw of Strange was meaningful looks at Stark.
Strange is holding back the water from consuming the battlefield. Suddenly you see a light bulb or eureka look on his face, and he looks at Stark and holds up a finger, as if to say yes this is it.
  #278  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:18 AM
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When Stark tusseled with Thanos to get the gauntlet off of him. Since the new gauntlet was Stark's technology, he didn't really have to physically pull it off of Thanos's hands...he was able to just command it to re-form around his own hand, like all of his Iron Man armor since about IM3.
Except that Thanos was still still wearing the gauntlet, just missing the gems.

I have zero problem with the idea that Stark built some tech into the new gauntlet to begin with which allowed him to still control it... but as the scene plays out, it seems like maybe he just had really fast pickpocket fingers or something? I'd rather it was the former, because that's very Tony, even with people he trusts. But I wish we saw it a bit more explicitly.
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  #279  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:31 AM
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Except that Thanos was still still wearing the gauntlet, just missing the gems.
IIRC, he was wearing a plain gold gauntlet, not a Stark-tech-looking gauntlet. But even if I'm wrong about that, simple answer...Stark mentally had the armor with the gems form around his own hand, and simultaneously had a new armored glove form around Thanos's, so he wouldn't notice the switch until too late.

Last edited by cmkeller; 04-30-2019 at 10:33 AM.
  #280  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:53 AM
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I realize that, and I also realize that Dr. Strange knew that it was important that he boost the signal on the Falcon's communicator as well as perfectly place the first portal so that the Falcon could say "On your left" in a call back to Captain America: Winter Soldier before he even emerged from the portal.

It was a cool entrance and moment, but having it occur before he flew out of the portal did not make sense. It would have made more sense to have it happen as some creature was about to take out Captain America from his left, and give him the dramatic save rather than simply give Falcon the dramatic entrance.

//i\\
There's no need to boost the signal - the radio waves should go through the portal just as well as visible light does. Which it clearly can, since you can look through a portal and see what's on the other side.
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Old 04-30-2019, 11:01 AM
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Strange is holding back the water from consuming the battlefield. Suddenly you see a light bulb or eureka look on his face, and he looks at Stark and holds up a finger, as if to say yes this is it.
Ah, I thought he was going to tell Stark that he was going to die and thought better of it.
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Old 04-30-2019, 11:02 AM
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IIRC, he was wearing a plain gold gauntlet, not a Stark-tech-looking gauntlet. But even if I'm wrong about that, simple answer...Stark mentally had the armor with the gems form around his own hand, and simultaneously had a new armored glove form around Thanos's, so he wouldn't notice the switch until too late.
So the actual transfer wasn't shown? That disappoints me.
  #283  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:09 AM
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So the actual transfer wasn't shown? That disappoints me.
They kind of show the gems sort of bonding with Stark's suit gauntlet. It's pretty brief. It was one of the best moments in the last part of the movie, just before he says he is Iron Man and snaps his fingers, dusting the invaders and Thanos.
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  #284  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:22 AM
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Tony attacks Thanos, and it appears that he's trying to pull the guantlet off Thanos's hand. Then Thanos throws him off, says "I am... inevitable" and snaps his fingers. Nothing happens, he looks at the gauntlet, and there are no stones on it. It cuts to Tony - his glove is reshaping in that cool Iron Man way, creating sockets for the Infinity Stones which then find their way to the new sockets. He says "But I am Iron Man" and snaps his fingers.

So I think he didn't switch gloves, he just somehow stole the stones off Thanos's glove. We really have no idea why the Stones stay on the glove after all - in IW whenever Thanos gets a new one, he just holds it an inch over the gauntlet and it snaps into the socket as if pulled there. So there's some tech in the gauntlet that has an affinity for Stones. Fanwank - when they killed Thanos at the beginning of Endgame, they took the Infinity Gauntlet back with them. Tony studied it's tech to create his own IG. But it's now based on Stark tech as well as Asgard/Dwarf tech. So when Tony touches it, he can take control of it, and turn off the tech that hold the Stones, then reconfigure his own glove to be an Infinity Gauntlet.
  #285  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:38 AM
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So the actual transfer wasn't shown? That disappoints me.
If it were shown - then the scene would have fallen apart and not been nearly as good.

The whole point of the scene was for Thanos (and the unspoiled audience) to think he had won again - that he was "inevitable' - and then for our team - specifically Iron Man - to win in clever/unexpected manner.

Showing the actual switcheroo would have undermined the entire flow.,

Last edited by simster; 04-30-2019 at 11:40 AM.
  #286  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:41 AM
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Re the Girl power scene.
The objection to it is that itís clear pandering and does not make sense in context. You have a bunch of fighters, who basically donít know each other assemble for one task. In the middle of fighting.
Which means that they abandoned whatever other task they were doing.

In the scheme of the storyline, its ridiculous. Compare and contrast with probably the best fight scene in Infiniti War, also all female, when Scarlett Witch, Nat and Okoye fight the presumably female Proxima Midnight. It was good because it developed organically.

There have been plenty of all male grouping which have been failed and been criticized for being pandering and servicey.
See for instance the Game of Thrones episode with the commando squad beyond the wall.
I am female and until I read this I didn't put an "all female" or "girl power" view on the Scarlet Witch, Nat, and Okoye fight in Infinity War.

However, when I saw the all female battle scene in Endgame, my first thought was "well, that was gratuitous".
  #287  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:13 PM
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Fanwank - when they killed Thanos at the beginning of Endgame, they took the Infinity Gauntlet back with them. Tony studied it's tech to create his own IG. But it's now based on Stark tech as well as Asgard/Dwarf tech. So when Tony touches it, he can take control of it, and turn off the tech that hold the Stones, then reconfigure his own glove to be an Infinity Gauntlet.
It's barely even a fanwank. I think someone above describe Stark as paranoid and clever. One recurring theme with Stark is that he's constantly updating his suits to account for his past failures.

Icing problem? Change the material.
Can't survive an attack from lightning whip guy? Add capacitors to hold electricity
Thanos can dtroy your nano-tech shield? Add a forcefield projector
Can get Thanos's glove off his hand? Make it so your suit can pull the stones off instead.
  #288  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:23 PM
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Now that they've gotten rid of Thanos and introduced alternate timelines and timey wimey shenanigans maybe the new big bad will be Kang the Conqueror.
  #289  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
MaxTheVool:



IIRC, he was wearing a plain gold gauntlet, not a Stark-tech-looking gauntlet. But even if I'm wrong about that, simple answer...Stark mentally had the armor with the gems form around his own hand, and simultaneously had a new armored glove form around Thanos's, so he wouldn't notice the switch until too late.
Tony and Rocket make a Stark-Tech gauntlet to hold the stones. It held the stones through the second half of the movie (and resized to fit Hulk's hand). But it was Stark tech, which makes moving the stones to his gauntlet seems plausible and the empty gauntlet snap was awesome.

Last edited by Unintentionally Blank; 04-30-2019 at 12:30 PM.
  #290  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:42 PM
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Speaking of Bruce, I loved the call back to the scene in the first Secret Wars crossover series when he held up a mountain to keep the heroes alive. I am not the only one that noticed that, right?
That was the first thing I thought of too. It would only have made it better if they had someone take the Mr. Fantastic role of insulting Hulk to make him madder and pump up his strength.

On the whole I liked Professor Hulk in the movie, but would have liked to see at least a little bit of that old getting angrier / getting stronger vibe. Though the scene in New York where he's fake raging was also a lot of fun.
  #291  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:56 PM
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It's barely even a fanwank. I think someone above describe Stark as paranoid and clever. One recurring theme with Stark is that he's constantly updating his suits to account for his past failures.

Icing problem? Change the material.
Can't survive an attack from lightning whip guy? Add capacitors to hold electricity
Thanos can dtroy your nano-tech shield? Add a forcefield projector
Can get Thanos's glove off his hand? Make it so your suit can pull the stones off instead.
And that's what makes him Iron Man.
  #292  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:08 PM
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Made.
  #293  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:10 PM
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Made.
too soon dude - too soon.
  #294  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:16 PM
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Heavy boots of lead
Fills his victims full of dread
Running as fast as they can
Iron Man lives again!
  #295  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:25 PM
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Well, he certainly did travel time for the future of mankind.
  #296  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:25 PM
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Hereís another question regarding the infinity stones. When Hulk is getting the time stone we learn that the timelines will be thrown off if the infinity stones arenít returned to the same time they were taken from. IIRC Captain America said something about clipping the branches when he was returning them. The question I have is why do these alternate timelines need the stones? In the main timeline the stones have been gone for five years since Thanosís second snap when he destroyed them. If the main timeline can continue just fine without the stones, why do the alternate timelines need them?
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Old 04-30-2019, 01:53 PM
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Hereís another question regarding the infinity stones. When Hulk is getting the time stone we learn that the timelines will be thrown off if the infinity stones arenít returned to the same time they were taken from. IIRC Captain America said something about clipping the branches when he was returning them. The question I have is why do these alternate timelines need the stones? In the main timeline the stones have been gone for five years since Thanosís second snap when he destroyed them. If the main timeline can continue just fine without the stones, why do the alternate timelines need them?
Well, without the time stone they all get wiped out by Dormamu.
  #298  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:08 PM
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Well, without the time stone they all get wiped out by Dormamu.
Right - its not that the timeline 'needs them to stay straight' - its that removing them from the 'past of this timeline' will fracture 'this' timeline.

SO - its fine that the stones were destroyed - that's what was 'meant to happen'. It's a closed loop now - once cap returned them to 'the moment' they were taken (wonder how exact he needed to be and how he pulled that caper off)

Last edited by simster; 04-30-2019 at 02:11 PM.
  #299  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:15 PM
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I was surprised when Gwyneth showed up in a blue Iron-Man suit. I know they teased it earlier with the daughter in the tent.

I just figured she'd come out using her fiery power from Iron Man 3. Wonder what happened to that?
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  #300  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:19 PM
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I was surprised when Gwyneth showed up in a blue Iron-Man suit. I know they teased it earlier with the daughter in the tent.

I just figured she'd come out using her fiery power from Iron Man 3. Wonder what happened to that?
She's as cold as ice, willing to sacrifice....

nah - I thought Tony explicitly said he could 'cure' that for her and then did (offscreen).
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