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  #201  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:34 AM
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I thought it was probably the least disappointing way to end it.

On Brandon Stark being Tha King:
Tyrion centered his argument on the premise a knower of history and storyteller would be the best sort of leader. Which makes sense. When it comes to settling disputes Bran can look back through each party's story/perspective, correct some erroneous information possibly complicating the discord, and explain ALL of this to all the involved parties and then dispense a little justice. Sort of a forced empathy. Stories have roots, and the roots have roots (like a tree, get it?), so to fully understand what's up you kneed to know what's happened, and Bran knows the truth of ALL the roots. As far as ending the series like they did, a story also has branches that are constantly growing. What we've seen so far has been a glimpse of the roots, and a trunk composed of numerous interconnected stories, which is a nice start but at some point the trunk forms branches that have only their origin in common. And of course it helps that Tyrion recognized that those least fit for power are the ones who seek it. I'm still not sure if he secretly wanted The Hand job even while saying he didn't. What were his options anyway?


And I'm glad Jon fucked off to The Real North, but I didn't much care for the two shady characters who were following him around in KL. I was waiting for someone to slip a blade between his ribs.
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  #202  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:41 AM
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I still don't see how any of the episode titles were in any way spoilery while out of context.
  #203  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:42 AM
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Another argument for Bran is that, as he said, he doesn't want anything any longer. So someone not motivated by personal greed might look to what's best for the people.
  #204  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:43 AM
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Tyrion is definitely the de facto king now. I feel kind of bad for him running the small council meetings: Bronn, Brienne, King Bran. They just need to find a Brian and a Bruno to fill out the last two seats and they'll have the whole set. Speaking of Brienne, I was really happy with where she ended up. I would have been really ticked off if the last we saw of her was standing in the rain bawling about Jaime. Now she's in a respected position and she's still honoring her oath to Catelyn by watching over one of her children.

When we saw Tyrion adjusting the chairs in the rebuilt small council chamber, I told my son that I hoped as they were rebuilding the Red Keep that they made it more ADA-compliant*.

I was amused by Sansa's declaration that the North would not bend a knee to anyone and then we see her coronation ceremony where everyone else in the North bends their knees to her. I guess what she really meant was *she* wouldn't bend the knee to anyone.

I'm assuming that was Nuevo Castle Black Jon arrived at? The topography of the Wall scenes didn't make sense to me. The wall was destroyed down to the ground, right? So now, there is apparently a fort built across the gap with walls and gates and so forth. It's just 20-feet high instead of 1000-feet high. So why did they have to travel some distance away to a still intact part of the wall to cross? I assume it was a thematic thing tying back to the beginning of the show, but from an architectural point of view it doesn't make any sense.

I'm also assuming Jon is going north with the Wildlings and never coming back. As someone else said, becoming the new Mance Rayder. When Tormund and Jon are saying goodbye in episode 4, didn't Jon say he wished he could go with Tormund? Now he is. Also, with the Dothraki and Unsullied leaving Westeros, why does anyone care about the Jon compromise? If he wants to go back south and travel around, who's going to care?

I think the default assumption is that when King Bran dies there will be a lot of political manuevering and perhaps even another civil war to replace him. However, my personal belief, with nothing from the show to really back it up, is that a small council with Tyrion, Sam, Brienne and Davos will move towards giving a voice to the common people. I don't think the next leader will be democratically elected, but maybe there will be a representative of the merchant class on that platform for the next election. The wheel cannot be broken in one fell swoop, but maybe they can knock out a spoke or two and subsequent generations can continue with the breaking.

*) I guess that should be WDA: Westerosi with Disabilities Act.
  #205  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:48 AM
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I'm assuming that was Nuevo Castle Black Jon arrived at? The topography of the Wall scenes didn't make sense to me. The wall was destroyed down to the ground, right? So now, there is apparently a fort built across the gap with walls and gates and so forth. It's just 20-feet high instead of 1000-feet high. So why did they have to travel some distance away to a still intact part of the wall to cross? I assume it was a thematic thing tying back to the beginning of the show, but from an architectural point of view it doesn't make any sense.
A very small portion of the Wall was destroyed near Eastwatch by the Sea, not near Castle Black.
  #206  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:49 AM
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I am wondering what happens to what's left of the Dothraki in Wetseros. Grey Worm leads the Unsullied but they only saw Dany as their leader and would not take kindly to her being killed.

I also wonder what is the fate of Dany's empire in Essos. Dario was running the store there and loved her. Ether he i in charge and is pissed or he will be overthrown and it will be Slaver's Bay again.
  #207  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:53 AM
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Any else surprised the writers resisted the urge to make Ayra or Brienne pregnant?

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  #208  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:55 AM
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Hmm.. Did Jamie ever sit on the small council?
If he didn't, it was because he was off at war or held prisoner throughout the entirety of Joffrey and Tommen's reigns. I'm not sure if he was ever officially part of Cersei's Queensguard. I don't think Cersei really had a small council, either.

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I believe someone addressed him as "Grand Maester."
That was after Bran became King. Sam was dressed in black during the Witangamot, but I can't imagine he was there representing the Night's Watch? Maybe he just hadn't had a chance to change into his Lord Tarly duds? He voted, so he wasn't just there as Jon's supportive friend.

I do wonder what Davos's role was in that group? He's a lord, made so by Stannis, but a fairly minor one, if I recall.

"Grandmaester" is, I believe, just the title of the maester assigned to King's Landing to advise the King. The actual leader of the maesters is the Archmaester at the Citadel, who Sam mentioned several times during the small council.

I'm honestly surprised they let him back into the Citadel after he stole a bunch of books and dropped out. And he didn't die, so what about his Night's Watch vows?
  #209  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:55 AM
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Another who doesn't make sense is Jon. He looks like a complete idiot, is on the verge of following Dany just because she's the queen, and needed a lot of convincing. Wasn't he supposed to be aleader of men with a strong moral character? He doesn't appear like this at all. Also, it's too bad that they didn't manage to depict him as deeply in love with Danaerys. He supposedly was, but it really never seemed so. If he had appeared to be torn between the horror of what Danny had done and his love for her, it would have been more dramatic. I assume that what we have been shown is supposed to be something like that, but it seemed more like "You really think that it's that bad? But, but...shouldn't we obey her anyway? Well, if you say so, maybe I should kill her. Or maybe not. Is it really right?" He seemed to have an IQ of 80, the moral sense of a turnip, and to be ready to follow whoever spoke last.
I agree completely with respect to Jon and said so in post #122.

I think the show runners wanted to finish up and move on quickly and didn't spend the time or energy on the scripts to develop the characters' motivations properly. I think they should have hired additional writers to work from their broad outlines to complete the story in two seasons instead of one.
  #210  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:56 AM
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I think the default assumption is that when King Bran dies there will be a lot of political manuevering and perhaps even another civil war to replace him.
I think they're in for an unpleasant surprise--isn't the Raven given Tolkien elf immortality? They'd be waiting a long time.
  #211  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:58 AM
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Critical reaction is decidedly mixed: https://www.metacritic.com/feature/g...-finale-review
  #212  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:01 AM
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Jon has always been about protecting innocent people. He was never going to be okay with the torching of King’s Landing.

To the extent he resenting King’s Landing, it was the people in power he hated, not the general populace.

Jon executed those people for murder. He didn’t blow away thousands of people in the manner and with the motivation of Danaerys.

And he, like Tyrion, was ultimately horrified by the prospect of doing this in Winterfell and Dorne and then everywhere beyond Westeros.

Yes Jon has traits like loyalty but he’s not an automaton. He and Tyrion and Varys all realized at some point that Daenerys was a disaster and they had choices to make.

Jon took a little bit longer because of his feelings for Daenerys but ultimately he couldn’t weigh that against continuing blood and fire and the destruction of millions.

Jon is a creature of duty but in the end he had to decide to whom he owed the greater duty. And it was completely in character for him to decide that it wasn’t to Daenerys.
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  #213  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:04 AM
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I am wondering what happens to what's left of the Dothraki in Wetseros. Grey Worm leads the Unsullied but they only saw Dany as their leader and would not take kindly to her being killed.

I also wonder what is the fate of Dany's empire in Essos. Dario was running the store there and loved her. Ether he i in charge and is pissed or he will be overthrown and it will be Slaver's Bay again.
The Unsullied were sailing away in ships. I assume the Dothraki left also.
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  #214  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:04 AM
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It still seems out of place because, even granting that in George R.R. Martin's mad-up world things might get invented at different times, you don't have technology like that existing in a vacuum. Nobody in the books or the TV series, for instance, has eyeglasses, or uses a magnifier, or anyone of the other precursors to telescopes we've seen in real history.
The check in dude at the citidel who met with Sam and Gilly had a crude pair of glasses.
  #215  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:06 AM
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I felt very little emotion from the finale. But mostly I’m sad that Varys didn’t get to the end. This was his goal all along, to see the country governed for the benefit of the people.
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  #216  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:06 AM
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Last night's cameo beverage appearance was a plastic water bottle:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/20/tv-sh...ntl/index.html
  #217  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:10 AM
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And of course it helps that Tyrion recognized that those least fit for power are the ones who seek it. I'm still not sure if he secretly wanted The Hand job even while saying he didn't. What were his options anyway?
They didn't come out and say it, but I guess Tyrion is Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West now? Everyone always said he was the Lannister most like his father. I'm glad that "Tyrion is secretly a Targaryen" theory didn't pan out.
  #218  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:12 AM
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Jon Snow didn't appear to be joining the Night's Watch, but heading north with the freefolk to live as a sort of Mance Rayder character. Do, I have that right?
My take was that politically it was agreed he would join the Nights Watch. He was being escorted by two members to the wall, just as we've seen in past episodes when someone is being sent to the wall. Upon arrival however, Tormund and the free folk were there. With the context of Arya telling him she won't be returning to Westeros and Sansa in control of The North, my take is Jon decided to head north of the wall to live out his days with the free folk instead. And it's not like the remnants of the Night Watch could stop that from happening if they even wanted to.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:15 AM
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Last night's cameo beverage appearance was a plastic water bottle:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/20/tv-sh...ntl/index.html
that stuff happens all time time not sure why people are so upset. Braveheart had a guy in jeans under his tunic. And a van was in a scene too.
  #220  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:19 AM
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that stuff happens all time time not sure why people are so upset. Braveheart had a guy in jeans under his tunic. And a van was in a scene too.
Lord of the Rings had a car driving by in the background.
  #221  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:24 AM
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Jon Snow didn't appear to be joining the Night's Watch, but heading north with the freefolk to live as a sort of Mance Rayder character. Do, I have that right?
I believe they said he had to rejoin the Night's Watch as part of his sentence, but didn't explain what the Night's Watch was supposed to do besides be a repository for men who didn't have other options. This was the most WTF part of the episode for me. But maybe the realm still has need of a monastic force of peacekeepers, though not just in the North. And I believe Jon had a couple of black-clad Brothers with him, and of course someone had to close the door behind him and the Wildlings as they left Castle Black.

I can understand the Wildlings wanting to go back North of the Wall since that was the life they knew. I presume they were hunter-gatherers and wouldn't have been happy as farmers south of the Wall. However, the economy of Beyond the Wall was always pretty mysterious. How so many people could live by hunting didn't make sense. On the other hand, we have only ever seen Beyond the Wall in winter when everything is covered in snow, so maybe it's a bit more appealing when things thaw out.
  #222  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:32 AM
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And since GoT was loosely based on the War of the Roses, which was a 30+ year conflict between two very powerful branches of the Plantagenet dynasty, this ending was the OPPOSITE of what happened with the real war.

The real War of the Roses ended when one claimant, Henry Tudor, with Plantagenet blood and ties to both the Lancasters (Lannisters) and Yorks (Starks) seized control of the throne by virtue winning a major battle. This consolidation of power, and his/his heirs' subsequent killing/imprisoning of anyone else with Plantagenet (Targaryen) blood ultimately, and perhaps ironically, led to peace. Out of the ashes of the Plantagenet dynasty rose the Tudor dynasty, arguably the greatest English dynasty in history (though the reign of King Charles the Tampon promises much.)

After decades of civil war, with both the nobles and commoners exhausted and gutted of their peace, their money, their food, and their men, Henry VII's reign must have been a relief to the English people.

But. Essential to this peace was the notion that the succession was finally settled! There would be no more fighting over who had the superior claim; it was understood that Henry's heirs would take the throne, as both a blood right and a birth right. They were so war weary that when Henry VIII's only male heir, they allowed his previously declared bastard female heirs (Bloody Mary and Elizabeth) to ascend to the throne.

Given that having royal blood was as essential to GOT lore as it was to English history, after all this chaos....it makes zero sense that they would elect a King who had NO chance of bearing an heir! Because, as Tyrion points out, once that King is dead, they'd all be back to Square One...and what's the chance of a bloodless mutually agreeable appointment happening again?

No, if they wanted peace for the realm, it would have made far more sense had they picked ANYONE who could have produced heirs v. a sterile king. Even the Greyjoy lesbian could have sucked it up and slept with a man for the sake of peace!

Instead, the future of Westeros holds yet another Civil War as 3 Starks, 2 Targaryens, and 1 Lannister, plus ALL their potential heirs, eventually duke it out for the right to sit on the iron-blob throne.

They should have elected Samwell Tarly.
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  #223  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:32 AM
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A very small portion of the Wall was destroyed near Eastwatch by the Sea, not near Castle Black.
Oh, that's right, the wall crumbled into the sea. Thanks for the memory jog.
  #224  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:32 AM
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I really liked it, but the pacing of the past two seasons has been horrible. The first six season were slow building and took their time. The past two season have been a sprint. This episode should have been two or three episodes.

Jon being conflicted about Dany makes total sense, he loves her and he has pledged his loyalty to her. Remember how harshly Ned judged Jaime for killing the Mad King? For Jon to do the same thing took a huge change in his thinking. The whole scene with him and Dany was him begging for her to not make him kill her.

Bran makes sense for king because as the three eyed raven he is disinterested in power politics and thus all of the houses have no reason to be suspicious of him. Plus the fact that he can't have children gives each hope that their offspring can be the next king.

Bronn makes sense for master of coin because the Reach is the richest part of Westeros now that the mines of Casterly Rock have been tapped out. Thus as lord of the part of the kingdom that will be contributing the most money he has the best incentive to spend it well.

I am happy for Jon that he gets to be king beyond the wall now. The only time he was really every happy in the series was his short time with Ygritte, maybe she has a sister. He deserves a happy retirement free of politics.
  #225  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:33 AM
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Before Jon Snow was elected Lord Commander, the Night's Watch was a penal colony tasked with keeping Wildlings out of Westeros. Not sure what's so confusing about them continuing to do the same job they did for thousands of years up until just a year or two ago.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:34 AM
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I think the shot of a green plant growing out of the snow as the wildlings went back north was very significant. Winter is over and the world might have changed for ever.
  #227  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:07 AM
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Before Jon Snow was elected Lord Commander, the Night's Watch was a penal colony tasked with keeping Wildlings out of Westeros. Not sure what's so confusing about them continuing to do the same job they did for thousands of years up until just a year or two ago.
I have my complaints about the season but so much of the complaining I hear from others seems to be grounded in a different understanding of Westeros and the story as told. This is another example. I've seen countless complaints online about Jon being sent to join the Night's Watch again with the premise being the Night King and White Walkers are defeated so there is no need for the Nights Watch. Um... true he and his army were defeated but that has nothing to do with at the time centuries of history of Westeros and the Night Watch. Few in Westeros believed the old stories of wights and evil beings beyond the wall. Even in Winterfell it was mostly fairly harmless stories to tell children. The real threat was the wildlings and thus the primary responsibility of the Nights Watch. Although there was a real reason for the creation of a magical wall and the Nights Watch based upon the Night King and White Walkers, it had all mostly been lost to time for the average common people. The Nights Watch was where you sent criminals, bastards, or those inconvenient and disappointing 3rd sons who you wanted out of the castle. That's a function that I'm assuming even Queen Sansa and The North still want and need.
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:13 AM
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I have my complaints about the season but so much of the complaining I hear from others seems to be grounded in a different understanding of Westeros and the story as told. This is another example. I've seen countless complaints online about Jon being sent to join the Night's Watch again with the premise being the Night King and White Walkers are defeated so there is no need for the Nights Watch. Um... true he and his army were defeated but that has nothing to do with at the time centuries of history of Westeros and the Night Watch. Few in Westeros believed the old stories of wights and evil beings beyond the wall. Even in Winterfell it was mostly fairly harmless stories to tell children. The real threat was the wildlings and thus the primary responsibility of the Nights Watch. Although there was a real reason for the creation of a magical wall and the Nights Watch based upon the Night King and White Walkers, it had all mostly been lost to time for the average common people. The Nights Watch was where you sent criminals, bastards, or those inconvenient and disappointing 3rd sons who you wanted out of the castle. That's a function that I'm assuming even Queen Sansa and The North still want and need.
But the wildlings aren't a threat now. They are allies with the North. Jon would never let Sansa make them enemies again. So who are the Night's Watch protecting the North from?
  #229  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:14 AM
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What's so special about the North where they get to have their own Kingdom and nobody else does?

Perk for having to wear lots of fur?

Because it's a tradition? So? I thought they were rewriting the rules of how everything worked there.
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:15 AM
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seems the Night's Watch might be partly based on the French Foreign legion who take people with all kinds of past problems. They take people from anywhere , not just France .
  #231  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:16 AM
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He was a representative of the Maesters ?
He isn't exactly qualified to represent them. He didn't even finish his apprenticeship. If they have sent a representative, it would probably be some old guy with a very long chain.
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  #232  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:20 AM
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But as people stated above Sam also is from the family Tarly and he is the oldest son still living.
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:21 AM
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But the wildlings aren't a threat now. They are allies with the North. Jon would never let Sansa make them enemies again. So who are the Night's Watch protecting the North from?
The Wildlings temporarily allied with Jon to fight the White Walkers. They weren't pacified or "brought into the fold". They never bent the knee to anyone and don't plan to follow any southron kings in the future. Chances are they'll start raiding the North again soon enough.
  #234  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:22 AM
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Bronn makes sense for master of coin because the Reach is the richest part of Westeros now that the mines of Casterly Rock have been tapped out. Thus as lord of the part of the kingdom that will be contributing the most money he has the best incentive to spend it well.
I hate that Bronn got his castle, and especially hate that he got to the small council. But I suppose that this does make some kind of sense to have a...I guess...selfish miser-type, not sure how to word what I'm thinking there...but he knows the value of a buck. Like he said to someone at the meeting, if you spend it all there won't be any left; which is stupidly obvious but a step up from the likes of Bobby B and Littlefinger, apparently.

As to what Sam was doing at the Kingsmoot or whatever we call that...if the Tarly house is a vassal of Highgarden, at that point Highgarden was vacant, right? It hadn't yet been bequeathed to Bronn. So he might have been there as a representative for that area due to the vacancy of the higher lord?

The biggest thing that didn't make sense to me was indeed Sansa's declaration that the North would stay independent and everyone else just shrugging. Dorne especially, but it's not called the "Seven Kingdoms" for nothing. They should all want independence in that case. If they'd just added an extra 30 seconds or so for Sansa to explain something like "we fought the army of the dead and WON, with NO HELP from the southron kingdoms. We will do it again if we must, and you're free to sit down here minding your own business again. But if we are to be on our own, we will be on our own." Adding something like that to her declaration would give a little more justification to the other kingdoms than "hey little brother, I'm gonna go be a queen, kthxbye." Also unclear why the North wouldn't follow a Stark king. It would have to be less about who is king and more about being failed by the idea of being united with other regions for common defense, etc.

EDIT: The Vale helped actually, I guess...but only a little? Not the cavalry? <shrug>

Last edited by troub; 05-20-2019 at 10:26 AM.
  #235  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:22 AM
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Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but I thought for sure the dragon was going to blast Jon.

Then I remembered the dragon's name. Drogon.

So, if we are to assume Drogon has some qualities of Khal Drogo, it makes sense for the dragon to destroy what ultimately killed his Moon and Stars, the Iron Throne (and why wasn't Jon singed at least, standing that close to the flame?) and take off with her dead body.

Have we figured out what happened to Arya's horse?

Last edited by ivylass; 05-20-2019 at 10:23 AM.
  #236  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:29 AM
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Have we figured out what happened to Arya's horse?
probably taken by the Dothraki . Or maybe it became dinner?
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:30 AM
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According to Clarke she's been getting notes on how to play certain scenes in every season and she did not understand why until she read the script for the last season. So this was obviously planned from the start and probably one of the main things Martin told them about the ending. That doesn't mean it wasn't rushed and poorly written.
  #238  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:31 AM
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Speaking of Brienne, I was really happy with where she ended up. I would have been really ticked off if the last we saw of her was standing in the rain bawling about Jaime. Now she's in a respected position and she's still honoring her oath to Catelyn by watching over one of her children.
I was expecting her to follow Sansa. But being commander of the king's guard means permanent celibacy.

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Also, with the Dothraki and Unsullied leaving Westeros, why does anyone care about the Jon compromise? If he wants to go back south and travel around, who's going to care?
He's a Stark. He was sentenced and accepted the sentence. He won't move. But anyway, he doesn't look like if has any desire to go back "in the world".


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I think the default assumption is that when King Bran dies there will be a lot of political manuevering and perhaps even another civil war to replace him.
How long did the previous three eyed raven live? Centuries? Thousands of years? There won't be a need for a new king for a very, very, long time. He'll probably be assassinated before he dies of old age.
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  #239  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:32 AM
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But the wildlings aren't a threat now. They are allies with the North. Jon would never let Sansa make them enemies again. So who are the Night's Watch protecting the North from?
DrCube responded but the one thing I would add is regardless of the legitimacy of the threat, it still benefits the nobles of Westeros to have an option for disposing of criminals, bastards, and those inconvenient 3rd sons by sending them to The Wall. The show made a good point of everyone laughing at Sam for his democracy idea and that alone should remind that in Westeros it's still not exactly an equal rights for all society. And The Wall and the Nights Watch has been a conduit for solving uncomfortable situations for the houses for centuries. They're not going to just let that go.
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  #240  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:34 AM
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That was there, but before that was a long promo for multiple series.
First a long promo for Watchmen, then a long promo for Westworld. (The one with Aaron Paul and the futuristic criminals was WW, and it looks awesome!)

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I still don't see how any of the episode titles were in any way spoilery while out of context.
Agreed. WTF?

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I was expecting her to follow Sansa. But being commander of the king's guard means permanent celibacy.
Unmarried, not celibacy. Similar reforms are being enacted in the Night's Watch, under the careful guidance of Sam the Horny. (He's not there, but he's the one who first proposed that loophole to Jon.)

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 05-20-2019 at 10:37 AM.
  #241  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:35 AM
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I am wondering what happens to what's left of the Dothraki in Wetseros. Grey Worm leads the Unsullied but they only saw Dany as their leader and would not take kindly to her being killed.
We see the Dothrakis going towards the ships too during the episode. I would assume them to go back to their sea of grass, to resume pillaging, after their short touristic tour of Westeros.
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  #242  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:39 AM
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I got a giggle at Jon heading up to try to talk with Dany. All those Dothraki screamers with their blood lust up, and he just shoves his way through, nudging 1,000-lb war horses aside all nonchalantly.

Reminded me of the old SNL skit about I.T. Guy.

"Move!!"

(Absolutely lost it at Brienne penning Jayme's deeds. Very graceful of her.)
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  #243  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:42 AM
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The Nights Watch was where you sent criminals, bastards, or those inconvenient and disappointing 3rd sons who you wanted out of the castle. That's a function that I'm assuming even Queen Sansa and The North still want and need.
Yes, but Jon already joined the Nights Watch once...and then subsequently left it. He vowed to serve his Queen....and then subsequently slayed her. So he's not exactly known for keeping his word.

And Jon isn't a bastard son anymore, he's now a real danger to all the councilmen as he's not only a proven Kingslayer but a legitimate claimant to the Iron Throne. So sending him to the NW and expecting him to maintain his vow, on his honor, makes no sense, except to conveniently keep him alive for the fans.

Besides, as far as their function goes, as you say, the Nights Watchmen used to keep the Wildings in check, and they had a very hostile relationship. In fact his brothers murdered Jon after he allied with them. But that was then, and this is now. The Wildings assisted the North in defeating the Night King, and then peacefully returned to their homes.

So, if the Night King is dead, if the White Walkers are dead, and if the Wildings are no longer their enemy, what exactly is the Night Watch's purpose?

The last glimpse we have of Jon is him going through the tunnel and walking amidst the Wildings and his friend, Tormund, who's already indicated that he'd make a great King. What do you make of that?
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  #244  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:42 AM
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We see the Dothrakis going towards the ships too during the episode. I would assume them to go back to their sea of grass, to resume pillaging, after their short touristic tour of Westeros.
If anybody had any sense at all they'd let those boats get halfway to Essos then sink them. Do the whole planet a favor.

Ghost got his skritches, so that part of me is happy. The rest was grossly unsatisfying.
  #245  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:44 AM
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It's been mentioned that Dorne should have been up in arms about the North seceding, but Yara should have taken objection to that too--the primary condition of her support of Dany's cause was that Dany promised to recognize Yara as queen of an independent Iron Islands. There is absolutely no reason she would have rolled over and accepted fealty to the wheelchair throne with no concessions.
  #246  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:48 AM
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In the scene where Tyrion slowly wakes up in the cell, before being taken to the Kingsmoot. To me, his eyes looked very strange to begin with: white, cloudy, unfocused for what seemed like a long time, okay, actually probably just a handful of seconds, but it felt long, before they looked normal.

To the point I was wondering if Tyrion was warging.

Did anyone else see it like this?

Last edited by StarvingButStrong; 05-20-2019 at 10:51 AM.
  #247  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:54 AM
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In the scene where Tyrion slowly wakes up in the cell, before being taken to the Kingsmoot. To me, his eyes looked very strange to begin with: white, cloudy, unfocused for what seemed like a long time, okay, actually probably just a handful of seconds, but it felt long, before they looked normal.

To the point I was wondering if Tyrion was warging.

Did anyone else see it like this?
I just wondered why we were wasting so much time watching Tyrion laying on the floor. If they were going for something specific in the scene, they never followed through.
  #248  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:56 AM
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Huh. The parts everyone else really liked were some of my least favorite parts, while some other parts I liked a lot more than other folks did.

The "Dany has dragon wings" shot was breathtakingly cool, but I found it really jarring. This isn't a show that traffics in self-conscious trick cinematography, and while that's a fine thing to do in other shows, it just didn't match the show's aesthetic for me. It was also a little on-the-nose: "Hey, didja notice that Dany has gone full dragon?"

I also wasn't a big fan of the visual of burning the throne. The combination of real effects and CG effects looked really weird to me, almost like something out of a B movie.

The quick council decision was a little weird, but as I think about it I'm grudgingly okay with it. As I understand the situation:
1) There are a couple of foreign armies camped out at King's Landing. They're super pissed about Dany, but they also don't know the landscape.
2) There's the Iron Fleet outside the city. They're pissed about Dany, but also not enormous fans of the foreign armies.
3) There's an army of Northmen outside the city. They're pissed about Jon being captive, and not enormous fans either of the Iron Fleet or the foreign armies.
4) There are representatives from the other five kingdoms. Their armies aren't there, but they have armies back home ready to throw down.

Everybody recognizes that they're sitting on a powder keg, and that a wrong move could blow everything up, leading to new stages and new fronts in the war. King's Landing provides a pretty powerful demonstration of how badly that can go.

So Grey Worm brings Tyrion into this council, and GW is pissed, but maybe he sees that without Dany there's a good chance the Unsullied won't survive a coming war. If he kills Jon, the Northmen, under Sansa's command, WILL have their war. (He may have made this calculation earlier, explaining why Jon survived the Unsullied). What he really wants is for these barbarian motherfuckers whose land he's found himself in to come up with a political solution that means he can leave with honor intact.

And when Tyrion comes forward, at first GW is like, "Shut up, asshole, you betrayed the queen," but then Tyrion starts talking, and the barbarian council is listening, and he's like, maybe Tyrion's going to figure out a way we don't need to go to war.

And the Westeros council is thinking basically the same thing, and they may realize that almost any choice of new monarch is going to lead to more factional war. But then Bran is offered, and it's such a weird, out-of-left-field choice that they listen to Tyrion's explanation. It's basically a new way to imagine the monarchy, having someone with literally zero personal ambition in control, and they're like, fuck it, we agree now so that we don't have war with the Unsullied, and if Bran is awful we rebel, that's kind of what we do.

I agree that the pacing was pretty weird for this scene, and it could've used a lot more tension (maybe it should've been an entire episode of secret meetings and betrayals and negotiations). But ultimately, I think folks' actions are reasonable here: they found maybe the only way out of the incipient war that they could, in Bran's coronation.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 05-20-2019 at 10:56 AM.
  #249  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:59 AM
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But as people stated above Sam also is from the family Tarly and he is the oldest son still living.
But once again, Tarly is just a vassal, not on par with the lords of Dorne, Highgarden, Winterfell, etc...
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  #250  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:59 AM
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Y
So, if the Night King is dead, if the White Walkers are dead, and if the Wildings are no longer their enemy, what exactly is the Night Watch's purpose?
The Wildings are no longer an enemy, for now. Who knows a few decades from now. I could make an argument that it is better to begin replacing the deal brothers of the Night Watch and re-building the various castles on The Wall now vs. waiting until there is some future need should new or returning threats arise but the decision to send Jon there is not based upon that need. It is completely irrelevant in my opinion.

The Nights Watch has provided the nobles a societal outlet for criminals you can't execute without consequences, bastards you can't just kill (unless you're Ceresi), and disappointing 2nd, 3rd, and so on sons. That's been the benefit of the Nights Watch for 100s and 100s of years to the nobles. Wildings were really no real threat beyond The North but they made an excellent justification for having a Nights Watch where you can send those undesirables you can't get rid of easily. And by the end of the story it was a perfectly consistent option for the nobles in the position of having to solve for "What to do with Jon but still hold together Westeros".

I think the best example we have from the show is Aemon Targaryen. He was seen as a potential heir to the throne but he refused it and joined the Night's Watch because it was politically expedient for all involved.
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