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Old 05-05-2019, 02:08 PM
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Atheists , how could God prove to you he exists?


to start I am pretty much an agnostic.

Let's say someone shows up at your door and says he's God and wants to prove it.

Then he says "I can snap my fingers and any car you want will appear right here. In fact I can bring any 5 cars of any cost - Mercedes, Rolls Royce, Lambo, Ferrari , etc. , or if you prefer I will give you $1 million in cash." and then does which one you pick.

Would you think this person is God or would you think there is some kind of trick going on? To me that would prove this person is God. What about you?
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:13 PM
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Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:13 PM
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Transport me back in time so I can watch my younger self doing something only I know. Transport me around the universe without speed of light limitations. Raise someone from the dead, my choosing.

Last edited by rsat3acr; 05-05-2019 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:14 PM
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That person would have a lot of power, money, or good magic tricks. I see no reason to believe he is a god, as the term is usually understood. Did he create the universe? Is he all-knowing? Is he immortal? Is he divine?
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:15 PM
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Transport me back in time so I can watch my younger self doing something only I know. Transport me around the universe without speed of light limitations. Raise someone from the dead, my choosing.
I thought about using those type examples too.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:18 PM
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Several possibilities:

1) I'm hallucinating.

2) I'm the target of a very elaborate prank, or other form of deceit.

3) I'm being addressed by a powerful entity that is not actually omnipotent and omniscient, but is very powerful and knowledgeable just the same.

4) I'm being addressed by an omnipotent, omniscient deity.

1 or 2 sound a lot more likely than 3 and 4, logically speaking; and even 3 seems a lot more likely than 4.

Something like this analysis can be used for pretty much every single claim of supernatural power/events.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:19 PM
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So that is what Coyote is up to now..

Or to just mention it: what God are we talking there?

And.. I'm agnostic myself with a bit of Deism tossed in, to me it would be a persistence of he/she/it demonstrating those feats to any one coming to check those powers and not making a disappearing act when researches come to take a look behind the curtain.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 05-05-2019 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:21 PM
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lots of regular people can give you $1 million but not at the snap of a finger and make it appear out of thin air , same for the cars.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:26 PM
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lots of regular people can give you $1 million but not at the snap of a finger and make it appear out of thin air , same for the cars.
Yeah, but usually in cases like that we get a trickster move like the leprechauns, as soon one accepts it turns into something else that discredits the believer in the eyes of others, or the cars turn into a Gremlin, a Pinto, and a Yugo.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 05-05-2019 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:34 PM
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I’ve just typed a list of 20 completely random words into the notepad app on my phone. If I get a DM in the next 24 hours listing all those words I will immediately convert to the sender’s religion.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:40 PM
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If a person who claims to be God tries to prove it by working miracles, that could mean they are just an alien with sufficiently advanced technology attempting to use the 'god gambit'.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:57 PM
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He can just snap his fingers and make me sincerely believe that he's God. That would convince me for sure.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:58 PM
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He can just snap his fingers and make me sincerely believe that he's God. That would convince me for sure.
So much for free will.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:02 PM
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Is the intent of this thread:

"See, there's no proof you atheists would take to prove God exists! You're closed minded! You could pick apart anything! You ignore the proof of God you already see!"

Or is it

"If someone came to you with apparent supernatural powers, how would you go about determining if they were God, some other supernatural entity, aliens with technology indistinguishable from magic, you're in the Matrix and the controllers are screwing with you, etc.?"

Because those are fairly different debates. It might help to identify which one you're after to get the answers you want.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:02 PM
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Yes, the person could have just proven themselves to be a god. Alternately, they could have just proven the existence of advanced aliens, or advanced human time-travelers. Or wizards. Or I could be going batshit insane, or be asleep. Extraordinary claims, extraordinary proof.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:09 PM
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I don't think atheists are close minded. Does not bother me if people are atheist.

To me ,if you say the person with supernatural powers could be an alien to me that's just giving a different name for God.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:11 PM
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If a person who claims to be God tries to prove it by working miracles, that could mean they are just an alien with sufficiently advanced technology attempting to use the 'god gambit'.
I realize the OP was addressed to atheists; but I just wanted to mention that, as I understand it, the Bible contains a nifty story where Moses tries to impress Pharaoh with some wonder-worker stuff ó turning a stick into a serpent, turning water into blood, raining frogs down from on high ó and, each time, the Pharaoh just keeps on keeping on once his magicians do likewise with their enchantments, be it serpents or blood or frogs upon the land of Egypt.

Thatís not exactly a Mercedes and a Ferrari and a million in cash, but the idea sure seems to be the same: what, exactly, would such a feat prove?
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:15 PM
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I don't think atheists are close minded. Does not bother me if people are atheist.

To me ,if you say the person with supernatural powers could be an alien to me that's just giving a different name for God.
To that alien, you're an alien. Are you this God person I've heard so much about?
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:19 PM
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I realize the OP was addressed to atheists; but I just wanted to mention that, as I understand it, the Bible contains a nifty story where Moses tries to impress Pharaoh with some wonder-worker stuff ó turning a stick into a serpent, turning water into blood, raining frogs down from on high ó and, each time, the Pharaoh just keeps on keeping on once his magicians do likewise with their enchantments, be it serpents or blood or frogs upon the land of Egypt.

Thatís not exactly a Mercedes and a Ferrari and a million in cash, but the idea sure seems to be the same: what, exactly, would such a feat prove?
I don't think the Bible says the Pharaoh did the same things as Moses for the 10 plagues. Are you thinking of the scene in the movie the ten commandments?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:21 PM
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Yes, the person could have just proven themselves to be a god. Alternately, they could have just proven the existence of advanced aliens, or advanced human time-travelers. Or wizards. Or I could be going batshit insane, or be asleep. Extraordinary claims, extraordinary proof.
If it's an alien claiming to be God, you could ask about his starship.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:21 PM
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I realize the OP was addressed to atheists; but I just wanted to mention that, as I understand it, the Bible contains a nifty story where Moses tries to impress Pharaoh with some wonder-worker stuff ó turning a stick into a serpent, turning water into blood, raining frogs down from on high ó and, each time, the Pharaoh just keeps on keeping on once his magicians do likewise with their enchantments, be it serpents or blood or frogs upon the land of Egypt.
James 'The Amazing' Randi performs similar magic to discredit charlatans. Perhaps Pharaoh was simply being a rational skeptic.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:29 PM
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I don't think the Bible says the Pharaoh did the same things as Moses for the 10 plagues.
I didn’t say it was Pharaoh; I said it was magicians. “And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt”, says Exodus 8:7; it’s much like how Exodus 7 has a bit about how “the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments”, and so on: “Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents”.

Don’t just try to remember it; but maybe read it and tell me what you find, if you like. I’d also recommend Deuteronomy 13, which is a personal favorite of mine.

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Old 05-05-2019, 03:33 PM
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There's so much random violence, evil, pain, etc. in the world that I would want God to provide a believable answer as to why it happens. None of this "you aren't meant to know my ways" stuff. I want an answer that makes sense to me. Why dies a child get brain cancer and die, and the resulting grief causes the parents to turn to alcohol and divorce? Why do children get molested by priests in churches that supposedly convey His message (in the Christian case), and those children are so filled with shame that they turn to drugs and suicide? Why does prosperity and despair seem to be spread equally across believers and non-believers? Why does almost every religion's followers seem to violently disagree with followers of other beliefs? Answers to those are the kinds of things that would make me consider that someone might actually be God.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:39 PM
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First, define "God".

If whoever showed up at the door claimed to be Thor, a few tricks with the hammer and some weather control might work. And if whoever showed up were able to actually resurrect dead people, I'd certainly be convinced they were something.

But if you mean The One And Only All-Knowing All-Powerful Creator Of the Universe: that's another matter. Couldn't such a being have simply created me such that I believed in Its existence? That would be a whole lot simpler, as well as more effective, than doing tricks, even raising-from-the-dead level tricks. (And yes, I've heard of the free-will argument. That'd have to be a whole other thread.)

I'll make a suggestion for how to convince me that the supposed deity is some sort of deity, however:

Create genuine lasting peace in the Middle East, without killing, rendering insensate, or removing the people living there now.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:47 PM
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Iíve just typed a list of 20 completely random words into the notepad app on my phone. If I get a DM in the next 24 hours listing all those words I will immediately convert to the senderís religion.
The fifth word is "
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:50 PM
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The traditional Christian God is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent. So I throw the ball to him and ask him to figure out what evidence would irrefutably convince me he is God and then provide that evidence to me.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:51 PM
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There's so much random violence, evil, pain, etc. in the world that I would want God to provide a believable answer as to why it happens. None of this "you aren't meant to know my ways" stuff. I want an answer that makes sense to me. Why dies a child get brain cancer and die, and the resulting grief causes the parents to turn to alcohol and divorce? Why do children get molested by priests in churches that supposedly convey His message (in the Christian case), and those children are so filled with shame that they turn to drugs and suicide? Why does prosperity and despair seem to be spread equally across believers and non-believers? Why does almost every religion's followers seem to violently disagree with followers of other beliefs? Answers to those are the kinds of things that would make me consider that someone might actually be God.
How many people "violently" disagree with other religions? Yes they disagree but it's rare for that to resort to violence. Yes terrorists are out there but they are a very very small minority.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:54 PM
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If some god (whatever his name, Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin) wanted to convince me of his existence, he should start with this laundry list:
  • Stop all wars
  • Eliminate all famines
  • Stop killing foreigners like you did in the bible
  • Remove threats from tsunamis and collisions with outer-space bodies
  • Wipe out all student loans and make college free for everyone
  • Make chocolate drops fall from heaven like manna
  • Free beer
That should do it (nothing less), and I'm A Believer.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:54 PM
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If he/ she/ it’s finger-snapping put an end to all human suffering I’d be happy to call him/ her/ it “God.”



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Old 05-05-2019, 03:56 PM
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Iíve just typed a list of 20 completely random words into the notepad app on my phone. If I get a DM in the next 24 hours listing all those words I will immediately convert to the senderís religion.
No you won't. You'll assume you've been hacked.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:58 PM
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Yes, the person could have just proven themselves to be a god. Alternately, they could have just proven the existence of advanced aliens, or advanced human time-travelers. Or wizards. Or I could be going batshit insane, or be asleep. Extraordinary claims, extraordinary proof.
Yes, if all we're talking about is apparently god-like properties, then the reasonable conclusion is that it's an alien, possibly one of the aliens that created the simulated universe that we live in.

If the properties of the god-like creature resemble any of the entities portrayed in human religions, that just implies an alien with a sense of humor.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:06 PM
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To me ,if you say the person with supernatural powers could be an alien to me that's just giving a different name for God.

See, for me, capital-G God implies the creator of the universe. So supernatural powers, alien or otherwise, does not automatically imply "the person who used supernatural powers to create the universe." Would you assume a lamp genie--if you should find one--to be God?



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If it's an alien claiming to be God, you could ask about his starship.

What does God need with a starship?
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:07 PM
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If some god (whatever his name, Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin) wanted to convince me of his existence, he should start with this laundry list:
  • Stop all wars
  • Eliminate all famines
  • Stop killing foreigners like you did in the bible
  • Remove threats from tsunamis and collisions with outer-space bodies
  • Wipe out all student loans and make college free for everyone
  • Make chocolate drops fall from heaven like manna
  • Free beer
That should do it (nothing less), and I'm A Believer.
You should watch the Twilight zone episode "To Serve Man" That one covers the first 4 on your list.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:14 PM
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Of course, given my skepticism, why would god go to the trouble of producing the masses of convincing evidence that would be required to manipulate my neurons indirectly? She could just manipulate my neurons directly into a mental state of unquestioning belief.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:38 PM
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How many people "violently" disagree with other religions? Yes they disagree but it's rare for that to resort to violence. Yes terrorists are out there but they are a very very small minority.
Look back through history. You can find endless examples of followers of one religion killing the followers of another religion. The Holocaust. The Crusades. ISIS. The Irish Catholics and Protestants. And so on and so on.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:43 PM
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I don't think atheists are close minded. Does not bother me if people are atheist.

To me ,if you say the person with supernatural powers could be an alien to me that's just giving a different name for God.
What are 'supernatural powers' anyway? AFAICT there is no such thing as 'supernatural'. Only the natural exists but we understand very little of nature. What people mistakenly call 'supernatural' are merely natural phenomena that we can not yet understand or explain.

For example, ghosts. If ghosts exist then they are surely an unexplained natural phenomenon. What purpose does the idea of supernatural serve?
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:48 PM
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Incidentally, regarding the Bible, why do people refer to "Pharaoh" instead of "the Pharaoh"? It's like it was his name instead of a title.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:56 PM
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Incidentally, regarding the Bible, why do people refer to "Pharaoh" instead of "the Pharaoh"? It's like it was his name instead of a title.
That's the way the King James refers to him, so people will have picked it up from what's written there. The question is why did the KJV authors write it that way.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:59 PM
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How many people "violently" disagree with other religions? Yes they disagree but it's rare for that to resort to violence. Yes terrorists are out there but they are a very very small minority.
Surely you don't really believe this. I wish it was rare, but it is not, not now and not in the past.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:00 PM
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As an atheist I await first, a definition of what gods we are talking about and a clear description of what they are and what they can do. Only then can we discuss what would suffice as evidence for their existence and that evidence must not be better explained by existing, known forces or phenomena.

This is something I've learned to accept over many, many years. No meaningful discussion on gods can ever be had without the believers first defining what their understanding of their gods actually is. (and that understanding is often rather tenuous and woolly to say the least).
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:01 PM
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That's the way the King James refers to him, so people will have picked it up from what's written there. The question is why did the KJV authors write it that way.
I figure it's because they were Russians and habitually dropped English articles all the time.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:02 PM
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He can just snap his fingers and make me sincerely believe that he's God. That would convince me for sure.
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So much for free will.
OK, so here's the experiment: Out of my free will, I am GIVING GOD PERMISSION TO DO THIS. Go for it! I'll no doubt let you know if "He" does.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:07 PM
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This is something I've learned to accept over many, many years. No meaningful discussion on gods can ever be had without the believers first defining what their understanding of their gods actually is. (and that understanding is often rather tenuous and woolly to say the least).
Has a believer ever satisfactorily defined their 'God' to you? If so, can you share that definition? Because it'd be awesome to hear what someone came up with.

If no one ever has defined it, does it follow that you've never had a meaningful discussion about god(s)?
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:10 PM
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The traditional Christian God is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent. So I throw the ball to him and ask him to figure out what evidence would irrefutably convince me he is God and then provide that evidence to me.
I like that
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:18 PM
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Has a believer ever satisfactorily defined their 'God' to you?
nope, not in a way that makes any sense to me or provides any basis for a testable claim.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:19 PM
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Do some of the Jesus stunts from the book to warm up, then make Twitter and all historical references to it disappear. Have Sofia Vergara show up at my house showered and shaved with a couple of Quaaludes and a six-pack. Then blot out the sun the next day, cause it'd all be downhill from there after Sofia, plus I'd wanna go straight to heaven now that I know it's real.

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Old 05-05-2019, 05:20 PM
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I'm actually a really gullible person. It wouldn't take that much for someone to convince me they were a supernatural deity. A parlor trick probably wouldn't be enough, but an instant deposit of millions of dollars into my bank account would.

My agnosticism isn't the result of me being unusually skeptical. I just have not encountered any compelling evidence. If all of a sudden a big booming voice said, "I am your lord! BOW DOWN BEFORE ME!", I would be the first to drop down to my knees. But I'm not going to drop down to my knees based on a fairy tale.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:24 PM
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No you won't. You'll assume you've been hacked.
The odds of someone being able to hack my phone in less than 24 hours are so remote that Iíd happily ascribe it to divine inspiration.

Given a sufficiently skeptical outlook, thereís no evidence that could prove God exists. We all set our burden of proof somewhere. This is where I set mine.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:25 PM
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That should do it (nothing less), and I'm A Believer.
Fixed your link. I approve of your choice of versions.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:29 PM
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I'm actually a really gullible person. It wouldn't take that much for someone to convince me they were a supernatural deity. A parlor trick probably wouldn't be enough, but an instant deposit of millions of dollars into my bank account would.

My agnosticism isn't the result of me being unusually skeptical. I just have not encountered any compelling evidence. If all of a sudden a big booming voice said, "I am your lord! BOW DOWN BEFORE ME!", I would be the first to drop down to my knees. But I'm not going to drop down to my knees based on a fairy tale.
Don't do it if the big booming voice says "NOAH!"
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